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RE: 4 player E-mail: AAR - 4/14/2016 9:41:30 PM   
Mayhemizer_slith


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Status: offline 		I agree, let's wait until we are sure.

If the current result is correct, I believe I need to use 4 points to decrease AA fire to NE and remaining points used to increase damage gives me result X, which I target to the ship that is carrying HQ Gort.

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Post #: 91
RE: 4 player E-mail: AAR - 4/14/2016 9:41:46 PM   
AllenK


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Status: offline 		It would seem that using the Poles to initiate combat meant the Germans were not surprised. If the German's are not surprised, then the rest of the results are probably implemented correctly.

What happens if you go back to your auto-saves (Phasing Player Choose Sea Area, or something like that) and initiate combat with a CW ship or plane? Input the same search rolls and what happens regarding surprise points?

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 92
RE: 4 player E-mail: AAR - 4/14/2016 9:42:26 PM   
Mayhemizer_slith


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Status: offline 		I believe Polish being in the sea area is the reason.

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Post #: 93
RE: 4 player E-mail: AAR - 4/14/2016 9:44:43 PM   
AllenK


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Status: offline 		I think it's using them to initiate combat, rather than simply being there but re-running from the auto-save would clarify that.

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Post #: 94
RE: 4 player E-mail: AAR - 4/14/2016 9:59:22 PM   
brian brian

 

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Status: offline 		A good rules lawyers question, it would turn on whether "involved" brings in all units in the sea area, or only units in boxes in the actual combat round. Activating with the Polish ship adds a further wrinkle to the question.

I can't help you with the answer definitively but my gut feeling would be that 'involved' brings in all units in the sea area, before search dice include or exclude boxes.

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Post #: 95
RE: 4 player E-mail: AAR - 4/15/2016 3:15:49 AM   
Courtenay


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Status: offline 		It is my understanding, which may be wrong, that simply having the Poles in the sea area negates surprise. The fact that they initiated the combat makes no difference.

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Post #: 96
RE: 4 player E-mail: AAR - 4/15/2016 6:32:47 AM   
Centuur


Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline 		Here is RAW on surprise:

If a port attack or a naval combat at sea only involves units controlled
by major powers declaring war, and the major powers they are
declaring war on, the surprised units always get 0 surprise points. The
attacking major powers get the normal number (this will increase the
number of net surprise points the attacker can spend, if there is any
combat).

That leaves the question: what is naval combat. Here is RAW again:

11.5 Naval combat
11.5.1 Combat sequence
After you have made all your naval moves, you can, if you wish,
initiate naval combat. A side can only try to initiate combat once in
each sea area each naval combat step (there can be any number of
interception combat attempts during naval movement).
You can’t try to initiate naval combat at all if you chose a land or pass
action. However, your units can take part in any combat that another
major power initiates.
Choose a sea area and initiate a combat there. You can only choose an
area if it contains at least one unit from each side that are at war with
each other (etc. etc. etc.).

Therefore: Germany is not surprised in the North Sea, since there are Polish ships in the sea area with which they are at war. The search rolls are part of naval combat...

< Message edited by Centuur -- 4/15/2016 6:36:14 AM >

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Post #: 97
RE: 4 player E-mail: AAR - 4/15/2016 6:47:44 AM   
warspite1


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Status: offline 		15.1 Surprise Effects ….naval combat at sea only involves units controlled by major powers declaring war, and the major powers they are declaring war on, the surprised units always get 0 surprise points.


I follow your logic, but is that not negated by this? The Poles are controlled by the CW.

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Post #: 98
RE: 4 player E-mail: AAR - 4/15/2016 7:04:27 AM   
warspite1


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Status: offline 		Anyway, I've sent an e-mail to Harry (hopefully he will provide a definitive answer).

Part of me hopes the Allies interpretation is right - but mostly I hope the game has been coded as per the rules. Bad news for the Allies - but good for MWIF

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Post #: 99
RE: 4 player E-mail: AAR - 4/15/2016 11:14:54 AM   
quiritus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Anyway, I've sent an e-mail to Harry (hopefully he will provide a definitive answer).

Part of me hopes the Allies interpretation is right - but mostly I hope the game has been coded as per the rules. Bad news for the Allies - but good for MWIF

i think here the trouble is poland initiate combat not UK: this is a poland action, as poland is not conquered, so are poland ship not yet CW, to wich Royal navy partecipate.

and as you have direct line with harry, can i send a pm with same Raw question that every time are discussed in our board game group?

< Message edited by quiritus -- 4/15/2016 11:18:01 AM >

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Post #: 100
RE: 4 player E-mail: AAR - 4/15/2016 11:50:01 AM   
AlbertN

 

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Status: offline 		Since Germany is already at war with Poland; it's pretty clear there is no surprise if at sea there are Poland units.
It was the same before for the Poland airplanes "surprising" German forces and benefitting of that bonus during ground strike / support (and not being intercepted).

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Post #: 101
RE: 4 player E-mail: AAR - 4/15/2016 1:56:41 PM   
brian brian

 

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Status: offline 		2nd sentence of Rule 15 says:

However, they are not surprised by a major power or minor country they are currently at war with.

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Post #: 102
RE: 4 player E-mail: AAR - 4/15/2016 3:46:04 PM   
Protagoras

 

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Status: offline 		It is a fine point being made here, and I am not enough of a rules guy on WIF to know. But it does make sense to me that if a power is in a sea zone with hostile units, they would not be likely to be surprised by another hostile power as they are already on high alert levels. SO in this case it makes sense that polish units in the area would have the germans on high alert.

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Post #: 103
RE: 4 player E-mail: AAR - 4/15/2016 5:29:35 PM   
warspite1


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From: England
Status: offline 		Okay I have a response from Harry.

yes I believe the presence of the Poles negate the CW benefit of surprise. to get surprise you can't include anyone currently at war. Another example is Italy and France go to war and a German sub ends in an italian port. If the CW declare war on italy they can't surprise the italian ships in that port because of teh german sub.

It would appear that 11.5.6 and 15.1 are trumped by the last sentence of 15 - and that what the main point at issue here.

I think that this settles it and that MWIF is coded correctly. Based on this I do not believe that the initial combat was a bug either. It would be incredibly gamey if the CW could initiate with the Poles but then, because they were outside the actual combat, the Germans are surprised.

Just to let people know, while there was still doubt on the outcome here, our Axis opponents were both willing to replay the phase Thanks guys - great sportsmanship. Sadly however, there is no need to replay and the CW must take their medicine.....

But hey, always look on the bright side of life as they say. At least Steve's programming has come through this testing situation with flying colours


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Post #: 104
RE: 4 player E-mail: AAR - 4/15/2016 5:49:53 PM   
Orm


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Status: offline 		Did you ask about the first round where the Poles were not in one of the boxes included in the combat? That is the case I've been arguing is a bug. Not when the Poles are.

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Post #: 105
RE: 4 player E-mail: AAR - 4/15/2016 5:58:11 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

Did you ask about the first round where the Poles were not in one of the boxes included in the combat? That is the case I've been arguing is a bug. Not when the Poles are.
warspite1

It was in the scenario I gave him. I laid out the rules section and the exact scenario from the start of the naval phase to where we ended. Although he has not picked up directly on it, I am taking his silence to mean that there is nothing wrong with what happened. In support of which is my comment above that if the last sentence of 15 is the key, then to have a situation where the Poles initiated combat, and yet do not trigger loss of surprise, then that seems a) unfair b) gamey and c) unrealistic.
In real life initiating combat is searching out the enemy or at least engaging when attacked - all of which alerts the Germans to an enemy presence and thus no surprise.

My 2 cents anyway



< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/15/2016 6:03:31 PM >

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Post #: 106
RE: 4 player E-mail: AAR - 4/15/2016 6:19:55 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

Did you ask about the first round where the Poles were not in one of the boxes included in the combat? That is the case I've been arguing is a bug. Not when the Poles are.
warspite1

It was in the scenario I gave him. I laid out the rules section and the exact scenario from the start of the naval phase to where we ended. Although he has not picked up directly on it, I am taking his silence to mean that there is nothing wrong with what happened. In support of which is my comment above that if the last sentence of 15 is the key, then to have a situation where the Poles initiated combat, and yet do not trigger loss of surprise, then that seems a) unfair b) gamey and c) unrealistic.
In real life initiating combat is searching out the enemy or at least engaging when attacked - all of which alerts the Germans to an enemy presence and thus no surprise.

My 2 cents anyway



I had a long reply here where I had an example that is truly gamey if the rule is as you suggest. But I have no interest, at the moment, for rule discussions. Lets move on and continue with the game and impulse.

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Post #: 107
RE: 4 player E-mail: AAR - 4/15/2016 6:23:25 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1



warspite1

Okay what are the Germans doing with their surprise points?


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/15/2016 6:24:39 PM >

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Post #: 108
RE: 4 player E-mail: AAR - 4/15/2016 6:27:57 PM   
AllenK


Posts: 7259
Joined: 2/17/2014
From: England
Status: offline 		I've just run a couple of tests. CW and Germany with ships in 4-box. First 2 tests, Polish CA in 0-box. Using the Allies 3, Axis 10 search result each time.

First test - Polish CA initates combat. Only 4-box included. Surprise points 7
Second test - CW CA initiates combat. Only 4-box included. Surprise points 7
Third test - No Polish ships in North Sea. Only 4-box included. Surprise points 13

As far as MWiF goes, the mere presence in a sea zone of Polish ships, who Germany is already at war with, negates any surprise on Germany following the DoW by CW. This seems to concur with what Harry has advised.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 109
RE: 4 player E-mail: AAR - 4/15/2016 6:32:54 PM   
AllenK


Posts: 7259
Joined: 2/17/2014
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1



warspite1

Okay what are the Germans doing with their surprise points?


quote:

If the current result is correct, I believe I need to use 4 points to decrease AA fire to NE and remaining points used to increase damage gives me result X, which I target to the ship that is carrying HQ Gort.



Mayhemizer's earlier response.

"If the current result is correct, I believe I need to use 4 points to decrease AA fire to NE and remaining points used to increase damage gives me result X, which I target to the ship that is carrying HQ Gort."

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 110
RE: 4 player E-mail: AAR - 4/15/2016 6:34:39 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AllenK

I've just run a couple of tests. CW and Germany with ships in 4-box. First 2 tests, Polish CA in 0-box. Using the Allies 3, Axis 10 search result each time.

First test - Polish CA initates combat. Only 4-box included. Surprise points 7
Second test - CW CA initiates combat. Only 4-box included. Surprise points 7
Third test - No Polish ships in North Sea. Only 4-box included. Surprise points 13

As far as MWiF goes, the mere presence in a sea zone of Polish ships, who Germany is already at war with, negates any surprise on Germany following the DoW by CW. This seems to concur with what Harry has advised.

Then would not that affect separate major powers as well? Japan DOW CW first? Could have major impact when US enters the war. Or Italy versus France and CW?

< Message edited by Orm -- 4/15/2016 6:37:00 PM >

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Post #: 111
RE: 4 player E-mail: AAR - 4/15/2016 6:39:23 PM   
AllenK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: AllenK

I've just run a couple of tests. CW and Germany with ships in 4-box. First 2 tests, Polish CA in 0-box. Using the Allies 3, Axis 10 search result each time.

First test - Polish CA initates combat. Only 4-box included. Surprise points 7
Second test - CW CA initiates combat. Only 4-box included. Surprise points 7
Third test - No Polish ships in North Sea. Only 4-box included. Surprise points 13

As far as MWiF goes, the mere presence in a sea zone of Polish ships, who Germany is already at war with, negates any surprise on Germany following the DoW by CW. This seems to concur with what Harry has advised.

Then would not that affect separate major powers as well? Japan DOW CW first? Could have major impact when US enters the war. Or Italy versus France and CW?


It looks like very probably.

It would appear for naval combat, to take advantage of surprise, you need to make sure you don't have any ships already at war with the power you are about to DoW in the sea-zone.

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 112
RE: 4 player E-mail: AAR - 4/15/2016 6:42:18 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AllenK


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: AllenK

I've just run a couple of tests. CW and Germany with ships in 4-box. First 2 tests, Polish CA in 0-box. Using the Allies 3, Axis 10 search result each time.

First test - Polish CA initates combat. Only 4-box included. Surprise points 7
Second test - CW CA initiates combat. Only 4-box included. Surprise points 7
Third test - No Polish ships in North Sea. Only 4-box included. Surprise points 13

As far as MWiF goes, the mere presence in a sea zone of Polish ships, who Germany is already at war with, negates any surprise on Germany following the DoW by CW. This seems to concur with what Harry has advised.

Then would not that affect separate major powers as well? Japan DOW CW first? Could have major impact when US enters the war. Or Italy versus France and CW?


It looks like very probably.

It would appear for naval combat, to take advantage of surprise, you need to make sure you don't have any ships already at war with the power you are about to DoW in the sea-zone.

I think I had that situation with France at war with Italy and CW not. And I think the game handled it as I thought it would. So not this way. Maybe that needs testing. But that is for another thread.

Onwards with the game and away with the rules.

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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

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Post #: 113
RE: 4 player E-mail: AAR - 4/15/2016 6:44:03 PM   
Orm


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quote:

Okay what are the Germans doing with their surprise points?

Already answered.

quote:


Mayhemizer's earlier response.

"If the current result is correct, I believe I need to use 4 points to decrease AA fire to NE and remaining points used to increase damage gives me result X, which I target to the ship that is carrying HQ Gort."


_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 114
RE: 4 player E-mail: AAR - 4/15/2016 6:53:15 PM   
warspite1


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Status: offline 		The Queens are surrounded by the Royal Navy cruisers and they put up a storm of AA fire. There is no effect on the attackers other than to put them off their aim.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 115
RE: 4 player E-mail: AAR - 4/15/2016 6:55:24 PM   
warspite1


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Status: offline 		So what do peeps want to do?

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 116
RE: 4 player E-mail: AAR - 4/15/2016 6:58:41 PM   
Mayhemizer_slith


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Status: offline 		Axis stay.

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Post #: 117
RE: 4 player E-mail: AAR - 4/15/2016 7:01:26 PM   
AllenK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: AllenK


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: AllenK

I've just run a couple of tests. CW and Germany with ships in 4-box. First 2 tests, Polish CA in 0-box. Using the Allies 3, Axis 10 search result each time.

First test - Polish CA initates combat. Only 4-box included. Surprise points 7
Second test - CW CA initiates combat. Only 4-box included. Surprise points 7
Third test - No Polish ships in North Sea. Only 4-box included. Surprise points 13

As far as MWiF goes, the mere presence in a sea zone of Polish ships, who Germany is already at war with, negates any surprise on Germany following the DoW by CW. This seems to concur with what Harry has advised.

Then would not that affect separate major powers as well? Japan DOW CW first? Could have major impact when US enters the war. Or Italy versus France and CW?


It looks like very probably.

It would appear for naval combat, to take advantage of surprise, you need to make sure you don't have any ships already at war with the power you are about to DoW in the sea-zone.

I think I had that situation with France at war with Italy and CW not. And I think the game handled it as I thought it would. So not this way. Maybe that needs testing. But that is for another thread.

Onwards with the game and away with the rules.


Have just tested it. Italy at war with France and not CW. French ships in 0-box. CW and Italian ships in 4-box. Italy declares war on CW and initiates naval combat. Searches Axis 3, Allies 10. 4-box only included. Surprise points 7. Same as the previous tests.

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 118
RE: 4 player E-mail: AAR - 4/15/2016 7:05:05 PM   
Orm


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quote:

Have just tested it. Italy at war with France and not CW. French ships in 0-box. CW and Italian ships in 4-box. Italy declares war on CW and initiates naval combat. Searches Axis 3, Allies 10. 4-box only included. Surprise points 7. Same as the previous tests.


Awesome. Thank you.

Apparently we played it wrong for 20+ years including at a wifcon. About time to learn then.

_____________________________

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Post #: 119
RE: 4 player E-mail: AAR - 4/15/2016 7:05:25 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

So what do peeps want to do?

Allies stay.

Edit: And CW send out their 4 strength fighter to the 0 box.

< Message edited by Orm -- 4/15/2016 7:10:18 PM >

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Post #: 120
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