RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> The War Room >> RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics

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RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics - 4/17/2019 1:20:12 PM

spence

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quote:

What planes can fly ASW at night BBfanboy? I am not aware of any.

Don't seem to be any Allied planes that can fly the ASW mission at night either (radar or no radar).

(in reply to montesaurus)

Post #: 31

RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics - 4/17/2019 7:39:03 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

What planes can fly ASW at night BBfanboy? I am not aware of any.

Don't seem to be any Allied planes that can fly the ASW mission at night either (radar or no radar).

Well it should be modeled later in the game when air radar was available. (I don't know whether it is or not). The British conducted a vigorous night ASW campaign over the Bay of Biscay to interdict U-Boats leaving ports there or returning to them. Radar got the detection and the Leigh Light searchlight enabled them to spot and attack. The Leigh Light used a welding rod arc to create a brilliant beam that illuminated over a long range. I think the Sunderland patrol aircraft and probably Liberator bombers assigned to Coastal Command used it.

But the Pacific was different in that IJN subs were not using ports easily covered by Allied ASW aircraft at night, so it might have been left out of the game.

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(in reply to spence)

Post #: 32

RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics - 4/18/2019 2:17:07 AM

spence

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Japanese submarines sit un-attacked for days in Allied ports. Why exactly did Allied radar work in the Bay of Biscay but it didn't work in Allied port hexes in the Pacific? In late 1943 in a present PBEM there is a Japanese submarine sitting spotted in the port Madang. Mere destroyers on ASW don't seem to be able to find them. Just curious as to why radar equipped a/c at the airbase in that hex don't even get the option to conduct ASW OPs at night?

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 33

RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics - 4/18/2019 3:43:27 AM

Kull

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From: El Paso, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

But the Pacific was different in that IJN subs were not using ports easily covered by Allied ASW aircraft at night, so it might have been left out of the game.

Yep, the same sort of specialized ASW night ops implemented in a limited region directly south of the British Isles (with all the logistical benefits that implies) probably wouldn't translate to the Japanese-controlled Pacific. The map below highlights the scale of the problem:

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

AE-Japan Setup

AE-Allied Setup

Japan Air-Engine Plan

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 34

RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics - 4/18/2019 4:26:21 AM

spence

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quote:

Yep, the same sort of specialized ASW night ops implemented in a limited region directly south of the British Isles (with all the logistical benefits that implies) probably wouldn't translate to the Japanese-controlled Pacific. The map below highlights the scale of the problem:

quote:

Japanese submarines sit un-attacked for days in Allied ports. Why exactly did Allied radar work in the Bay of Biscay but it didn't work in Allied port hexes in the Pacific? In late 1943 in a present PBEM there is a Japanese submarine sitting spotted in the port Madang. Mere destroyers on ASW don't seem to be able to find them. Just curious as to why radar equipped a/c at the airbase in that hex don't even get the option to conduct ASW OPs at night?

In this case mentioned directly above your point is totally irrelevant. Although the Bay of Biscay may have constrained German submarines to specific transit areas there is no strange electro-magnetic anomaly covering the whole Pacific including Allied airbases and ports that allows Japanese submarines to exist unmolested in such hexes for turn after turn.

(in reply to Kull)

Post #: 35

RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics - 4/18/2019 5:42:49 AM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

Yep, the same sort of specialized ASW night ops implemented in a limited region directly south of the British Isles (with all the logistical benefits that implies) probably wouldn't translate to the Japanese-controlled Pacific. The map below highlights the scale of the problem:

quote:

Japanese submarines sit un-attacked for days in Allied ports. Why exactly did Allied radar work in the Bay of Biscay but it didn't work in Allied port hexes in the Pacific? In late 1943 in a present PBEM there is a Japanese submarine sitting spotted in the port Madang. Mere destroyers on ASW don't seem to be able to find them. Just curious as to why radar equipped a/c at the airbase in that hex don't even get the option to conduct ASW OPs at night?

In this case mentioned directly above your point is totally irrelevant. Although the Bay of Biscay may have constrained German submarines to specific transit areas there is no strange electro-magnetic anomaly covering the whole Pacific including Allied airbases and ports that allows Japanese submarines to exist unmolested in such hexes for turn after turn.

No point railing at what the developers chose to leave out of the game - what we have is it. If you can't do an ASW mission, set a search mission with range of 0 or 1, altitude 1000 feet. You might get a contact and attack.

Another thing about ASW in this game - if you put too many assets in the same hex the game engine seems unable to sort out which group gets contact and attack rolls. If I have more than two ASW TFs in the hex I almost never get an attack - night or day. I just went through two months of trying to hit the subs off PH, with all the bomber squadrons and patrol squadrons participating, plus carrier DB and TB squadrons. Hardly ever got a solid detection and attack even though ASW skills were working up into the 50 point category (squadrons trained while doing ASW and search). I began standing down squadrons and sending some of my DDs away on other mission or for upgrades/conversions and suddenly one of my Cats got an attack on a sub and reported a hit on a sub. Sinking sounds were heard at the end of the phase during the "Ships conduct repairs" step. There were no other enemy ships in danger of sinking at the time.

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 36

RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics - 4/18/2019 6:34:15 AM

jdsrae

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That could just mean that ASW groups need >50 ASW skill and probably experience before they stop seeing whales and start realising they they�re enemy subs.

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(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 37

RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics - 4/18/2019 12:59:15 PM

Kull

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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

In this case mentioned directly above your point is totally irrelevant. Although the Bay of Biscay may have constrained German submarines to specific transit areas there is no strange electro-magnetic anomaly covering the whole Pacific including Allied airbases and ports that allows Japanese submarines to exist unmolested in such hexes for turn after turn.

The point of the map is to highlight a possible rationale behind the devs leaving "Night Air ASW" capability out of the code. An Allied strategy employed solely in the limited confines of the Bay of Biscay is completely irrelevant in the grand scope of the Pacific theatre, and adding that ability would have resulted in far worse anomalies than the one you are exercised about.

Besides, the devs did address such situations. Park a sub in one place and it's detection levels will rise rapidly, and there IS code which makes "known subs" less effective.

_____________________________

AE-Japan Setup

AE-Allied Setup

Japan Air-Engine Plan

(in reply to spence)

Post #: 38

RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics - 4/18/2019 1:17:04 PM

Kull

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

That could just mean that ASW groups need >50 ASW skill and probably experience before they stop seeing whales and start realising they they�re enemy subs.

Absolutely. I had multiple ASW TFs patrolling around Pearl, and there might have been one successful attack in 6 months. By contrast, if you get your Air ASW guys trained up to 60+ in both experience AND ASW, they will find nearby subs almost every turn and report hits every few turns. Case in point, I have a size 18 Wirraway squadron based in Sydney, and they spot 1-2 subs almost every turn. Every pilot has experience of 60+ and 2/3 have ASW skills of 70 (all but one are 65+).

_____________________________

AE-Japan Setup

AE-Allied Setup

Japan Air-Engine Plan

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Post #: 39

RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics - 5/19/2019 10:03:41 AM

AleRonin

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How can I increase the ship experience in ASW role?
Also there is something in the game that show me when the experience grow? Like the green value in the pilot skill.

(in reply to Kull)

Post #: 40

RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics - 5/19/2019 10:26:48 AM

JoV

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Putting them directly in the firing line tends to do the trick. If they live to survive the exchange, tussling with subs will increase their experience. I think just generally being on patrol will increase experience, at least a bit.

No easy way to tell in game when experience has increased (that I know of), but Tracker is very good.

< Message edited by JoV -- 5/19/2019 10:29:12 AM >

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RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics - 5/19/2019 1:50:34 PM

GetAssista

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JoV
I think just generally being on patrol will increase experience, at least a bit.

Correct, being at sea will eventually elevate xp up to 45. Live action is needed after that

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Post #: 42

RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics - 5/19/2019 2:15:27 PM

Anachro

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Does this include night xp? Main focus for a lot of inexperienced Allies ships with poor night experience.

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RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics - 5/19/2019 2:21:52 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: JoV
I think just generally being on patrol will increase experience, at least a bit.

Correct, being at sea will eventually elevate xp up to 45. Live action is needed after that

The top level of experience attainable without combat varies with smaller vessels. Some, like AMc 's, top out at 25. Some top out at 35 (SCs?) PT boats top out at 50. US DDs (I think) top out at 65 but those of other nations are lower (55-60 IIRC).

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 44

RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics - 5/19/2019 2:55:14 PM

Kull

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

Does this include night xp? Main focus for a lot of inexperienced Allies ships with poor night experience.

There seems to be an algorithm which ensures that normal ops grant daylight experience faster than night. It's easy to see with certain ship types. Those which cap at 25-45 typically reach the max on the daylight end fairly quickly, after which the night experience eventually catches up. That's with ships that don't see any action - ASW events can alter the progression.

DD & higher have far more combat events so it's hard to know where the gains are coming from, but most of them have higher day-to-night ratings.

_____________________________

AE-Japan Setup

AE-Allied Setup

Japan Air-Engine Plan

(in reply to Anachro)

Post #: 45

RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics - 5/19/2019 5:14:18 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

Does this include night xp? Main focus for a lot of inexperienced Allies ships with poor night experience.

There seems to be an algorithm which ensures that normal ops grant daylight experience faster than night. It's easy to see with certain ship types. Those which cap at 25-45 typically reach the max on the daylight end fairly quickly, after which the night experience eventually catches up. That's with ships that don't see any action - ASW events can alter the progression.

DD & higher have far more combat events so it's hard to know where the gains are coming from, but most of them have higher day-to-night ratings.

In addition to battle, it seems from what I have seen that coping with damage from any source increases crew experience. Of course if you fail to cope, ...

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Kull)

Post #: 46

RE: ASW Tactics & Logistics - 6/25/2019 7:37:27 AM

Yaab

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Just wanted to say, that last year I lost a Bolo on ASW Mission at 2000 feet. The aircraft was lost to flak fire from a Japanese sub off Pearl Harbor in December 1941. Hawaii Islands: volcanoes + flak = hotter than Hell.

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 47