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RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS America (A)

 
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RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/21/2019 4:13:08 AM   
USSAmerica


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

About 2k is being pulled into Mandalay each 2 day turn and 800 into Lashio, both limited by their daily supply cap.


Not 100% sure here, but isn't that 'daily supply' cap in Burma only in effect during the monsoon? That would be mid-May through mid-Oct or Nov. Again not sure of the end date.

Maybe others may chime in on this one.


Sorry I don't have any documentation with me to verify this, but I can tell you Mandalay and Lashio have drawn almost exactly what the current base supply cap is for several turns now. My evidence in game is that they are in effect year round.



That may be, but I remember when your opponent had taken the region while playing Ted, he indicated having some problems getting supply out that way. When I got in there just before mid-May in my game I tried turning up the supply 'spinners', and wallah drew tons of supply. Try it see if it works.


Good thought, but both the supply spinners at Mandalay and Lashio are cranked up to even get them to draw any supply. Without that, they already have more than plenty.


OK, but I went even further. I cranked the whole line on/off to get it as far inland as I could. Pushed as much as possible into Rangoon. Then, Prome, Magwe, Mandalay.... 'Til I had over 30K at each. As Japan I felt that would hold me until the monsoon ran out. Just sayin'.

For you obviously the end result is to get it into China. From what I've read in these pages over the years it seems the only way to keep supply in China early on. Even then you'll have to be stingy. I imagine you're already aware of this though.





I looked up the official word on Monsoon Effect which was introduced in one of the earlier beta patches.

Monsoon season lasts from May 15 - Oct 15 and causes a 50% reduction on the daily supply draw cap of affected bases. Only bases with the daily supply draw cap in India, Burma, and Thailand are affected, and not all of them are. Posts 13 and 14 from Skyros in this thread have a chart that shows the affected bases in Scenario 1. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3793632


_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

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Post #: 121
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/21/2019 10:50:29 PM   
Bif1961


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As the Allies I have defended the mountain base 2 hexes SE of Batavia for some time normally it lasts between late May to mid July, 42. He has to surround it and risk you deciding to breakout in one direction or another if he doesn't leave enough back to contain it. I stock all mobile units and supply max there so it can hold out for 2-3 months after being invested. Being in the mountains I believe the affects of bombing are less and you usually are left alone longer there as he works on taking the major city/ports so your building of forts usually go higher there as well. It has worked well for me in several Allied side games.

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Post #: 122
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/22/2019 1:18:44 AM   
USSAmerica


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I'll keep that idea in mind for my next game, Bif. The question I still wonder is what is the driving need for the enemy to have to attack you there? Other than a little bit of LI and Resources, there is not the same motivation as capturing Batavia and Soerabaja. I understand the threat of a breakout, but it only requires a small to moderate force to occupy the surrounding hexes and wait it out, unless you give up the only advantage you have of defending in the mountain hex by attacking. Show me some advantage I could gain by holding out in that hex for another month or two and I would be sold. But otherwise, it seems like a good place to cut off, bypass, and let your forces wither on the vine similar to the Allied Island Hopping strategy later in the war.

< Message edited by USSAmerica -- 6/22/2019 1:19:57 AM >


_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

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Post #: 123
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/24/2019 2:04:19 AM   
Bif1961


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The best way to find that out would be to see how many troops it would take to surround the Mountain bastion to ensure that 1,000+ AV doesn't breakout and threaten to take Batavia and then have access to it's supplies. So the question is how much would have to be left behind to defend against a breakout? The Dutch have nothing to lose by leaving them in the mountains and everything to gain if the Japanese doesn't leave enough behind to defend against a breakout. For the Japanese it is a balance of time as the clock is against him and with the amphib bonus running out 1 April it forces him to make a decision, unlike if he takes the Dutch quicker in Batavia or
Soerabaja. It is a matter of in which way can the Dutch have the most influence the longest on the Japanese.

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Post #: 124
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/24/2019 9:30:56 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

I think you're referring to Bandoeng, Paul. 2 hexes SE of Batavia in mountain terrain.


Yeah, that's it.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

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Post #: 125
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/24/2019 9:35:33 PM   
rustysi


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Just seems to me that Surabaya tends to fall so quickly that its not worth trying. At any rate your point is valid and makes sense. Was just wondering if there was any other viable option. BTW that location is where the Dutch meant to make their last stand IIRC. In the end the whole op fell apart for them and it never materialized. Java went in a week, will never happen in the game.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

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Post #: 126
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/24/2019 11:36:20 PM   
Aksully

 

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Mike I appreciate the time it took to answer my questions. Very much appreciated. Your posts are like reading a cliff-hanging novel in can't wait to read the next page of your adventure! And Force Z has done you proud so hope it keeps on giving!

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Post #: 127
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/24/2019 11:39:45 PM   
USSAmerica


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Just seems to me that Surabaya tends to fall so quickly that its not worth trying. At any rate your point is valid and makes sense. Was just wondering if there was any other viable option. BTW that location is where the Dutch meant to make their last stand IIRC. In the end the whole op fell apart for them and it never materialized. Java went in a week, will never happen in the game.


I think you guys have convinced me to try defending Bandoeng in a future game. It will be an interesting experiment either way, similar to my trying out a defense in Manila this game.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

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Post #: 128
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/24/2019 11:42:30 PM   
USSAmerica


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aksully

Mike I appreciate the time it took to answer my questions. Very much appreciated. Your posts are like reading a cliff-hanging novel in can't wait to read the next page of your adventure! And Force Z has done you proud so hope it keeps on giving!


You're quite welcome for the answers, and thank you for the comments! Any time I actually know the answer to something I try to take the opportunity. It doesn't happen often.

As for Force Z, the only thing that they will be giving for a while is some work for the shipyard crew at Colombo.

Still wrapping up orders for the next turn and then will post an update, but let's say I picked the right time to pull my one BB and my CA led forces out of the DEI.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

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RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/25/2019 2:09:36 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

BTW no refineries in Batavia.


Sc. 2 has a small one in Batavia.

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RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/25/2019 2:25:37 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

The best way to find that out would be to see how many troops it would take to surround the Mountain bastion to ensure that 1,000+ AV doesn't breakout and threaten to take Batavia and then have access to it's supplies. So the question is how much would have to be left behind to defend against a breakout? The Dutch have nothing to lose by leaving them in the mountains and everything to gain if the Japanese doesn't leave enough behind to defend against a breakout. For the Japanese it is a balance of time as the clock is against him and with the amphib bonus running out 1 April it forces him to make a decision, unlike if he takes the Dutch quicker in Batavia or
Soerabaja. It is a matter of in which way can the Dutch have the most influence the longest on the Japanese.


Two Divisions of IJA infantry oughta do it.

1. Split them into component A/B/C subunits at all available hex sides (x6).
2. Have them simultaneously march into the Bandoeng hex. You can 'combat' move them if you're particularly concerned about the risk of a well-timed counterattack.
3. After they make the move, they'll 'flip' hex side control.
4. Reform parent divisions in Bandoeng. Set to 'combat'.
5. Organic engineer units will start building fortifications. It really doesn't take long to get to Fortification level 1. Forts 2 takes a little longer.
6. Wait.

Now the Allies holed up in Bandoeng have an unsolvable conundrum. Do they wait and allow the Japanese to continue to dig in? How long to wait? What will supplies look like after 1 month? Are there air attacks to further reduce supply availability?

If they attack, can they generate sufficient AV to offset approximately 700 Japanese AV in mountainous terrain? Probably not. Will attacking further erode their combat abilities? 1:2 attacks for the Allies-particularly in the early going by invested forces-are disastrous.

As Japanese, with full hexside control, I can rotate units into and out of the siege unit as I see fit. As Batavia and Soerbaja have been effectively abandoned, this siege zone becomes a secondary backwater. I can drag this on for 6 months if it means that Soerbaja and Batavia were mine for a song (and fully repaired!) earlier.

< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 6/25/2019 2:28:30 PM >


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RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/25/2019 3:23:21 PM   
USSAmerica


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

The best way to find that out would be to see how many troops it would take to surround the Mountain bastion to ensure that 1,000+ AV doesn't breakout and threaten to take Batavia and then have access to it's supplies. So the question is how much would have to be left behind to defend against a breakout? The Dutch have nothing to lose by leaving them in the mountains and everything to gain if the Japanese doesn't leave enough behind to defend against a breakout. For the Japanese it is a balance of time as the clock is against him and with the amphib bonus running out 1 April it forces him to make a decision, unlike if he takes the Dutch quicker in Batavia or
Soerabaja. It is a matter of in which way can the Dutch have the most influence the longest on the Japanese.


Two Divisions of IJA infantry oughta do it.

1. Split them into component A/B/C subunits at all available hex sides (x6).
2. Have them simultaneously march into the Bandoeng hex. You can 'combat' move them if you're particularly concerned about the risk of a well-timed counterattack.
3. After they make the move, they'll 'flip' hex side control.
4. Reform parent divisions in Bandoeng. Set to 'combat'.
5. Organic engineer units will start building fortifications. It really doesn't take long to get to Fortification level 1. Forts 2 takes a little longer.
6. Wait.

Now the Allies holed up in Bandoeng have an unsolvable conundrum. Do they wait and allow the Japanese to continue to dig in? How long to wait? What will supplies look like after 1 month? Are there air attacks to further reduce supply availability?

If they attack, can they generate sufficient AV to offset approximately 700 Japanese AV in mountainous terrain? Probably not. Will attacking further erode their combat abilities? 1:2 attacks for the Allies-particularly in the early going by invested forces-are disastrous.

As Japanese, with full hexside control, I can rotate units into and out of the siege unit as I see fit. As Batavia and Soerbaja have been effectively abandoned, this siege zone becomes a secondary backwater. I can drag this on for 6 months if it means that Soerbaja and Batavia were mine for a song (and fully repaired!) earlier.


Thanks for the Dark Side perspective, CB. More food for thought, but my initial reaction was more in line with your thinking.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

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Post #: 132
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/25/2019 3:29:01 PM   
USSAmerica


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December 20 - 21, 1941

China
Hong Kong held out for 2 weeks, but the defenders finally gave up the ghost this turn. For the last 2 or 3 turns, any bad die roll on my part meant the end, but at least I got to tie up some Japanese ground forces for a few extra days. I don't think any significant damage was done to the industry here.

The first of the Chinese LCU's that I can buy out has crossed into Burma and is heading for the nearest railroad station to ride part of the way to India. It will be several more turns before the next one makes it to the border. All but two small fighter groups and a handful of straggler planes have also hopped their way to Ledo and then on to Delhi. That will be my central Chinese air training base.

Other LCU's are slowly making their way back to a consolidated MLR. I've managed to slip a few more units out of the south and southeast where Mike could have cut them off if he tried harder. I've also designated a few units as "irritants" to get in Mike's way a bit, force him to stop and attack in places, sitting on his rail lines behind units, etc. He's said I'm really irritating in China, so I guess it's working a bit.

Central Pac
There are more signs that the massive sub blockade of Pearl is ending. Several more subs are making their way to the west. Many are probably Winchester from shooting at my DD's. The sunk ships list is showing 3 Jap subs sunk here for 3 of my DD's. Considering most of my DD's have very limited ASW until their first upgrades, I'll take that trade. It's a long war.

At the first signs of the Pearl blockade ending, a troop convoy left San Fran, bound for Pearl. It's carrying the two Inf Rgts to later reform the 24th and 25th Divisions at Pearl. The transports will then pick up some engineer and other units from Pearl that are bound for the South Pacific and Oz. By the time they unload and reload at Pearl a big followup convoy will have left SF for SOPAC and Oz. They will meet and have at least 1 if not all 3 CV's as escort for the trip.

South Pac
Mike's activity here has been limited so far. Several turns ago, I split the "Pensacola" convoy that starts at sea carrying lots of artillery. A couple of base forces started unloading at Suva while the Pensacola escorted several more toward Brisbane. Well, the infamous IJN AMC's that start in the area found and hit my unescorted, unloading transports at Suva. I split off Pensacola and gave chase for 4 days, but didn't manage to catch them. Very lucky timing on Mike's part, I believe, however some recon by Glens may also have tipped him off that those unloading ships were unescorted.

His forces have snatched Shortlands and Gasmata so far, as well as Kaiveng. No movement in force in this area yet.

DEI
As previously mentioned, I chose the right time to bug out with Force Z and my US/Dutch CA led forces. No less than 3 different BB TF's have made their way into the region to flex their muscles. 4 BB's bombarded Ambon Island and caught a couple of small transports there, empty fortunately. Two other BB's led a bombardment of Ternate. At least 1 BB but probably more is leading a SC TF patroling between Kuching and Palembang. There is at least one mini-KB backing up the surface TF's in the Sorong area. Almost all of my shipping has vacated the area.

Mike captured Miri this turn as well. Mouseover intel indicates 171 of 300 damage for both oil fields and refinery there. They both start at 150 "damaged" to simulate construction in progress, so about 21 points of damage were incurred to each. I'll take it.

Singapore
No signs of movement of LCU's into Singapore yet. The Japanese bombardment of the base picked up a bit this turn and my engineers were not able to repair all of the AF service damage. It's around 30%. This is a pretty clear indicator that my forts won't be increasing much from their current 3.04 level. I frankly didn't expect to make lvl 4, but I can hope. This is also a sign that my air operations from the AF at Singapore are near an end. I've left my remaining groups there for one more 2 day turn but will likely look to evacuate them after that. There are only a handful of fighters left there, as I decided not to draw any replacements here. Frankly, another 10-20 air frames here would just have been more swept from the skies in the same amount of time. The only reason I have a few still here is some didn't fly earlier. There are about 2 full squadrons of level bombers that have scored a couple of hits attacking ships at 1000 feet, and still about a dozen torpedo bombers. These guys had another successful day last turn as they hit and sank a couple of loaded troop transports off Mersing. Swim call!

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Mersing at 51,81

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 1 NM, estimated altitude 4,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 0 minutes

Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 4

Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim IV: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
xAK Yamabuki Maru, Bomb hits 1

Japanese ground losses:
10 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x Blenheim IV bombing from 1000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Mersing at 51,81

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Allied aircraft
Vildebeest III x 3

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
xAK Hukusei Maru, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk

Japanese ground losses:
57 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 40 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Vehicles lost 69 (63 destroyed, 6 disabled)

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Vildebeest III launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Mk XII Torpedo



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Mersing at 51,81

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 18 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Allied aircraft
Vildebeest III x 6

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
xAK Nihonka Maru, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
xAK Kotohira Maru, Torpedo hits 1

Japanese ground losses:
3027 casualties reported
Squads: 68 destroyed, 45 disabled
Non Combat: 54 destroyed, 18 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 26 (26 destroyed, 0 disabled)

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Vildebeest III launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Mk XII Torpedo


Then, this one was a nice bonus:

Morning Air attack on TF, near Singkawang at 53,88

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 14 NM, estimated altitude 2,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 6
Hudson I x 6

Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim IV: 2 damaged
Hudson I: 4 damaged

Japanese Ships
CL Sendai
DD Ayanami
DD Uranami, Bomb hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Hudson I bombing from 1000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
6 x Blenheim IV bombing from 1000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb

Burma
The first Japanese LCU has been spotted one hex from Moulmein. I gave orders for 1 Bn sized units to move into the jungle just across the river from the rail line connecting Rangoon with Mandalay. The goal here is to keep this rail line and the Burma Road open as long as possible so I want to delay Mike's ground forces forward of the line.

About 48k more supply is shipping into Rangoon, with 39k arriving next turn to start unloading. I'm hoping the bulk of this supply will get sucked into China before the line is cut.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

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Post #: 133
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/25/2019 9:27:19 PM   
BBfanboy


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All hail the 'Beests! Hope you can keep them in the air for a while!

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RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/25/2019 10:19:08 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

Two Divisions of IJA infantry oughta do it.


This is the whole point. Tying down two IJA divisions is a pretty big deal for the Dutch. Take those two divisions to Surabaya, the place falls after one or two attacks and move on to the next objective, while Java is garrisoned by a number of 'backwater' units.

Japan doesn't have a plethora of divisions running around the map, especially in the time frame of which we speak.

These units would be better used, say in western OZ. If nothing else in a spoiling attack in the region.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 135
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/25/2019 10:31:20 PM   
rustysi


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Well, your air attacks sure must be annoying as well, though these will soon end.

Keep as much supply as possible going to Rangoon, it will be of great use if you can get it to China.

So far things look as good as may be expected for the Allies at this stage.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 136
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/25/2019 11:35:41 PM   
USSAmerica


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

All hail the 'Beests! Hope you can keep them in the air for a while!


They are ordered to Naval Attack for at least 2 more days.... just need to keep that AF open a little longer...

Looking at the LCU losses, one of them lost a decent number of vehicles. I sure hope they were tanks.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 137
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/25/2019 11:41:00 PM   
USSAmerica


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Well, your air attacks sure must be annoying as well, though these will soon end.

Keep as much supply as possible going to Rangoon, it will be of great use if you can get it to China.


If the current two supply convoys make their deposits successfully another will be loaded up and immediately depart Colombo.

quote:


So far things look as good as may be expected for the Allies at this stage.


Thanks. I'm pretty happy with the events of the first two weeks. The only move I wish I had made differently was leaving too many of those ground forces at Johore Bahru in Move mode, hoping to get out of the hex before they were attacked. Mike commented that he thinks it's the only mistake I've made so far. I don't know about that, but maybe for those that were noticeable to him. It was a minor mistake in the grand scheme of things, likely only shortening the fall of Singapore by a week or less, but one I won't make again.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 138
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/26/2019 2:19:31 PM   
Bif1961


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CB, I would say breaking down those 2 divisions to their sub rgts and each one moves in combat mode to the mountain redoubt is already a victory for the Dutch. However, as stated by rustysi, that operation would take much longer than those two division defeating a defense of either Batavia or Soerabaja. Also leaving the rgts alone makes them vulnerable to attack by the dutch in the mountains who can have 1,000+ AV there and they could attack one rgt with 700 AV leaving the rest in 3-5 level forts on the mountain. Defeating a 150 AV Japanese Rgt not with forts and possibly in a clear hes nearest Batavia would make Batavia open to being taken. That would cause the Japanese to have even more LCUs on hand to stop the breakout towards Batavia in reserve or stop the movement towards the mountain with the other 5 Rgts to rush back to Batavia with some or all 5 remaining Rgts. Your scenario assumes the Dutch will not attack any of the isolated Rgts as they move towards the mountain hex with a large portion of their garrison.I have done this before and the Japanese were delayed even further, when I defeated one of his units moving up to attack the mountain.Then I was able to either move against something else or hustle back up to the mountain on a improved road using movement instead of combat mode. The Japanese have to use more than just two divisions to take the mountain redoubt than just the two divisions you suggest and it would take 2-3 months,as I stuff the place with all the supplies on Java and all the airplanes and flak. The Dutch also have a few small armor units they could let run amok once they breakout as the bulk of the LCUs go back up the mountain. I have done this in several games and the mountain redoubt holds out into june or july against a Japanese opponent who uses 200-300 bombers and 3-4 divisions. The best the Dutch can hope for is to tie up as many Japanese assets for as long as possible and I have done it in several games with this mountain redoubt gambit.

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 139
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/26/2019 6:36:39 PM   
USSAmerica


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That sounds like you have had a lot of success with this tactic, Bif!

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Post #: 140
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/27/2019 1:31:27 AM   
Bif1961


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I have tried fortress Soerbaja, which still falls too quickly, damages the port and base. Never tried fortress Batavia but have done fortress Palmenbang. That worked well but trashed the British 18th Divisions but destroyed a good amount of oil and refineries. Of those three options the mountain redoubt works the best and denies the Japanese one of their valuable tools, no naval bombardments in the mountains. I could make it even better by bringing in non-Java based Dutch LCUs to the mountain as well and ramping up the AV to 1,200-1,300.

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Post #: 141
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/27/2019 9:28:59 PM   
rustysi


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I've been giving this some thought over the last few days and it seems to me that its best to consider which of the desired results is best for the player. Now of course that depends on the individual, and his/her play style.

As for myself if I were the Allies, I would want the early game to be based on delay, delay, delay. Just what the Japanese want later. It seems to me the best way to do this is as Bif1961 says and defend the mountain redoubt. Thinking about it further, I wonder how much a few points of infrastructure damage at Soerbaja will benefit the Allies in the long run. It seems to me that tying down more Japanese forces for a longer time on Java during the 'expansion' period would be more beneficial. JMHO. YMMV.

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Post #: 142
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/27/2019 10:58:30 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

I have tried fortress Soerbaja, which still falls too quickly, damages the port and base. Never tried fortress Batavia but have done fortress Palmenbang. That worked well but trashed the British 18th Divisions but destroyed a good amount of oil and refineries. Of those three options the mountain redoubt works the best and denies the Japanese one of their valuable tools, no naval bombardments in the mountains. I could make it even better by bringing in non-Java based Dutch LCUs to the mountain as well and ramping up the AV to 1,200-1,300.


To preclude the unfortunate game effect of refineries producing supplies in places like Palembang, I've HR'ed the "Fortress Palembang" gambit. If my opponent agrees not to stack this hex unrealistically with a freakin' Army (supplied, of course by the refineries), I agree not to land on Java on turn 1 with a division and a half-which can be done with the first turn 'magic move'. Usually they find the exchange of 'unacceptable for unacceptable' to be a good one.

Most Japanese efforts to liberate Java are somewhere between March and May 1942. I would venture that most involve more than two division equivalents at that time. If you wanted to sequester the ABDA fighting forces and tie up a couple of divisions in the hills for a couple months while I took out the remainder of the strategic points of interest on Java, I'd be OK with that. Perhaps this has worked for you in a couple of other games (all PBEM?), but it wouldn't put me off at all. YMMV of course.

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Post #: 143
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/27/2019 11:06:17 PM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

I have tried fortress Soerbaja, which still falls too quickly, damages the port and base. Never tried fortress Batavia but have done fortress Palmenbang. That worked well but trashed the British 18th Divisions but destroyed a good amount of oil and refineries. Of those three options the mountain redoubt works the best and denies the Japanese one of their valuable tools, no naval bombardments in the mountains. I could make it even better by bringing in non-Java based Dutch LCUs to the mountain as well and ramping up the AV to 1,200-1,300.


To preclude the unfortunate game effect of refineries producing supplies in places like Palembang, I've HR'ed the "Fortress Palembang" gambit. If my opponent agrees not to stack this hex unrealistically with a freakin' Army (supplied, of course by the refineries), I agree not to land on Java on turn 1 with a division and a half-which can be done with the first turn 'magic move'. Usually they find the exchange of 'unacceptable for unacceptable' to be a good one.

Most Japanese efforts to liberate Java are somewhere between March and May 1942. I would venture that most involve more than two division equivalents at that time. If you wanted to sequester the ABDA fighting forces and tie up a couple of divisions in the hills for a couple months while I took out the remainder of the strategic points of interest on Java, I'd be OK with that. Perhaps this has worked for you in a couple of other games (all PBEM?), but it wouldn't put me off at all. YMMV of course.

And then there is the alternative strategy.




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Post #: 144
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/28/2019 1:05:07 PM   
USSAmerica


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Andre, and anyone else with experience from the Dark Side, what is a typical force strength used to conquer Java and what would be a typical garrison strength?

If the delay tactic of holing up in the mountain hex could require a larger than normal force to capture, or if they could delay and tie up more forces than the typical garrison, then I'd probably consider it worthwhile over the industry damage I am hoping to cause in this game at Soerabaja.

Delay is absolutely the name of the game at this point in the war, but if I'm only delaying forces that will remain on Java anyway, it's not much added value in my estimation. Very good discussion, gents!

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Post #: 145
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/28/2019 3:42:32 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

Andre, and anyone else with experience from the Dark Side, what is a typical force strength used to conquer Java and what would be a typical garrison strength?

If the delay tactic of holing up in the mountain hex could require a larger than normal force to capture, or if they could delay and tie up more forces than the typical garrison, then I'd probably consider it worthwhile over the industry damage I am hoping to cause in this game at Soerabaja.

Delay is absolutely the name of the game at this point in the war, but if I'm only delaying forces that will remain on Java anyway, it's not much added value in my estimation. Very good discussion, gents!


Java gets everything from Hong Kong and Luzon that I can spare-as soon as it's practical to get 'em there after their prior engagements have been dealt with. That's something like 5 IDs, plus artillery, armor, HQ and engineers. Eventually.

I would probably repurpose the Hong Kong contingent to seek a lodgement ASAP. Kalidjati or somewhere on the Java sea coast is a good place to start to bisect the island.

I don't understand the question about 'typical garrison'. For whom? Where?

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Post #: 146
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/28/2019 4:15:28 PM   
USSAmerica


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From: Graham, NC, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

Andre, and anyone else with experience from the Dark Side, what is a typical force strength used to conquer Java and what would be a typical garrison strength?

If the delay tactic of holing up in the mountain hex could require a larger than normal force to capture, or if they could delay and tie up more forces than the typical garrison, then I'd probably consider it worthwhile over the industry damage I am hoping to cause in this game at Soerabaja.

Delay is absolutely the name of the game at this point in the war, but if I'm only delaying forces that will remain on Java anyway, it's not much added value in my estimation. Very good discussion, gents!


Java gets everything from Hong Kong and Luzon that I can spare-as soon as it's practical to get 'em there after their prior engagements have been dealt with. That's something like 5 IDs, plus artillery, armor, HQ and engineers. Eventually.

I would probably repurpose the Hong Kong contingent to seek a lodgement ASAP. Kalidjati or somewhere on the Java sea coast is a good place to start to bisect the island.

I don't understand the question about 'typical garrison'. For whom? Where?


Sorry, by typical garrison I was wondering what forces you leave to defend Java after conquering it? In context, if the "defend in the mountains" route is chosen and ties up an estimated 2 divisions, is that more than you would normally leave on Java? Less? How much of an impact would tying up 2 divisions for several more months on Java have on your normal operations and timetable for expansion?

_____________________________

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"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

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Post #: 147
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/28/2019 10:20:09 PM   
jdsrae


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I don’t get fancy with manoeuvre or trying to use economy of force on Java.
Others might by diverting a Division or two to PNG or similar before taking Java.
Once Singapore and Luzon fall, the main effort for Japan really should be clearing the DEI to start the oil and fuel convoys.

For Java garrison duty, that depends on how far IJ Mike is going to push his perimeter.
I might leave a Division or two on Java to rest and recover but I would push fhe rest forward.
By April 42, Japan needs to fight hard to keep the momentum as losing the amphib bonus will slow things down.
I’d be searching for information on where you’ve sent 18 Brit Div and the Aussie Divs to see where to hit next, but also start being wary of a counter attack based around them.

I’d probably move the Java conquerors east to clear the rest of the DEI and PNG, but there are only scraps of oil and resources left after Java so a few extra weeks or even months delay in capturing them has no effect on the economy.

Unless you plan on doing something radical like sending 18 UK and the Aussie divs to the DEI to help them, I don’t think it matters for the Japanese economy where the Dutch make their last stand.or even if they defend a mountain for a few months.

What you do with any extra delay you can create is what matters. Will an extra month or two change any of your plans?
Are you just using the time to build up bases in India and Aus or are you planning to launch a counter attack somewhere?

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Post #: 148
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 6/30/2019 11:48:20 PM   
Bif1961


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CB all my games have been PBEMs. Like I said earlier I have tried several types of defense for DEI and found the mountain redoubt the best use of Dutch forces, which will all go away anyways at some point. However, it takes more than 2 divisions more than 3 months, once you land in java to hope to dislodge and defeat them. As mentioned before other defensive positions mention can be bombarded by sea so that is one less tool in the Japanese box to defeat 1,000+ AV in the mountain defense. Delay is the name of the game.

having discussed this I would prefer a more historic,/realistic approach where if u take Palmenbang, Batavia and Soerabaja the Dutch surrender all and all units surrender and all Dutch bases auto-flip Japanese. Having to chase down every last Dutch unit and flip all the small bases across DEI is time consuming adventure the real Japanese never had to deal with. I would suggest the same for the Philippines as well.

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Post #: 149
RE: THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS Am... - 7/1/2019 1:08:51 AM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica
Sorry, by typical garrison I was wondering what forces you leave to defend Java after conquering it? In context, if the "defend in the mountains" route is chosen and ties up an estimated 2 divisions, is that more than you would normally leave on Java? Less? How much of an impact would tying up 2 divisions for several more months on Java have on your normal operations and timetable for expansion?


OK. I understand the question, but not sure what timeline you're looking at.

During the expansion period (first 6-10 months for the Japanese), I would minimize the garrison on Java to be that which is the minimum necessary to garrison the island's cities. It's not much, maybe 120 AV by my recollection. I'd also have engineers and naval support units working on Batavia and Soerbaja. HQn/HQa +/-. But most of my combat-capable forces would be headed for alternative destinations.

During the consolidation / equilibrium / defense periods (after late 1942), Java will see considerably more units than the minimum garrison requirements. It is a defensive bastion and must be held.

If I can take Java (minus the mountain redoubt)-particularly Batavia and Soerbaja on the cheap and the fly with two Divisions, then I can hold in place for further reinforcements from Luzon and Singapore. Figure 4-5 Divisions (+ support) available mid-February after Singapore falls and another 4-5 Divisions April-May when Luzon is done.

So, how long would a pesky Java defense set back my timetable? It depends. As I think I've stated clearly, I don't believe that the mountain redoubt described would delay my timetable. If Batavia and Soerbaja are 'open cities' or de facto open cities with minimal ABDA defensive abilities, I can wait a long time before I need to reduce the mountain redoubt. It simply doesn't matter.

In my current PBEM game vs. Acepylut (Sc.2), he holed up in Batavia. A smart move. I was reluctant to naval bombard Batavia for fear of damaging the LI, HI and refinery there. He held up in supply until late April 1942. I had to rotate 5 divisions through Batavia to reduce it. I was fortunate that there was minimal facilities damage after capture. But he *had* to go. I wasn't going to leave him alone atop a supply production center like that-he would have still been there in 1943 if I had. Very different impetus than the need to attack a mountain redoubt outside of Batavia / Soerbaja / Trincomalee.

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