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- 6/28/2001 9:25:00 PM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		gdpsnake: You've pointed out a problem that remionds me of a majot problem I've seen in the game, though happily I rarely get myself in those tight spots. What I'm referring to is not on the offensive as you're describing enemy assults, but the defensive enemy. If I advance a tank adjacent to numerous enemy units EVERY ONE OF THEM can assualt the tank from that one lousy move, if the tank should last so long. I think their should be a limit to what you might call opassualting, every bit as much as opfire. For one thing, let's assume the tank runs into 9 units, is assaulted 9 times and survives. Then I rally rally it and fire once, then, it's assulted 9 more times unless the other units are suppressed. I know that logically I would be wise to pull out if it was still mobile after the rallying, either that or throw another unit into the fracus, but to get assaulted so many times by one action, by one unit, just isn't right.

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Post #: 31
- 6/28/2001 9:27:00 PM   
Kluckenbill

 

Posts: 278
Joined: 6/7/2000
From: Lancaster, PA, USA
Status: offline 		I just got my disk yesterday so I was up late getting started on 5.3. Can anyone tell me if the issue of infantry close assaults has been addressed. This issue has been covered repeatedly in this forum. I think that infantry close assaults were far too effective against armor in the prior versions of SPWAW. Has this been changed in V5.3?

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Target, Cease Fire !

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 32
- 6/29/2001 12:09:00 AM   
Rover

 

Posts: 79
Joined: 5/29/2000
Status: offline 		Reading Charles_22 I'm reminded of something I've noticed and am not sure it's accurate... basically the AI can attack (each OPS Fire opportunity) with as many units as pass the test during my turn but on the AI turn my OPS Fire always seems to be limited to two units max regardless of units which should seemingly pass the test. Was just wondering if this is my imagination/luck or is there some difference in the OPS Fire/opportunity routine between AI and human player. Thanks.

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(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 33
- 6/29/2001 12:27:00 AM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		Rover: There is, and it's been admitted as such. The player never gets more than twice (unless, perhaps, he gets opassault as the computer does) in opfire while the AI gets three times. This is done to help the computer's weakness it is said, but sometimes I have to wonder if it really doesn't 'hurt' the computer more, because it often gets it into so much retargeting that come it's actual turn it often doesn't have enough volleys left to concentrate on one target to the degree it could have otherwise.

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(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 34
- 6/29/2001 2:14:00 AM   
JimY

 

Posts: 28
Joined: 5/16/2000
From: St. Louis, MO USA
Status: offline 		While playing the Finns against USSR in a frozen lake scenario, I have had success killing the USSR infantry in trees and rough cover. I suppress them with close (1-2) hex fire. Then one of my squads (or two if I'm lucky) gets into the same hex as the USSR and blazes away. Even if I do not get a kill, the USSR stays in retreat or rout mode, especially after more rifle and MG fire. On the next turn, the squad in the same hex can melee with great results against even 2-3 enemy suppressed squads. If my squad cannot melee, usually close in submachinegun, MG, or grenade causes casualties. I even get an occassional rifle casualty even in trees. That scares the USSR squad into retreating, which makes them vulnerable because they have moved. If my squad can melee usually at least one enemy squad surrenders and the other run. The one adjustment that I made to the game is setting infantry toughness to 90%.

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(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 35
- 6/29/2001 4:51:00 AM   
New York Jets


Posts: 2087
Joined: 6/25/2001
From: St. Louis, MO but stuck in Bremerton,WA
Status: offline 		I've only been playing SPWaW since April. But as a wargamer of 30 yrs and having searched in vain for the last 5 yrs (my last ftf opportunity) for an acceptable and close approximation of ASL, I must say I could not be happier with this game. While I haven't played SP as long as some others to be able to make fine distinctions between 5.01 to 5.3, I am a stickler for accuracy, detail, and what seems to be overlooked by some, namely flavor and aesthetics. When I play this game I get a "feel" for the time and place. The map and unit depictions are beautiful (and yes, accurate) to watch. Maybe by the time you guys get to v5.8 or so, I'll be able to squeeze in enough time between my career and family to join in the fine technical discussions regarding the game programming. Don't take me incorrectly, I truly appreciate the effort some of these guys put in to improving the product. But for now, all I know is that it is the finest WWII tactical simulator I have played on the computer. Keep it up everybody! Only one question though. How soon can we maybe expect some Korean War scenarios?

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(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 36
- 6/29/2001 5:29:00 AM   
Antonius

 

Posts: 209
Joined: 6/6/2000
From: Saint Arnoult en Yvelines FRANCE
Status: offline 		The problem with 5.3 is that we will be running out of bugs to report and improvements to ask for :)

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(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 37
- 6/29/2001 6:40:00 AM   
Warrior


Posts: 1808
Joined: 11/2/2000
From: West Palm Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		The more I play it, the better I like it!

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(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 38
- 6/29/2001 7:49:00 AM   
Slayer

 

Posts: 63
Joined: 11/26/2000
From: Toronto, ON, Canada
Status: offline 		With the new difficulty of hitting infantry, taking down 5 Japanese with a single BAR shot made my day! Great stuff, I couldn't be happier with the game!

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(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 39
- 6/29/2001 8:30:00 AM   
Tombstone

 

Posts: 764
Joined: 6/1/2000
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline 		5.3 rules... I'm starting to sound like a broken record. Tomo

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Post #: 40
- 6/29/2001 9:22:00 AM   
BruceAZ


Posts: 608
Joined: 10/9/2000
From: California
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Tombstone: 5.3 rules... I'm starting to sound like a broken record. Tomo
Ditto :D :D

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(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 41
- 6/29/2001 9:35:00 AM   
snowman

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 10/17/2000
From: North Pole, AK
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by David Heath: Hi Guys We are hard at work with Combat Leader and we want your input on what you think of v5.3 Thanks for your time.
I haven't even gotten the version I ordered back in May. Sure wish I could tell you what I thought of it. Mike :( :(

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(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 42
- 6/29/2001 10:15:00 AM   
Elvis

 

Posts: 86
Joined: 6/20/2000
From: Clarion, PA
Status: offline 		So far, no major complaints...

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(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 43
- 6/29/2001 10:29:00 AM   
David boutwell

 

Posts: 353
Joined: 5/28/2000
From: Haymarket, Virginia, USA
Status: offline 		If I could play the game at all, I could tell you..... David Boutwell

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(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 44
- 6/29/2001 11:32:00 AM   
Uglykid

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 4/12/2001
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline 		First i thougth that damn this is too hard, then i read this topic and started think about it. Went back to play and voila I liked it more than ever! I think that 5.3 is verygood or maybe best :D !

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(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 45
- 6/29/2001 12:40:00 PM   
WeyBug

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 4/27/2001
From: San Diego, CA
Status: offline 		First, thanks to everyone at Matrix for a great game. I have been playing 5.3 for a couple of days now. Very impressed. I hvae seen one odd trend that has been mentioned here. Crews seem very powerful. I would think that when a few guys get there big afv shot out from under them, they might be a bit stunned or timid even. That has not been my experience. In one scenario(1941 Brit vs. Italian) I knocked out an IT tank with an ATR at range two. For two turns the ATR at range 2 and 3-4 squads at ranges 5-10 blazed away at this crew. He(one man crew) proceeded to wipe out the ATR and then advance towards VP hxes. In the same fight 2 Brit Sapper Secs and 1 Brit Rifle Section fired every shot available(around 6) at a crew 2 hexes from all of them and failed to score a single kill. Have others seen similar events? Do crews need to be "dialed down"?

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(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 46
- 6/29/2001 1:47:00 PM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		Korea is in the works right now, Chris. Keep watching. Remember, we don't have North Koreans, so we'll have to use Communist Chinese mixed with Russian tanks. But it will work ;) ..Wild Bill

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Independent Game Consultant

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 47
- 6/29/2001 7:12:00 PM   
troopie

 

Posts: 996
Joined: 4/8/2000
From: Directly above the centre of the Earth.
Status: offline 		Crews aren't born with a yellow stripe, and shouldn't be modeled so. But they aren't infantrymen either. Yes. vehicle and gun crews got the same basic training as everyone else, but they went on to something else. They will remember how to shoot their weapons, but not with any great efficiency. It is no more reasonable to expect a tank crew to act as high quality infantry, than it is reasonable to pick men out of a rifle section and have them crew a gun. Yes, they will be able to puzzle it out in time. Yes, they may be able to perform. But they won't be very good at it. Yes, Guderian occasionally used tank crews as infantry. Clerks, cooks, and doctors have fought as infantry also. But not with the same efficacy as infantry, because they are not infantry. troopie

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Pamwe Chete

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 48
- 6/29/2001 8:44:00 PM   
Kluckenbill

 

Posts: 278
Joined: 6/7/2000
From: Lancaster, PA, USA
Status: offline 		Well, I've played 5.3 for about 12 hours now (its just as addictive as earlier versions) and I have some comments and concerns: I've noticed lots of bug fixes and small improvements (EG, the dust trails, staying on the original target when hitting 'T' etc.) and I do appreciate them. Like others, I'm having trouble coming to grips with the new infantry toughness. I'm currently playing the Stalingrad Campaign. Last turn I fired at a Russian Rifle Platoon more than a 20 times with my own Rifle and Engineer squads at 1 and 2 hex range, the to-hit percentatages ranged from 20+ to 80+ %, and I only caused 2 casualties! I realize that the stated percent is not totally accurate, but this seems way out of whack. I'm concerned that with the new infantry toughness, it will take too long to dig enemy infantry out of defensive positions, thus making it hard to atain vicory conditions in the time alloted. You can't just bypass them when they're dug in on the victory hexes!

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(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 49
- 6/29/2001 11:10:00 PM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline 		And crews have been hobble about 5 different ways compared to regular infantry...If you are behind a wall or in a hole, bullets don;t know if you are a crew or infantry. Crews are slower, can't shoot as straight, are more scared of enemy tanks, and a couple other things I can;t rember, about the only left is to have them just ran for lives off teh board the minute they abandon there vehicle... Of then then we would see a chorus of "how come I can't reman my vehicle" Crews won't stand up to regular infantry, but if you insist on executing every enemy soldier, they are just as hard to kill as any other grunt. We are aware of the concerns over the new combat and existing scenarios. The best way to help us out on this is to report your score in infantry heavy, time constrained scenarios and how you think the new routines have affected them. in a few weeks if there are still serious concerns over the playability of some older scenarios we can talk about extending turns, and tweaking the combat a little more, but the real fix will be in COmbat Leader, so for the next several weeks we will be concentrating on that. There is also work on OOBs going on so if there is an adjustment that you think helps balance it out there let folks know on teh OOB forum. Trying to get convergence between the OOBs, The scenarios and the engine requires a lot of time and if you players simply report in results and impressions, it will help immensely. We can work on CL and you can help with the final tweak.

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(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 50
- 6/30/2001 12:27:00 AM   
Panzer Leo

 

Posts: 526
Joined: 6/13/2001
From: Braunschweig/Germany
Status: offline
quote:

Last turn I fired at a Russian Rifle Platoon more than a 20 times with my own Rifle and Engineer squads at 1 and 2 hex range, the to-hit percentatages ranged from 20+ to 80+ %, and I only caused 2 casualties!
Hmmm !!! Maybe you should send your officers back to tactical training center...when they had listen to their teachers in the first, they would know, that no matter how often you shoot at something, you cannot hit it, when you don't have a direct line of fire (for rifles of course). So when a bunch of soldiers hides behind some walls or whatever, it does not matter if you shoot 10 or 30 times - they will keep their heads down ;) But here's German infantry doctrine from now (didn't change since 1945): One third of the platoon (with as much MGs as possible) puts a lot of bullets on the target, directed by a sergeant. The other two thirds, lead by the officer, STORM the enemy positions from the side (if possible), entering in close combat and trenchfighting. The sergeant of the support troop will stop firing as soon as the officer signals he's about to enter the entrenchments. So if you don't move your troops the last one or two hexes up to the enemy, you'll never get 'em...and that's the way it is :D

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Mir nach, ich folge euch !

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 51
- 6/30/2001 1:12:00 AM   
Mark Ezra

 

Posts: 340
Joined: 12/29/2000
From: Jasmin Ranch, Acton CA
Status: offline 		I just finished testing a scen that ended up with a number of crew v inf or armor fights. I noticed no super crews. A couple of crews never had a capability to fire weapons, others did but with limited sucess. My view is crews seem to act like crews, some come out of their vehicles dazed and confused, others have a bit of fight in them, but most are interested in self preservation.

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(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 52
- 6/30/2001 1:33:00 AM   
krull

 

Posts: 513
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: USA
Status: offline 		I like 5.3 . Only super crews i have seen have been high experinced ones. Plus Seen nice difference in elevation and cover. if My infantrys in open i been getting murdered by those pesky marines. Japanese infantry troops are now alot better and not just cannon fodder vs Marine troops. Same with Marines finaly an elite infantry setup and not just a bunch of blade shermans :) I like it very much :D

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Krull

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 53
- 6/30/2001 1:51:00 AM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline 		THe hit % for soft targets ar the the chances that you effctively engage the target, other wise your shooting just causes more suppression. SO 99% hit chances against entrenched troops just mean that you are 99% sure that you have a chance to kill...you still have to see what the effect is. Its like the hit roll against tanks, an ATR might have 99% hit chance against a Tiger, but it will not kill it, similar for men heavily suppressd in good cover.

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Post #: 54
- 6/30/2001 2:02:00 AM   
MalleusDei

 

Posts: 56
Joined: 4/27/2001
From: Baton Rouge
Status: offline 		>Clerks, cooks, and doctors have fought as >infantry also. But not with the same >efficacy as infantry, because they are not >infantry. Two-thirds untrue. US Marine clerks and cooks have indeed fought with distinction as infantry when needed and have kicked ass. All Marines - cooks, clerks, tankers, you name it - are riflemen first, last, and foremost. But you are right on one count, but that's only because the USMC doesn't have its own doctors. :)

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Post #: 55
- 6/30/2001 3:02:00 AM   
Akmatov

 

Posts: 495
Joined: 7/26/2000
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		On occasions support personnel of all services have performed wonders as emergency infantry. However, this is not their primary function and their performance can be expected to reflect that. Rommel had a fine voice intercept unit in NA, until some clever local commander chose to throw them into the line in an emergency. They fought bravely and died performing a task that was not the one they were primarily trained for. Of course, afterwards Rommels intell was crap. I'm sure Marine cooks, clerks and other rear-echelon life forms have kicked butt on occasion - partly because the USMC is willing to pay the costs of maintaining their combat skills at a higher level than most organizations - but I'll bet the local commanders would have prefered combat infantry and I'll bet the casualties were higher than necessary.

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(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 56
- 6/30/2001 6:02:00 PM   
Kharan

 

Posts: 505
Joined: 5/9/2000
Status: offline 		Well, I did a few firing range tests and didn't really notice any difference in HE effectiveness. I guess the modifications were only to infantry vs infantry situations. So no complaints from me!

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(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 57
- 6/30/2001 8:25:00 PM   
Kluckenbill

 

Posts: 278
Joined: 6/7/2000
From: Lancaster, PA, USA
Status: offline 		Since it seems to me that Infantry is way too hard to kill, I kept track of a recent fight. I'm playing the Stalingrad Campaign. I set Infantry toughness at 90%, hoping to at least have some chance of inflicting casualties. In this example I attacked a Russian Rifle squad of 9 men, in woods, I suppose dug in. These guys had been softened up with 3 turns of artillery prep by 81mm Mortars and 105mm Howitzers. I shot a total of 45 times, 13 times from the same hex and 32 times at 1 hex range. The russians were surrounded on all 6 sides as well as having 2 German rifle squads in their hex. I fired with my HQ, 2 rifle squads, and one Engineer squad and 6 Half Tracks. I caused 3 casualties. The Russians are no more effective against my infantry than I am against theirs. I'm not concerned with play balance, its just too darn hard to kill these grunts, it takes a lot of fun out of the game to spend 1/2 hour shooting at the same unit with no effect! I'll keep lowering the Infantry toughness setting until the game seems playable to me. Here's what I'd like to know: Is it just me? Do you other players find this level of difficulty acceptable? Didn't this come up in play testing? And I have deleted my old Steel.prf

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Target, Cease Fire !

(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 58
- 6/30/2001 9:15:00 PM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 2013
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline 		I just finished my first Scenario with 5.3 and I really like it but I still think that some things should be reworked. -Higher kill ratio for Infantry fire on short ranges. Why? Because I tryed to kill a russian MMG that stood in an clear hex with NO COVER, me right beside him in an Stone Building and I was shooting like Arni in his best days but didn't hit anything :mad:. Maybe it's just my stupid Opinion but to kill the russians should have been as easy as making a Sandwich, or not :confused:? -Much more casualities in Melee Combat. Why? Because I tryed to kill a Sniper, I shoot at him multiple times and hit nothing ok fast guy with good cover and good camouflage, ok ok hard to hit I told myself. But then I was in the same hex with him and startet Melee Combat also mutiple times with also NO Result. No thats not funny :mad:, I mean how hard can it be to kill one man in Melee Combat when he is visible, maximal 50 Meters away, has nothing really usefull for Melee Combat and 10 Germans a storming in on him??? What did he do in that small hex? Started running in circles till he kicked the last him following Soldier in the ass? I would have understood if he retreaded out of the hex but not that he survies Melee, stays in the same hex and starts his turn with killing 2 or 3 of my Soldiers. -Unit Size Modifier I'm not sure how much differnce is in the Combat routine btween big units with about 20 Men and small units like crews with 2 or 3 Men, but I have the feeling that the difference is also too big. OK hit 1 out of 20 sounds easier then hit one out of 2. I had the feeling that it is much more difficult to kill small units like Partisans instead of killing on from a normal Russian Infantry Unit. Now some Details from the Scenario I played: Karnev Bridgehead Casualities: Men: 164 to 221 Art.: 1 to 0 APCs: 2 to 0 AFVs: 8 to 19 Points: 2743 to 2507 DRAW

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(in reply to David Heath)
Post #: 59
- 6/30/2001 9:24:00 PM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: [QB]And crews have been hobble about 5 different ways compared to regular infantry...If you are behind a wall or in a hole, bullets don;t know if you are a crew or infantry. Crews are slower, can't shoot as straight, are more scared of enemy tanks, and a couple other things I can;t rember, about the only left is to have them just ran for lives off teh board the minute they abandon there vehicle... Of then then we would see a chorus of "how come I can't reman my vehicle" Crews won't stand up to regular infantry, but if you insist on executing every enemy soldier, they are just as hard to kill as any other grunt. QB]
If only that last single crewman would die!! hehheh, that last man seems invincible :)

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Post #: 60
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