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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A)

 
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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/21/2020 1:23:40 AM   
Lowpe


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This my theory on Pilot Training, take it with a grain of salt:



Realize that there is 3 ways to earn accumulation points (there is a check so nothing is certain) from training:



1: IF the EXP + Missions + Kills is less than 50 and lower than overall group experience

2: IF the pilots EXP + Missions + Kills is less than 50 and lower than the leaders skill

3. Regular training mission

The chance of successful training increases if some percent of group is composed of veterans (exp 80+). Uncertain.

Then realize that as the experience and skill increase it takes longer to achieve enough points for a improvement check because the threshold level has risen.

You gain accumulation points to advance and both the skill and experience are checked and the threshold to advance in either is different based upon current level. The higher the level the more accumulation points you need for an improvement check.

And finally, if the experience level is higher than the best skill by more than 5 then the skill might gain the improvement point instead of experience giving you a shot at gaining 2 points of skill or more (my record so far is 5, but I haven't been nearly diligent enough at checking this).

And you are capped at 70 skill.

Generally speaking you can train a half decent graduate of flight school to 60 in one month, and need 2 months to get to the vaunted 70 CAP level for skills. Experience always lags skills.

You can use general training on brand new low experience pilots to boost their experience, but once the experience level is 5 greater than the highest skill, there is no point to general training to boost experience. As far as I know, this is not documented anywhere with certainty. Most of training is not documented...see the pilot addendum but realize it was written at a time when training groups were a thing, and they are no more and it is not absolutely clear what applies only to training groups although training groups are mentioned specifically in two areas that I didn't include in this article.

Even if you are stealing pilots straight from the flight school with 15 experience (happens to Japan sometimes) you are generally better off simply training for your skill, and then if you want to grab some experience have them fly CAP at 0 range 100% (fighters/NF/Floats/Kamikaze), or try Naval Search 0 range high percentage (bombers). What the fatigue and plane fatigue on the naval search group.

Finally Combat, shooting stuff, gains skill and experience the fastest. So a lot of players like to farm experience by having milk runs. I guess you can do this is supply isn't a worry.

Now to the point on individual leaders and their impacts on training. Damien, one of the creators of Tracker, tested a whole slew of variables and found nothing was outside of the +-2%. Nada.

Now I personally think this is true. However, if you look at leader skills as a matrix (courtesy Alfred), and look at HQa and also Command HQs, and Commanders, and a Veteran or two, I think you can stack that +-2% favorably with an improved chance of success across multiple checks. To do that you need HQa with leaders that are strong in multiple areas likely to impact training like but not limited to: leadership, air, inspiration, high skill.

Testing to prove this is very difficult. Good leaders are hard to find and expensive to replace. Test groups vary by a lot which of course impacts training speed.

The real tests are can you significantly boost training to skill 60 to less than the 30 day period or to 70 from less than the 90 day period generally cited? Then is it worth the PP, time and energy to do so?

Certainly, you don't want to give low experience pilots missions or kills if you can help it.




< Message edited by Lowpe -- 8/21/2020 1:53:50 AM >

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/21/2020 6:31:05 AM   
Encircled


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How are you finding the two day turns Lowpe?

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/21/2020 9:06:00 PM   
Lowpe


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Dec 21st & 22nd 1941

What a boring turn. Have to do something about that.

Dutch bomb Miri at night, and get no reported hits, but recon shows otherwise. Sometimes there is a day lag for recon to catch up with damage from night bombing, but there is also a fair bit of FOW. We will keep at it, perhaps will throw 8 Dutch bombers during the daytime too, gotta figure enemy fighters will show up at some point.

Kuching Falls.

An HQ in eastern China that was cutting a rail line surrenders.

China hits 193K supply
Sumatra 64K supply with 30k to land next turn
Singapore 130K Fighter strength still strong

IJ bomb and sweep Clark AFB, do 7 points of damage to the runway, 20 to the service.

Midway gets heavy reinforcements, supply and fuel. The dot base to the southeast is occupied, will get Kure this turn.

No sign of the Pearl Harbor KB.



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< Message edited by Lowpe -- 8/21/2020 9:11:43 PM >

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/21/2020 9:10:05 PM   
Lowpe


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Butchers Bill

If the Naka is down, that will be the 2nd IJN CL sunk so far.




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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/21/2020 9:51:39 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

How are you finding the two day turns Lowpe?


Made a few mistakes that cost ships because of them, but it is fairly easy to adapt.

Rewards cooperative actions. Probably benefits the defense more than offense, but it will allow some really funky offensive tactics which I will show off shortly.

Does speed up the game.



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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/22/2020 1:37:17 PM   
offenseman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

How are you finding the two day turns Lowpe?


Made a few mistakes that cost ships because of them, but it is fairly easy to adapt.

Rewards cooperative actions. Probably benefits the defense more than offense, but it will allow some really funky offensive tactics which I will show off shortly.

Does speed up the game.





Haven't played a one day turn game since WITP and in AE I've done over 2000 PBEM two day turns and can attest to that. There are a few things that can really bite you. A bad day one attack result that still leaves you with 1:1 odds. Day two also opens up opportunities to do certain timing oriented attacks/amphibs/anti-amphib operations. Especially for those that you may want the enemy's naval forces to be ammo poor(poorer anyway) on day two. CV air can use up sorties and gain fatigued pilots/unavailable planes blasting an invasion hex the day before your CVs arrive fresh and happy to do nasty things. One can do that in one day turns too, but the enemy can see what happens on day one and adjust. In two days turns they have nothing they can do unless they have already prepared for the possibility. Ambush opportunities abound.
IMHO two day turns benefits the defense as Lowpe said, especially during Japan's amphib bonus time. It slows game pacing but increases the pace for the human players. Personally I like them a lot due to the latter. That said, it only takes one bad die roll in an attack such as mentioned above that guts a big LCU stack, and sometimes day two in the air can be messy if certain thing happen on day one that a player would ground the units in a one day turn game. Sometimes passing a low chance check for a unit to fly may not be a good thing on day two...
Anyway, lots to consider in two day turns that are interesting, that one has to be cautious about, and as Lowpe said, have to use day two to one's advantage. :)

I am really looking forward to seeing what Lowpe has in mind here... :)



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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/23/2020 12:23:05 AM   
Lowpe


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Dec 23 and 34, 1942

Cats strike...IJA troopers drown.






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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/23/2020 12:28:59 AM   
Evoken

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Dec 23 and 34, 1942

Cats strike...IJA troopers drown.






Now thats a big haul

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/23/2020 1:05:54 AM   
RangerJoe


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Very nice. I have advocated judicious use of the Cat as a torpedo bomber.

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/23/2020 2:23:14 AM   
Lowpe


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Look, Biplanes!




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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/23/2020 2:30:56 AM   
Lowpe


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Butchers bill for the day

Alor Star falls...

Not much else of note...




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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/23/2020 2:33:26 AM   
Lowpe


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Japan has to be pursuing a misinformation plan here...which is kind of an advanced topic. If he can do this, why can't he set up some fighter cover?






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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/23/2020 4:35:25 AM   
awaw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: awaw
I tried routing some of the magic TFs into either Kuching/Singkawang. But they either gets roughed up by CD or air. Assuming we do not have KB hitting Singapore, is there a way to land in relative safety in turn 1?

There is no CD units in Singkawang in stock scenarios. If you want to land in a light-CD-protected base you just include some CL/CA into your amphibious force to draw fire and cover transports. Heavy CD - better do it some other way or bring overwhelming surface force

Sorry, I should have been more descriptive. [PS Lowpe, pardon my side-tracking]

If I were to target Kuching during opening moves, there is a chance the CD will wreck the amph transports, or with a CL, I sometimes get a bad roll with a heavily damaged CL (moderately high fires).

With Singkawang, sometimes the air based in Singapore sorties, again wrecking some important ships. Setting the FPs on cap only mitigates the damage a little. And then there is a 2nd turn air attack that we need to look into with the IJN ships now out of air cover.

Either way, I figured about 10~20% chance of losing something not indispensible (read an important xAK or CL).

My question was how do you guys get it done without KB air cover?

< Message edited by awaw -- 8/23/2020 4:43:49 AM >

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/23/2020 7:46:06 AM   
Encircled


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You have to do Singkawang or Kuching on your first day really

And you have to attrit the allied air from day one as well

Even some Petes or Jakes would at least stop undefended convoys getting battered as badly as this.

Its a long time since I played Japan, but the long range of the Zero is absolutely key in these early encounters (just like in RL really)

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/23/2020 8:30:23 AM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: awaw
Setting the FPs on cap only mitigates the damage a little.

Oh, but they do mess up air attacks.
Allies don't have long range fighters to escort bomber strikes far from Singers. Sure you can't rely on FPs when doing Mersing, also torpedo range is troubles too. But you can count on FPs scaring lone level bombers, assuming the weather is ok. And if it is not then Allied bombers will have a hard time placing their bombs anyway.

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/23/2020 12:18:18 PM   
Lowpe


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Dec 25, 1941

Spotted a large BB fleet with a CS headed towards Formosa north of Luzon?

Japan starts with close to 20 Rufes, which could be used easily to protect landings. Rufes start production in Jan of 1942 too.

This is a big turn, if not really too exciting, I guess it is a kind of sad turn too, I suspect if all goes well it will probably mean a very early Allied auto-victory. Probably would even if it just goes satisfactorily.

Scott simply isn't using any of his units well.

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/23/2020 12:34:08 PM   
awaw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista
Oh, but they do mess up air attacks.
Allies don't have long range fighters to escort bomber strikes far from Singers. Sure you can't rely on FPs when doing Mersing, also torpedo range is troubles too. But you can count on FPs scaring lone level bombers, assuming the weather is ok. And if it is not then Allied bombers will have a hard time placing their bombs anyway.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled
You have to do Singkawang or Kuching on your first day really
And you have to attrit the allied air from day one as well
Even some Petes or Jakes would at least stop undefended convoys getting battered as badly as this.
Its a long time since I played Japan, but the long range of the Zero is absolutely key in these early encounters (just like in RL really)

Ok, so the game plan is to use FPs as disruptive cover...... I did some trial runs, and some runs cost me an old CL. Is day 1 Singkawang worth a 20% chance of losing a CL among a few other misc shipping?

Zero max cover is 9 hex. Soc Trang is 15 hexes from Sinkawang, so until one gets Miri and then places Zero air cover from there (or use a CV/CVE etc) we are operating out of air cover.

Palembang/Singapore are 9/8 hexes from Sinkawang. A day 2 Allied counter-strike, supplemented should (have a reasonable chance to) cause some grievance to whatever IJN cover force that is retreating from Sinkawang. I appreciate the importance of taking Singkawang early, but will it be really bad if we take it in day 5~7 rather than on the first day? By day 3, if one were to take Miri on day 2, Kuching/Sinkawang will at least be on the extreme range of Zero cover?

(in reply to GetAssista)
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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/23/2020 12:42:27 PM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: awaw
Ok, so the game plan is to use FPs as disruptive cover...... I did some trial runs, and some runs cost me an old CL. Is day 1 Singkawang worth a 20% chance of losing a CL among a few other misc shipping?

You did not specify anything about settings and forces you used and draw universal conclusions? Not the way to refer to your tests methinks. There are several AVs at start, there are combat ships with several FPs that are relatively useless elsewhere. My FP cover works just fine against unescorted bombers all the time

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/23/2020 12:43:24 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: awaw


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista
Oh, but they do mess up air attacks.
Allies don't have long range fighters to escort bomber strikes far from Singers. Sure you can't rely on FPs when doing Mersing, also torpedo range is troubles too. But you can count on FPs scaring lone level bombers, assuming the weather is ok. And if it is not then Allied bombers will have a hard time placing their bombs anyway.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled
You have to do Singkawang or Kuching on your first day really
And you have to attrit the allied air from day one as well
Even some Petes or Jakes would at least stop undefended convoys getting battered as badly as this.
Its a long time since I played Japan, but the long range of the Zero is absolutely key in these early encounters (just like in RL really)

Ok, so the game plan is to use FPs as disruptive cover...... I did some trial runs, and some runs cost me an old CL. Is day 1 Singkawang worth a 20% chance of losing a CL among a few other misc shipping?

Zero max cover is 9 hex. Soc Trang is 15 hexes from Sinkawang, so until one gets Miri and then places Zero air cover from there (or use a CV/CVE etc) we are operating out of air cover.

Palembang/Singapore are 9/8 hexes from Sinkawang. A day 2 Allied counter-strike, supplemented should (have a reasonable chance to) cause some grievance to whatever IJN cover force that is retreating from Sinkawang. I appreciate the importance of taking Singkawang early, but will it be really bad if we take it in day 5~7 rather than on the first day? By day 3, if one were to take Miri on day 2, Kuching/Sinkawang will at least be on the extreme range of Zero cover?


False on so many levels. Simply put your tactics are faulty.

Most Japanese fighters at well supplied bases can fly at extended range using drop tanks, you need to toggle it on or off.

The only threat from Sinkawang or Kuching on the first day is if Force Z if it shows up. I guess maybe a small CL might show up too, but Japan has the forces to counter too.

You should not lose anything except the odd Dutch sub and those threats can be be minimized too.




< Message edited by Lowpe -- 8/23/2020 12:44:28 PM >

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/23/2020 12:50:29 PM   
Lowpe


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With Christmas here, and Singapore and Palembang unthreatened currently, supply flowing in to the key fronts of China, Burma, Malaya, Sumatra, Midway, …..

the heavy reinforcement convoy holding 4 hexes off Wake accelerates to flank speed to unload infantry, AA, armor, and supplies at Wake Island screened only by submarines and a dozen Catalinas. The IJ have zero detection on anything.

Phase two has started with protection being provided only by submarines and the aforementioned Catalinas.

Phase three is simply awaiting the arrival of tankers and oilers which are 1-2 days out. Troops are loading today and steaming west.

Numerous Allied SAGs are patiently awaiting their chances of Ambush...while the Mauritius decides to take her destroyers and strike Kuching.

It was a banner day for reinforcement groups including more Banshees and Hurricanes at Capetown.


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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/23/2020 12:56:38 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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Why on earth he sent 2 ocean liners, the biggest available, to Iba??? that is a really stupid move,

it is also and exploitation of the Japanese early amphibious bonus, there is no way on earth they could have unloaded at a quick rate unless docked at port

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/23/2020 12:59:39 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

This is a big turn, if not really too exciting, I guess it is a kind of sad turn too, I suspect if all goes well it will probably mean a very early Allied auto-victory. Probably would even if it just goes satisfactorily.

Scott simply isn't using any of his units well.


by auto-victory, do you mean your opponent conceding defeat? I don't see you can get an early auto-victory otherwise

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/23/2020 1:00:08 PM   
Q-Ball


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Dec 23 and 34, 1942

Cats strike...IJA troopers drown.







The other issue with this: Why pack so many troops, 13,000, on 2 transports? On transports that are way too big to unload on Luzon at this point?

There's enough shipping for the Empire to spread it out, and anyway any troops being sent to Luzon should be in Amphib mode right now, because there isn't a decent port available.

That's also puzzling

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/23/2020 1:06:58 PM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Why on earth he sent 2 ocean liners, the biggest available, to Iba??? that is a really stupid move,

it is also and exploitation of the Japanese early amphibious bonus, there is no way on earth they could have unloaded at a quick rate unless docked at port

3 of those 21 speed liners can handle a whole division, this trinity is like a Queen type for the Japanese. I try to never put them in harms way, they are the best long range troop express Japan will ever have. That "exploitation" is actually a boon to the Allies because of the opportunity to kill those ships.

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)
Post #: 984
RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/23/2020 1:12:55 PM   
awaw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista


quote:

ORIGINAL: awaw
Ok, so the game plan is to use FPs as disruptive cover...... I did some trial runs, and some runs cost me an old CL. Is day 1 Singkawang worth a 20% chance of losing a CL among a few other misc shipping?

You did not specify anything about settings and forces you used and draw universal conclusions? Not the way to refer to your tests methinks. There are several AVs at start, there are combat ships with several FPs that are relatively useless elsewhere. My FP cover works just fine against unescorted bombers all the time

Running off the runs I did in the past.... I was using the starting naval forces at Cam Ranh Bay. 1 AV with 6ish FPs, 100% cap, altitude 8000. Combat replay shows the CAP intercepting. I am asking these questions as part of a learning journey, since obviously I have knowledge gaps......

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/23/2020 1:16:42 PM   
Lowpe


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I put up a graphic in the open thread about this disaster, it would be really helpful if you could point some of this stuff out to Scout1 by commenting there.

Many thanks.

(in reply to awaw)
Post #: 986
RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/23/2020 1:41:47 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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The 3 Asama marus are great for liners, should be used to "transport" troops from the HI to big important ports like Singapore, Bangkok or Soerabaja

For me the question is should I escort them?
they have a fast cruise speed that get reduced significantly if I attach DDs
this is even more pronounced on the QEs... they cruise comfortably at speeds that for other ships would be flank





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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/23/2020 1:57:50 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

The 3 Asama marus are great for liners, should be used to "transport" troops from the HI to big important ports like Singapore, Bangkok or Soerabaja

For me the question is should I escort them?
they have a fast cruise speed that get reduced significantly if I attach DDs
this is even more pronounced on the QEs... they cruise comfortably at speeds that for other ships would be flank

Even though the speed of The Queen is really great, in an early game I found her still quite vulnerable to IJN subs. Maybe just a minor game shortcoming.

So, yes, I would escort them unless they are transiting places you are quite certain are free of enemy subs.

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Post #: 988
RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/23/2020 2:02:27 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

The 3 Asama marus are great for liners, should be used to "transport" troops from the HI to big important ports like Singapore, Bangkok or Soerabaja

For me the question is should I escort them?
they have a fast cruise speed that get reduced significantly if I attach DDs
this is even more pronounced on the QEs... they cruise comfortably at speeds that for other ships would be flank

Even though the speed of The Queen is really great, in an early game I found her still quite vulnerable to IJN subs. Maybe just a minor game shortcoming.

So, yes, I would escort them unless they are transiting places you are quite certain are free of enemy subs.


Her starting Captain is horrible and starting crew experience beyond horrible.

(in reply to witpqs)
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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/23/2020 2:03:11 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

This is a big turn, if not really too exciting, I guess it is a kind of sad turn too, I suspect if all goes well it will probably mean a very early Allied auto-victory. Probably would even if it just goes satisfactorily.

Scott simply isn't using any of his units well.


by auto-victory, do you mean your opponent conceding defeat? I don't see you can get an early auto-victory otherwise


Although the former may happen, I specifically meant the latter.

Oh, ye of little faith.

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)
Post #: 990
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