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RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 7:30:36 AM

TIMJOT

Posts: 1822
Joined: 4/30/2001
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quote:

A good jap player will bomb you, but most of your troops would get ashore (singapore might be easier, but is a few hexes closer to the enemy that are probably based in brunei by the time your transports arrive). Of course, you will loose many transports doing this - and loose even more transports when the IJN arrives and catched you unlaoding, but by then you can have some extra troops on malaya.

No doubt that they way it is in the game. As I said due to the over effectiveness of LBA against shipping, be it level bombing or the seemingly endless supply of torpedos for those Betty/Nells.

If thats the way it is thats the way the game will have to be played I guess, but like I said it does not represent the historic situation.

Thanks for the insite

(in reply to Luskan)

Post #: 361

RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 7:37:20 AM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
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Tim, you are dealing with historical use of troops. We are free to use whatever we want. Don't get hung up on the issue.

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 362

RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 7:50:39 AM

Raverdave

Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
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TIMJOT,

Mate I respect your views, h3ll, you are one of the few people that I always take note of, but I have to say that to my knowledge, none of the testers have ever really tried to save Singapore. I certainly know that from my perspective I also ways try to save as many troops as I can to be used in other places, saving Singapore is just not high on my list of things to do. So Singapore might well be able to be held until the 15th of Feb if a player wishes to try, and I might add that you will very soon have the chance to try this out

_____________________________

Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to TIMJOT)

Post #: 363

RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 7:52:44 AM

TIMJOT

Posts: 1822
Joined: 4/30/2001
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Tim, you are dealing with historical use of troops. We are free to use whatever we want. Don't get hung up on the issue.

Dont mean to get hung up on it. I have no problem with say... Mogami getting better results by using extra force (4 divisions). Its just this notion that Singapore is doomed no matter what, even if its less force applied at a later date. And as far as I can tell Singapore has never lasted to even its historic date in every AAR I have seen. I just want to understand why it should be so difficult to reinforce Singapore when historically it was done right up to its fall. In fact it should be fairly difficult to prevent supplies from getting thru, hence the need to take the base quickly as possible. Why do you think the 25th Army was by far the largest of all the Southern area armies? In fact almost as big as the 3 other armies put together

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 364

RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 7:54:03 AM

Luskan

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
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It raises the opposite question however.
If the jap player only invaded with what they did historically - would singapore even fall? To be honest, I don't think so - but then that would be less ahistoric?

_____________________________

With dancing Bananas and Storm Troopers who needs BBs?

(in reply to Raverdave)

Post #: 365

RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 7:57:53 AM

TIMJOT

Posts: 1822
Joined: 4/30/2001
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

TIMJOT,

Mate I respect your views, h3ll, you are one of the few people that I always take note of, but I have to say that to my knowledge, none of the testers have ever really tried to save Singapore. I certainly know that from my perspective I also ways try to save as many troops as I can to be used in other places, saving Singapore is just not high on my list of things to do. So Singapore might well be able to be held until the 15th of Feb if a player wishes to try, and I might add that you will very soon have the chance to try this out

Fair enough Raver. I would be very interested to see a test of someone trying hold Singapore just for kicks. Have the IJN player use historic force at historic landing sites ( No early Kuantan or Mersing short cuts ) just to see what happens. Hell maybe Singapore will fall on Feb 15th and all will be right in the world again

Thanks again for your reply

(in reply to Raverdave)

Post #: 366

RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 7:58:03 AM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
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From: Purgatory
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I just asked Mog if he wants to take me on with the historic version ... see if he's interested. You will see a dramatic difference in the aar's posted with historic vs "we're smarter and we know better" versions of the game.

(in reply to Luskan)

Post #: 367

RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 8:07:12 AM

TIMJOT

Posts: 1822
Joined: 4/30/2001
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

I just asked Mog if he wants to take me on with the historic version ... see if he's interested. You will see a dramatic difference in the aar's posted with historic vs "we're smarter and we know better" versions of the game.

Great... look forward to it. Thanks

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 368

RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 8:16:46 AM

Raverdave

Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
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Hey Banana boy....looks like we are going to break our old UV AAR record of 11,000 views

_____________________________

Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to TIMJOT)

Post #: 369

RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 8:27:08 AM

mogami

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From: You can't get here from there
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Hi, When I have the allies I never pull a single troop out of Malaya. I try to move more in.
I want to hold Singapore as long a I can. (Its a nice place for bombers)

Every day the Japanese are fighting for the SRA is a day they can't be causing trouble else where.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 5/13/2004 1:29:05 AM >

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Raverdave)

Post #: 370

RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 8:33:24 AM

mogami

Posts: 12789
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From: You can't get here from there
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

I just asked Mog if he wants to take me on with the historic version ... see if he's interested. You will see a dramatic difference in the aar's posted with historic vs "we're smarter and we know better" versions of the game.

Hi, OK I'll do a turn 1. I'm going to make it a standing start. No landings at all on Dec 7. All transports will begin loading on Dec 8th. Only historical landings will be made for first 2 weeks.

Or if you want I'll be Allies. ANd you can do what you want but I never run from SRA.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 5/13/2004 1:37:25 AM >

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 371

RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 9:03:01 AM

Brady

Posts: 10701
Joined: 10/25/2002
From: Oregon,USA
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Man I cant wait to get the game and start a PBEM game or two, all these AAR are like foreplay, and I am realy neading a release now

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 372

RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 9:35:39 AM

bradfordkay

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
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I guess that you'll just havbe to settle for UV right now. The new girlfriend will be along in a few weeks... treat the old girl nicely for now, okay?

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to Brady)

Post #: 373

Historical Fuel available - 5/13/2004 11:59:25 AM

Pascal_slith

Posts: 1651
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From: back in Commiefornia
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OK, here's the information I've compiled about bunker fuel availability for the US and Australian Navy in the Pacific around December-January 1942.

There are a number of sources that are quite explicit. Here are some easy ones to get:

Pacific War Revisited, Bischof and Dupont ed., article in book 'Fuel and US Naval Operations' by Daniel Blewett

Pearl Harbor Attack Hearings, these are the official hearings by various commissions, available online at www.ibiblio.org

Beans, Bullets and Black Oil by Adm. Worrall Carter

Oil Logistics in the Pacific by Patrick Donovan (PDF file available at www.dtic.mil ; check the 'Technical Reports Database' here, this is unclassified info. Lots of studies of WWII and other wars.)

US Naval Logisitcs in the Pacific War by David Ballantine

I am assuming you are using long tons for the fuel supply points, as this is what is usually quoted for the fuel capacity of ships.

I've rounded figures to nearest thousand.

Pearl Harbor - 4 million barrels at 7.45 barrels per long ton = 437'000 tons
Noumea - 0 tons
Brisbane - 12'000 tons
Sydney - 8'000 tons
Melbourne - 8'000 tons
Port Moresby - 0 tons

Other South Pacific ports (Tongatabu, Suva, Bora Bora, etc.) - 0 tons. The first of these bases was not operational until February at the earliest.

Available in the tankers of the US Fleet in the Pacific - approx. 760'000 barrels = 102'000 tons

location of oilers on Dec. 7th: 2 in Pearl, 3 at sea, 6 in West Coast ports, 2 at Cavite. Only 4 could refuel at sea.

Stock available along the West Coast in oil company storage - 44 million barrels = 5'908'000 tons

As you see, other than Pearl Harbor and of course along the West Coast, not much fuel was available elsewhere in the Pacific (sorry, I don't have the figure for Cavite).

Exact data for different times and all the bases in the Pacific is available in the 'Admiral Nimitz Command Summary: Running Estimate, 1941-1945'. These should be available on microfiche through inter-library loan at any good university library.

< Message edited by Pascal -- 5/13/2004 9:23:18 PM >

_____________________________

So much WitP and so little time to play.... :-(

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 374

RE: Historical Fuel available - 5/13/2004 1:11:48 PM

stubby331

Posts: 268
Joined: 10/24/2001
From: Perth, Western Australia
Status: offline

Pascal,

You are a bloody legend.

Well Done.

Question is. Will these figures be adopted. (I'm assuming so, seeing as Joel already asked the question in the first place.)

(in reply to Pascal_slith)

Post #: 375

RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 4:13:20 PM

Andy Mac

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

I just asked Mog if he wants to take me on with the historic version ... see if he's interested. You will see a dramatic difference in the aar's posted with historic vs "we're smarter and we know better" versions of the game.

Hi, OK I'll do a turn 1. I'm going to make it a standing start. No landings at all on Dec 7. All transports will begin loading on Dec 8th. Only historical landings will be made for first 2 weeks.

Or if you want I'll be Allies. ANd you can do what you want but I never run from SRA.

Should be an interesting experiment to see how long Allies can cling on if they defend and dont try to evac. (which I admit was my normal Pacwar strategy)

From what ive read so far I suspect it wont be that far off of normal timetable but I could be wrong.....

I guess the decision to hold or evac will to some extent depend on what kind of airpower the Allies have in Singapore at start of game and in terms of game mechanics if overrun during its fall will the airgroups lost return as replacements in due course or will they be lost forever ?

Im assuming its Swordfish Buffalos and possibly a few Blenheims and other obselete types in low numbers.

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 376

RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 4:28:36 PM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
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quote:

I guess the decision to hold or evac will to some extent depend on what kind of airpower the Allies have in Singapore at start of game and in terms of game mechanics if overrun during its fall will the airgroups lost return as replacements in due course or will they be lost forever ?

There *was* lots of air power, but with the opening attack against Singapore's airfield, and bombardment against Khota, most of the power is gone. Against A6M's, the Allies are badly outclassed to say the least. Against no air cover, they are not too bad, but it is really about nit picking away at Japan. You do not have enough aircraft or air support to have mass power, you end up with little groups scattered at each base.

Assume the sky belongs to Japan until '43 or until you can deploy the USMC groups of F4F's in numbers (but they are pretty green when they show up).

The Brits get some Spit's and can bring pressure down from India, but by then it is far too late.

(in reply to Andy Mac)

Post #: 377

RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 4:54:30 PM

TIMJOT

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Joined: 4/30/2001
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, When I have the allies I never pull a single troop out of Malaya. I try to move more in.
I want to hold Singapore as long a I can. (Its a nice place for bombers)

Every day the Japanese are fighting for the SRA is a day they can't be causing trouble else where.

Mogami, thats basically the possible alternative strategy that I was advocateing. Not saying it should be able to hold out indefinitely, Just that if the Japanese player doesnt excersises due dilegence the harder it should be. I suppose it only really makes sense if the historic reinforcement arrivals are represented.

Thanks for testing this

Regards

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 378

RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 5:21:05 PM

Luskan

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
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Well, Raver seems to have bailed out of Darwin fairly quick. I sent in a little firepower and blew a fair bit of it off the map last night (killed 400 troops, took out 13 planes on the ground and I think got a few hits on the aks in port) in return the CD unit put a big hoel in one of my dds (I don't think she'll make it).

Guess the next bombardment will have to hit perth?

_____________________________

With dancing Bananas and Storm Troopers who needs BBs?

(in reply to TIMJOT)

Post #: 379

RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 5:55:09 PM

Andy Mac

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From: Alexandria, Scotland
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Thanks for the response

Do any no evacuated airgroups in Singapore return if they are over run in the final fall of Singapore or are they permanently lost ?

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 380

RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 8:53:46 PM

mogami

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Hi, My system is simple. As long as I have airfields that will allow my airgroups to exit the SRA when the time comes they stay and fight. I turn off replacements and as groups lose combat power they disband filling up the groups that remain. (disbanded groups return in 90 days)
The Allied player has to pick his spots and not be caught when the Japanese react. If your beating up the IJA expect the A6M2 to show up and be ready to break off combat and move to a new location. If the IJN sends 1 Daitai send 2 parts of the AVG to oppose.
Your numbers should make up for other factors. Don't be bull headed. If the Japanese insisit on air superority at any location conceed it and move to another area. You can hurt the Japanese and the battle lasts for several months so there is no hurry. Withdraw units that need time to rest and rebuild.
Also pay attention to airgroup leadership. Don't engage in combat with units commanded by poor leaders. Place your AA on your airfields. (and any target the Japanese grow fond of hitting.) Let the AA kill Japanese and save your fighters for battles you can win.
By keeping up a good defense where you can you limit the number of airgroups the Japanese can transfer out of the SRA.

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Andy Mac)

Post #: 381

RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/13/2004 9:48:26 PM

fabertong

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From: Bristol, England, U.K.
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I don't know about the rest of you, but I really am taking notes.....Thanks Mogami

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 382

RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/14/2004 2:54:16 AM

Raverdave

Posts: 6520
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From: Melb. Australia
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Well seeing as I never got my turn from Luskan last night, I guess that I will just have to grandstand and tell you all how wonderful I as an Allied supreme commander

The fact that Luskan has reported nothing in regards to the PI, Malaya or even China speaks volumes, and I suspect that he has stalled on all fronts. But until I get the move there is not much more that I can crow about..........oh, did I tell you all how wonderful I am?

_____________________________

Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to fabertong)

Post #: 383

RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/14/2004 3:45:14 AM

Mike Scholl

Posts: 9349
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From: Kansas City, MO
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OK RAVER, I think we can all concede the "wonderfullness" of you. After all, your Mom
told you you were "special", and we all know Mom wouldn't lie. Actually, what convin-
ced me was your "tag line". I've always loved that. Where did you run across it?

(in reply to Raverdave)

Post #: 384

RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/14/2004 3:46:32 AM

stubby331

Posts: 268
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From: Perth, Western Australia
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Hi Frag,

Any chance of seeing a screenshot of Nell coverage over the rest of the DEI from Saigon and maybe even Kendari??

Be very grateful.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 385

RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/14/2004 4:32:10 AM

mogami

Posts: 12789
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From: You can't get here from there
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Hi, It will not fit on a screen shot. The normal range is 15 hexes and extended range is 21.
Thats larger then the screen

The red line is extended the black normal the air group is located at Saigon.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Mogami -- 5/13/2004 9:41:46 PM >

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to stubby331)

Post #: 386

RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/14/2004 4:40:47 AM

stubby331

Posts: 268
Joined: 10/24/2001
From: Perth, Western Australia
Status: offline

Thanks Mogs, so I could just pretty much assume all of the DEI with the exception of the island chain east of Lombok is covered by Nells out of Saigon and when Kendari comes on line for the Japs your pretty much screwed?

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 387

RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/14/2004 4:41:17 AM

Raverdave

Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline

G'day Mike,

The sig line is just one of those things that you come across when trawling the net........most probably came from that famous font of one liners, Mr Anon.

_____________________________

Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 388

RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/14/2004 4:44:28 AM

mogami

Posts: 12789
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From: You can't get here from there
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stubby331

Thanks Mogs, so I could just pretty much assume all of the DEI with the exception of the island chain east of Lombok is covered by Nells out of Saigon and when Kendari comes on line for the Japs your pretty much screwed?

Hi, There are Betty/Nell on Formosa. Davao is a size 4 airfield as is Jolo. (and Aparri and Legaspi) So there are plenty of fields to base them on that cover most of the SRA.
I like to occupy the size 4 airfields as soon as I can. Then I move 1 Betty/Nell group along with a fighter group. You can use the smaller airfields (size 3 or less) for fighters for CAP as well as single engine bombers (carrier types)

< Message edited by Mogami -- 5/13/2004 9:46:13 PM >

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to stubby331)

Post #: 389

RE: South Pacific Bums Rush - 5/14/2004 4:50:17 AM

stubby331

Posts: 268
Joined: 10/24/2001
From: Perth, Western Australia
Status: offline

quote:

Davao is a size 4 airfield as is Jolo. (and Aparri and Legaspi) So there are plenty of fields to base them on that cover most of the SRA.
I like to occupy the size 4 airfields as soon as I can. Then I move 1 Betty/Nell group along with a fighter group. You can use the smaller airfields (size 3 or less) for fighters for CAP as well as single engine bombers (carrier types)

thanks again.

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 390

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