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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> RE: Quick update on development progress.

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RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 11:48:19 PM

freeboy

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline

hello kaleun,
Aren;t you glad it isn't a hundred copies each sold on auction.. that would be ugly

(in reply to GameTester)

Post #: 181

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 11:54:35 PM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kaleun

Considering the length of the turns, the length of the game, I would not buy thisd game if it was one of those pay as you go kind of games. I would be concerned about the site that runs it going under.
On the other hand, I would pay $100 for the game. Probably $110... well may be even $150 but I would want a map with it

I think both have a niche. You offer the complete game (server and a client) for a fixed price ($70-100) for those that have no multi-player desires. That version plays like the one that will soon ship. But a subscription based service or even a tiered subscription level based on how deeply involved in the minutia you want to be for players desiring a better multi-player interface than e-mail based stuff. Not only that, a server based model could offer true MULTI player games where each player could represent a theator field commander, central commander, production minister, etc... for each side, or one player the British in CBI, one the American, one the Chinese, one the Japanese Army commanding the CBI forces, one Yamamoto, etc.... That sort of thing....

(in reply to kaleun)

Post #: 182

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 11:55:57 PM

kaleun

Posts: 5145
Joined: 5/29/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline

That would be ugly indeed!
I am taking a long flight in August, and all I have to say is: IT BETTER BE READY BY THEN! or I'll just have to sabotage the Matrix until I get back! (With extreme prejudice)

_____________________________

Appear at places to which he must hasten; move swiftly where he does not expect you.
Sun Tzu

(in reply to freeboy)

Post #: 183

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/15/2004 12:07:59 AM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline

quote:

The serious wargamer will get many hundreds of hours of play out of the thing.

You mean out of the *first* turn, not the entire game

(in reply to GameTester)

Post #: 184

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/15/2004 12:11:28 AM

Grotius

Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline

I have no problem with the price of WiTP.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 185

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/15/2004 12:16:53 AM

ASHBERY76

Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

I have no problem with the price of WiTP.

A limited amount of these boards might not, but what about the average guy who might have wanted a game about the pacific? there will say "no thanks" to a very,very high priced game.

(in reply to Grotius)

Post #: 186

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/15/2004 12:23:22 AM

GameTester

Posts: 156
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

I have no problem with the price of WiTP.

A limited amount of these boards might not, but what about the average guy who might have wanted a game about the pacific? there will say "no thanks" to a very,very high priced game.

The average guy should probably buy a different game. He won't like this one. Hopefully they lower the price on UV after WiTP is released, that could serve as a cheaper alternative for the beginner.

(in reply to ASHBERY76)

Post #: 187

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/15/2004 2:05:07 AM

Bob L

Posts: 6
Joined: 11/1/2003
Status: offline

I've been following this game for a couple of years now, dropping by every week or so to try to find when it's going to be released. That info has been hard to find in this forum. This thread seemed to be a godsend! Problem is it's getting cluttered with a lot of other stuff now with little to do with when I can get my hands on the darned game! Please give more updates or reassurances on when we'll be able to buy! Is it still on track for 6/24? Daily updates would be nice. Hourly would be better!!

_____________________________

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 188

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/15/2004 2:55:34 AM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline

No change on the release. It hasn't slipped *yet*

(in reply to Bob L)

Post #: 189

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/15/2004 3:36:21 AM

GBirkn

Posts: 249
Joined: 5/6/2004
From: the briny deep
Status: offline

Nine days and a wake-up, as we used to say. We're getting so short we'll need a step-ladder to climb up onto the sidewalk!

_____________________________

"War is the remedy our enemies have chosen, and I say let's give them all they want." -- Gen. W. T. Sherman

(in reply to Bob L)

Post #: 190

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/15/2004 5:46:20 AM

Damien Thorn

Posts: 1107
Joined: 7/24/2003
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GameTester
The average guy should probably buy a different game. He won't like this one.

That's a bit elitist, don't you think? Give the average guy a little more credit than that. WitP will have a lot of stuff going on but its not like its hard to learn the controls. It's also not like the average person won't learn to beat the AI within the first game or two.

(in reply to GameTester)

Post #: 191

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/15/2004 5:51:37 AM

Fallschirmjager

Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline

The average guy wont ever make it though a single game...

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Post #: 192

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/15/2004 6:20:33 AM

GameTester

Posts: 156
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn

quote:

ORIGINAL: GameTester
The average guy should probably buy a different game. He won't like this one.

That's a bit elitist, don't you think? Give the average guy a little more credit than that. WitP will have a lot of stuff going on but its not like its hard to learn the controls. It's also not like the average person won't learn to beat the AI within the first game or two.

No, I have to disagree. The average guy doesn't want to sit in front of his computer for months on end so he can fight the entire War in the Pacific on a pilot by pilot basis. This only sounds like a good time to the 'special' guy.

(in reply to Damien Thorn)

Post #: 193

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/15/2004 6:30:54 AM

siRkid

Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GameTester

quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

I have no problem with the price of WiTP.

A limited amount of these boards might not, but what about the average guy who might have wanted a game about the pacific? there will say "no thanks" to a very,very high priced game.

The average guy should probably buy a different game. He won't like this one. Hopefully they lower the price on UV after WiTP is released, that could serve as a cheaper alternative for the beginner.

If it was my call, I would sell UV at half price as a good way to get players intrested in WitP.

_____________________________

Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.

(in reply to GameTester)

Post #: 194

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/15/2004 7:08:53 AM

denisonh

Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Upstate SC
Status: offline

Look at the "age" thread.

You will find the AVERAGE age of the guys on the forum is over 40.

Now, WHAT is the average gamer that YOU are talking about? WHO is he compared to that population?

quote:

ORIGINAL: GameTester

quote:

ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn

quote:

ORIGINAL: GameTester
The average guy should probably buy a different game. He won't like this one.

That's a bit elitist, don't you think? Give the average guy a little more credit than that. WitP will have a lot of stuff going on but its not like its hard to learn the controls. It's also not like the average person won't learn to beat the AI within the first game or two.

No, I have to disagree. The average guy doesn't want to sit in front of his computer for months on end so he can fight the entire War in the Pacific on a pilot by pilot basis. This only sounds like a good time to the 'special' guy.

_____________________________

"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC

(in reply to GameTester)

Post #: 195

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/15/2004 7:16:43 AM

Dukemourn

Posts: 50
Joined: 6/11/2004
Status: offline

I'd be happy to pay $70 for any GG game. I've had nearly all of them....this one promises to be the best of all by a wide margin. I want it bad enough to pay $500 (maybe more) if that was the price and drive to 900 miles to Columbus on the 23rd to make sure I got it quickly.

I'll play it like I always play them. Set it on max realism and difficulty, read the manual over and over, maybe take two weeks to do my first turn, get my rear end kicked by the AI early because of inexperience (just like real commanders) and play it to the end. Then I'll play again and see how much I improve.

(in reply to siRkid)

Post #: 196

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/15/2004 7:24:21 AM

GameTester

Posts: 156
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Look at the "age" thread.

You will find the AVERAGE age of the guys on the forum is over 40.

Now, WHAT is the average gamer that YOU are talking about? WHO is he compared to that population?

The average guy doesn't refer to people who are on these boards. This is about those who aren't interested in this project at this time . The question as I see it is whether dropping the price down $20-$30 brings in enough new faces to makeup for the lost revenue from the old faces.

The right move would be to create a short demo, then any average guy who has an interest can try it out for a spin. If they got hooked, they will gladly lay out the $70. If it's not for them, they move on.

< Message edited by GameTester -- 6/15/2004 12:24:17 AM >

(in reply to denisonh)

Post #: 197

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/15/2004 7:44:52 AM

denisonh

Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Upstate SC
Status: offline

One thing to keep in mind that the this game has a certain market.

And at least for initial distribution, the "average guy" ain't it.

Mass marketing games for the "average guy" killed the games for the "grognard" market.

Too much "Cheez Whiz" and not enough substance. I NEVER owned a game that I played for TWO YEARS straight until I played UV. That game has gotten so so reviews and been marginized in reviews meant for consumption by the "average guy". Most guys on this forum will tell you it is a true gem in PBEM and did nothing more than whet their appetite for WitP.

Matrix is challenging the "form over substance" common in the "average" wargames, and brought some quality gaming back to a specific market demographic: Old Fart Grognards.

Average is just that: average. Average is for the gamer whose games last 3 months on the hard drive. Not this crowd.

Matrix is above average and so is the market demographic that is interested in WitP.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GameTester

quote:

Look at the "age" thread.

You will find the AVERAGE age of the guys on the forum is over 40.

Now, WHAT is the average gamer that YOU are talking about? WHO is he compared to that population?

The average guy doesn't refer to people who are on these boards. This is about those who aren't interested in this project at this time . The question as I see it is whether dropping the price down $20-$30 brings in enough new faces to makeup for the lost revenue from the old faces.

The right move would be to create a short demo, then any average guy who has an interest can try it out for a spin. If they got hooked, they will gladly lay out the $70. If it's not for them, they move on.

< Message edited by denisonh -- 6/15/2004 12:45:26 AM >

_____________________________

"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC

(in reply to GameTester)

Post #: 198

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/15/2004 9:42:28 AM

rawink

Posts: 194
Joined: 4/30/2002
From: Tallahassee, FL
Status: offline

I consider myself a gamer.. I like Flight Sims.. I don't pay more than $49 for one.. regardless of how good, because a newer, better one will be out next year. In the past few years eye candy has become more important than physics and long term playability. Random mission generators don't make it anymore.. so you geta linear campaign that is played out after you learn the tricks and puzzle solving of the campaign. Sure that impossible mission is a pchallenge the first 3 times.. but then it's cake. I HATE that. Janes Longbow 2 had a dynamic campaign where what you did affected the campaign in real time. Ala Falcon 4.0.. Falcon was worth $100 in it's day.. "Generic flgiht Sim 2004" isn't worth it..

I have all 3 of the Steel Panthers games.. the first is bit dated now, and doesn't appear on the hard drive now.. but 2 and 3 both do. But my favorite Steel Panthers game is the Steel panthers: MBT hack done by SP-Camo I literally play 40 hours a month on it. All for free.. it's about the experience and REPLAY ability to me. I have started maybe 200 games of UV.. finished maybe 30 of them in the last few years. It has INFINITE replay ability. I have no doubt I will be playing WITP in 5 years, unless they come out with a world wide version covering the globe with all Navies and air forces!!! (DROOL)!

So paying $100 or even a bit more for that kind of replay ability to me is a great bargain! 3 games at $49 that will bore me in 3 months.. vs $100 for a game I will play 80-100 hours a month for 6 months straight? what a bargain!

_____________________________

Robert
Fly, die.. rinse and repeat

(in reply to denisonh)

Post #: 199

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/15/2004 3:06:00 PM

tsimmonds

Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline

This is the game I've been waiting for for 20 years. In 1985 I paid $220 for an unpunched WitP. I would certainly pay that much for this game now.

I look at it this way; I may never need to buy another game....

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Fear the kitten!

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Post #: 200

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/15/2004 3:40:57 PM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline

quote:

I look at it this way; I may never need to buy another game....

Interesting point. I know I have had to turn down 3 other beta requests because I just don't have the time. Apart from Sierra's Homeworld 2 (which took the weekend to play and cost $69) there has really been nothing else. There are only two games installed on my machine and that is pretty scary. HTTR & WitP. HTTR is my stress relief when WitP gets to me and I need a break. I don't see anything else coming out this year that interests me at all. I'll check out 2by3's WoW, but it's probably not my cup of tea.

(in reply to tsimmonds)

Post #: 201

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/15/2004 4:04:48 PM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Interesting point. I know I have had to turn down 3 other beta requests because I just don't have the time. Apart from Sierra's Homeworld 2 (which took the weekend to play and cost $69) there has really been nothing else. There are only two games installed on my machine and that is pretty scary. HTTR & WitP. HTTR is my stress relief when WitP gets to me and I need a break. I don't see anything else coming out this year that interests me at all. I'll check out 2by3's WoW, but it's probably not my cup of tea.

And HTTR's child Create Invasion (is it due this year)?

Leo "Apollo11"

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 202

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/15/2004 4:28:57 PM

John B

Posts: 100
Joined: 6/7/2004
Status: offline

$70 (about, what, �40 here in the UK?) seems about right to me. We are very much a niche market in the world of PC gaming as a whole, and no company catering for us if ever going to get the mass sales which others do. Someone made a good point about how many games most of us are likely to buy in the course of a year. In my case WiP will be the first this year, and speaking from memory of what other new games are likely this year, I only see myself buying "Battles in Normandy" and maybe "Rome Total War", if my PC specs are up to that. So taken as part of my total likely spending in 12 months, the price isn't bad at all.

John

(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 203

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/15/2004 4:33:10 PM

kev_uk

Posts: 288
Joined: 6/5/2004
From: South Wales, UK
Status: offline

I guess it pretty good. Even UV was not that expensive (well not here in UK), just really a top priced game.
My biggest worry is a poor AI, but I am just getting into PBEM with UV and its a lot of fun.

(in reply to John B)

Post #: 204

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/15/2004 4:48:40 PM

dwesolick

Posts: 593
Joined: 6/24/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: denisonh

And at least for initial distribution, the "average guy" ain't it.

The "average guy" isn't even aware that there was a (real) War in the Pacific.

_____________________________

"The Navy has a moth-eaten tradition that the captain who loses his ship is disgraced. What do they have all those ships for, if not to hurl them at the enemy?" --Douglas MacArthur

(in reply to denisonh)

Post #: 205

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/15/2004 5:06:06 PM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawink

I consider myself a gamer.. I like Flight Sims.. I don't pay more than $49 for one.. regardless of how good, because a newer, better one will be out next year. In the past few years eye candy has become more important than physics and long term playability. Random mission generators don't make it anymore.. so you geta linear campaign that is played out after you learn the tricks and puzzle solving of the campaign. Sure that impossible mission is a pchallenge the first 3 times.. but then it's cake. I HATE that. Janes Longbow 2 had a dynamic campaign where what you did affected the campaign in real time. Ala Falcon 4.0.. Falcon was worth $100 in it's day.. "Generic flgiht Sim 2004" isn't worth it..

I have all 3 of the Steel Panthers games.. the first is bit dated now, and doesn't appear on the hard drive now.. but 2 and 3 both do. But my favorite Steel Panthers game is the Steel panthers: MBT hack done by SP-Camo I literally play 40 hours a month on it. All for free.. it's about the experience and REPLAY ability to me. I have started maybe 200 games of UV.. finished maybe 30 of them in the last few years. It has INFINITE replay ability. I have no doubt I will be playing WITP in 5 years, unless they come out with a world wide version covering the globe with all Navies and air forces!!! (DROOL)!

So paying $100 or even a bit more for that kind of replay ability to me is a great bargain! 3 games at $49 that will bore me in 3 months.. vs $100 for a game I will play 80-100 hours a month for 6 months straight? what a bargain!

Pretty good take here. Yes, it has always been the "REPLAYABILITY" that gives value to a game, IMHO. And for those of us that do not typically participate in the multi-player arena, the AI makes or breaks the "replayability" of a game. For most turn based wargames, once you make through a scenario the first time, that's pretty much it. You have the AI completely figured out. The computer is pretty much going to send the same forces, configured the same way, to the same places at about the same time every time through the scenario. For me, that was UV. The enemy carriers ALWAYS show up with a CV, CV, CVL configuration in roughly the same place at the same time every time. So once you figure that out, you sit a 4 CV "death star" in that spot and wait. You also know the AI is ALWAYS going to send those little bombardment TF's to Lunga (American computer) or PM (Japanese Computer) every week or so, so you just position a CV, CVL TF and sink them every time until they run out of surface ship! And then go about winning the scenario. BORING!!! No replayability at all once you figure the AI out.

The saving grace with this game is that it is simply so vast that replayablity will probably not be an issue. Playing maybe 20 hrs a week might take a year to get through the major campaign just one time! And we have been assured that this AI is MUCH LESS predictable and repetative than the UV AI. In otherwords, the testers have told us that, for instance, the Japanese AI will not necessarily attempt to take Java on the same date with the same TF structure every time through and doesn't always send the carrier TF's to the same place at the same time with the same TF configuration every time through the same scenario. I hope that proves to be true.

< Message edited by ZOOMIE1980 -- 6/15/2004 3:08:55 PM >

(in reply to rawink)

Post #: 206

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/15/2004 5:32:02 PM

Toro

Posts: 578
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: 16 miles southeast of Hell (Michigan, i.e.), US
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

...UV. The enemy carriers ALWAYS show up with a CV, CV, CVL configuration in roughly the same place at the same time every time. So once you figure that out, you sit a 4 CV "death star" in that spot and wait.

Zoomie, you do know that super CV fleets are penalized in WitP? A good thing, of course.

Pricing: I consider the drivel I've paid $50 for in the last few years, only to sell them on Half.com or pitch them a few weeks (days?) later. For something that I truly expect to be excellent, and actually PATCHED as we go forward, $70 ain't no thing. Good points are made on price-point for product. That's a fine balancing act every product producer has to mull over. I believe the audience will be a relatively small sector of the buying public (most of them are out purchasing RTS shoot-em-up games that populate the shelves these days), so Matrix has to recoup somehow. In the end, we must pay for what we want, and if it takes $70 to keep good products that I want coming along, I'm there...

Besides, how much do I plan on playing? Let's see, 2 hours a day for the next month, average (probably a low figure), that's 60 hours, or just about $1 per hour. Price goes down after two months to about $0.50 per hour. Hell, I pay more than that for internet connection or cable. It's all about keeping your perspective.

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 207

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/15/2004 6:16:11 PM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline

quote:

Let's see, 2 hours a day for the next month, average (probably a low figure), that's 60 hours, or just about $1 per hour. Price goes down after two months to about $0.50 per hour.

Do the real math. 1667 turns x 2 (you want to play both sides once of the grand campaign).

So $70 / 3334 turns = $0.02 per turn assuming you never touch it again.

A turn can run well over a day of time, but we'll be super nice and say 4 turns per hour because some turns are 15 minutes.

So $70 / 833.5 hours = $0.08 per hour assuming you never touch it again.

Find anything on this planet that is fun anymore for 8 cents an hour. I dare ya!

I paid $110 for Homeworld 2, game + hint book. It lasted me the weekend. It was fairly fun so the $110 was well spent.

(in reply to Toro)

Post #: 208

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/15/2004 6:29:25 PM

kaleun

Posts: 5145
Joined: 5/29/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline

I am puzzled

that we still are harping about the prize of this game. It has been debated to exhaustion.
Now the only way that Matrix can keep making this games, is going to be if us grognards go out there with this game, show it to our younger friends, and get them hooked on it. Then the market will expand; but there is no other way, IMHO that this game's market will grow. No one (other than us

) will rate this game highly, there is just not enough eye candy, it takes too much thought.
Most of my friends who saw me playing BTR or UV thought it was work not play. I am sure when they see us playing this monster, they will call the local looney bin, and we can sing that "They are coming to take me away..." song (While holding on to the laptop tightly)

_____________________________

Appear at places to which he must hasten; move swiftly where he does not expect you.
Sun Tzu

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 209

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/15/2004 6:37:47 PM

Arnir

Posts: 482
Joined: 10/12/2002
From: Alberta. In Texas.
Status: offline

I would imagine that the price debate will be finally settled in the only place that matters: the marketplace.

Of course, all of us might not know the outcome, but Matrix will. Gamers will either dish out the money or not. I hope the game does well to keep the wargaming niche alive and well.

(in reply to kaleun)

Post #: 210

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