RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl?

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl?

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 7:13:25 AM

barbarrossa

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If you could even sortie from Pearl Mogami!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

No one is really thinking they could land troops in Hawaii or US West Coast without first fighting a surface battle? (really a monster series of surface battles)

First there are the PT boats
Next there are all the undamaged surface ships. You can't count on your CV helping. Weather over Hawaii or the CV could be bad. Weather never prevents submarines or surface ships.

Nevada almost choked the Harbor!

Weather ought to damnblasted should!

< Message edited by barbarrossa -- 6/5/2004 5:20:29 AM >

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Post #: 61

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 7:28:15 AM

mogami

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Almost??? Did you say almost??? It would suck to be a Japanese transport TF commander counting on almost. I don't think she would have stopped the PT's no matter, I don't think ships already at sea would worry about almost. There is a delay between the PH strike and the day transports can arrive. The IJN CV will be running out of bombers after a few days of hitting PH. (The AA is only reduced for the Dec 7 am air phase. ) And the IJN CV cannot devote themselves to closing PH and protect transports moving to PH. The USN CV are in the way. So the IJN must split it's CV on Dec 8th and go hunting. Then the USN in port PH have a much increased chance of surviving.

There will be a race of sorts between forces. The USN trying to get new airgroups into PH before the Japanese transports arrive. The USN can send their CV groups to PH and make life difficult. The 3rd USN CV can sortiee and just move close enough to PH to transfer before returning to West Coast for another load. (While the other two move out of the zone and then head for West Coast as well. )

In fact I think this is the way to go early on. Have the 2 at sea CV move south out of range while waiting to see if the Japanese are going for Midway early in game. You can tell quite soon by the number of divisions landing in the SRA. The Japanese have to bring at least 5 divisions to take PH this means if they are not landing in the SRA on the 8,9,or 10th something is going on in the Central Pacific. (Or South Pacific but this is very dangerous for Japan because the USN CV are closer to South Pacific then the IJN CV are. (If the USN CV move South on turn 2.)

There are many hints if the Japanese are going for the gusto right away. First their CV will remain in the area.
2nd the absence of action in SRA by large formations.
But the Allied player still holds all the trump cards. He can reinforce PH's air by using his CV groups. (keeping the CV safe by heading where ever they need to go to exit danger.)
And he will by then have his submarines deployed, be busy laying mines, reforming his airgroups.

It is possible for Japan to capture PH early in game but it is not easy. It takes almost total commitment of Japanese. (and even then it might fail if executed poorly)

< Message edited by Mogami -- 6/5/2004 12:30:28 AM >

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 10:52:11 AM

Mike Scholl

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Koenigsberg "holed up" in the delta of the Rufiji River a good piece south of Dar es Salaam.

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Post #: 63

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 7:25:42 PM

Nikademus

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I think another rather signifigant factor has been forgotten here: the new max sortie rule for CV's.

For an invasion of Oahu, the KB, cannot afford to indiscriminantly bombard targets if it expects to hang around
the islands and protect the invasion TF's from the USN carriers and assets still hanging around Pearl. Her
job is made much easier (and more feasible) by the Dec 7th suprise attack rule, which if done with enough
assets, can all but wipe out Oahu's air defences on day 1, so further airfield attacks are not vital to the
strategy.

It will come down to KB conserving it's strength and ammunition defending against naval counter-attack
and supporting the ground troops against the two entrenched division. bombardment and air-bombardment
would be critical in any successful venture to take the base.

The same logistical issue will also impact the bombardment TF's as well since the average bombardment
expends 3+ points of "ammo". If the BB's and cruisers all expend their ammo churing up the ground
they will not be in a good position to defend the transports.

< Message edited by Nikademus -- 6/5/2004 5:27:13 PM >

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Post #: 64

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/5/2004 9:07:47 PM

Mike Scholl

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So in the end, it comes down to this. IF the Japanese devote a MAJOR effort involving
most of their fleet and a good half or more of their available ground forces and shipping;
they MIGHT be able to take Hawaii.

At the end of this massive exercise, they would have used up virtually all of their pre-
war stockpile of oil..., and have captured exactly NO sources from which to replace it.
For some reason this doesn't sound like a very practical strategy to follow. They went
to war to ensure their supply of vital resources. Pearl Harbor was a passing blow to
prevent US interference in that effort. To make Hawaii the key focus and ignore the
resources really makes no sense at all.

(in reply to Nikademus)

Post #: 65

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/6/2004 10:50:06 AM

Apollo11

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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Exactly ... you can get into the hex but it is doubtful that you can clear the hex of shipping to start troops unloading.

A little trick for you ... when defending a port, there is a way to enforce suicidal ships:

Set your ship home port and destination location to the same hex. This means the ship can not leave the hex no matter what happens. Even battered and sinking, the ship can not go anywhere because it is already at it's home port. Because of this, enemy transports can not unload.

This forces the enemy surface/bombardment tf's to fight again and again until sinking every single ship completely. They *will* run out of ammo in the process and break off their attacks. It is just a matter of time and ships, but any hex can be defended to *death* in this manner. Even though you *will* loose eventually, in the process you *will* prevent the landing for a while and each turn the enemy stays in the hex, more mines are hit and more CD's rain down fire.

It will take a large number of extremely agressive TF commanders in the enemy TF's to not break off the fight when they are low on ammo.

Interesting.... very interesting...

BTW, does this only apply to defending combat ships or any ship can prevent enemy from unloading (like AK/AP/TK)?

If the latter is the case I envise that large number of "Transport" TF's can be created with just single ship in it and it would take long long time for enemy "Surface Combat" and/or "Bombardment" TF to sink them all...

Leo "Apollo11"

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 66

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/6/2004 12:49:17 PM

Mike Scholl

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I would have said "Gamey..., Very Gamey" Not to mention verging on the rediculous.
I hope some limit on this type of activity will find it's way into the code in the forseeable
future.

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Post #: 67

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/6/2004 5:53:32 PM

byron13

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Frag:

Will transports in a port prohibit the invasion of that port?

If I were to, say, send six small, empty transports with destination and home port set to Port Moresby, and the those ships were attacked, would they abort and "return" to their home port . . . of Port Moresby - thus preventing an invasion?

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 68

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/6/2004 5:57:31 PM

Zeta16

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IF the person puts a taskforce of AK's or such they should be sunk pretty quick. They can't run, so I don't see if anyone using this is going to help themselves out. They will just waste points. If an invasion is happing and there a AK taskforce the bombardment group will sink them then Bombard and troops will land all on turn one. This is not Gamey at all. It is just a waste for the person using the AK's or whatever transports.

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Post #: 69

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/6/2004 6:11:31 PM

Mr.Frag

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quote:

BTW, does this only apply to defending combat ships or any ship can prevent enemy from unloading (like AK/AP/TK)?

Olny combat TF's (surface, bombardment, asw) have this effect.

(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 70

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/6/2004 6:13:22 PM

Mr.Frag

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quote:

IF the person puts a taskforce of AK's or such they should be sunk pretty quick. They can't run, so I don't see if anyone using this is going to help themselves out. They will just waste points. If an invasion is happing and there a AK taskforce the bombardment group will sink them then Bombard and troops will land all on turn one. This is not Gamey at all. It is just a waste for the person using the AK's or whatever transports.

Look through my AAR and see what happend to PI ... they were *all* sunk. It is a dangerous thing o do, sometimes you will luck out and surprise the Transport TF, other times you will get your head handed to you on a platter.

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Post #: 71

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/6/2004 9:14:39 PM

Apollo11

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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

BTW, does this only apply to defending combat ships or any ship can prevent enemy from unloading (like AK/AP/TK)?

Olny combat TF's (surface, bombardment, asw) have this effect.

RGR.

That's good news (I think that I have nothing against rule as it is now that combat ship prevents invasion)...

Leo "Apollo11"

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 72

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/6/2004 9:42:34 PM

byron13

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Olny combat TF's (surface, bombardment, asw) have this effect.

Yup, I'm good with this. I would've had a problem if transports could stop an invasion. While Brady's concerns are valid, I just don't see how you could reasonably and cost-effectively code the various factors that would determine whether combat ships could cause an invasion to abort. The present solution is simple and should work well most of the time.

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Post #: 73

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/6/2004 10:07:53 PM

hithere

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hey all, I know everyone has been waiting for what I would do

, but I have to go with the "why would you want to do that?" crowd. it really does not give you any advantage other than a large port, which from what i understand will be damaged by demolition. and it insures that Japan will be pouring resources into a long haul and a bottomless pit (supporting the troops and personal they will have to have at a port that size). I'm sure that U.S. raids will more that make up for any temp. advantage that capturing Pearl will give, esp by subs. and like has been mentioned before, Japan HAS to capture resources. Also, I have to agree with Mogami. The first thing I am going to do is trans my CV air groups to Pearl and get my carrier out of harms way. A Island can not sink. I think you almost have to consede Midway in this game If no real chance of the success that the U.S. had there.
WHEW
now a kinda off-topic question...I have looked but I can not find anything that specifically says.....Does Australia generate supply and fuel like in UV? from what i can tell from the post, it comes from heavy industry, and Australia has that. but i am not as clear on the fuel situation....also...I know what it is , but was does SRA stand for??

thanks

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Post #: 74

RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/6/2004 10:20:25 PM

Mr.Frag

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Without Hawaii, the USA must stage their attacks from the West Coast which is *extremely* difficult to do.

Taking PH is not really the objective. It is denial of use by the USA that you want, not the capturning of the base itself.

Australia makes a very limited amount of fuel and supplies (just enough to stay alive and feed her own troops really). It needs stuff from the USA to be able to conduct combat level operations.

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/6/2004 10:45:29 PM

tsimmonds

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quote:

but was does SRA stand for??

Southern Resource Area

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RE: Is it possible to Japan to take Pearl? - 6/6/2004 11:21:52 PM

hithere

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thanks Mr. Frag and irrelevant !!

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