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RE: WPO Test AAR, different outcome.

 
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RE: WPO Test AAR, different outcome. - 2/1/2005 9:00:21 PM   
Tankerace


Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline
Well, the main problem with the RN are most of its dreadnoughts are using 12" and 13.5" guns, which are outranged by Japanese 14 and 16.1" guns. Still, I have (and am) tweaking it to balance it out more.

EDIT: plus, I also made British guns fairly crappy, to represent poor fire control. I may have to "uncrap" it a wee bit.

< Message edited by Tankerace -- 2/1/2005 1:01:24 PM >


_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 31
RE: War Plan Orange: Pacific Jutland Test AAR: The Batt... - 2/22/2005 7:21:52 PM   
Bobthehatchit


Posts: 1478
Joined: 4/27/2003
From: GREAT BRITAIN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Moves for Valentines Day, 1928.

Japan

The enemy is blockading us. Rather than meet him, I will stay with the transports, let him harpoon himself on my CD guns, and attack!

Britain

England Expects Everyman To Do His Duty.

Results:

The English were cocky. The Battle for Formosa was a complete DISASTER.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 02/14/28

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Taipei at 50,43

Japanese Ships
BB Tosa
BB Kaga
BB Nagato, Shell hits 2
BB Mutsu, Shell hits 3, on fire
BB Ise
BB Hyuga
BB Fuso, Shell hits 1
BB Yamashiro, Shell hits 3
BB Settsu, Shell hits 2
CL Sendai, Shell hits 1
CL Naka
DD No. 43
DD No. 19
DD No. 21
DD No. 23
DD No. 25

Allied Ships
BB Royal Oak, Shell hits 7, on fire, heavy damage
BB Revenge, Shell hits 3, on fire
BB Royal Sovereign, Shell hits 1, on fire
BB Ramilles, Shell hits 4
BB Resolution, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 1
BB Vanguard, Shell hits 13, on fire
BB Superb, Shell hits 3, on fire
BB Temeraire, Shell hits 10, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
BB Bellerophon, Shell hits 5
BB Dreadnought, Shell hits 5
CL Danae, Shell hits 5
CL Dauntless
DD Bruce
DD Truculent, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Retreiver, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Vectis
DD Vega, Shell hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Taipei at 50,43

Japanese Ships
BB Tosa
BB Kaga
BB Nagato, Shell hits 3, on fire
BB Mutsu, Shell hits 1, on fire
BB Ise
BB Hyuga, Shell hits 1
BB Fuso
BB Yamashiro, Shell hits 1
BB Settsu, Shell hits 2
CL Sendai
CL Naka
DD No. 43
DD No. 19
DD No. 21
DD No. 23
DD No. 25

Allied Ships
BB Royal Oak, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
BB Revenge, Shell hits 16, on fire, heavy damage
BB Royal Sovereign, Shell hits 18, on fire, heavy damage
BB Ramilles, Shell hits 6, on fire
BB Resolution, Shell hits 15, and is sunk
BB Vanguard, Shell hits 16, on fire, heavy damage
BB Superb, Shell hits 7, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
BB Temeraire, Shell hits 15, on fire, heavy damage
BB Bellerophon, Shell hits 13, on fire
BB Dreadnought, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CL Danae
CL Dauntless, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Bruce, Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
DD Truculent, on fire, heavy damage
DD Retreiver, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
DD Vectis, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Vega

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Taipei at 50,43

Japanese Ships
BB Tosa, Shell hits 1
BB Kaga
BB Nagato, on fire
BB Mutsu, on fire
BB Ise
BB Hyuga
BB Fuso
BB Yamashiro, Shell hits 1
BB Settsu
CL Sendai
CL Naka, Shell hits 1
DD No. 43
DD No. 19, Shell hits 1
DD No. 21
DD No. 23
DD No. 25

Allied Ships
CL Vindictive
BB Warspite, Shell hits 2
BB Queen Elizabeth, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 2, on fire
BB Malaya
BB Barham, Shell hits 7, on fire
BB Colossus
BB Neptune
BB St. Vincent, Shell hits 12, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
BB Collingwood, Shell hits 1
CL Effingham, Shell hits 1
DD Broke
DD Venetia, Shell hits 3, on fire

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Taipei at 50,43


Allied aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft losses
Fairey IIIF: 8 destroyed

Japanese Ships
BC Amagi, Shell hits 1
BC Akagi
BC Atago
BC Takao
BC Kongo
BC Hiei, Shell hits 1, on fire
BC Krishima, Shell hits 1, on fire
BC Haruna
CL Jintsu, Shell hits 1
CL Kako
DD No. 27
DD No. 29
DD No. 30
DD No. 31
DD No. 32

Allied Ships
CL Vindictive, Shell hits 11, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
BB Warspite, Shell hits 10, and is sunk
BB Queen Elizabeth, Shell hits 18, and is sunk
BB Malaya, Shell hits 15, on fire, heavy damage
BB Barham, Shell hits 14, on fire, heavy damage
BB Colossus, Shell hits 14, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
BB Neptune, Shell hits 8, on fire
BB Collingwood, Shell hits 8, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CL Effingham, Shell hits 13, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Broke, Shell hits 19, and is sunk
DD Venetia, Shell hits 10, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Taipei at 50,43

Japanese Ships
BC Amagi
BC Akagi
BC Atago, Shell hits 8
BC Takao, Shell hits 4
BC Kongo, Shell hits 2
BC Hiei, Shell hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
BC Krishima, on fire
BC Haruna
CL Jintsu
CL Kako
DD No. 27, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD No. 29
DD No. 30
DD No. 31
DD No. 32

Allied Ships
BB Benbow, Shell hits 36, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
BB Erin, Shell hits 17, on fire, heavy damage
BB Agincourt, Shell hits 26, and is sunk
BB Centurion, Shell hits 34, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
BB Orion, Shell hits 45, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
BB Thunderer, Shell hits 12, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
BB Conqueror, Shell hits 2
BB Monarch, Shell hits 27, on fire, heavy damage
CL Calcutta, Shell hits 9, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CL Capetown, Shell hits 18, and is sunk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Taipei at 50,43

Japanese Ships
BC Amagi
BC Akagi
BC Atago, Shell hits 11, on fire, heavy damage
BC Takao, Shell hits 7
BC Kongo
BC Hiei, on fire, heavy damage
BC Krishima, on fire
BC Haruna
CL Jintsu
CL Kako
DD No. 27, on fire, heavy damage
DD No. 29
DD No. 30
DD No. 31
DD No. 32

Allied Ships
BB Erin, Shell hits 10, and is sunk
BB Centurion, Shell hits 25, on fire, heavy damage
BB Thunderer, Shell hits 37, on fire, heavy damage
BB Conqueror, Shell hits 24, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
BB Monarch, Shell hits 5, and is sunk
CL Calcutta, Shell hits 13, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Taipei at 50,43

Japanese Ships
CA Kasuga
CA Nisshin
CL Oi
CL Kiso, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD No.13
DD No.15
DD No.17
DD Minekaze

Allied Ships
BB Malaya, Shell hits 7, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
BB Barham, Shell hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
BB Neptune, on fire
BB Collingwood, on fire, heavy damage
CL Effingham, and is sunk
DD Venetia, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Taipei at 50,43

Japanese Ships
CA Kasuga
CA Nisshin, Shell hits 2
CL Oi
CL Kiso, on fire
DD No.13
DD No.15
DD No.17
DD Minekaze

Allied Ships
BB Royal Oak, on fire, heavy damage
BB Revenge, on fire, heavy damage
BB Royal Sovereign, on fire, heavy damage
BB Ramilles, on fire
BB Vanguard, and is sunk
BB Superb, and is sunk
BB Temeraire, and is sunk
BB Bellerophon, Shell hits 2, on fire
BB Dreadnought, and is sunk
CL Danae, Shell hits 2
CL Dauntless, and is sunk
DD Bruce, and is sunk
DD Truculent, on fire, heavy damage
DD Retreiver, and is sunk
DD Vectis, on fire, heavy damage
DD Vega

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Pescadores , at 47,43

Japanese aircraft
Mitsubishi 1MF4 x 5

Allied aircraft
Sopwith Cuckoo x 5
de Havilland DH-9A x 2
Bristol F2b x 7

Japanese aircraft losses
Mitsubishi 1MF4: 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Sopwith Cuckoo: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged
de Havilland DH-9A: 2 destroyed
Bristol F2b: 1 damaged

Airbase supply hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x de Havilland DH-9A bombing at 10000 feet
4 x Sopwith Cuckoo bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 50,44

Japanese aircraft
Mitsubishi B1M2 x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
Mitsubishi B1M2: 2 destroyed

Allied Ships
BB Royal Oak, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
BB Royal Sovereign, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x Mitsubishi B1M2 bombing at 5000 feet
3 x Mitsubishi B1M2 bombing at 5000 feet
2 x Mitsubishi B1M2 bombing at 5000 feet
2 x Mitsubishi B1M2 bombing at 5000 feet
4 x Mitsubishi B1M2 bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Pescadores , at 47,43

Japanese aircraft
Mitsubishi 1MF4 x 4

Allied aircraft
Sopwith 7F1 Snipe x 2

No Japanese losses

No Allied losses

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 51,43

Japanese aircraft
Mitsubishi B1M2 x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
Mitsubishi B1M2: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
BC Anson

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Mitsubishi B1M2 bombing at 5000 feet

OPERATIONAL REPORT FOR 02/14/28

Kawasaki KDA-2 sighting report: 5 Allied ships at 50,44 , Speed 5 , Moving Southwest
Mitsubishi B1M2 sighting report: 4 Allied ships at 51,43 , Speed 10 , Moving Northeast
Kawasaki KDA-2 sighting report: 4 Allied ships at 50,44 , Speed 7 , Moving Southwest
Mitsubishi B1M2 sighting report: 2 Allied ships at 49,45 , Speed 7 , Moving Southwest
Takao expands port to size 4
Clark Field expands airfield to size 5

End results of the main battles of the night:

Atago and Hiei will sink enroute for repairs, Krishima and Mutsu will be under repair for a year, and several other BBs and cruisers will need repair.

After the battle, Centurion, Thunderer, and Conquerer foundered. Barham, Collingwood, and Royal Oak will sink enroute home, Royal Soverign may never return to service, Ramilles, Bellerophon, and Neptune should survive, but will be under repair for a year. Of the 34 British battleships that started the scenario, only Hercules (relatively undamaged) Ajax, Marlborough, King George V, Empress of India, Iron Duke, Ramilles, Bellerophon, Neptuneand Agamemnon survive. Of those, only Hercules and Agamemnon are fit for battle.

Though I think I need to tweak the game a bit (a 12" British shell couldn't penetrate Settsu at 8,000 yards), does anyone else think WitP can't produce a Jutland? 24 Battleships sunk in one night. That is far worse than Jutland ever was, both sides combined.

The Scenario is over, a clear cut win for Japan.

Both sides started with about 5100 VPs, but Japan has 9185, Britain 6090. Britains naval force is limited to 2 Dreadnoughts, 1 OBB, 2 CVs, and 10 BCs. Japan has 9 Dreads (1 of which is OC), 8 BCs, and a fair number of OBBs.

quote:

Allied Ships
BB Erin, Shell hits 10, and is sunk


Damit thats my ship! bang goes my naval career!

_____________________________

"Look at yours before laughing at mine". Garfield 1984.

Wanted: ISDII Low millage in Imperial gray.


Just my 2 pence worth.
I might not be right.
Hell I am probaby wrong.
But thats my opinion for what its worth!

(in reply to Tankerace)
Post #: 32
RE: War Plan Orange: Pacific Jutland Test AAR: The Batt... - 2/23/2005 4:40:30 AM   
Tankerace


Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline
LOL, I wouldn't worry about it. I have tweaked the nighttime exp values for Japan, they should be just as crappy as everyone else now. Plus, I tweaked the range of their guns, so it shouldn't be so one sided.

_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to Bobthehatchit)
Post #: 33
RE: War Plan Orange: Pacific Jutland Test AAR: The Batt... - 5/3/2005 8:45:35 AM   
Iridium


Posts: 932
Joined: 4/1/2005
From: Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

LOL, I wouldn't worry about it. I have tweaked the nighttime exp values for Japan, they should be just as crappy as everyone else now. Plus, I tweaked the range of their guns, so it shouldn't be so one sided.


Wait, you tweaked the ranges?...Are you trying to make a balanced game or a simulation?...Not that Japan should completely outclass the Brits but wasn't the Fuso the largest and arguably the most powerful BB when finished? I guess I can see making the ranges not so much greater than the British guns so as to make it a cake walk. Still, I have reservations about messing with the true statistics. Dunno, I'd have to say if its a game breaker then go for it...

_____________________________

Yamato, IMO the best looking Battleship.

"Hey, a packet of googly eyes! I'm so taking these." Hank Venture

(in reply to Tankerace)
Post #: 34
RE: War Plan Orange: Pacific Jutland Test AAR: The Batt... - 5/3/2005 10:20:26 AM   
Tankerace


Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline
No no, I had to tweak the ranges because originally, I used the stock War in the Pacific ranges, which I forgot were of a turret with a 43 degree elevation.

In the 1930's, for instance, the Japanese battleships with 14" (35cm) guns were modernized, and their turrets given a 43 degree elevation yielding a 38,770 yard range. This was the value I initially used. However, I forgot that in the early 1920's, their turrets only had a 25 degree elevation, yielding around 29,000 yard range, and then they were modernized in the late 1920's with a 33 degree elevation, yielding about 33,000 yards.

I didn't input ranges I thought would balance the game, I strove to make it more historical. In the early period of the game, all Japanese ships with the 35cm gun have a range of 29,000 yards. This represents their original turrets. When they are modernized in the late 1920's, their retain these weapons, but the range is increased to 33,000 yards. They still have a longer range thatn other nations, but now they are using historically correct gun values.

You also see this on the American side. Starting out, US battleship guns have similar elevation, and hence shorter ranges than in WiTP. However, for most (not all) by 1927-1930, their guns have higher elevation, and thus longer range.

< Message edited by Tankerace -- 5/3/2005 10:21:32 AM >


_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to Iridium)
Post #: 35
RE: War Plan Orange: Pacific Jutland Test AAR: The Batt... - 5/3/2005 6:17:42 PM   
Iridium


Posts: 932
Joined: 4/1/2005
From: Jersey
Status: offline
So, for example the Fuso has the original (Japanese made 41-Shiki) turrets which had only a firing arc of 0 to +30 degrees. Then you can put Fuso in for upgrades and it eventually gets refitted to increase the firing arc to -3 to +43 degrees. Note that the sources I posses on the 41-Shiki turret give ranges of 27,800 yards, then after the `30-`33 refit they range 35,450 yards.

Aside from all that, armor and engines were upgraded in this one instance. Though it did take till '35 for all that to be completed from what I can see.

I think that the only Japanese ship to posess the Vickers type turret that had a firing arc of -3 to +33 degrees with a range of 28,600 yards was the Kongo.

Not sure if this tells you anything new, but just wanted to make sure...

_____________________________

Yamato, IMO the best looking Battleship.

"Hey, a packet of googly eyes! I'm so taking these." Hank Venture

(in reply to Tankerace)
Post #: 36
RE: War Plan Orange: Pacific Jutland Test AAR: The Batt... - 8/6/2005 9:05:49 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline
Hmmm RN seemed to get a real kicking in reasonably good conditions may need some tweaking would they really have been that bad !!!.

Does the RN get the Nelson or Rodney to offset those big gunned IJN and US ships

Andy


(in reply to Iridium)
Post #: 37
RE: War Plan Orange: Pacific Jutland Test AAR: The Batt... - 8/6/2005 9:37:05 PM   
Tankerace


Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline
Yeah, ranges have since been tweaked, to more historical results.

Sorry about Nelson and Rodney, but since they were Treaty designs, they aren't included. That said, their original designs (the G3s) that were scaled down to produce the Nelsons are included. Granted they are battlecruisers, but they have the same 9 16" guns as the Nelsons, and you get three of them instead of two.

_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 38
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