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RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price - 2/6/2005 7:45:33 AM

eMonticello

Posts: 525
Joined: 3/15/2002
Status: offline

I respectfully disagree that the retail market is worthwhile for WITP.

By my back-of-the-envelope calculations, at a retail price of $40, they would probably lose money. Retail returns range between 20-60% (to obtain 5,000 sales, they would need to produce between 6,250 and 12,500 boxes), retailers mark-up is generally 30-50% and distributor mark-up could be somewhere around 25-30%. Publishers will need to take a cut (say 10%), someone needs to pay for return shipping (say $1/unit returned), and, of course, there's Cost of Goods (say $5/unit). If the moons of Jupiter are aligned, they could squeak by with almost $40,000. Worst case, they could lose $50,000. This also assumes that they don't pay retail slotting fee.

I do believe, however, that target marketing and more effective use of customer data would yield much better results. They have about 4 years of customer data available and could supplement it with survey data to help with identifying prospects and cross-selling products to current customers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rossj

Even if packaging and distribution was $40...and I doubt it would be that high...they'd still take in a few bucks and increase the fan base...somebody posted that we don't wan't a bunch of xbox junkies...I dont think that is an issue...look, I'm mot a distribution expert, but I don't believe there's mush risk in producing 5,000 boxed versions for distro to software stores...even if 2by3/matrix broke even we'd essentially double the fan base and generate more interest for future upgrades or new projects

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Post #: 151

RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price - 2/6/2005 7:57:32 AM

denisonh

Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Upstate SC
Status: offline

Looking at it in an empirical manner yields a better understanding of the issue.

If a is the number or customers who would buy WitP if is was $50 or $70, and b are those that would only buy if it was $50, then we are looking at the decision point being :

(a+b)*$50 > a*$70

Using algebra, solve for b

In this case, if b is more than 40% of the "grognard population", the assertion would hold true.

But I significantly doubt that this is the case.

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(in reply to eMonticello)

Post #: 152

RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price - 2/6/2005 8:05:36 AM

bradfordkay

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline

Now you're using logic. No fair.

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fair winds,
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Post #: 153

RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price - 2/6/2005 2:37:53 PM

eMonticello

Posts: 525
Joined: 3/15/2002
Status: offline

My calculations assume that there is an incremental demand for 5,000 units using the retail distribution channel. The problem is we don't know where those folks are, hence the inclusion of the retail return rate and the higher production runs. Since UV was sold through retail outlets, Matrix should already have reasonably good numbers of total market size, the incremental demand through retail distribution, return rate, and post-production unit costs associated with the retail market. They may even have data on demand elasticity, although this may be elusive if the retailers didn't share that information.

quote:

ORIGINAL: denisonh

Looking at it in an empirical manner yields a better understanding of the issue.

If a is the number or customers who would buy WitP if is was $50 or $70, and b are those that would only buy if it was $50, then we are looking at the decision point being :

(a+b)*$50 > a*$70

Using algebra, solve for b

In this case, if b is more than 40% of the "grognard population", the assertion would hold true.

But I significantly doubt that this is the case.

_____________________________

Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example. -- Pudd'nhead Wilson

(in reply to denisonh)

Post #: 154

RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price - 2/6/2005 3:35:13 PM

Ron Saueracker

Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline

I wonder how much adds in magazines would run? Maybe "Proceedings", Sea Classics, Air Classics, World War Two, Military History maybe. Avalon Hill used to publish their own called "The General"...perhaps this is worth looking into now considering the number of projects Matrix is undertaking as a publisher.

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Post #: 155

RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price - 2/6/2005 6:02:14 PM

Stavka_lite

Posts: 171
Joined: 3/15/2004
From: Tucson
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I wonder how much adds in magazines would run? Maybe "Proceedings", Sea Classics, Air Classics, World War Two, Military History maybe. Avalon Hill used to publish their own called "The General"...perhaps this is worth looking into now considering the number of projects Matrix is undertaking as a publisher.

In a thread some time ago I advocated this very strategy and was scoffed at. Now maybe, hopefully, Matrix will look at this marketing strategy a little more seriously now that it has an "endorsement" that has some name recognition. buying ads in specialty magazines is not a waste of money but an investment. Magazines like "Preceedings" etc would be the ideal target, naval officers just eat this stuff up. I will say it again at the risk of being flamed again, relying on reviews in PC gaming magazines is a mistake. While on the surface they seem like the logical thing to do but the wrong market is targeted. This is a specialty game and so is the Korsun series, and as such these games need specilized marketing. Matrix should not adopt strategy that uses or depends on (nearly)free advertising, i.e. game reviews. I would venture to say that more sales were generated by their website than the published reviews. Pricing and packaging do not mean diddly. This forum has already proven that the market can handle the price (economics 101) and thinking that reducing the price and jazzing up the box will sell more copies is also a mistake. One that can be forgiven because it seems so obvious. I am sure that sales are still trickling in but I think it would be safe to say that just about everybody who is aware of the game has already purchased it. Creative and logical marketing is what is called for now. Just a thought... what do you think would happen if Matrix donated a dozen copies of WitP to the Naval Warfare College and Annapolis? and mabye even giving a few copies to the RN and the RAN, oh, hell, why not the JNSDF too! Battlefront has managed to get their Combat Mission series licencsed by the Austrialian Army so this strategy does work.

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Post #: 156

RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price - 2/6/2005 6:13:39 PM

Mike Scholl

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline

Hey..., I've got a really radical idea.....Why don't we assume that the guys at 2by3 don't all have
their heads up their butts and chose the price based on trying to get a rational return on their
investment of time and effort?....Like breaking even..., because I will bet you that none of them
are getting rich on WITP.

It is their product, and in the end the price is their choice......So if you want to invest hundreds of
hours of your time creating your own game, by all means feel free to sell it at whatever price
you choose.....Until then, let the people who made the product set the price.....At the rate I'm
going, I figure WITP is going to cost me about 7 cents an hour for the entertainment I recieve.
That's a bargan in any language.

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(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

Post #: 157

RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price - 2/6/2005 6:17:12 PM

m10bob

Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline

Let's face it,"games" and even books are a luxury item.Some people are going thru some rough times and have to be very spend concious with what they do have to throw around,(food,utilities and housing must be a priority.)
If on the other hand,a person does have the cash to invest in "games" or books, they would want to seek the most "bang for the buck'
If someone is really into history,and the history of the war in the Pacific in particular,this "game"(WITP) is the "leather-bound",gold embossed product to acquire.
No excuses and no exceptions.
As far as demos,well,I tried a demo of Steel Panthers years ago on my Windows 3.1 cpu,and it *sucked* with a capital "s"..(Thank God I later acquired the game,it was NOTHING like the demo and I'm still playing it's grandson,(SPWAW)..
I purchased UV and I will still endorse it yet as an absolute "must have",(unless you can get WITP).
If you must have a demo,to purchase something,you will never have WITP.This is a game that has been directed at a very certain market,and not the "general public" per se.
The general public will have Monopoly,Bingo,Chutes and Ladders,Finch,etc..
The history student,military strategy grognard,veteran,etc,will have WITP,simply because it IS the pinnacle of WW2 era strategy games,(for the Pacific exclusively at present,and I hope it will expand to other areas of the world).
I don't think Matrix Games is trying to compete with the general gaming community,nor do I think they would be able to,and survive.
Matrix Games keeps their focus on the particular persons I have described above,and so long as they do not "sell out" as did other "strategy" gaming companies,Matrix will survive,with each new generation of like minded people.
Veteran's in particular (like myself), will keep their finger in the pie,long after the smoke clears,if nothing else,to keep the rest of you folks "honest",and hopefully accurate, in your historical sims..WITP is a "TEN".
If you don't agree,it's o.k...

< Message edited by m10bob -- 2/6/2005 11:21:03 AM >

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Post #: 158

RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price - 2/7/2005 3:40:58 AM

Rob322

Posts: 578
Joined: 8/16/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

Hey..., I've got a really radical idea.....Why don't we assume that the guys at 2by3 don't all have
their heads up their butts and chose the price based on trying to get a rational return on their
investment of time and effort?....Like breaking even..., because I will bet you that none of them
are getting rich on WITP.

It is their product, and in the end the price is their choice......So if you want to invest hundreds of
hours of your time creating your own game, by all means feel free to sell it at whatever price
you choose.....Until then, let the people who made the product set the price.....At the rate I'm
going, I figure WITP is going to cost me about 7 cents an hour for the entertainment I recieve.
That's a bargan in any language.

Now you're just being intelligent about the whole thing.

Didn't you get the memo that it's a bitch, moan, and whine thread and that when you try to combine those elements with logic they tend to explode violently, like bring together matter and anti-matter? Jeez Mike, you could KILL us all!

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 159

RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price - 2/7/2005 3:53:50 AM

Mike Scholl

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob322

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

Hey..., I've got a really radical idea.....Why don't we assume that the guys at 2by3 don't all have
their heads up their butts and chose the price based on trying to get a rational return on their
investment of time and effort?....Like breaking even..., because I will bet you that none of them
are getting rich on WITP.

It is their product, and in the end the price is their choice......So if you want to invest hundreds of
hours of your time creating your own game, by all means feel free to sell it at whatever price
you choose.....Until then, let the people who made the product set the price.....At the rate I'm
going, I figure WITP is going to cost me about 7 cents an hour for the entertainment I recieve.
That's a bargan in any language.

Now you're just being intelligent about the whole thing. Didn't you get the memo that it's a bitch, moan, and whine thread and that when you try to combine those elements with logic they tend to explode violently, like bring together matter and anti-matter? Jeez Mike, you could KILL us all!

My apologies Rob......You're absolutely correct....Intelligence, Reality, and Common Sense have no place in this forum.....Every so often I have a couple drinks too many and forget the true purpose here is to spread fanboy nonsense and insult the other participants.....Please forgive me for my foolishness.

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Post #: 160

RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price - 2/7/2005 4:40:01 AM

Tom Hunter

Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Hey..., I've got a really radical idea.....Why don't we assume that the guys at 2by3 don't all have
their heads up their butts and chose the price based on trying to get a rational return on their
investment of time and effort?....Like breaking even..., because I will bet you that none of them
are getting rich on WITP.

Your making an important assumption that bad pricing strategy is because of a fundamental problem "heads up thier butts" on the part of the person setting the strategy. In my personal experience which includes working with the guy who wrote the book on pricing strategy (google Nagle and pricing if your curious) this is never the case.

Usually its a question of knowledge and time. Most people don't know much about pricing strategy because most people don't make pricing desicions that often. Usually pricing decisions at smaller companies are made at launch and seldom revisited. There are simply too many more pressing issues to deal with. Also if your faced with many critical decisions about other aspects of you business and a few times a year decision about pricing what would you spend your time studying? A smart executive would not spend time on pricing because other things are more pressing and occur much more often.

The other thing to remember is that pricing strategy is seldom bad, its usually just sub optimal. Its very hard to tell if your pricing strategy is sub optimal and its hard to fix if it is.

I don't assume that the folks at Matrix have thier heads up thier butts, or are foolish in any way. But I do assume that they face many of the same pressures that other small and meduim size companies face and a less than optimal pricing strategy is often a result of dealing with those pressures.

(disclaimer I do not currently work with Dr. Tom Nagle but I have in the past and learned a lot from him)

< Message edited by Tom Hunter -- 2/7/2005 2:44:32 AM >

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 161

RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price - 2/7/2005 4:41:58 AM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline

quote:

Intelligence, Reality, and Common Sense have no place in this forum

Actually, it is the only thing that keeps us from killing each other like that which happens in pretty much every other forum I've ever seen.

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 162

RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price - 2/7/2005 4:47:55 AM

Tankerace

Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline

I thought the fact we all live hundreds of miles from each other was the only thing that did that.

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Post #: 163

RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price - 2/7/2005 4:54:00 AM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline

quote:

I thought the fact we all live hundreds of miles from each other was the only thing that did that.

Naw, Ron is within driving distance of here

(in reply to Tankerace)

Post #: 164

RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price - 2/7/2005 5:18:30 AM

Rob322

Posts: 578
Joined: 8/16/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

I thought the fact we all live hundreds of miles from each other was the only thing that did that.

Ahhh Tankerace, you seem to be mired in the 1920's, a few hundred miles is no trouble when you have ICBM's.

(in reply to Tankerace)

Post #: 165

RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price - 2/7/2005 5:27:37 AM

Tankerace

Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline

Yes....but Matrix doesn't want us killing off millions of potential customers, its bad for business

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Post #: 166

RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price - 2/12/2005 9:34:33 AM

Zap

Posts: 3639
Joined: 12/6/2004
From: LAS VEGAS TAKE A CHANCE
Status: offline

quote:

they face many of the same pressures that other small and meduim size companies face and a less than optimal pricing strategy is often a result of dealing with those pressures.

Tom you made a good point.

Since we can't control what Matrix does I can only hope they make the best choices for their finacial success. And they, can always read these posts ( they often do come in to get a feel of things) to help them reinforce impotant decisions to be made. Forums are one way for them to keep their finger on the pulse of things. I'm sure they appreciate the contributions.

From watching the company grow that I work for it took and is still taking time to get all things in shape (trim the fat, ditribute enogh resources to each department ect.). It's a real balancing act and a real challenge. I would like to offer Matrix my words of encouragement as they try realize their goals. By so doing i believe I will be rewarded with many of enjoyable hours of game play.

(in reply to Tom Hunter)

Post #: 167

RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price - 2/13/2005 12:21:24 AM

marky

Posts: 5780
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cmdrcain

quote:

ORIGINAL: marky

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Yea, a good starting time commitment is two weeks, anything less then that and you'll just end up deleting it.

This game requires commitment, a lot of us should be committed

hahaha

my mom said i was crazy

or she said-

~all u do is sit at ur computer and play games~

~thats crazy~

im thinkin, if im crazy for playing great games all day and half the night, then the world has lost the definition of crazy, or its just become blurred!

whos with me?

Hummm Your mother should be quite glad your sitting playing a computer game then out doing who knows what

lol

exactly

and so should my gf

she needs only look to the computer to see where i m

i also now have WITP

i m not the 1 who paid for it as i dont have the means, so my mother paid for it LOLZ

the reason i couldnt get it is i had to convince her, weve all had to convince them at 1 time or another to buy us suimthing am i right?

anyway, by steady attrition and bugging her i finnaly got her to buy it, also i did a bit of cleaning

price paid?

waiting and waiting and waiting + circa $93.00

i got the download and phys shipment on 2 day shipping

was it worth it?

YES

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Post #: 168

RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price - 2/13/2005 12:29:13 AM

Halsey

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline

Now spend your extra time paying attention in writing class!

Or should I say, printing class?

< Message edited by Halsey -- 2/12/2005 4:30:11 PM >

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Post #: 169

RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price - 2/13/2005 12:30:59 AM

marky

Posts: 5780
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Halsey

Now spend your extra time paying attention in writing class!

Or should I say, printing class?

i am completely free

IE

no scool, no job = yet

so i have all the time in the world to play WITP

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Post #: 170

RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price - 2/13/2005 12:37:56 AM

marky

Posts: 5780
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Your loss.

Buy UV for a small taste of WITP. There is your demo.

i totally agree 2ndACR

WITP is a great game and well worth the investment

guys, if u want a demo, play UV as suggested, theyere very similar except in size

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Post #: 171

RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price - 2/13/2005 12:43:06 AM

Halsey

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline

So your mom is now supporting a WITP bum? You'll never go look for a job now!

Once you try it (bugs and all) you'll never go back.

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Post #: 172

RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price - 2/13/2005 1:04:58 AM

marky

Posts: 5780
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Halsey

So your mom is now supporting a WITP bum? You'll never go look for a job now!

Once you try it (bugs and all) you'll never go back.

lolz
nah

im just on vacation after finishing HS = LONG dam story

eventually, maybe a few months from now ill start a job and sumwhere along the line ill get into a career

i wonder if playing games all day counts....

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Post #: 173

RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price - 2/13/2005 1:07:43 AM

Halsey

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
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A level 31 Paladin looks good on the resume. Maybe CinC of the Pacific will too!

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Post #: 174

RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price - 2/13/2005 1:27:34 AM

marky

Posts: 5780
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline

yep

being in the navy looks very good too

and since im currently CincPac....

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Post #: 175

RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price - 2/13/2005 2:33:48 AM

Zeta16

Posts: 1199
Joined: 11/20/2002
From: Columbus. Ohio
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, It is the kind of game where if you know it exists and your not standing on your head to get it then I don't know. If you don't think about your computer games when your not actually playing them then I don't know.
If you don't know what a grognard is then I don't know.
How's that old saying go? "If I have to explain it then you won't understand"

The foks that love WITP are the same ones that before it was made wished it would be made.

I reading this thread for the first time, this is the best quote. I love WWII and really love the naval war in the Pacific. I was looking for a game like this for a year when I got my first computer after college and I found UV and moved on to this. I know people complain about every thing and not everyone is going to be happy, but think if this game was not made, what would you play dealing with this subject?

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(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 176

RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price - 2/13/2005 2:36:04 AM

Zeta16

Posts: 1199
Joined: 11/20/2002
From: Columbus. Ohio
Status: offline

The funny thing is most people I know who complain about prices of stuff like this are the ones who go out and spend 40 dollars a night at a bar 5 nights a week and complain about how they have no money.

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Post #: 177

RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price - 2/13/2005 2:50:02 AM

pasternakski

Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: marky
no scool

Sez it all.

(in reply to marky)

Post #: 178

RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price - 2/13/2005 4:13:08 AM

m10bob

Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

quote:

ORIGINAL: marky
no scool

Sez it all.

Want fries with that,mister?

(I think somebodies' pulling our legs.)

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Post #: 179

RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price - 2/13/2005 4:21:07 AM

Halsey

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
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I doubt it. You know how those "cheeseheads " are!

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Post #: 180

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