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RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar

 
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RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 9:08:10 PM   
TheElf


Posts: 3870
Joined: 5/14/2003
From: Pax River, MD
Status: offline 		m10bob,
That was a great article at yarchive.net. You don't hear people around here talking about japanese aircraft like that.

I noticed that the author made the same point that I made a while back regarding Oscars in numbers. A point that seems to have been forgotten. That is, especially early in the war, they typically were encountered with a numerical superiority. The result being that a flight of 3 Ki-43s with a combined fire power of 3 rifle cal and 3 machine gun cal weapons could be chopping away at a single target.

Just imagine wht a dogfight would look like with 6 Hurricanes, P-40s, Buffalos, or P-39s facing 18+ Oscars might look like. Oscars in superior numbers should be more dangerous in WitP as it is modelled right now. Any a/c in superior numbers should be more dangerous. Unfortunately Oscars aren't.

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Post #: 91
RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 9:31:26 PM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1829
Joined: 5/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf
Just imagine wht a dogfight would look like with 6 Hurricanes, P-40s, Buffalos, or P-39s facing 18+ Oscars might look like. Oscars in superior numbers should be more dangerous in WitP as it is modelled right now. Any a/c in superior numbers should be more dangerous. Unfortunately Oscars aren't.


Oscars in superior numbers are quite dangerous in WITP! Actually it seems that all planes in WITP are quite dangerous when having superior numbers!

My PBEM opponents have put the Oscar to good use. I don't understand why so many people seem to think that it's useless. As with many things in WITP the usefulness of planes, ships, subs or whatever depends to a large degree on player's actions.

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Post #: 92
RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/10/2005 11:26:16 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		WHUTT we have HERE...Is FAILURE....to COMMUNICATE.......................
SUM pipples...yuh JUST KINT REACH...........
(from "Cool Hand Luke")

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Post #: 93
RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/11/2005 11:22:23 AM   
Sneer


Posts: 2654
Joined: 10/29/2003
Status: offline 		Oscars ARE useful - I have almost 250 kills from oscar sqns by march42
BTW - site with gun values is great however to be more specific kinetic energy shoud be modelled- diffrent guns had diffrent parameters
BUt.... it would be REVOLUTION in WITP to have such values implemented

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Post #: 94
RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/11/2005 9:59:38 PM   
Big B

 

Posts: 4870
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
Status: offline 		I know I missed something here in this thread...but if we assume the Ki43 series actually are miss-represented -

What was supposed to be the proposed change? Was this a plea for sharing the Zero Bonus, or a stat change...?

B

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Post #: 95
RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/11/2005 10:21:47 PM   
TheElf


Posts: 3870
Joined: 5/14/2003
From: Pax River, MD
Status: offline 		No this was supposed to be a poll on players opinion of the Oscar in the Stock game. The purpose was to find support for the inclusion of Nik's Mod in the CHS. At least the A2A model and his specific individual aircraft tweaks

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Post #: 96
RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/11/2005 10:26:31 PM   
Big B

 

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From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

No this was supposed to be a poll on players opinion of the Oscar in the Stock game. The purpose was to find support for the inclusion of Nik's Mod in the CHS. At least the A2A model and his specific individual aircraft tweaks


Check!

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Post #: 97
RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/13/2005 5:19:43 AM   
GaryChildress

 

Posts: 6830
Joined: 7/17/2005
From: The Divided Nations of Earth
Status: offline 		Back off topic on the usefullness of the Oscar compared to the Nate; I just got through watching a combat replay in a stock game where 23 of my Oscars destroyed all 3 Buffalos and 2 Demons of an enemy CAP without taking a single casualty of their own. Had they been Nates I'd probably have taken a few losses without shooting down a single enemy plane. Either that or it probably would have been a draw with no one scoring any kills.

Gary

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Post #: 98
RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/13/2005 7:03:19 AM   
esteban


Posts: 618
Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline 		Actually, in the PBEM game I am in, my Oscars have generally done fairly well, even against the AVG. However, I don't put the Oscars in a position where they have to "fight fair". Instead, I try to get 3-1 plus odds with them. But if the Allied player is predictable on where he places his CAP, you can do things like that.

Regardless of what happens, Oscars are better than the Nate. With PDU on, I just shut down the Nate production facilities, and expand the Oscar I factory in Gumma.


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Post #: 99
RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/13/2005 6:04:25 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
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From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mc3744

I'm no expert on WWII fighters.

What I can say is that from the couple of books I read on the topic in the game the Oscar seem to under-perform with regard to history. But again I've little knowledge.

In my game as Allies they bother me only as CAP vs. unescorted bombers ar Irrelevant already pointed out.

As Jap I try to use them against unescorted bombers

They suck for everything else. I had 80+ exp Oscars shot down by Brewsters.
I was watching the BBC box set on WWII (great btw). there was an interview of British pilots fighitn in Burma.
One of them said, with the Buffalo's you were lucky to come back alive if you encoutered bad weather, let alone enemy fighters!


Their biggest strength was manueverability (they could out turn a Zero); their biggest weaknesses were pitiful armament and light construction. As long as the early war Allied pilots tried to "dogfight" with them they were very tough opponants as it played to their strength. But once even a Buffalo pilot learned not to play their game they were much less effective. I could easily see giving them a 3 month "bonus" at the start of the war asgainst anything but the AFV (who had already learned "dogfighting" was a bad idea against the extrodinarily nimble Jap fighters from Chanault).


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RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/13/2005 11:26:01 PM   
esteban


Posts: 618
Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline 		I could see giving them the "zero bonus", or just upping their maneuverability to 36/37

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Post #: 101
RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/14/2005 1:15:28 AM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline 		In doing research on the P-38 (still) it seems the Oscars were dangerous opponents even late in the war. P-38s were doing a number on the Oscar airfields, until the raid on Meiktila on 6 June 1944.

On that date, the 459th FS set off from Chittagong, India (now Bangladesh) with 20 P-38s in 2 groups of 10 each. They were ambushed by the crack 64th Sentai (noted for their gaudily painted Oscars) jumped the P-38s "in overwhelming force" (whatever that is). The Oscars managed to shoot down some P-38s (shooting down the 2 aces in the squadron, Capt Duke and Lt. Goodrich) and vice versa (shooting down the 25-kill ace Goichi Sumino) - and this seemed to calm the ardor of the P-38s to attack the Oscar fields for a little while.

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 11/14/2005 1:22:15 AM >

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Post #: 102
RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/14/2005 4:13:53 AM   
TheElf


Posts: 3870
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From: Pax River, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

In doing research on the P-38 (still) it seems the Oscars were dangerous opponents even late in the war. P-38s were doing a number on the Oscar airfields, until the raid on Meiktila on 6 June 1944.

On that date, the 459th FS set off from Chittagong, India (now Bangladesh) with 20 P-38s in 2 groups of 10 each. They were ambushed by the crack 64th Sentai (noted for their gaudily painted Oscars) jumped the P-38s "in overwhelming force" (whatever that is). The Oscars managed to shoot down some P-38s (shooting down the 2 aces in the squadron, Capt Duke and Lt. Goodrich) and vice versa (shooting down the 25-kill ace Goichi Sumino) - and this seemed to calm the ardor of the P-38s to attack the Oscar fields for a little while.


Interesting. What was the date rtrapasso, and can you site your source?

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Post #: 103
RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/14/2005 11:55:11 AM   
Sneer


Posts: 2654
Joined: 10/29/2003
Status: offline 		I doubt if such result is possible in game

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Post #: 104
RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/14/2005 5:23:44 PM   
Big B

 

Posts: 4870
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
Status: offline 		Are we to assume that 'overwhelming' numbers of Oscars cannot shoot down a couple of P-38s on a straffing run? (I rather think they can in the game)

I've seen Oscars shoot down plenty of P-40s in the games I've played, espcially when they have the 'numbers' on them by magnitudes of two or more - which is what the above situation describes or implies.

I haven't seen that result with P-38s because alas - I had no P-38s...still waiting for them when game ended.

B

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Post #: 105
RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/14/2005 8:13:25 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

In doing research on the P-38 (still) it seems the Oscars were dangerous opponents even late in the war. P-38s were doing a number on the Oscar airfields, until the raid on Meiktila on 6 June 1944.

On that date, the 459th FS set off from Chittagong, India (now Bangladesh) with 20 P-38s in 2 groups of 10 each. They were ambushed by the crack 64th Sentai (noted for their gaudily painted Oscars) jumped the P-38s "in overwhelming force" (whatever that is). The Oscars managed to shoot down some P-38s (shooting down the 2 aces in the squadron, Capt Duke and Lt. Goodrich) and vice versa (shooting down the 25-kill ace Goichi Sumino) - and this seemed to calm the ardor of the P-38s to attack the Oscar fields for a little while.


Interesting. What was the date rtrapasso, and can you site your source?


This is from P-38 Lightning Aces of the Pacific and CBI by John Stanaway (Osprey Aircraft of the Aces 14) pages 79, 82-83. Date (as noted) 6 June 1944. Curiously, this was not mentioned in the USAAF "day by day" diary on the web, but i think there was something else going on that day that might have overshadowed this...

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Post #: 106
RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/14/2005 9:35:24 PM   
TheElf


Posts: 3870
Joined: 5/14/2003
From: Pax River, MD
Status: offline 		My P-38s in my PBEM have lost only onenor two aricraft to the Oscar CAP over Kendari. And they weren't outright kills, they were damaged and did not make it back to base. I have sent one squadron(24) up against an equal to slightly larger number of Oscars plus the odd A6M3 and come away with anywhere between 3-7 kills for usually no loss. The P-38 squadron at Lautem flying these Sweeps started with EXP of 58. They are now EXP 61. They get a day of rest between missions.

My opponent haas hoarded his Oscars since the early part of our game. Very little has been seen of them so I assume they are/were around low to mid 70's in EXP.

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Post #: 107
RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/14/2005 9:57:46 PM   
Big B

 

Posts: 4870
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

My P-38s in my PBEM have lost only onenor two aricraft to the Oscar CAP over Kendari. And they weren't outright kills, they were damaged and did not make it back to base. I have sent one squadron(24) up against an equal to slightly larger number of Oscars plus the odd A6M3 and come away with anywhere between 3-7 kills for usually no loss. The P-38 squadron at Lautem flying these Sweeps started with EXP of 58. They are now EXP 61. They get a day of rest between missions.

My opponent has hoarded his Oscars since the early part of our game. Very little has been seen of them so I assume they are/were around low to mid 70's in EXP.


That does seem a bad show for the Oscars. In fairness to the above posting by rtrapasso - that wouldn't represent an 'overwhleming' number of Oscars though.
Sounds like the perfect setup for a test if anyone cares to - get an average of the KI43's kill loss ratio with different aircraft ...and at different odds.

It would be quite interesting to see the results...

B

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Post #: 108
RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/14/2005 10:02:44 PM   
Kenyoshi

 

Posts: 12
Joined: 5/22/2005
Status: offline 		I am playing my first PBM as Japaneese against Terminus and I have a Squadron of Oscars in Burma in December that have tangled with the AVG and have registered 15 kills while losing about half of that number. Realize that they will get outclassed in mid 42 but they are doing fine for me at the moment.

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Post #: 109
RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/15/2005 9:15:18 AM   
TheElf


Posts: 3870
Joined: 5/14/2003
From: Pax River, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B


In fairness to the above posting by rtrapasso - that wouldn't represent an 'overwhleming' number of Oscars though.

B


True. I was taking aim more at the importance of EXP in A2A.


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RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/15/2005 9:15:49 AM   
TheElf


Posts: 3870
Joined: 5/14/2003
From: Pax River, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kenyoshi

I am playing my first PBM as Japaneese against Terminus and I have a Squadron of Oscars in Burma in December that have tangled with the AVG and have registered 15 kills while losing about half of that number. Realize that they will get outclassed in mid 42 but they are doing fine for me at the moment.


This is good to hear.

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RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/15/2005 10:02:53 AM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		I am glad you started this thread Elf..It has forced me to realize that the Oscar was so under-represented in WITP, (as far as its' effectiveness.)
Seeing actual historical comments and seeing how even other gamers have come to respect it (in other games and simulations) also serves to point out you were not alone..
And I thought you were just an artist !!

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Post #: 112
RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/15/2005 10:53:11 AM   
TheElf


Posts: 3870
Joined: 5/14/2003
From: Pax River, MD
Status: offline 		I am just an artist. This whole Oscar thing was just a rouse
I have no idea what I'm talking about...honestly.

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RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/15/2005 11:19:51 AM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
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From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

I am just an artist. This whole Oscar thing was just a rouse
I have no idea what I'm talking about...honestly.


Then...The word is R U S E.......

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Post #: 114
RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/15/2005 4:27:59 PM   
Big B

 

Posts: 4870
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B


In fairness to the above posting by rtrapasso - that wouldn't represent an 'overwhleming' number of Oscars though.

B


True. I was taking aim more at the importance of EXP in A2A.



You know, I do believe that the single most important aspect in a2a in this game is exp...by a very very very wide margin.

I'll bet if you take a crack KI 43 IIa Sentai of say - 36 planes avg exp 80 to 90, and put them up against 16 guys in P38-Js with avg exp 60 to 65 - thus duplicating m10bob's historic encounter I would bet the Oscars come out on top most every time at that exp and numbers differential....

Test! we need a test!

B

Edited for spelling...hey it was early in the morning - pre-coffee

< Message edited by Big B -- 11/15/2005 5:49:38 PM >

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Post #: 115
RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/15/2005 4:43:27 PM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		Hi Big B,

I think Nik listed before the top 2 factors in A2A combat in WiTP are:

Speed
Firepower (gun value)

I think experience was 3-5 on the list.

Regards,

Steven

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Post #: 116
RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/15/2005 5:48:13 PM   
DFalcon


Posts: 318
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B


I'll bet if you take a crack KI 43 IIa Sentai of say - 36 planes avg exp 80 to 90, and put them up against 16 guys in P38-Js with avg exp 60 to 65 - thus duplicating m10bob's historic encounter I would bet the Oscars come out on top most every time at that exp and numbers differential....

Test! we need a test!

B


I would be interested to see the results of this as well. If I have some time tonight maybe I will run a test like this.

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Post #: 117
RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/15/2005 5:59:12 PM   
Big B

 

Posts: 4870
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From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DFalcon


quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B


I'll bet if you take a crack KI 43 IIa Sentai of say - 36 planes avg exp 80 to 90, and put them up against 16 guys in P38-Js with avg exp 60 to 65 - thus duplicating m10bob's historic encounter I would bet the Oscars come out on top most every time at that exp and numbers differential....

Test! we need a test!

B


I would be interested to see the results of this as well. If I have some time tonight maybe I will run a test like this.


Well Speedy says Nik already figured it out...but I'd still like to see it - especially since they don't release their combat algorithms...
This could be as revealing as unmasking the famed Aleutian Zero

B


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Post #: 118
RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/15/2005 9:53:07 PM   
Bombur

 

Posts: 3642
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		-In my game vs Nik (Nik mod) Ki-43 I´s vs P-40´s from the AVG are getting 2:3 kill losses (favoring the P-40´s). In Nik mod Ki-43´s are useful against P-40´s and they easily beat the Buffalo, but they are almost useless against bombers (which is correct from my POV, btw)

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Post #: 119
RE: Informal POLL Re: Oscar - 11/15/2005 9:58:40 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		Does anyone actually know how many P40B/C/Es or P38s were downed by Oscars during World War 2?

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Didn't we have this conversation already?

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