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RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 4

 
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RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 4 - 5/26/2006 4:26:35 PM   
Sneer


Posts: 2654
Joined: 10/29/2003
Status: offline 		UK CV are at Pago Pago as well as his troops transports and lot of surface TFs
Pago Pago is lvl 4 airfield and I think it is well defended by LBA so i think there no need to risk my carriers to mitchels and beauforts when i have low amount of attack planes and pilots are fatigued
day 5th was without fight
Raverdave concentrate forces at Pago Pago - 2UK CV + CVE +CVL + probably hornet and essex as recon did not find them - if i couldn't find them they are able to do at least 4 hexes per turn
At this moment can defend well against enemy air strikes but i can't attack carrier forces under LBA umbrella
question is if Raverdave decide to go for Canton isl or all allied troops withdraw for a few months
i still have enough attack planes to hurt his carriers if they decide to go for canton and enough BB&CA to stop invasion
most of RN ships are undamaged and remember there are at least 3 "R" class BB there - formidable opponent in surface engagements
US BBs are close to palmyra now as well as other forces

i'm slightly worried about Kongo
it is not very durable ship and was shot badly so maybe allied will score one more ship ...

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(in reply to jumper)
Post #: 661
RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 4 - 5/26/2006 4:57:39 PM   
jumper

 

Posts: 489
Joined: 2/23/2006
Status: offline 		I think you forced him to cancel the invasion. He can not leave the LBA cover for now. Too risky. More probably he waits there hoping you will suffer from victory disease and will pursue him there. CVs as a bait - what a decay

(in reply to Sneer)
Post #: 662
RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 4 - 5/26/2006 5:37:25 PM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		What a fcuking complete dog's breakfast !

First off a number of things need to be stated.

1/ Two full experianced PBY squadrons based at Pago-fcuking-pago completely FAILED to spot KB.

2/ My CV forces was on a ferry run towards Pago-fcuking-pago and as such were not in my usual combat formation, indeed the four task forces were spread by as much as two days sailing time.

3/ Because of point 1 I was not expecting anything except maybe some LRB and sub activity out of Canton. The build up at Pago-fcuking-pago was for a deeper strike which was going to by-pass Canton Is.

4/ Have I mentioned the two wanking PBY squadrons based at Pago-fcuking-pago?

5/ Losses VERY heavy..........naval avation has been hit hard to the point that I doubt if I can launch any invasions before 1944.

6/ On the bright side the RN carriers stood up well.....those armoured decks can sure take a pounding. The RN has come out of this smelling of roses.

7/ I have seven carriers that are badly smashed up (three CVs and three CVEs and one CVL) and based on experiance will take as much as 6 months to fix.

8/ Between now and the end of 1943 I will get another 22 carriers.............revenge is best served cold.


9/ This battle was fought on Sneer's time and place, and as such I got my arse handed to me on a plate. I was not looking for nor did I want to fight a carrier battle just yet. Victory goes to Sneer.

_____________________________




Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to jumper)
Post #: 663
RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 4 - 5/26/2006 5:41:25 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		I thought the RN's Ramilles, Royal Sovereign and Resolution did a damned fine job against Musashi and Kongo.


(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 664
Pics Day one of the Battle - 5/26/2006 5:50:51 PM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		Day One.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________




Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 665
RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 4 - 5/26/2006 5:53:57 PM   
veji1

 

Posts: 1019
Joined: 7/9/2005
Status: offline 		what wer the settings of the PBYs ?

I tend to put one at the extended range and 70%search, and one at the normal range and 70% as well, it seems to me that if all patrol planes are set at extended range they tend to miss TFs that are in their normal range... Maybe it is just wishfull thinking, but it seems to work for me...

Otherwise... hard to swallow, but as you said, you'll come back eventually..

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 666
RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 4 - 5/26/2006 6:41:17 PM   
Sneer


Posts: 2654
Joined: 10/29/2003
Status: offline 		well I made few mistakes too

on day one only 1 division had kates and vals on attacks - rest was stationed down

second i didn't manage to keep KB together and div 1 was mauled by US - it shouldn't happen - with div 1 operational i could sink whole 3 CVs on day 4

third small one - if i ever thought i can find all enemy fleet with musashi battlegroup i would double their strenght - i had much more ships available


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(in reply to Sneer)
Post #: 667
RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 4 - 5/26/2006 6:44:33 PM   
Sneer


Posts: 2654
Joined: 10/29/2003
Status: offline 		as for not beeing combat ready - your fault you were within my perimeter
transport formation are allowed on my sides west of eniwotek only

but all good what ends good - this way we have good chance for entering 45 and see some shinden in action

< Message edited by Sneer -- 5/26/2006 6:46:14 PM >

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(in reply to Sneer)
Post #: 668
report : battle at Canton Isl day 6 epilogue - 5/26/2006 7:27:54 PM   
Sneer


Posts: 2654
Joined: 10/29/2003
Status: offline 		i had no faith in running for Pago APgo but refueled and chased BBs at palmyra today
during night BB new mexico was reported sunk
to see how Raverdave is furious .... he attacked Kendari with his mighty B17 force
109 were shot down by fighters with loss of 29 and few bombers on the ground + 2 shot by flak
from 270 attacking b17 only 36 made bombing run
i don't need to say that next turn there was no damage to airfield :-)

balanse of the day
4 vals lost to 2BB 1 CL
CVE shoul sink as well as CA San Francisco




AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 01/26/43

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack at 5,104 /perth area

Japanese Ships
SS I-31

Allied Ships
AK Autolycus, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage / sunk
MSW Glenelg
MSW Arnidale

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack at 106,86

Japanese Ships
SS I-20

Allied Ships
CL Phoenix


Day Air attack on Kendari , at 33,71

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 37
A6M3 Zero x 42
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 53

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 270

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 8 destroyed, 22 damaged
A6M3 Zero: 4 destroyed, 31 damaged
Ki-61 KAIc Tony: 12 destroyed, 30 damaged
Ki-21 Sally: 3 destroyed
G3M Nell: 2 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 91 destroyed, 88 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
38 casualties reported

Airbase hits 5
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 14

Aircraft Attacking:
13 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
1 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
1 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
5 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet

Day Air attack on TF at 103,92

Japanese aircraft
D3A Val x 5
B5N Kate x 11

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N Kate: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
CL Concord, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage / sunk

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
5 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 104,90

Japanese aircraft
D3A Val x 20
A6M3a Zero x 33
B5N Kate x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 4 damaged
B5N Kate: 3 damaged

Allied Ships
BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 10, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
7 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
9 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 104,90

Japanese aircraft
D3A Val x 20
B5N Kate x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 4 damaged
B5N Kate: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
CA San Francisco, Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
9 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
9 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 104,93

Japanese aircraft
D3A Val x 6
A6M3a Zero x 40
B5N Kate x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
B5N Kate: 5 damaged

Allied Ships
BB California, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage /sunk

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
5 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 104,90

Japanese aircraft
D3A Val x 10
B5N Kate x 7

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 1 damaged
B5N Kate: 3 damaged

Allied Ships
BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 5

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
1 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
9 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 107,94

Japanese aircraft
D3A Val x 12
A6M3a Zero x 31
B5N Kate x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
CVE Chenango, Bomb hits 8, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B5N Kate bombing at 16000 feet
9 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 103,93

Japanese aircraft
D3A Val x 8

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 2 destroyed, 4 damaged

Allied Ships
BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet



< Message edited by Sneer -- 5/26/2006 7:28:38 PM >

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(in reply to Sneer)
Post #: 669
RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 6 epilogue - 5/26/2006 7:53:05 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		What fighter caused most of the B-17 losses? Tonys?

(in reply to Sneer)
Post #: 670
RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 4 - 5/26/2006 10:21:22 PM   
Capt. Harlock


Posts: 5358
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline 		Pity about the allied losses, but it was an awe-inspiring battle for we spectators. I apologize for whatever comments I've made about Raver's taking too long to launch the counterattack. Essex came on-line a bit early, didn't she?

_____________________________

Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 671
RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 6 epilogue - 5/27/2006 12:04:54 AM   
ADavidB


Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline 		Sneer has clearly achieved a decisive victory here. The Allied Naval forces have been crushed and will be effectively out of action for a minimum of a game-year, if not for more. Even ignoring "auto-victory", it's hard to see how the Allies can recover from this disaster and turn the tide. The question now is: what are the lessons to be learned from this?

First off, it is obvious that Sneer's strategy of husbanding Japanese naval strength and optimizing Japanese naval air power has paid off. At the same time, one does have to second guess that same strategy because it did allow Raver to accumulate a dangerously strong Allied naval force. More aggressive use of the Japanese carriers in 1942 might have put them at risk, but it also might have reduced the numbers of Allied carriers that could be fielded at this point in 1943. Equally, one can ask - if Raver had held off for a few more months, would a similar battle in mid-1943 have turned out the same way?

That speculation aside, it is also interesting to compare the game situation with the historical situation. In early 1943 the US was still "island hopping" in the South Pacific in regions where there were plenty of islands that could provide "unsinkable aircraft carriers". The first mid-ocean atoll invasion came late in 1943 at Tarawa, and at that point the Japanese naval air had been already reduced to a state of near uselessness.

What this match indicates to me is that an Allied player can't afford to attempt mid-ocean atoll invasions until late 1943, exactly like the historical situation. Sure, waiting longer allows the Japanese player to put more crack infantry units on key Pacific bases, but it really doesn't matter if there are no troops or 10 divisions on an atoll if the Allied naval forces are crushed during an attempted invasion. The real threat to Allied activities remains the Japanese naval air power, and until the Allies can overpower Japanese naval air power in battle the Allied options for counteroffensives will be very limited.

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to Sneer)
Post #: 672
RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 6 epilogue - 5/28/2006 2:00:17 AM   
Capt. Harlock


Posts: 5358
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

The question now is: what are the lessons to be learned from this?


Personally, I think the only real lesson from this particular dust is: there is NO substitute for luck.

_____________________________

Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 673
RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 6 epilogue - 5/28/2006 2:28:39 AM   
FeurerKrieg


Posts: 3397
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline 		Haven't read much of this AAR but I think I will start watching it now. The heir to PZB comment certainly seems to apply.


_____________________________


Upper portion used with permission of www.subart.net, copyright John Meeks

(in reply to Capt. Harlock)
Post #: 674
report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2 - 5/28/2006 7:33:58 PM   
Sneer


Posts: 2654
Joined: 10/29/2003
Status: offline 		Hi
it is not over
chase day 2
i decided to hunt wounded BBs these which costed me so many pilots
without them allied ability of wiping out my atolls will be much lowered
i know i could try to kill hornet and essex by i don't care. as Raver stated - he will get so many CVs soon that this will not make big diffrence but sinking his artillery support ships will make a diffrence and i think even a big one
2 surface groups each based on CA were detached for hunting in the night
sub were ordered into harbour and CV were moved north
here are results
West Virginia , Tennessee, Sangamon ,San Francisco sunk - Nevada should join them soon it got 3 torps and at least 2 earlier plus heavy shells
allied total losses reached 4CV 1CVE 3 fast BB 4 slow BB 1CA + smaller
i think next turn will be the last until Raverdave finds any way to continue this struggle
i have high losses in kates and vals but only 70 fighters are lost from KB

Sub attack near Palmyra at 106,85

Japanese Ships
SS I-5

Allied Ships
CL Phoenix, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat at 104,89


Allied aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft losses
SOC-3 Seagull: 1 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CA Nachi
CA Ashigara
CA Mikuma
CA Suzuya
CL Sendai
DD Takanami
DD Arare

Allied Ships
CA San Francisco, Shell hits 31, and is sunk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat at 105,88

Japanese Ships
CA Tone
CA Myoko
CA Haguro
CA Kumano
CL Natori
DD Susuzuki
DD Hatsuzuki

Allied Ships
BB Tennessee, Shell hits 48, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage / sunk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack near Palmyra at 106,85

Japanese Ships
SS I-5, hits 3

Allied Ships
DD Radford


Day Air attack on TF at 107,92

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 10
D3A Val x 20
A6M3a Zero x 2
B5N Kate x 17

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
CVE Sangamon, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage / sunk

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
5 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
2 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
9 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 107,92

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 6
B5N Kate x 13

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
CVE Sangamon, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
1 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 107,92

Japanese aircraft
D3A Val x 9
A6M3a Zero x 8
B5N Kate x 7

No Japanese losses

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
1 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 107,92

Japanese aircraft
D3A Val x 16
A6M3a Zero x 56
B5N Kate x 5

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 4 damaged
B5N Kate: 4 damaged

Allied Ships
BB Nevada, Bomb hits 8, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
7 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
9 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 103,91

Japanese aircraft
D3A Val x 14
B5N Kate x 18

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 2 damaged
B5N Kate: 1 destroyed, 5 damaged

Allied Ships
BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage / sunk

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
1 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
1 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
9 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 107,92

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 10
D3A Val x 8
A6M3a Zero x 12
B5N Kate x 18

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N Kate: 9 damaged

Allied Ships
BB Nevada, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Saufley

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
8 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
1 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
1 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet



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Post #: 675
RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2 - 5/28/2006 8:12:08 PM   
ADavidB


Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline 		I stand by my comments above - you've wiped out the Allied navy. One can't attribute this to luck. I don't believe that there is any way for Raver to come back, regardless of the reinforcements that he gets later on. And from looking at the recent results in PzB's saga, Japanese planes are definitely not pushovers even in 1944. (He has been wiping out 4E bombers and Hellcats as if they were B-18s and Buffalos...)

Unless you do something incredibly silly, you've won this game cleanly. Congratulations!

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to Sneer)
Post #: 676
RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2 - 5/28/2006 8:23:46 PM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		Extremely impressive results and I was glad to see the pursuit being pressed and being pressed against BBs instead of CVs. I think, Sneer, that that was entirely the correct decision. When 1944 comes around the loss of seeral BBs ( and DMS to be fair ) will hurt the Allies more than the loss of another few CVs or CVLs.

Of course this victory only came about because of a clear appreciation of strategic strengths and their husbanding for the decisive battle. With 1.801 allowing much easier pilot replenishment it should be possible to bring the damaged strike groups up to full strength quickly.

Perhaps it is time to begin relatively random raids on CONUSA/Pearl supply lines? You have little to fear from his naval air strength anymore and even a few raids would discomfit Raver immensely.

Still, whatever your decision, kudos to you. Any talk of luck is ill-advised. When the basics are observed the outcome is often favourable. Many then label that as "lucky" unaware of all of the basics which had to be fulfilled in order to "get lucky".

(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 677
RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2 - 5/28/2006 8:24:05 PM   
aztez

 

Posts: 4031
Joined: 2/26/2005
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

I stand by my comments above - you've wiped out the Allied navy. One can't attribute this to luck. I don't believe that there is any way for Raver to come back, regardless of the reinforcements that he gets later on. And from looking at the recent results in PzB's saga, Japanese planes are definitely not pushovers even in 1944. (He has been wiping out 4E bombers and Hellcats as if they were B-18s and Buffalos...)

Unless you do something incredibly silly, you've won this game cleanly. Congratulations!

Dave Baranyi



I do agree somewhat with this. Only way to go for Raver is to build up his CV Fleet with time. I would estimate that it will autumn of 1944 before Allies can even think anykind of major offensive action.

I disagree with fact that allied planes are pushovers in 1944. The game I have ongoing with FDR has shown me how lethal Thunderbolts, P38's, Hellcats (Solid CV fighters) and Corsairs are. I don't have any experience with B29's but I hope that they are a major headache for Japanese side.

If Japanese can pull off couple more victories still in this one than I would say that Sneer will have this game won. Intresting to see what happens.

(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 678
RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2 - 5/28/2006 8:30:36 PM   
Sneer


Posts: 2654
Joined: 10/29/2003
Status: offline 		I belive that any carrier battle will not happen sooner than in late 43
if it will be later it will be extremaly difficult - maybe even impossible to win
think about hellcats and allied cap bonus since 7/43
i did a lot to build confidence in allied player ( there was no offensive move from Japan in last 6 months ) and made Raverdave to forget that i'm rather aggressive player and i don't fear confrontation ..... but numbers win the war
Thanks for congrats ... but i don't think i can win this war
if only i could build more ships ....
sooner or later allied will gather many ships again - i can't count on next opportunity
allied need only one decisive victory at sea - Japan needs 4-5 of them to be safe and each next battle will be more difficult
i hope to sink 2-3 more capitals next turn and still think what would be if i try to attack his forces at Pago pago
good news is that Taiyo is at 27 sys no float and Hiyo is 38 sys 18 flt
Akagi and BBs are in worse condition and this info is still confidential but Akagi is not needed immiedietaly as Taiho will be ready in a few days

i think that Raverdave has limited options now
India are possible but i doubt he can gather anough troops to fight in lvl 9 urban enviroment
so southern dei is most probable and maybe salomons - but it would be difficult even to him
there is also good chance that operations against wake and canton will be conducted as i can't keep whole fleet in Cen Pac all the time
i feel strong as land combat is concerned and last massacre of 4e bombers should slow down enemy air offensive to more usual tempo

_____________________________


(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 679
RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2 - 5/28/2006 8:39:39 PM   
Sneer


Posts: 2654
Joined: 10/29/2003
Status: offline 		thanks for your presence in this AAR
...it is inspiring

as for raiding - after my early war raids in deep pacific Raver started using map edge routes so it will be difficult to find him unless he makes a mistake and he can be extramaly cautius if needed
and remember Raverdave is a really good player and will wait for overconfidence movement now

_____________________________


(in reply to Sneer)
Post #: 680
RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2 - 5/28/2006 8:49:04 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		This aint over Raver will be back the Allies are never truly out of WITP.

Sneer has done well and Raver got a little careless

This is far form over <gets the popcorn>

p.s. dont read to much into PZB killing off Hellcats in my game the pilots were fatigued at low level and the xp wasnt that high

Although the Jack and even Tony/Tojo are provign good opponents for the Hellcat its just Zekes and other zero family fighters that really struggle v Hellcats

< Message edited by Andy Mac -- 5/28/2006 8:50:40 PM >

(in reply to Sneer)
Post #: 681
RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2 - 5/28/2006 8:56:18 PM   
ADavidB


Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

This aint over Raver will be back the Allies are never truly out of WITP.

Sneer has done well and Raver got a little careless

This is far from over <gets the popcorn>

p.s. dont read to much into PZB killing off Hellcats in my game the pilots were fatigued at low level and the xp wasnt that high


Andy - "everyone" keeps on saying what you just said, but where are the AARs to show Japanese players getting wiped the way that Allied players keep on getting wiped?

"A Little Careless" usually takes the Allied player right out of the game. An Allied player has to play a "perfect" game against anyone but a total newbie, and we haven't seen much of that...

Again, congrats to Sneer for playing very close to "perfect" as the Japanese, and best of luck to you - I want to learn from your future successes!

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 682
RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2 - 5/28/2006 8:59:55 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Umm I think Im doing ok against PZB and that was after a fair number of disasters and he is a good player. (Could be a nasty ambush waiting for me though !!!)

The allies are never really out of it cant talk to much about plans in this thread operational security and all that but that Allies can come back.

Hell with no carriers Nomad fought right back through the solomons LBA is the key to the allied fight back IMO

Raver will be back I am sure

< Message edited by Andy Mac -- 5/28/2006 9:00:24 PM >

(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 683
RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2 - 5/28/2006 9:02:47 PM   
ADavidB


Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

sooner or later allied will gather many ships again - i can't count on next opportunity
allied need only one decisive victory at sea - Japan needs 4-5 of them to be safe and each next battle will be more difficult


This is the interesting challenge for you. You did a great job of preparing for this confrontation and you exceeded most everyone's expectations. But now I think that you need to go "hunting" and you must stay in "hunter" mode. Allied ships sitting in the West Coast are not a threat, and if they can be intercepted piecemeal in the Eastern Pacific then you can keep Raver from massing enough strength to challenge you. But to do this you need to figure out a means to provide a few strong bases from which you can raid with impunity in the Eastern Pacific.

I don't feel that you can sit and await the next big Allied challenge - you may well defeat it again, but why take the chance? Instead, bring the challenge back to the Allies while they are reeling from this defeat. Stay on the offensive and there will never be an Allied comeback.

Good luck -

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to Sneer)
Post #: 684
RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2 - 5/28/2006 9:13:45 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		I agree with A David you need to keep on him CA's CL's and CV re spawn BB's dont and he will need them to attack later you need to finish them while you can and disrupt his LOC while he cannot interfere.

Its annoying as hell for the allies but the West Coast - Pearl route suddenly got very exposed

(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 685
RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2 - 5/29/2006 6:14:43 AM   
Capt. Harlock


Posts: 5358
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

Any talk of luck is ill-advised. When the basics are observed the outcome is often favourable. Many then label that as "lucky" unaware of all of the basics which had to be fulfilled in order to "get lucky".


Ill-advised? I call on both Sneer and Raver. If the Japanese forces had been spotted a day earlier, and Raver had gotten in an airstrike or two to achieve air superiority, this encounter could have gone very much the other way. The Allies had considerably more surface firepower in the area. Under an air umbrella the Japanese surface forces could have been essentially eliminated.

_____________________________

Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 686
RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2 - 5/29/2006 10:06:02 AM   
Sneer


Posts: 2654
Joined: 10/29/2003
Status: offline
the only chance to stand against battle ready 750+ planes from KB was perfect ready allied battlegroup , nothing else
i think Raver was lucky as
1. my division did not move together so he could attack my weakest part - in normal condition i would not loose Zuiho i think
2. i could not attack Essex group for 2 days and meanwhile
a) he attacked my damaged ships
b) i lost 40+ kates attacking BBs - otherwise Hornet and Essex would be sunk now

< Message edited by Sneer -- 5/29/2006 10:50:24 AM >

_____________________________


(in reply to Capt. Harlock)
Post #: 687
RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2 - 5/29/2006 1:10:09 PM   
ADavidB


Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline 		"the only chance to stand against battle ready 750+ planes from KB was perfect ready allied battlegroup"

Which does raise an interesting question - how does one attack a battle-ready 750+ plane KB on its own grounds?

I can see how to do it if one has LBA support, but otherwise that implies a need for a dozen Essex-class carriers with Hellcats and well-trained crews for a deliberate head-on-head confrontation.

You've given me a lot to think about here.

Thanks -

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to Sneer)
Post #: 688
RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2 - 5/29/2006 1:23:24 PM   
veji1

 

Posts: 1019
Joined: 7/9/2005
Status: offline 		well what we can get from this battle is not that allied cannot attack before late 43, just that, as they did in real life, they can attack in LBA areas early, where CVs + LBA is good enough to fight KB, but they cannot go island hopping in the middle of the pacific, if they don't know the whereabouts of KB, or haven't already weakened it significantly...

Raver's operation was very bold, not in the sense that it couldn't be executed, but in the sense that doing it facing the whole KB was very risky indeed...

But I really think we shouldn't conclude that "this proves allies should hide till mid 43"... Because it doesn't, it just proves that you cannot adventure your self in the ocean without having established naval air control before...

But for example, had Raver planned a similar operation in Timor or Solomons, or Aleutians, the issue would have been very different...

And one last thing, as Sneer puts it, he spent lots of time nursing his forces and letting Raver get confortable... had the last 6 months of war been more active, he would have been more cautious for sure...

Anyway, I can't wait for the rest of the story...

(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 689
RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2 - 5/29/2006 2:33:32 PM   
jumper

 

Posts: 489
Joined: 2/23/2006
Status: offline 		It is questionable what would happen if Raver was ready and his fleet was in battle formation. His fleets were divided and arrived in battle one by one just to be toasted. Sneers forces were ready (with only one exception for what the fleet paid the price).
I would say that at this stage of war the fleets are nearly equeal and chances are 1:1. That´s what makes this victory so sweet and interesting. Prepared IJN surprised unprepared  and scattered enemy (with a bit of luck - the chances that catalinas will miss to spot the whole IJN are pretty low) and that´s what decided the whole battle IMO.
There was a luck on Sneers side, but he was there with the BIG hammer to grab offered chance.

(in reply to veji1)
Post #: 690
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