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TO&E and OOB information - 8/11/2012 12:50:48 PM   
aspqrz02

 

Posts: 1024
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Status: offline 		I've been having a look at the Nafziger OOB/TO&E collection ...

http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/nafziger.asp

(Download the Finding Aid ...)

... and it has pretty good data for German units for 1941-43 (and later, but I limited my examination to the most relevant period), but for Axis Allies (Romania, Hungary, Italy, Slovakia etc.) the information is nowhere near as good.

The German info gives data down to company level or lower for many, if not most, units, for example. That is, the major equipment issued to the Company, though not always the number of men in it.

For the Axis allies, however, most of the data goes down only to Division level - usually only a list of the Regiments, and no data on what their equipment was. For some Axis allied units, Regimental data is provided, often for elements that aren't particularly useful for us ... and for a rare few, lower level units have data provided, again, often not for units that are militarily relevant (who needs to know the TO&E for the Divisional Postal Company, for example?!)

I haven't checked the Soviet OOB/TO&E information at all.

So, afaict, it should be possible to do a reasonably accurate German OOB/TO&E to upgrade some of the anomalies that exist as DCCB stands, and possibly ditto for the Russians.

For the Axis allies, not so much ... unless someone has access to data for Regimental and/or lower level equipment for the Romanians, Hungarians and Italians, for example.

Even if only for some Regiments of some Divisions that we could extrapolate from. For example, it's nice to know that a Romanian Infantry XX has an Artillery Regiment ... but how many tubes, and of what type, was it equipped? Things like that.

Anyone have any data, or a line on it? Preferably online, unless you happen to have an actual OOB/TO&E book on your bookshelves and are prepared to summarise for us?

Anyone?

Phil

< Message edited by aspqrz -- 8/11/2012 4:31:20 PM >

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RE: TO&E and OOB information - 8/11/2012 1:12:13 PM   
aspqrz02

 

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Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		OK. Quick search shows ...

http://www.worldwar2.ro/

... for Romania, but the data on organisation is in narrative form, and difficult to mine effectively. There is also ...

http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/Orders-of-Battle/Romania/Romanian-Forces-1942.htm

... which is less detailed but, perhaps, more usable.

There is also some information on Slovak, Croatian and Spanish Eastern front units at ...

http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/Orders-of-Battle/Axis-Minors/Eastern-Front-Allies.htm

Limited information on the Hungarian army ...

http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/Orders-of-Battle/Hungary/Hungarian-Forces-1942.htm

More detailed Hungarian OOBs ...

http://niehorster.orbat.com/015_hungary/__vkf.htm
http://niehorster.orbat.com/015_hungary/42-07-01/div_inf_42.html
http://niehorster.orbat.com/015_hungary/42-07-01/div_armd_42.html
http://niehorster.orbat.com/015_hungary/occupation/42_div-sec.html
http://niehorster.orbat.com/015_hungary/43_organ/_43_org.html

Deployment of Axis Minors forces by theaters (1942) ...

http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/Orders-of-Battle/theaters-1942-Axis-minors.htm

Italy, Italian Expeditionary Force, 1941 and 42 ...

http://niehorster.orbat.com/019_italy/41-08-05_csir/_csir.html
http://niehorster.orbat.com/019_italy/42-08-08_ARMIR/army_08.html

(click on some of the units with dark red borders for more detailed lower level information)

Italy, overall, click on the Military Organisations for detailed(ish) unit OOBs ...

http://niehorster.orbat.com/019_italy/__italy.htm

That's what I have found so far ... and even so, it doesn't always drill down as deep as we probably need for a completely accurate OOB, though we may be able to get better than the existing one

Phil

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RE: TO&E and OOB information - 8/11/2012 1:19:52 PM   
bwheatley

 

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Status: offline 		Nice link i was actually just trying to look for a good 1942 SS Panzer Division TOE. :) Cause what's there now is actually under what a heer PzD has.

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RE: TO&E and OOB information - 8/11/2012 4:14:36 PM   
Redmarkus5


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Status: offline 		If you guys can give me simple results for generic TOEs of each unit type (expressed in DCCB terms - so tell my 5 Inf, 5 Pz III, etc.) I'll edit the units in the Case Blue scenario.

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RE: TO&E and OOB information - 8/11/2012 4:30:58 PM   
aspqrz02

 

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Status: offline 		OK. In DCCB terms ... how many

Infantry = 1 Infantry Point
Tanks = 1 Tank Point
Artillery Tubes = 1 Artillery Point
and etc. for whatever weapon types

... always assuming that this is not a 1:1 correspondence?

And, forex, for Infantry, does this assume a certain number of MGs and the like, or are they separate. I assume, unlike ATG, that it is the former?

Phil

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RE: TO&E and OOB information - 8/11/2012 4:55:45 PM   
Redmarkus5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

OK. In DCCB terms ... how many

Infantry = 1 Infantry Point
Tanks = 1 Tank Point
Artillery Tubes = 1 Artillery Point
and etc. for whatever weapon types

... always assuming that this is not a 1:1 correspondence?

And, forex, for Infantry, does this assume a certain number of MGs and the like, or are they separate. I assume, unlike ATG, that it is the former?

Phil


It can be set differently for any scenario (and also changed by a modder) but in DCCB Vanilla and all my mod versions it is 100/1 for infantry and 5/1 for everything else.

But you can just tell me the values you want to see on the unit display.




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RE: TO&E and OOB information - 8/11/2012 5:25:58 PM   
aspqrz02

 

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Status: offline 		It's 2:30 am local time, and I'm off to bed ... back tomorrow with some data, as Infantry 100:1 and Everything Else 5:1

It will probably take some time, and some guesswork for the Axis Minors, at the very least!

Phil

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RE: TO&E and OOB information - 8/12/2012 2:33:45 AM   
aspqrz02

 

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Status: offline 		Infantry can't be 100:1 in DCCB!

A Romanian Infantry Regiment has 2000 Infantry in the TO&E = 20000 Infantry by that conversion!

Considering that the Regiment + attachments is really a Brigade, actual strength would be closer to 3000-4000 actual infantry (3 x Regiments in a Division = 9-12000 men, and the 1942 TO&E was 13,500 for the Division).

So, 3-4 Infantry = 1 Infantry point

Phil

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RE: TO&E and OOB information - 8/12/2012 2:57:07 AM   
LiquidSky


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

Infantry can't be 100:1 in DCCB!

A Romanian Infantry Regiment has 2000 Infantry in the TO&E = 20000 Infantry by that conversion!

Considering that the Regiment + attachments is really a Brigade, actual strength would be closer to 3000-4000 actual infantry (3 x Regiments in a Division = 9-12000 men, and the 1942 TO&E was 13,500 for the Division).

So, 3-4 Infantry = 1 Infantry point

Phil



2000 * 100 is 200,000

When I look at a typical axis minor regiment on the map, its value is in the lower 30's....

For example...of the 23rd Light Infantry Division. The 23rd Hungarian Light Division has in one of its two regiments:

2300 infantry (Hun)
30 37mm PAK
10 75mm LEIG
5 105mm LEFH

2300 divided by 100 is 23
30 divided by 5 is 6
10 divided by 5 is 2
5 divided by 5 is 1

add them up and you get its strength on the counter of 32

If your full strength unit is supposed to have 3000-4000 infantry....that would be 30 to 40 on the counter.

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RE: TO&E and OOB information - 8/12/2012 2:58:30 AM   
aspqrz02

 

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Status: offline 		OK. Romanian Infantry Division based on the best information I can gather ...

Romanian Infantry Division: 3 x Infantry Regiments, 2 x Artillery Regiments, 1 Recon Company, 1 AT Company (6 x 45mm AT), 1 Pioneer Battalion

Infantry Regiment: 2 x Infantry Battalions, 1 Scout Company, 1 x Pioneer Company, 1 Regimental Heavy Weapons Company (6 x 81.4mm Mortars, 6 x 120mm Mortars, 6 x 37mm Bofors AA, 18 x 37mm AT, 4 x 45mm AT, 6 x 75mm PAK (Octovber 42))

Infantry Battalion: 3 x Infantry Companies, 1 x Heavy Weapons Company (16 x Heavy MG, 6 x 60mm Mortars)

Artillery Regiment (Even #): 12 x 75mm, 12 x 76.2mm (Soviet), 12 x 100mm Howitzers

Artillery Regiment (Odd #): 12 x 75mm, 12 x 100mm Howitzers

How does this shape up in DCCB terms? This is a guess, as I have no idea how many infantry are in a Company/Battalion/Regiment ... I'm guessing c. 200 for a Company, c. 6-700 for a Battalion and, therefore, c. 1500-1800 for a Regiment.

1) For a start, the Romanian Infantry XX should have 3 x Infantry Regiments and 1 x Artillery Regiment, for a total of four subunits, just like most German Divisions.

2) Romanian Infantry Regiment: 2000 Infantry (Romanian), 12 Infantry Gun (8 x 75mm LeIG, 4 x 76.2mm Soviet), 12 Lt. AA (37mm), 22 Lt AT (18 37mm PAK, 4 x 45mm Soviet), 6 x Heavy AT (75mm PAK, from late 1942)

3) Romanian Artillery Regiment: 200 2nd Line Infantry (Romanian), 16x 100mm Howitzers.

NB: The Artillery Regiment is quite weak, as the 75mm guns are really Infantry Guns and have been distributed to the Infantry Regiments, and only retains the 100mm Howitzers. However, it *should* be represented separately. The infantry strength of the Infantry Regiments subsumes the Divisional Pioneer Battalion, Divisional Recon Company, Regimental Scout Company and Regimental Pioneer Company.

Overall: The Infantry Regiments have a Lt. AT capacity, which they didn't have, but should, historically, have. The 100mm Howitzers are real Divisional Artillery, not Infantry Guns and, even though it is a weak Artillery Regiment, it should be present.

Actually, it looks as if 1-2 Infantry personnel = 1 Infantry point, but include another +1 support personnel.

Phil

< Message edited by aspqrz -- 8/12/2012 2:59:25 AM >

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RE: TO&E and OOB information - 8/12/2012 4:07:16 AM   
LiquidSky


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At the Battle of Kharkov in May the 1st Rumanian Division (under Barzotescu) had:

5th Jager Regiment with only the 2nd Battalion. about 500 men.

85th Infantry Regiment with 1st and 2nd Battalion. about 500 men each.

93rd Infantry Regiment with 1st and 2nd Battalion.. also about 500 men each.

1st Field Artillery Regt. with the 1st Battalion containing four 75mm guns, the second battlaion containing eight 75mm guns and the 3rd battalion containing eight 100mm guns. (all horse drawn)

38th Field Artillery Regt. with the 1st Battalion containing ten 75mm guns, and the second battlion containing six 100mm guns (all horse drawn)

As well, there was a company of engineers (about 150 men), a company of AT (twelve 47mm AT guns) and a motorized flak company of six 20mm Flak.

Its interesing to contrast this with the same division at the moment of Operation Uranus...

This time the division is commanded by Mihaescu

85th Infantry Regiment with 2 battalions..this time with around 180 men each.

93rd Regiment with 2 battalions..also with 180 men each.

5th Jager (or Regimentul 5 Vanatori, in Rumanian) got its 2nd battalion back, but both battalions reduced to 180 men.

The 1st Artillery Regiment has two Battalions, one with eight 75mm guns, the other with eight 100mm guns.
The 38th Artillery Regiment has two Battalions, the same as the 1st (eight 75mm and eight 100mm) all horse drawn.

As well...they have a Recon Battalion of three companies of 81 men, on foot, and one company of 81 men on horse.
And a Battalion of Engineers of three companies at 79 men each. (foot).





Even if you take the May 1942 Rumanian infantry division as 'typical' you would give them three counters with 10 infantry, 1 47mm AT, 1 75mm Art, and 1 100mm Art Strength point, for a 13 Strength.

Redmarkus, you may want to consider leaving the the Rumanian divisions (and the perhaps the Hungarians as well) as a single counter per division in the game. It would rank them about as strong as a full strength German Regiment.

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RE: TO&E and OOB information - 8/12/2012 4:15:46 AM   
LiquidSky


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Just for fun....

At the Seige of Budapest, January 1945...the 2nd Rumanian infantry division, now fighting for the Russians had:

1st Infantry regiment, with two battalions of 387 men.

26th Infantry regiment, with two battalions of 387 men.

31st Infantry regiment, with (you guessed it) two battalions of 387 men.

9th Artillery regiment, with four battalions of artillery....two horse drawn battalions of twelve 76mm M42's, one horse drawn battlion of twenty-four 76mm M42's, and a motorized battalion of 12 120mm M38 mortars.



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RE: TO&E and OOB information - 8/12/2012 4:21:11 AM   
aspqrz02

 

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Status: offline 		Romanian Mountain Division

Romanian Mountain Division: 2 x Mountain Infantry Regiments, 1 x Mountain Artillery Regiment, 1 Engineer Battalion, 1 Scout Company, 1 Motorised Lt AA Company (12 x AAMG), 1 Motorised Lt AT Company (12 47mm AT), 1 Motorised MP Company

Mountain Infantry Regiment: 3 Mountain Infantry Battalions, 1 Engineer Platoon

Mountain Infantry Battalion: 3 Mountain Infantry Companies (2 x 60mm Mortars each), 1 Mountain Heavy Weapon Company (18 HMG, 6 x 81.4mm Mortars)

Mountain Artillery Regiment: 2 x Mountain Artillery Battalions

Mountain Artillery Battalion: 24 x 75mm Gun, 12 x 100mm Howitzer.

In DCCB terms ...

1) 2 x Mountain Infantry Regiments and 1 x Mountain Artillery Regiment, rather than just two Regiments

2) Mountain Infantry Regiment (each): 1800 Mountain Infantry, 12 x 75mm Infantry Guns/Mountain Guns, 6 x Lt AA (AAMG), 6 x Lt AT (47mm AT)

3) Mountain Artillery Regiment: 200 Second Line Infantry, 24 x 75mm Mountain Guns, 24 x 100mm Howitzers

Note: I am uncertain as to the Infantry strength of the unit. Until Case Blue it was rated as a Brigade, rather than a Division, but, afaict, only the title changed ... it still had only 2 Infantry Regiments (though these could have been changed from 3 Battalion Regiments to 2 Battalion Regiments, as the Infantry Division's Infantry Regiments were ... my sources don't say. If so, reduce the strength proportionally, to, say 12000 Actual People). As with the Infantry Division, it has substantial artillery assets, and should have a separate Artillery Regiment. The 75mm Mountain Guns could all be divided into the Infantry Regiments, giving them 24 Guns per Regiment, and leaving the Artillery Regiment with 24 x 100mm Howitzers, however, I believe that some of the 75mm's should remain in the Artillery Regiment, to avoid making the Infantry Regiments too strong.

Yes. This makes the Mountain Division far stronger in artillery than the Infantry Division - but that's what the TO&E and OOBs indicate is correct, as far as I can tell. Of course, there are far fewer of them.

Phil

< Message edited by aspqrz -- 8/12/2012 4:41:52 AM >

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RE: TO&E and OOB information - 8/12/2012 4:29:55 AM   
aspqrz02

 

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Status: offline 		I think you really should have the Romanian Infantry Divisions as 3 x Infantry Regiments and 1 x (weak) Artillery Regiment ... that allows them to cover more frontage, but less effectively/strongly than a 2 x Regiment Division, and this represents the weakness of Rumanian units as shown in the way the Russians cut through them around Stalingrad.

As for the manpower strengths, I can only give the TO&E Strengths. 17500 men at the start of Barbarossa, with 3 x 3 Battalion Regiments. 13500 men by 1942, with 3 x 2 Battalion Regiments. However, the Romanians had trouble maintaining replacements and, from what I have read, had to disband all their Security Divisions (4?) after Stalingrad to bring some of their shattered Infantry Divisions back to something resembling full strength. They also disbanded and/or combined a number of shattered infantry Divisions to form a single stronger composite Division with a new Divisional #.

The Armoured Division suffered similar problems, losses outstripping ability to provide replacements, which is why it comes in as a reinforcement in the Case Blue scenario, it was badly hurt in the battles of 1941 and had to be withdrawn to be re-equipped and reinforced.

I believe that the Cavalry Divisions/Brigades and, probably, the Mountain Divisions/Brigades suffered the same problems.

Important Note: All the unit data I am giving is based, as best as I can, on the official TO&Es. That means, of course, that it is the ideal full strength state of the unit. This rarely applied, even in garrison, in peacetime, and during combat operations would be, at best, a pious hope. The best I can suggest is that Romanian units at scenario start be subject to a bigger negative fudge factor for their strength than German units are, if this can be done, as, from the little information I have come across, the Romanians had severe problems with replacing manpower on the Eastern Front.

So, Liquidsky, your figures are good ... but I am talking nominal TO&E strength, which is quite different.

Phil

Phil

< Message edited by aspqrz -- 8/12/2012 4:34:36 AM >

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RE: TO&E and OOB information - 8/12/2012 4:31:19 AM   
bwheatley

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

Infantry can't be 100:1 in DCCB!

A Romanian Infantry Regiment has 2000 Infantry in the TO&E = 20000 Infantry by that conversion!

Considering that the Regiment + attachments is really a Brigade, actual strength would be closer to 3000-4000 actual infantry (3 x Regiments in a Division = 9-12000 men, and the 1942 TO&E was 13,500 for the Division).

So, 3-4 Infantry = 1 Infantry point

Phil



It is 100:1.

here is the rom inf model


3 rom infantry regiments are the subunits

here is a Rom Inf Reg


20Inf * 100 = 2000 Guys

Then just for kicks the stats showing ratio


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RE: TO&E and OOB information - 8/12/2012 4:37:38 AM   
aspqrz02

 

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Status: offline 		So, that means the 2000 Infantry (Romanian) shown in the unit window on the Game Screen actually = 20000 Infantry?

Or does it mean that it really represents 20 Infantry Points, which happens to be 2000 Actual People.

I'm guessing the latter.

So, the values I am giving are "Actual People" not points. Clear as mud?

Phil

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RE: TO&E and OOB information - 8/12/2012 5:34:18 AM   
bwheatley

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

So, that means the 2000 Infantry (Romanian) shown in the unit window on the Game Screen actually = 20000 Infantry?

Or does it mean that it really represents 20 Infantry Points, which happens to be 2000 Actual People.

I'm guessing the latter.

So, the values I am giving are "Actual People" not points. Clear as mud?

Phil


Well it's just an abstraction I'd imagine to make large battles easier for the combat engine to handle. Instead of 9000ish(for a german div) individual units fighting which would be laggy it's just 90 infantry units.

And the counter shows you infantry X9000 to let you know it's 9000 men while the back end sftype is really only 90.

But yea to figure out how many Power Points a unit has you would look up the SFTYPE and take the # of units * PowerPts. So with infantry(1 PP) it is as you suspect
COUNTERDISPLAY/100*1

For anything but infantry it's a ratio of 5.

You see 5 Tanks that's 5/1 so only really 1 tank in the sftype.

And i just looked through 100 sftypes and it looks like for DC vic simplifed the PowerPts and all units at 1Power Point. Which i guess makes sense since this game is more about using historic reinforcements and less about building and production.


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RE: TO&E and OOB information - 8/12/2012 6:45:05 AM   
aspqrz02

 

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Status: offline 		Romanian Cavalry Brigade: Type 1 (Part Motorised) -- 5th, 6th, 8th Cavalry Brigades

Romanian Cavalry Brigade (Type 1, Part Motorised): 2 x Mounted Cavalry Regiments, 1 x Cavalry (Mot) Regiment, 1 x Horse Artillery Regiment, 1 x Recon Company (Mot), 1 x MG Company (Mot), 1 x AAMG Company (Mot), 1 x Lt AT Company (Mot), 1 x Mortar Company (Mot), 1 x Pioneer Company (Mot), 1 x MP Platoon (Mot)

Mounted Cavalry Regiment: 2 x Cavalry Battalions, 1 Pioneer Platoon

Mounted Cavalry Battalion: 2 x Cavalry Companies

Motorised Cavalry Regiment: 2 x Cavalry Battalions (Mot), 1 x Pioneer Platoon (Mot)

Motorised Cavalry Battalion (Even #): 2 x Cavalry Companies (Mot).

Motorised Cavalry Battalion (Odd #): 1 x Cavalry Company (Mot) (2 x 60mm Mortars), 1 x Cavalry Weapons Company (Mot) (8 HMG, 4 AAMG, 6 x 37mm PAK Lt AT)

Horse Artillery Regiment: 2 x Horse Artillery Battalions, 1 x AAMG Platoon (4 x AAMG)

Horse Artillery Battalion: 2 x Horse Artillery Companies (8 x 75mm IG each)

In DCCB terms ...

1) This is a 3 Regiment + 1 Artillery Regiment unit, so should have 4 (weak, admittedly) constituent units.

2) Mounted Cavalry Regiment x 2: 800 Cavalry, 8 x 75mm IG, 4 x Lt AA (AAMG)

3) Motorised Cavalry Regiment: 800 Infantry (Romanian), 6 Lt AA (AAMG), 6 Lt AT (37mm PAK), Trucks (??).

4) Horse Artillery Regiment: 200 2nd Rate Infantry (Romanian), 16 x 75mm IG, 4 x Lt AA (AAMG), 6 Lt Tank (Czech CXD/Praga AH4)

Note: The actual manpower strength of a Cavalry (Mounted or Motorised) isn't given in any source I have seen ... however, typically, Cavalry units were considerable less strong than equivalent infantry units, so I am assuming a bayonet strength of 800 per Regiment, even for the Motorised one. The Artillery Regiment is, as with the Mountain Division, spread partly amongst the two Mounted Cavalry Regiments ... but none for the Motorised Cavalry Regiment, as all the Artillery is Horse mobile, and it wouldn't make sense.

How many trucks in the Motorised Cavalry unit? The bare minimum to move it all around in trucks, I would guess ... but I have no figures available.

At some point after 1941, these Brigades are renamed as Divisions.

As with all Romanian units, there seem to have been real problems keeping them anywhere near TO&E strength, and some were destroyed or combined after Stalingrad. Keep this in mind.

Phil

< Message edited by aspqrz -- 8/12/2012 6:49:33 AM >

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RE: TO&E and OOB information - 8/12/2012 6:56:33 AM   
aspqrz02

 

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Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		Romanian Cavalry Brigade: Type 2 (Mounted) -- 1st, 7th, 9th

As for the Type 1 (Motorised) except having only 4 Light Tanks.

In DCCB terms,

1) This is a 3 Regiment + 1 Artillery Regiment unit, with four (weak) constituent units

2) Mounted Cavalry Regiments x 3: As for Type 1 Brigade plus 2 x Lt AAMG (Mot), 2 x Lt AT (37mm PAK) (Mot), 2 Lt Tank

3) Horse Artillery Regiment: As for Type 1 Brigade.

Note: There is actually only 4 Light Tanks on the TO&E, but to have three identical Regiments, up to 6 and have 2 per Regiment, unless you wish to complicate things and give one of the Regiments all 6.

Phil

< Message edited by aspqrz -- 8/12/2012 7:46:39 AM >

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(in reply to aspqrz02)
Post #: 19
RE: TO&E and OOB information - 8/12/2012 7:05:36 AM   
aspqrz02

 

Posts: 1024
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		Romanian Corps Level Units

VI Corps: 1 Motorised Infantry Regiment (perhaps use the organisation of the Motorised Cavalry Regiment from the Type 1 Brigade, as no data is provided re TO&E)

Mountain Corps: 3 x Artillery Battalions (52nd, 54th, 57th) (no data, but I'd guess treat as a single Regiment, with 2 Medium and 1 Heavy Battalions (see below) ... these may be the "All Corps" Artillery for the Mountain Corps, the OOB is not clear)

All Corps: Corps Artillery Regiment (AAMG Platoon (4 Lt AA), 1 x Heavy Artillery Battalion (12 x 150mm Howitzer), 1 x Medium Artillery Battalion (12 x 105mm Howitzer), 1 Cavalry Battalion, 1 Engineer Battalion

Phil

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Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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(in reply to aspqrz02)
Post #: 20
RE: TO&E and OOB information - 8/12/2012 7:35:57 AM   
aspqrz02

 

Posts: 1024
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		Romanian Armoured Division

Romanian 1st Armoured Division: 1 x Armoured Regiment, 2 x Motorised Infantry Regiments, 1 Motorised Artillery Regiment, 1 Mech Recon Battalion (2 Motorcycle Recon Company, 1 Cavalry Recon Company, 1 Weapons Platoon (2 Lt AA, 2 47mm AT), 1 Engineer Platoon), 1 Mot Weapons Battalion (12 Lt AA, 12 47mm AT), 1 Mot Engineer Battalion, 1 Mot MP Company

[2 Armoured Car Recon Companies nominally part of unit, but remained in Romania in 1941, dunno about 1942, no organisational details given]

Romanian Armoured Regiment: 2 Armoured Battalions (total of 41 x Lt Tank (R2 = Czeck Skoda LT35), 8 x Lt AA)

Romanian Motorised Infantry Regiment x 2: 2 x Motorised Infantry Battalions (3 x Motorised Infantry Companies, 1 x Motorised MG Company), 1 x Armoured (really Motorised) Infantry Company (4 x 47mm AT, 16 LMG, 4 HMG), 1 x Motorised Weapons Company (6 x 81mm Mortars, 6 x 37mm AT, 6 x 45mm AT)

Motorised Artillery Regiment: 2 x Medium Artillery Battalions (12 x 100mm Howitzers each), 1 x Medium Artillery Battalion (12 x 105mm Howitzer)

In DCCB Terms ...

1) 1 Armoured Regiment, 2 Motorised Infantry Regiments, 1 Motorised Artillery Regiment for a 4 element Division.

2) Armoured Regiment: 109 x Lt Tank (Skoda LT35 or, possible, Skoda Pz-38(t)), 11 x Pz-IIIn, 11 x Pz-IVg, 8 x Lt AA, 10 SdKfz 222 Armoured Cars

3) Motorised Regiment x 2: 1000 Infantry (Romanian), 16 Lt AT (4 x 47mm, 6 x 45mm, 6 x 37mm or 9 x 75mm PAK 40 or 9 x 50mm PAK), Trucks (??), 8 x Half Tracks

4) Motorised Artillery Regiment: 200 2nd Line Infantry (Romanian), 24 x 100mm Howitzer, 12 x 105mm Howitzer, Trucks (??).

Note: Again, no idea how many trucks ... but, presumably, the bare minimum. The Armour Regiment TO&E is uncetain, sources seem contradictory ... or, perhaps, it changed rapidly through CB (for example, I strongly suspect there were only about 40 LT-35 or Pzkfw 38(t)s, rather than the number alleged, and that the Pz. IIIs and IVs largely replaced any nominal additional numbers of those types ... but it's a guess, and no more. Likewise, the AT Gun strength of the Motor Infantry Regiments, by CB they seem to have had 75mm and 50mm PAK, but may still have had some of the early, smaller caliber, guns as well ... it is unclear).

Phil



< Message edited by aspqrz -- 8/12/2012 8:10:42 AM >

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Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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(in reply to aspqrz02)
Post #: 21
RE: TO&E and OOB information - 8/12/2012 7:46:13 AM   
aspqrz02

 

Posts: 1024
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		Romanian Navy

4 x DD (2 New, 2 Pre-War): 2 Pre-War = 5 x 120mm Gun, 4 x 76mm (AA?) Gun, 2 x AAMG, 4 x 18in TT, 30 mines each; 2 Modern = 5 x 120mm, 4 x 76mm AA, 2 x 40mm AA, 2 x AAMG, 3x2 21" TT

Midget Subs: 3 x Italian CB Class (2 x 450mm Torpedoes or 2 Mines)

Submarines: 3 x Italian designed (1 x 102mm Deck Gun, 4 x Fwd, 2 x Aft 533mm TT)

Fleet Torpedo Boats: six

Minelayers: 2

Motor Torpedo Boats: 7

Phil

_____________________________

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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Email: aspqrz@tpg.com.au

(in reply to aspqrz02)
Post #: 22
RE: TO&E and OOB information - 8/13/2012 3:05:00 AM   
aspqrz02

 

Posts: 1024
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		Hungarian Light Division (East Front*)

Hungarian Light Division (Augmented, 1942): 2 x Infantry Regiments, 1 Artillery Regiment, 1 Scout Company (12 LMG, 2 20mm ATR), 1 AA Company (6 x 40mm AA) 1 AAMG Company (12 x AAMG) ... approximately 15000 men, overall.

Hungarian Infantry Regiment (Augmented): 3 x Infantry Battalions, 1 Weapons Company (8 x 81mm Mortar, 6 x 47mm AT, 2 x 50mm AT, 12 HMG, 4 x 80mm Infantry Guns), 1 Engineer Platoon, 1 Scout Platoon

Hungarian Infantry Battalion: 3 x Infantry Coy (36 LMG, 6 x 50mm Mortar, 6 x 20mm ATR total), 1 HMG Coy (12 HMG), 1 AT Coy (4 37mm AT), Mortar Company (4 x 81mm Mortar) ... NB I suspect the HMG, AT and Mortar elements should be Platoons, and part of a Weapons Company.

Hungarian Artillery Regiment: 1st Battalion (4 x 80mm guns, 4 x 105mm Howitzers), 2nd Battalion (8 x 100mm Howizers, 8 x 149mm Howitzers)

* Organisation only applied to units in Russia.

Hungarian Organisation as per vanilla DCCB: 2 Regiments (2700 Infantry, 30 Light AT, 10 Infantry Gun, 5 Medium Artillery each)

Suggested revised organisation per actual TO&E in DCCB terms -

1) Three Regiment organisation - 2 x Infantry, 1 x Artillery.

2) Infantry Regiment x2: 2200 Infantry (Hungarian), 38* x Lt AT (18* x 20mm ATR, 12 x 37mm PAK 36 AT, 6 x 47mm AT, 2 x 50mm PAK 38 AT), 4 x Infantry Guns (80mm)

* Should the 20mm AT Rifles be included as Lt AT? If not, reduce Lt At to 18.

3) Artillery Regiment: 400 2nd Line Infantry (Hungarian), 4 x Infantry Guns* (80mm), 8 x 100mm Howitzer, 4 x 105mm Howitzer, 8 x 149mm Howitzer.

* Alternately, you could add +2 80mm IG to the strength of the Regiments and delete here.

Phil



< Message edited by aspqrz -- 8/13/2012 4:29:08 AM >

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Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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Email: aspqrz@tpg.com.au

(in reply to aspqrz02)
Post #: 23
RE: TO&E and OOB information - 8/13/2012 3:35:06 AM   
aspqrz02

 

Posts: 1024
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		2nd Hungarian Army (1942)
Actual OOB: III Hungarian Corps, IV Hungarian Corps, VII Hungarian Corps, 1st Hungarian Armoured Division, 2 x Heavy Artillery Battalions (Mot) (16 x 105mm Hwtzr, 8 x 150mm Hwtzr, 12 AAMG each), 1 x AA Battalion (Mot), 3 x AA Companies (Mot), Engineer Battalion (2 x Engineer Companies, 2 x Engineer Companies (Bicycle), 2 x Assault Boat Companies, 5 x Blocking Companies), 2 x Bridging Engineer Battalions, 3 x Assault Bridge Companies, 1 x Cavalry Bridge Company, 7 x Combat Bridge Companies.

III-IV-VII Hungarian Corps (1942)

DCCB: 6-7-9 Light Divisions, 1st Armoured Division, 1 Engineer Regiment

Actual OOB: 6-7-9 Light Divisions (III Corps), 10-12-13 Light Divisions (IV Corps), 19-20-23 Light Divisions (VII Corps) ... plus (all Corps) ... 1 Bicycle Infantry Battalion (Tank Platoon, Engineer Platoon, 3 x Bicycle Companies, 1 x Artillery Battery (4 x 105mm Howitzers), 1 AT Platoon(4 x 37mm AT, 2 x ATR), 25 Motrocycle, 55 Trucks, 700 Bicycles), 1 Cavalry Scout Company, 1 x Motorised AA Battalion, 2 x Heavy Artillery Regiments (Motorised), 1 x Heavy Mortar Company, 1 x Engineer Battalion, 2 x Bridging Engineer Companies, 2 x Assault Engineer Companies.

Revised OOB for DCCB ...

2nd Hungarian Army: 1st Hungarian Armoured Division, 1 x Heavy Artillery Regiment (32 x 105mm Hwtzr, 16 x 150mm Hwtzr, 32 Lt AA (not MG) 12 AAMG, sufficient trucks, 400 2nd Rate Infantry (Hungarian)), 2-7 Engineer Battalions

All Corps: Light Divisions as noted, 2 x Heavy Artillery Regiment (each with 32 x 105mm Hwtzr, 16 x 150mm Hwtzr, 32 Lt AA (not MG) 12 AAMG, sufficient trucks, 400 2nd Rate Infantry (Hungarian)), 2 x Engineer Battalions.

What to do about the Bicycle Infantry Battalion? Add Infantry to Corps unit itself? Show as a weak Regiment?

Note: Armoured Division is @ Army, not Corps, in July 42.

Phil

_____________________________

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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Email: aspqrz@tpg.com.au

(in reply to aspqrz02)
Post #: 24
RE: TO&E and OOB information - 8/13/2012 4:57:41 AM   
aspqrz02

 

Posts: 1024
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		Hungarian 1st Armoured Division

DCCB Organisation: 1 x Motorised Regiment (2700 Infantry, 30 Light AT, 10 Infantry Gun (75mm LeIG), 5 Medium Artillery (105mm LeIH), 400 Trucks), 1 Armoured Regiment (100 Lt Tank (Pz 38t), 20 Medium Tank (Pz IVg/IVf), 20 Light Tank Toldi), 20 SP AA (Nimrod)).

Actual Organisation: 1 Armour Regiment (2 Battalions), 1 Motorised Infantry Regiment (3 Battalions), 1 Recon Battalion, 1 Motorised Artillery Regiment, 1 Motorised AA Battery, 1 Pioneer Company, 1 Motorised MP Company, 1 Reserve Armour Unit (4 Lt, 2 Mdm Tanks)

Suggested DCCB organisation ...

1) 3 Regiments ... 1 Armoured, 1 Motorised Infantry, 1 Artillery

2) Hungarian Armoured Regiment: 22 Pz IVF2, 92 Pz 38t, 24 Toldi Light Tanks, 18 Nimrod SP AA, 12 x 40mm AT Guns (Motorised), 14 Csaba Armoured Cars,

3) Hungarian Motorised Regiment: 2200 Infantry (Hungarian), 400 Engineers (Hungarian), 30* x Lt AT (18* x 20mm ATR, 12 x 50mm PAK 38 AT), 6 x 40mm Lt AA, 300* Trucks

* Should the 20mm AT Rifles be included as Lt AT? If not, reduce Lt At to 12. I'm guessing for the number of trucks, should be the bare minimum needed.

4) Hungarian Motorised Artillery Regiment: 24 x 105mm Howitzers, 4 x Hvy AA (80mm), 200 2nd Line (Hungarian) Infantry, Sufficient Trucks (Bare minimum needed)

Note: The organisation of the Armoured Division is confused. Each source I have checked gives significantly different organisations and equipment levels for tanks. The above seems a reasonable compromise. The vanilla DCCB organisation comes close to note of them, FYI.

Phil

_____________________________

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@tpg.com.au

(in reply to aspqrz02)
Post #: 25
RE: TO&E and OOB information - 8/13/2012 5:28:12 AM   
aspqrz02

 

Posts: 1024
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		Italian 8th Army (August 1942)

DCCB: 900 Staff (Italian)

Actual Organisation: III Corps, XXXV Corps, Alpini Corps, Vicenza Security Division, Barbo Cavalry Brigade, 2 Motorised Artillery Regiments (1 with 5 149mm Battalions and 1 210mm Battalionl 1 with 3 x 75mm Battalions), 1 Cavalry Artillery Regiment (3 x 75mm Battalions), 1 AA Regiment (5 x 75mm AA Battalions), 4 x AA Companies (20mm AA), 4 Engineer Battalions, 2 Railroad Engineer Battalions, 1 MG Battalion, Monte Cervino Ski Battalion, Croatian Legion (Regiment)

Vicenza Security Division: 2 Infantry Regiments (2 Infantry Battalions, 1 Mortar Company (6 x 81mm), 1 Infantry Gun Company (8 x 65/17) each), 1 MP Battalion, 1 MG Battalion, 1 AT Company (Mot) (4 x 47/32), 1 Engineer Company

Barbo Cavalry Brigade: 2 x Cavalry Regiments (2 x Cavalry Battalions, 1 MG Company each)

II Corps (August 1942)

DCCB: 900 Staff (Italian), 3 Infantry Divisions

Actual Organisation: 2nd Sforseca Infantry Division, 3rd Ravenna ID, 5th Cosseria ID, 23rd Marzo CCNN Brigade, 1 x MG Battalion (Mot), 1 a MG Battalion, 1 x AT Battalion (Mot) (47mm), 1 x Artillery Regiment (Mot) (2 x 105mm, 2 x 149mm Battalions), 2 x AA Companies (20mm), 1 Assault Engineer Battalion, HQ Guard element (Mot)

XXXV Corps (August 1942)

Actual Organisation: 9th Pasubio ID, 52nd Torino ID, 3rd PADA Cavalry Division, 3rd Gennaio CCNN Brigade, 1 MG Battalion (Mot), 1 Bersaglieri Company (Bicycle? Motorcycle?), 1 At Battalion (47mm), 1 Artillery Regiment (Mot) (3 x 105mm Battalion, 1 x 149mm Battalion), 2 x AA Company (Mot) (20mm), 1 Assaukt Engineer Battalion, HQ Guard Element (Mot)

Alpini Corps (August 1942)

Actual Organisation: 2nd Tridentia MntnD, 3rd Julia MntnD, 4th Cuneese MntnD, 1 Artillery Regiment (Mot) (3 x 105mm, 1 x 149mm Battalions), 1 Assault Engineer Battalion, Corps HQ Guard Element (Mot)

Note: II Corps is the only on-map unit at the start of CB Scenario.

Suggested DCCB Organisation to follow,

Phil


_____________________________

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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Email: aspqrz@tpg.com.au

(in reply to aspqrz02)
Post #: 26
RE: TO&E and OOB information - 8/13/2012 9:02:40 AM   
aspqrz02

 

Posts: 1024
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		2nd Sforzesca, 3rd Ravenna, 5th Cosseria Infantry Divisions -- II (Italian) Corps (August 1942)

DCCB: 2 x Regiments (2700 Infantry (Italian), 10 Lt AT, 10 Infantry Gun each)

Actual Strength: 2 x Infantry Regiments. 1 x Artillery Regiment (Mot), 1 x Mortar Battalion, 2 x AT Companies (Mot), 1 x Engineer Comnpany

Infantry Regiment: 3 x Infantry Battalions, 1 x Mortar Company (6 x 81mm), 1 x Infantry Gun Company (8 x 65/17mm)

Artillery Regiment: 2 x Artillery Battalions (Mot) (4 x 75mm IG each), 1 x Artillery Battalion (Mot) (4 x 105/20mm), 2 x AA Company (8 x 20mm each), 1 x AT Company (6 x 75mm AT)

Suggested DCCB Strength ...

1) Two Infantry and one Artillery Regiments

2) Infantry Regiment: 1800 Infantry (Italian), 8 x Infantry Gun (65mm), 4 x Lt (47mm) AT

3) Artillery Regiment: 200 2nd Line Infantry (Italian), 12 x 75mm Infantry Gun, 12 x 75mm Pack Howitzer, 12 x 105mm Howitzer, 8 x lt AA (20mm), 6 x 75mm AT, Trucks (just sufficient)

Note: The Artillery Regiment organisation is somewhere between the 1941 and 1943 TO&Es, as there is none I have found for 1942 ... and is noted to be *theoretical* and that the 105mm Guns were most likely not there, in the many Regiments that were understrength. Take your pick for 1942, but it is unlikely to have been any better than 1943.

No trucks, except in the Artillery. Italian Infantry Divisions were, theoretically, "Semi-Motorised" ... which meant they had enough transport, organic to the Division (not the Regiments or Battalions) to move a Battalion at a time by truck. The Germans were pissed off when they found out that the Italian "Motorised" units were not any better than a German Infantry Division ... and the few trucks the Italian Divisions had were soon clapped out trying to move 6 x Battalions, 1 at a time.

How you represent this is up to you. Me? I'd just pretend the only Motorised unit is the Artillery, which *was* Motorised.

Note: All the Italian Divisions that enter as Reinforcements should be on this scale.

YMMV

Phil

_____________________________

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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Email: aspqrz@tpg.com.au

(in reply to aspqrz02)
Post #: 27
RE: TO&E and OOB information - 8/13/2012 9:33:42 AM   
aspqrz02

 

Posts: 1024
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		Italian Cavalry (1942)

DCCB Cavalry Division: 1 Cavalry Regiment (2000 Cavalry (Italian), 20 SP Gun (Semovente 47), 10 Lt AT (47mm), 10 Lt Flak (20mm)); 1 Bersaglieri Regiment (1500 Infantry (Italian), 40 Light Tanks (L6/40), 10 Lt AT (47mm), 10 Lt Flak (20mm), 200 Trucks)

Actual Organisation, 3rd Mobile Division, Principe Amedeo Duca D'Aosta: 2 x Bersaglieri Regiment (Mot) (each of 3 x Bersaglieri Battalions (Mot)), 1 x Artillery Regiment (Mot), 1 x Bersaglieri Battalion (Motorcycle or Bicycle?), 2 x AT Company (Mot), 1 Armoured Battalion (L6/40 tanks), Engineer Company.

Suggested DCCB Organisation ...

1) 2 Bersaglieri Regiments and 1 Artillery Regiment ... three elements

2) Bersaglieri Regiment: 2000 Infantry (Italian), 20 Lt Tank (L6/40), 10 x 47mm AT, Trucks (bare minimum)

3) Artillery Regiment: 200 2nd Rate Infantry (Italian), 12 x 100mm L17, 12 x 75mm Infantry Gun, 12 x 75mm Howitzer, 16 x Lt (20mm) AA, Trucks (Bare minimum)

Note: I've divided the single Battalion of L6/40 tanks between the two Bersaglieri Regiments, but, if you want the complication, you could have one with 40 and the other with none.

Note: Doesn't even vaguely resemble the Italian Cavalry Division TO&E given in the vanilla scenario!

Phil

DCCB Cavalry Brigade: Doesn't exist. Even though it should be the only on-map Cavalry unit at start of Case Blue.

Actual Organisation, Barbo Cavalry Brigade: 2 x Cavalry Regiment (each of 2 Cavalry Battalions and 1 x Machinegun Company)

Suggested DCCB Organisation, Barbo Cavalry Brigade: 1200 Cavalry (Italian).

Phil

< Message edited by aspqrz -- 8/13/2012 9:34:03 AM >

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Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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(in reply to aspqrz02)
Post #: 28
RE: TO&E and OOB information - 8/13/2012 12:30:08 PM   
Redmarkus5


Posts: 4456
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: 0.00
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

Infantry can't be 100:1 in DCCB!

A Romanian Infantry Regiment has 2000 Infantry in the TO&E = 20000 Infantry by that conversion!

Considering that the Regiment + attachments is really a Brigade, actual strength would be closer to 3000-4000 actual infantry (3 x Regiments in a Division = 9-12000 men, and the 1942 TO&E was 13,500 for the Division).

So, 3-4 Infantry = 1 Infantry point

Phil


What you see on the screen if the converted number - '2000' = 2000 men. The ratio applies in the editor where the TOE/OOB is defined. If you put '2000' in as the infantry number in the editor you will see 200,000 on the screen.

So, the Editor currently says '20' for the infantry SFT type.

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(in reply to aspqrz02)
Post #: 29
RE: TO&E and OOB information - 8/13/2012 12:31:11 PM   
Redmarkus5


Posts: 4456
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: 0.00
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

So, that means the 2000 Infantry (Romanian) shown in the unit window on the Game Screen actually = 20000 Infantry?

Or does it mean that it really represents 20 Infantry Points, which happens to be 2000 Actual People.

I'm guessing the latter.

So, the values I am giving are "Actual People" not points. Clear as mud?

Phil


clear

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(in reply to aspqrz02)
Post #: 30
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