Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ogier

With the recent fiftieth anniversary of the Gulf of Tonkin incident and the already existing Command scenario in mind, I humbly request a mid-sixties version of the non FRAM-modified Allen M. Sumner class as an additional platform for the Command CWDB. They show marked differences compared to the 1953 non FRAM version currently available in the CWDB.

And as it is probably the most famous non FRAM Sumner (and a scenario already exists for it), I would propose to model the new DB entry after the 1964 USS Maddox (DD-731) -- United States (Navy), 1964-1972 (thereafter to China Taiwan as “Po Yang”).

In the current version of the Tonkin Gulf scenario (Miguel Molinas “Gulf of Tonkin incident”), the USS Maddox is represented by a FRAM II Allen M. Sumner class. But the Maddox never got a standard FRAM II refit. She rather received a more limited refit, which left her with a modernized sensor and weapon fit, but without a lot of the typical FRAM II characteristics (like air facilities). The final (?) refit was right before its fateful 1964 cruise and resulted in a configuration currently not covered by the existing DB entries.

So, as far as I could figure it out, the 1964-1972 Maddox characteristics would be something like this (compared to the existing DB entries):

General Data: like existing DB entries (Captain Ogier mentions 288 as war time complement, BuPers complement as 234 and 1964 WestPac manning level as 193, so one of these values could be substituted for crew number…)

Properties: no HIFR (like 1953 Sumner)

Air Facilities: none (like 1953 Sumner)

Sensors/EW:
Air Search: AN/SPS-40 (unlike FRAM II DB entry (15 FRAM II Sumners did have AN/SPS-40 though), unlike 1953 Sumner)
Surface Search: AN/SPS-10B (like FRAM II)
Forward (main) Director: Mk 37 GFCS with Mk 25 radar (Mk 25) (like 1953 Sumner)
Aft Director: AN/SPG-35 (Mk 56 GFCD) (like 1953 Sumner)
Sonar: AN/SQS-32A (unlike 1953 Sumner, unlike FRAM II (as far as I understand it, AN/SQS-32 is an upgrade (RDT capable) of the 14 kHz version (mod.4) of AN/SQS-4))
ESM: some sort of AN/WLR-1 ? (like FRAM II – but with just one AS-571/SLR antenna assembly???)
ECM: maybe AN/ULQ-6, can’t identify ECM on pictures though…
(Remark: no VDS)

Mounts:
2x Mk11 Hedgehog ASW Mortar - forward firing; left/right of bridge
3x 127mm/38 Mk32 Twin - 2x twin mount forward (superfiring), 1x twin mount aft
2x 76mm/50 Mk33 Twin without on mount AN/SPG-34 fc – 1x centerline aft, 1x on aft deck house, facing aft, offset to port (unlike FRAM II, unlike 1953 Sumner)
2x 324mm Mk32 TT Triple – 1x port, 1x starboard (like FRAM II)
1x Mk9 Depth Charge Rack - stern
1x T Mk 6 Fanfare (like FRAM II) - stern
(Remark: no 76mm/50 singles, no on mount radar directors, no depth Charge Projectors)

Magazines:
Mk44 [External Tubes] (like FRAM II)
Mk11 Hedgehog ASW Mortar (like FRAM II)
Signatures:
Like existing DB entries
Comms/Datalinks:
Like existing DB entries
Propulsion:
Like existing DB entries

Note: Configurations of non FRAM Sumners during the sixties vary quite considerably over time and between ships. So the above configuration is just one amongst a rather bewildering amount of possible sensor/weapon configurations. But for the most part it should be rather representative. One notable exception: Maddox might have been the only non FRAM Sumner with AN/SPS-40 (instead of AN/SPS-37).

Some sources:
Ogier: USS Maddox “July-August DESOTO Patrol…” dated 24 Aug.
Ogier: USS Maddox "Report of Action, Gulf of Tonkin, 2 August 1964" dated 24 Aug.
Amico, Pittenger: “A Brief History of Active Sonar”, Aquatic Mammals 2009
Hanyok: “Spartans in Darkness: American SIGINT and the Indochina War, 1945-1975”
Moďse: “Tonkin Gulf And the Escalation of the Vietnam War”
Various Jane’s Fighting Ships editions
Various photographs available online
Various trawls through the web

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ogier

And some more:

Currently I’m fiddling around with some 1964 Tonkin Gulf situations (DESOTO, OPLAN 34A MAROPS, PIERCE ARROW, what ifs…), so I would really appreciate it if some of the following could be considered for upcoming CWDB versions:

Suggested corrections for existing CWDB platforms - North-Vietnamese /Soviet/Chicom Ships:

TK P-4 [Pr.123K]

Construction: Currently the P-4 has “Glass Reinforced Polyester” as a property. I’m not sure about the deckhouse (which might very well be the relevant part for this property?) and such, but at least the P-4 hulls were aluminum.

Speed: Currently the speeds for the P-4 are 5/20/35/55. It’s just a minor difference, but NVN sources gave a top speed of 52 kts (The engine could be run at top speed for only one hour.) and an economical speed of 35 knots, while mentioning that the boat could maintain 45 knots in a sea state 3 sea.

Fuel: The CWDB-entry has the P-4 carry 1286 kg of Diesel fuel. NVN sources mention six tanks with a combined fuel capacity of 3 tons (3000 kg). Side note: Fuel seems to have been something called “Nazout”, a “…more volatile form of diesel”. Whatever that means…

Comms: As far as I understand it, the current DB entries for Comms gear are somewhat generic, so I’m not sure if fiddling with them is appropriate. In reality however the NV P-4 had far less capable communication equipment: VHF Radio (unsecure): P-609; range 5 km (2.7 nm); 4 channels. HF Radio (unsecure): P-607; range 500 km (270 nm). Additionally introduced in summer 1966: UHF/VHF Radio (unsecure): P-108; range 20 km (10.8 nm).

DC: The current P-4 CWDB entries feature two DC racks (2x 4 DC). The P-4 had none! They had 4 smoke pots mounted on the stern (2 each side of the 14.5mm twin mount; lit in pairs; burn approximately 10 minutes).

Torpedoes: The P-4 carried two single 450mm TT, not the larger 533mm TT! The torpedoes carried were Soviet 45-36 AN Straight Runner (until summer 1966 North-Vietnam had received 72 45-36 from the Soviets). However, currently there seems to be no 450 mm TT mount in the CWDB and no Weapon entry for the 45-36 torpedo in the CWDB, so both needs to be added. Mount would be ROF 1/capacity 1 and NVN sources give these characteristics for the carried 450mm torpedoes: 45-36 AN; air steam; 450mm; speed 42 knots; range 5,000 meters (2.7 nm); variable set running depth 1 to 14 meters; gyro control 0° - shop set; 250 kg TNT (550 lbs); impact-inertia exploder; fuel type unknown; shell stainless steel; air tank heavy stainless steel.

Type 55A Shantou/Swatow

Crew: purely cosmetic, but complement might have been much larger than 17. NVN source said the crew was approximately 30 strong, with the following positions known: CO, XO, six man 37mm gun crew (2x 3), two 14.5mm gunners, 6-7 enginemen and an unknown number of 37mm ammo handlers (probably eight total - four for each 37mm mount).

Speed: Current platforms of this type seem to be much faster than they should be. Their current DB speeds are 5/35/45/50kts, while contemporary NVN sources attribute them with a designed maximum speed of only 28kts and economical speed of 15-18kts! Additionally there are supporting reports from OPLAN 34A-Missions indicating that “they” (“Nasty”-Type PC with 40 knots top speed) could easily outrun pursuing contacts which were later identified as “Swatow”-type patrol craft. On these occasions, the “Swatow” contacts were tracked at speeds of 20 to 25 kts.

Request for new CWDB platform – North-Vietnamese Aircraft:

An-2 Colt (rocket armed version):

new platform/loadout An-2: As North Vietnam used such birds a few times (amongst other things, they tried to interdict South Vietnamese/US coastal raiders), I request a North Vietnamese Version of the An-2 armed with two UB-16-57 rocket pods (16x S-5 57mm unguided rocket each) - or just this additional loadout option for the existing Soviet An-2 platform.

new weapon/warhead S-5 57mm Rocket: Currently there’s just the shaped charge variant S-5K in the DB, which probably wasn’t used by Vietnam (?). So maybe the base version S-5 with a 1.16 kg GP HE warhead could be added for the CWDB?

Some sources:
“NVN PT Boat Exploitation Team Report(s) July 1966”, available at the Virtual Vietnam Archive.
“Description of South Vietnamese Operations against North Vietnamese islands and bases during the period 30 July to 6 August 1964”, available at the Virtual Vietnam Archive

Thanks!

quote:

Skipjack

quote:

ORIGINAL: Broncepulido

My results on the Skate-class research some time ago. For me the most distictive point is an increment in speed after the reactor power increase probably on the earlier overhauls (from 6600shp (Conway's) or 7300 shp ("Cold War Submarines") S3W in SSN-578 and SSN-583 and the same reactor with different arrangement S4W in SSN-579 and SSN-584).
Skate-class submerged speed 12/1957-1962: 18 knots (this value is reflected in more "serious" books, but I think is the original speed value, it can reflect the 6600 shp power).
Skate-class submerged speed 1963-6/1989: 22 knots (value reflected for years on many books, or as "20+ knots", it can reflect the 7300 shp power).

Some sources:
Notes of autor Jim Christley"informed guesses" in the four page of Osprey's New Vanguard number 138 "US Nuclear Submarines - the fast attack", 2007: speed 15/18 (clearly previously to the reactor replacement), test depth 700 ft. Also with Mk14, Mk16 and Mk37 torpedoes originally (perhaps also Mk27, Mk35 and Mk45 ASTOR (1963-1976).
On Norman Friedman's "US Submarines from 1945", Naval Institute Press 1994: submarine data page 243, speed 15,5/18, test depth 700 ft (probably Christley get his data here).
6x533mm Mk56 bow tubes with 18 long torpedoes.
2x533mm Mk57 stern tubes (sometimes calles "countermeasures tubes") with 4 short torpedoes (as Mk37).
Original sonars: active SQS-4 Mod 1, passive BQR-2B (with BQS-4, added 1963?), later added mine-detection sonar BQS-8, also with SS-2 surface search radar (later BPS-12), torpedo Warner QXB-3 to be replaced with WLR-2 (very probably also DUUG-1 Velox, employed on all the US SSNs to Sturgeon-class inclusive), BLR-1, AS-371 and WLR-3 DF system (ESM), and BRA-34 radio mast (page 128).
On Norman Polmar "Cold War Submarines", Brassey's 2004: page 70, the same speed values of 15,5/18 knots and 700 ft deep.

On navsource.org http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08578.htm 23 knots surfaced and 18+ knots submerged!

About the speed increase is only my "informed guess", but I will persist on the trail ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

Can we please see the Skate class (SSN-578) for the CWDB please. Thanks

-C

quote:

ORIGINAL: .Sirius

Hi Skates should be in there

quote:

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

Can we please see the Skate class (SSN-578) for the CWDB please. Thanks

-C

quote:

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

quote:

ORIGINAL: .Sirius

Hi Skates should be in there

quote:

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

Can we please see the Skate class (SSN-578) for the CWDB please. Thanks

-C

In CWDB Build 471 there are six versions of SSN-571 Nautilus but no SSN-578 Skates that I could find.

quote:

Hi just checked the DB like you they were there originaly somethings happened somewhere, Ill re add them to the DB many thanks again for picking this up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

quote:

Hi just checked the DB like you they were there originaly somethings happened somewhere, Ill re add them to the DB many thanks again for picking this up.

Hey Paul,

If it's any help the Skate class is present in CWDB v400 but disappear in CWDB v402 and are missing in all subsequent versions.

-C

quote:

ORIGINAL: fool12342000

85mm D-44 should NOT be able to attack aircraft.

quote:

ORIGINAL: .Sirius

Yeah noticed that too, must have been sunk somewhere when I get the DB of Rag sometime today I will be updating the DB with all additions and changes in the CWDB thread

quote:

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

quote:

Hi just checked the DB like you they were there originaly somethings happened somewhere, Ill re add them to the DB many thanks again for picking this up.

Hey Paul,

If it's any help the Skate class is present in CWDB v400 but disappear in CWDB v402 and are missing in all subsequent versions.

-C

quote:

ORIGINAL: Broncepulido

quote:

Skipjack

About the Skipjack speeds (speeds and test deeps are still classified):
I did some research a few years ago.
The answer is very probably:
Skipjack-class speed 1959-1968: 33 knots.
Skipjack-class speed 1963-1991: 29 knots.
Some hints: with ever increasing displacement, the Skipjack, Tresher/Permit and Sturgeon have the same S5W nuclear power plant.
Some sources:
Notes of autor Jim Christley"informed guesses" in the four page of Osprey's New Vanguard number 138 "US Nuclear Submarines - the fast attack", 2007: speed 15/29 (clearly after the screw replacement), test depth 700 ft.
On Norman Friedman's "US Submarines from 1946", Naval Institute Press 1994: submarine data page 243, speed 15/29, test depth 700 ft (probably Christley get his data here).
On Norman Polmar "Cold War Submarines", Brassey's 2004: page 135 "She achieved just under 33 knots submerged with her original, five-bladed propeller, this was 15 knots faster than the previous Skate-class SSNs", page 136 "However,the Skipjack had minimal quieting features. A later change in propeller - to a seven-blade, slower turning propeller to reduce cavitation as well as shaft noise - reduced her speed" (I don't remember now how I get the 1961 date for screw change). Table on page 146: test depth 700 ft, speed 33 knots (with note about speed reduction after screw change).

I think my initial deduction (1961) of the propeller change from the old five-blades ones on the Skipjack-class boats in 1961 is derived of the in service date of January 1961 of the first Thresher-class boat, with seven-blade propeller. Now I see it probably was changed first as earlier date on the Skipjack 1962-1963 overhaul, and the last propeller changed was probably that of Sculpin on her 1968-1969 overhaul.

quote:

ORIGINAL: .Sirius

Hi Noted will update

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ogier

With the recent fiftieth anniversary of the Gulf of Tonkin incident and the already existing Command scenario in mind, I humbly request a mid-sixties version of the non FRAM-modified Allen M. Sumner class as an additional platform for the Command CWDB. They show marked differences compared to the 1953 non FRAM version currently available in the CWDB.

And as it is probably the most famous non FRAM Sumner (and a scenario already exists for it), I would propose to model the new DB entry after the 1964 USS Maddox (DD-731) -- United States (Navy), 1964-1972 (thereafter to China Taiwan as “Po Yang”).

In the current version of the Tonkin Gulf scenario (Miguel Molinas “Gulf of Tonkin incident”), the USS Maddox is represented by a FRAM II Allen M. Sumner class. But the Maddox never got a standard FRAM II refit. She rather received a more limited refit, which left her with a modernized sensor and weapon fit, but without a lot of the typical FRAM II characteristics (like air facilities). The final (?) refit was right before its fateful 1964 cruise and resulted in a configuration currently not covered by the existing DB entries.

So, as far as I could figure it out, the 1964-1972 Maddox characteristics would be something like this (compared to the existing DB entries):

General Data: like existing DB entries (Captain Ogier mentions 288 as war time complement, BuPers complement as 234 and 1964 WestPac manning level as 193, so one of these values could be substituted for crew number…)

Properties: no HIFR (like 1953 Sumner)

Air Facilities: none (like 1953 Sumner)

Sensors/EW:
Air Search: AN/SPS-40 (unlike FRAM II DB entry (15 FRAM II Sumners did have AN/SPS-40 though), unlike 1953 Sumner)
Surface Search: AN/SPS-10B (like FRAM II)
Forward (main) Director: Mk 37 GFCS with Mk 25 radar (Mk 25) (like 1953 Sumner)
Aft Director: AN/SPG-35 (Mk 56 GFCD) (like 1953 Sumner)
Sonar: AN/SQS-32A (unlike 1953 Sumner, unlike FRAM II (as far as I understand it, AN/SQS-32 is an upgrade (RDT capable) of the 14 kHz version (mod.4) of AN/SQS-4))
ESM: some sort of AN/WLR-1 ? (like FRAM II – but with just one AS-571/SLR antenna assembly???)
ECM: maybe AN/ULQ-6, can’t identify ECM on pictures though…
(Remark: no VDS)

Mounts:
2x Mk11 Hedgehog ASW Mortar - forward firing; left/right of bridge
3x 127mm/38 Mk32 Twin - 2x twin mount forward (superfiring), 1x twin mount aft
2x 76mm/50 Mk33 Twin without on mount AN/SPG-34 fc – 1x centerline aft, 1x on aft deck house, facing aft, offset to port (unlike FRAM II, unlike 1953 Sumner)
2x 324mm Mk32 TT Triple – 1x port, 1x starboard (like FRAM II)
1x Mk9 Depth Charge Rack - stern
1x T Mk 6 Fanfare (like FRAM II) - stern
(Remark: no 76mm/50 singles, no on mount radar directors, no depth Charge Projectors)

Magazines:
Mk44 [External Tubes] (like FRAM II)
Mk11 Hedgehog ASW Mortar (like FRAM II)
Signatures:
Like existing DB entries
Comms/Datalinks:
Like existing DB entries
Propulsion:
Like existing DB entries

Note: Configurations of non FRAM Sumners during the sixties vary quite considerably over time and between ships. So the above configuration is just one amongst a rather bewildering amount of possible sensor/weapon configurations. But for the most part it should be rather representative. One notable exception: Maddox might have been the only non FRAM Sumner with AN/SPS-40 (instead of AN/SPS-37).

Some sources:
Ogier: USS Maddox “July-August DESOTO Patrol…” dated 24 Aug.
Ogier: USS Maddox "Report of Action, Gulf of Tonkin, 2 August 1964" dated 24 Aug.
Amico, Pittenger: “A Brief History of Active Sonar”, Aquatic Mammals 2009
Hanyok: “Spartans in Darkness: American SIGINT and the Indochina War, 1945-1975”
Moďse: “Tonkin Gulf And the Escalation of the Vietnam War”
Various Jane’s Fighting Ships editions
Various photographs available online
Various trawls through the web

quote:

ORIGINAL: BASB

What the chance of some RAF WW2 Coastal Command a/c Sunderland or some others to search for German subs in WW2 scenarios. Please

quote:

ORIGINAL: Usili

Slight issue with the F-111E Aardvark loadout.

The CBU-71/B CB regular loadout only has eight CBU-71/B CBs, while the long range loadout has sixteen CBU-71/B CBs with the DECM pod, and both drop tanks. Noticed it when scrolling through the Aardvark loadouts for something I was thinking of.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rparr28922

We need to add some German Airplanes and Ships

quote:

ORIGINAL: spec111

I need WHOLE IJN in US designation system.