RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> After Action Reports >> RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/4/2019 5:19:54 PM

Mike Solli

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Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Obvert,

Can you check your kamikazes and see which frames carry the SAP or AP bomb load?

Will a torpedo bomber on kamikaze use the 250gp or the 250sap? If a normal torpedo bomber carries the gp, what would the Grace carry as a kamikaze?

I am guessing any bomb load 60kg and smaller uses a gp as in stock there is no SAP at those levels.

Is the switch to SAP or AP automatic for naval and kamikaze strikes, or is it somehow restricted by plane. I can't tell.

I know the 800kg is a hardcoded variable replacement for the torpedo on port strikes.

Is there a random chance there is no SAP available?

From Alfred's hints at kami "bomb loads" earlier I don't think it matters. I think now that kamis hit and have a standard damage by plane type. So the kati-designed planes might have a higher damage than earlier DBs, and any 2E bomber has the same damage base to be modified by rolls.

I don't think kamis get granular with bomb size let alone bomb type.

One indication of this would be some players mentioning how good their recon Judys are as kamis. No bomb, but still a boom.

A little while back, there was a discussion on Kamikazes. Alfred chimed in, and basically, there are 4 important stats:

Pilot Quality
Air Speed
Maneuverability
Durability

Nothing about bombs. That's not to say they don't help, but they're not one of the four important factors. I've come to the conclusion that I'll use everything available in the inventory and focus on Pilot Quality. My current goal is 40+ experience and 60+ LowN.

Edit: It was in my AAR several pages back, if you're interested. Also, I chose 40+/60+ because it was easy to attain.

< Message edited by Mike Solli -- 2/4/2019 5:25:10 PM >

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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/4/2019 5:41:26 PM

Mike Solli

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Here's the post:

A good kamikaze plane is a plane which can evade Allied CAP and flak.

The theoretical amount of damage which a kamikaze plane can inflict is totally beyond the capacity of the player to determine. What the player should focus on is getting a hit from his kamikaze plane. What follows from a kamikaze hit is a narrow range of inputs into the algorithm.

To get the individual kamikaze plane through focus on:

pilot quality
airspeed
manoeuvrability
durability

To maximise the effectiveness of the attack, good "ablative armour" in the form of good and plentiful escorts plus intelligent approach vectors, are essential.

Alfred

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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/4/2019 7:26:33 PM

Lowpe

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Mike,

I did read those when they came out, but I was primarily interested in figuring out which IJ planes carry SAP or AP bombs when on naval strike missions -- and the only where they show up in the plane detail screen when the unit is on a kamikaze strike. They don't show up on normal units when on naval strike.

I do know that the Lilly DB uses SAP bombs to great effect. So it is not an Army Navy thing.

So, I am left wondering if the SAP or GP bomb choice is much like the 800kg bomb choice when TB strike naval ports. I.E. hard coded. Or is it based on plane model? Or is it variable based on supply, hq, leadership, dl,? I don't think it is runway size since the I have used the Lilly IIb out of size 2 runways and it used the SAP.

So, then in addition and to make it worthwhile for this particular AAR and the readers, I got to thinking if a kamikaze would be better off with a SAP loadout? Because some kamikaze planes have the SAP or AP and some do not...at least according to the plane detail sheet and my particular use of kamikazes four years ago.

I think you should spend the time now to train up your first batch of kamikazes with high defense and get experience as high as possible too. You can only create a new kamikaze unit with low experience pilots, but then you can transfer in the high experience guys once created. On warships Allied flak in 44+ is just an absolute killer, and the high defense means more planes might get thru.

If you start the game with a few IDA squadrons cranking out excellent kamikaze pilots then 70 LowNav, 70 defense is doable to start. Let that first taste of the divine wind be something memorable.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 2/4/2019 7:30:25 PM >

(in reply to Mike Solli)

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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/4/2019 8:04:33 PM

Mike Solli

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Interesting comments, Lowpe. I have absolutely no experience with Kamikazes. Never even seen one in the game (yet), but that day is coming. High LowN and Def in an armored, high durability bomber might do some damage.

Sorry for the hijack, obvert.

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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/4/2019 8:38:16 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Interesting comments, Lowpe. I have absolutely no experience with Kamikazes. Never even seen one in the game (yet), but that day is coming. High LowN and Def in an armored, high durability bomber might do some damage.

Sorry for the hijack, obvert.

Hijack?

You guys are talking though my dilemmas here! How to get through the big blue blanket and the porcupine flak wall to hit a ship?

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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/4/2019 10:05:22 PM

adarbrauner

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Hi Obvert I'm thrilled by the Norms strike. No losses, no intercept?

Altitude low, late detection (but 40 miles detection isn't THAT low either...).

But no intercept at all?!

And Why only 50 Hellcats as CAP?

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Post #: 2766

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/5/2019 7:33:55 AM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

Hi Obvert I'm thrilled by the Norms strike. No losses, no intercept?

Altitude low, late detection (but 40 miles detection isn't THAT low either...).

But no intercept at all?!

And Why only 50 Hellcats as CAP?

Probably only a few CVE in this part of the mob of ships and possibly only a few groups on extended range CAP. So far Canoe has used mostly very close CAP coverage, so it's sometimes possible to bleed the edges.

_____________________________

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Post #: 2767

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/5/2019 12:32:57 PM

adarbrauner

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Well I guess the small package Played a role as well in a very delayed or failed detection. BUT still the report says (well i should not see that as the attacking side, but this is another issue) 40 miles, which isn't a lot, but enough to try at least to intercept the Norms?

< Message edited by adarbrauner -- 2/5/2019 12:34:39 PM >

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Post #: 2768

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/5/2019 1:42:00 PM

obvert

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April 28, 1945

Some night strikes. The Kates make a contact but of course it's another small fry.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR April 28, 1945
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Night Air attack on TF, near Chichi-jima at 114,73

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 10 NM, estimated altitude 4,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
LCI(R)-643
LCI(G)-450
LCI(G)-439, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 1000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on TF, near Chichi-jima at 115,73

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 36 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-67-Ia (T) Peggy x 7

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-67-Ia (T) Peggy: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
LSM-50
LSM-377

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x Ki-67-Ia (T) Peggy launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on TF, near Chichi-jima at 115,73

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 31 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-67-Ia (T) Peggy x 8

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-67-Ia (T) Peggy: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
LSM-55
LSM-50

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x Ki-67-Ia (T) Peggy launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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Post #: 2769

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/5/2019 1:55:50 PM

Lowpe

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Iwo Jima??

I think the Allies need to be much closer, but heck what do I know. I can't fathom Korea or Formosa or Luzon doesn't leave much else, does it?

How the Allies could take those bases north of Honshu, and not be bombing your fighter, nf and engine production as a priority is beyond me anyhow.

Keep plinking. Use those Norms on night naval attack at 1K...lots of bombs. The torpedo bombers might go in higher to avoid that first wall of flak.

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2770

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/6/2019 3:29:55 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Iwo Jima??

I think the Allies need to be much closer, but heck what do I know. I can't fathom Korea or Formosa or Luzon doesn't leave much else, does it?

How the Allies could take those bases north of Honshu, and not be bombing your fighter, nf and engine production as a priority is beyond me anyhow.

Keep plinking. Use those Norms on night naval attack at 1K...lots of bombs. The torpedo bombers might go in higher to avoid that first wall of flak.

I had to fly in a few more troops to make sure the Bonins were ready, but I was pretty convinced he wouldn't go there. Now, it's interesting there will be so many viable bases to strike at any Allied movement through here in future. He's going deep, and although it'll probably work, can I pick off enough VPs to work for me too?

My new odds:

Ryukyus/Amami Oshima - 2:1 (as a strategic stop for LOC and sweeping Home Islands)
Korea/Manchuria Western Coast - 3:1 (as major destination with a big troop concentration)
NE China Coastline 5:1 (Why not? It's impossible to defend)
Formosa - 4:1
Indochina - 5:1 (Specifically Hue & Vinh. Far from the Home Islands, but consistently reconned and he might think he can trap the Burma Army there)
PI - 8:1 (Easy pickings, but kind of a point grab with little else to offer at this point)
Kyushu - 20:1 (Odds going down here).

_____________________________

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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/6/2019 4:58:23 PM

Lowpe

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Kamikaze Findings:

Tested some kamikaze usage in Downfall, head to head.

1. Some Kamikaze planes carry SAP or AP bomb loads. They do superior damage to the GP bombs.

2. I have found the following planes on Kamikaze to carry SAP or AP bombs: Peggy(t), Nell, Betty, Frances, Grace, Jill, Kate.

3. I have not found a plane that carries the 800 AP on Kamikaze attacks. So, Val, Judy, are best left as pure divebombers to use the SAP.

4. on the plane detail screen for the dedicated kamikazes (ex. toka) it shows them carrying the AP, but in practice they don't and use GP instead. Same with the Zero FB models.

5. To get the OHKA missile to fly all of the time, make the Betty2E a kamikaze unit and it will launch as long as there is supply in the pools.

6. I cannot find any plane that carries the 500kg SAP.

7. Against non warships, all planes are valid kamikazes. But against armored warships you need penetration. A Helen carrying 4 gp 250kg bombs does on average 4 system points to a 21 knot ww1 American battleship. A Kate carrying two 250kg SAP did 13 system damage.

So some guidelines: the Grace and Jill are probably the best singe engine non dedicated kamikaze available carrying 2 SAP bombs; an armored mb like the Peggy T, Betty, Frances probably make the best 2E kamikaze. The dedicated kamikaze carrying the 800kg GP is strong enough to make it worthwhile.

ran out of time...more later. cheers.

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2772

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/6/2019 5:51:58 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Kamikaze Findings:

Tested some kamikaze usage in Downfall, head to head.

1. Some Kamikaze planes carry SAP or AP bomb loads. They do superior damage to the GP bombs.

2. I have found the following planes on Kamikaze to carry SAP or AP bombs: Peggy(t), Nell, Betty, Frances, Grace, Jill, Kate.

3. I have not found a plane that carries the 800 AP on Kamikaze attacks. So, Val, Judy, are best left as pure divebombers to use the SAP.

4. on the plane detail screen for the dedicated kamikazes (ex. toka) it shows them carrying the AP, but in practice they don't and use GP instead. Same with the Zero FB models.

5. To get the OHKA missile to fly all of the time, make the Betty2E a kamikaze unit and it will launch as long as there is supply in the pools.

6. I cannot find any plane that carries the 500kg SAP.

7. Against non warships, all planes are valid kamikazes. But against armored warships you need penetration. A Helen carrying 4 gp 250kg bombs does on average 4 system points to a 21 knot ww1 American battleship. A Kate carrying two 250kg SAP did 13 system damage.

So some guidelines: the Grace and Jill are probably the best singe engine non dedicated kamikaze available carrying 2 SAP bombs; an armored mb like the Peggy T, Betty, Frances probably make the best 2E kamikaze. The dedicated kamikaze carrying the 800kg GP is strong enough to make it worthwhile.

ran out of time...more later. cheers.

Nice findings! That sums up how I have felt from usage in general, except on the Toka. I find the short range, very low durability and lack of armour prohibitive. Although it's certainly better than the bi-plane trainers, so if you plan to use the big late training groups fro kamis, those make a lot of sense. I didn't choose to make them this game as I wanted to try the Patsy. (Does it carry AP?). Now I'm too short on Ha-43 engines to make the Patsy, so I'll have to see how that works in a few months assuming I still have factories.

I would be most interested in how kamis do against flattops though. Any findings there?

_____________________________

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Post #: 2773

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/6/2019 6:02:00 PM

obvert

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April 28, 1945

Also on the 28th the Allies went big in strat bombing two bases. Neither was a completely comfortable experience for them, but one was a disaster.

At night the B-29B made it's first appearance over Hammatsu. A lot of my NF from various nearby bases vectored in to take a look. On the night they registered only a few scattered manpower hits and no damage, losing about 25-30 airframes.

The other strike was a daylight raid at Iwaki. Fighter losses were about 1:1 and heavy for both sides. The B-29s made it through though to hit resources.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR April 28, 1945
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Night Air attack on Hamamatsu , at 111,61

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 75 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 22 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J1N1-Sa Irving x 28
P1Y2-S Frances x 12
Ki-45 KAId Nick x 20
Ki-46-III KAI Dinah x 6

Allied aircraft
B-29B Superfort x 28

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-29B Superfort: 12 damaged
B-29B Superfort: 1 destroyed by flak

Manpower hits 3
Fires 795

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 12000 feet
City Attack: 36 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Hamamatsu , at 111,61

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 11 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J1N1-Sa Irving x 24
P1Y2-S Frances x 9
Ki-45 KAId Nick x 16
Ki-46-III KAI Dinah x 6

Allied aircraft
B-29B Superfort x 8

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-29B Superfort: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged
B-29B Superfort: 1 destroyed by flak

Manpower hits 1
Fires 2900

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 12000 feet
City Attack: 36 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Hamamatsu , at 111,61

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 42 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J1N1-Sa Irving x 23
P1Y2-S Frances x 7
Ki-45 KAId Nick x 16
Ki-46-III KAI Dinah x 6

Allied aircraft
B-29B Superfort x 5

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-29B Superfort: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 12000 feet
City Attack: 36 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Hamamatsu , at 111,61

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 15 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J1N1-Sa Irving x 18
P1Y2-S Frances x 6
Ki-45 KAId Nick x 13
Ki-46-III KAI Dinah x 3

Allied aircraft
B-29B Superfort x 7

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-29B Superfort: 5 damaged
B-29B Superfort: 1 destroyed by flak

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 12000 feet
City Attack: 36 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Hamamatsu , at 111,61

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 29 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J1N1-Sa Irving x 17
P1Y2-S Frances x 3
Ki-45 KAId Nick x 12
Ki-46-III KAI Dinah x 3

Allied aircraft
B-29B Superfort x 6

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-29B Superfort: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 12000 feet
City Attack: 36 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kushiro , at 123,53

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 15 NM, estimated altitude 42,370 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K5-J George x 33

Allied aircraft
F6F-5 Hellcat x 32

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-5 Hellcat: 12 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x N1K5-J George sweeping at 39370 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Iwaki , at 116,59

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 11 NM, estimated altitude 22,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 43
Ki-84r Frank x 75
Ki-100-II Tony x 49
Ki-102b Randy x 16

Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 21

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 4 destroyed
Ki-84r Frank: 2 destroyed
Ki-100-II Tony: 2 destroyed
Ki-102b Randy: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1D Corsair: 7 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Iwaki , at 116,59

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 41 NM, estimated altitude 21,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 29
Ki-84r Frank x 65
Ki-100-II Tony x 40
Ki-102b Randy x 12

Allied aircraft
P-51D Mustang x 14

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 1 destroyed
Ki-84r Frank: 2 destroyed
Ki-102b Randy: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-51D Mustang: 2 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Iwaki , at 116,59

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 26 NM, estimated altitude 22,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 14
Ki-84r Frank x 40
Ki-100-II Tony x 19
Ki-102b Randy x 6

Allied aircraft
P-51D Mustang x 22

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 2 destroyed
Ki-84r Frank: 1 destroyed
Ki-100-II Tony: 1 destroyed
Ki-102b Randy: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-51D Mustang: 4 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
14 x P-51D Mustang sweeping at 20000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Iwaki , at 116,59

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 75 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 23 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-84r Frank x 8
Ki-100-II Tony x 7
Ki-102b Randy x 1

Allied aircraft
B-29-25 Superfort x 47
P-38L Lightning x 25

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-84r Frank: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-25 Superfort: 14 damaged
B-29-25 Superfort: 1 destroyed by flak
P-38L Lightning: 1 destroyed

Resources hits 76

Aircraft Attacking:
14 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 9000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Truk , at 112,108

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid spotted at 19 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-24D Liberator x 9
B-24D1 Liberator x 2

Allied aircraft losses
B-24D Liberator: 4 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 2 destroyed by flak

Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 11000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2774

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/6/2019 7:45:37 PM

adarbrauner

Posts: 1496
Joined: 11/3/2016
From: Zichron Yaaqov, Israel; Before, Treviso, Italy
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Kamikaze Findings:

Tested some kamikaze usage in Downfall, head to head.

1. Some Kamikaze planes carry SAP or AP bomb loads. They do superior damage to the GP bombs.

2. I have found the following planes on Kamikaze to carry SAP or AP bombs: Peggy(t), Nell, Betty, Frances, Grace, Jill, Kate.

3. I have not found a plane that carries the 800 AP on Kamikaze attacks. So, Val, Judy, are best left as pure divebombers to use the SAP.

4. on the plane detail screen for the dedicated kamikazes (ex. toka) it shows them carrying the AP, but in practice they don't and use GP instead. Same with the Zero FB models.

5. To get the OHKA missile to fly all of the time, make the Betty2E a kamikaze unit and it will launch as long as there is supply in the pools.

6. I cannot find any plane that carries the 500kg SAP.

7. Against non warships, all planes are valid kamikazes. But against armored warships you need penetration. A Helen carrying 4 gp 250kg bombs does on average 4 system points to a 21 knot ww1 American battleship. A Kate carrying two 250kg SAP did 13 system damage.

So some guidelines: the Grace and Jill are probably the best singe engine non dedicated kamikaze available carrying 2 SAP bombs; an armored mb like the Peggy T, Betty, Frances probably make the best 2E kamikaze. The dedicated kamikaze carrying the 800kg GP is strong enough to make it worthwhile.

ran out of time...more later. cheers.

You should really open a thread on the war room on this?

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 2775

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/6/2019 7:55:23 PM

Mike Solli

Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Kamikaze Findings:

Tested some kamikaze usage in Downfall, head to head.

3. I have not found a plane that carries the 800 AP on Kamikaze attacks. So, Val, Judy, are best left as pure divebombers to use the SAP.

6. I cannot find any plane that carries the 500kg SAP.

What about the D4Y4 Judy (or any other model of Judy at normal range for #6)?

_____________________________

Created by the amazing Dixie

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 2776

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/6/2019 8:39:57 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
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From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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April 29, 1945

Something must have held up the mob around the Bonins as very little progress is made today for the Allies. Or else they're changing tack and going in. There are some vulnerable bases around South of Tokyo too that I have to watch out for him rushing in to invade.

A lot of troops have now made it to Kyushu. I'll beef up Moppo by sea and send other troops in strat mode to the rail lines to move on. Some small units are moving to cover every open non-base hex on the Korean peninsula and up to around Port Arthur. If he does come that way I'll try to assess which base is targeted and then rail in a pile of troops to that one and nearby bases a day or two before landing. Gunzan though will get a stack immediately.

I think he needs a port to replenish BB main guns, right? That can't be done by AKE on the open water. Right?

I'm now wondering whether Port Arthur might be high on his list. A level 9 port with repair yard and isolated. Of course Shanghai would be great for him too, and landing at nearby bases wouldn't be much of a challenge. Of course up river is completely vulnerable. So many kind of cool options I've not seen anyone try here. Very curious now.

My Burma army is making good time and the chasing Allies pose no threat immediately. Everything will rail out of Bangkok immediately.

Subs have another good day for the Allies.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR April 29, 1945
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sub attack near Cam Ranh Bay at 66,75

Japanese Ships
E Saga
TK Toa Maru
TK Rikko Maru
TK Gen'yo Maru
E Aotaka
E Hatsutaka

Allied Ships
SS Harder, hits 2

SS Harder launches 6 torpedoes at E Saga

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Busuanga at 76,81

Japanese Ships
xAK Hokko Maru, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
xAK Ada Maru
xAK Tonegawa Maru
PB Hinode Maru #20

Allied Ships
SS Haddo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Balabac at 68,82

Japanese Ships
AK Hokuroku Maru, Torpedo hits 2, heavy damage
AK Nankai Maru
xAP Palau Maru
xAP Kamo Maru
E Nasami

Allied Ships
SS Toro

SS Toro launches 6 torpedoes at AK Hokuroku Maru
Toro diving deep ....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine attack near Busuanga at 76,81

Japanese Ships
xAK Hokko Maru, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
SS Haddo

xAK Hokko Maru is sighted by SS Haddo
Massive explosion on xAK Hokko Maru
SS Haddo launches 6 torpedoes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Truk , at 112,108

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 17 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
B-24D Liberator x 8
B-24D1 Liberator x 2

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-24D Liberator: 5 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 1 destroyed by flak
B-24D1 Liberator: 1 damaged

Airbase hits 1
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 7

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 11000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All kinds of bases on the Chinese coastline all the way down to Foochow being reconned.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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Post #: 2777

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/6/2019 9:29:46 PM

adarbrauner

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Aren't you taking advantage of the situation and sweeping in the North?

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Post #: 2778

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/6/2019 10:06:30 PM

Lowpe

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Joined: 2/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Kamikaze Findings:

Tested some kamikaze usage in Downfall, head to head.

3. I have not found a plane that carries the 800 AP on Kamikaze attacks. So, Val, Judy, are best left as pure divebombers to use the SAP.

6. I cannot find any plane that carries the 500kg SAP.

What about the D4Y4 Judy (or any other model of Judy at normal range for #6)?

Nope, only carries the gp, or the chance of carrying the AP is quite small or I haven't met the triggers (hard to see that, big runway, air hq, plentiful supplies, torpedoes present, etc.).

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Post #: 2779

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/6/2019 10:07:17 PM

Lowpe

Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Kamikaze Findings:

Tested some kamikaze usage in Downfall, head to head.

1. Some Kamikaze planes carry SAP or AP bomb loads. They do superior damage to the GP bombs.

2. I have found the following planes on Kamikaze to carry SAP or AP bombs: Peggy(t), Nell, Betty, Frances, Grace, Jill, Kate.

3. I have not found a plane that carries the 800 AP on Kamikaze attacks. So, Val, Judy, are best left as pure divebombers to use the SAP.

4. on the plane detail screen for the dedicated kamikazes (ex. toka) it shows them carrying the AP, but in practice they don't and use GP instead. Same with the Zero FB models.

5. To get the OHKA missile to fly all of the time, make the Betty2E a kamikaze unit and it will launch as long as there is supply in the pools.

6. I cannot find any plane that carries the 500kg SAP.

7. Against non warships, all planes are valid kamikazes. But against armored warships you need penetration. A Helen carrying 4 gp 250kg bombs does on average 4 system points to a 21 knot ww1 American battleship. A Kate carrying two 250kg SAP did 13 system damage.

So some guidelines: the Grace and Jill are probably the best singe engine non dedicated kamikaze available carrying 2 SAP bombs; an armored mb like the Peggy T, Betty, Frances probably make the best 2E kamikaze. The dedicated kamikaze carrying the 800kg GP is strong enough to make it worthwhile.

ran out of time...more later. cheers.

You should really open a thread on the war room on this?

Findings aren't ready for prime time yet, but among friends here it is ok.

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Post #: 2780

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/6/2019 10:10:21 PM

Lowpe

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Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline

More Kamikaze findings:

Recons do work very well, especially the Dinah III. At hitting the target. Against a 21knot BB they do a little bit more damage than the Helens despite not having a bomb load.

Beginning to think plane max speed plays a role in damage.

Will look at hitting fleet carriers next, per your wish, and as time allows.

No idea on Patsy, but will find out. My guess is GP.

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 2781

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/6/2019 11:54:07 PM

PaxMondo

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Joined: 6/6/2008
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Very interesting, pretty close to my old testing.

Somewhere the devs said that the GP/AP bomb choice was based upon target that the group thinks it is going to hit. So, CL and up in the target and high DL was the rule I found. Since the data is at the device level, not the plane level not sure that there is any difference on model. I couldn't find any in my testing, but there is clearly a lot of random due to the "perceived" target at time of launch. Meaning fairly frequently the group chose the wrong bomb type, or better to say it looked like GP was the default and AP needed the logic to trigger the switch and that trigger didn't work ~30% of the time when it should have. I did like 50 runs, so that ~30% has a fairly wide range on it � maybe 20%?

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Pax

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Post #: 2782

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/7/2019 9:09:48 AM

obvert

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Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

Aren't you taking advantage of the situation and sweeping in the North?

Good question. There are about 1,200 fighters at Shikuka. I could probably get 1:1 there with the Ki-83 if (and it's a big if lately as I found out recently) he doesn't use the P-47N and P-51D up high on CAP. When he's only got P-38s, Corsairs and Hellcats with the junk from 43 down below it's great.

I lost about 20 good 80exp IJAAF pilots over Kushiro in the recent sweeps there against only 250 planes in hex, so I do have to be a bit careful.

I did just sweep Kushiro again when it had only about 40 Hellcats, and that worked very well. About 25 Hellcats for 2 Georges lost. So when he does put CAP up over a base in range other than Shikuka I'll look to exploit it.

(From the 28th CR)
Morning Air attack on Kushiro , at 123,53

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 15 NM, estimated altitude 42,370 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K5-J George x 33

Allied aircraft
F6F-5 Hellcat x 32

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-5 Hellcat: 12 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x N1K5-J George sweeping at 39370 feet

< Message edited by obvert -- 2/7/2019 9:10:27 AM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 2783

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/7/2019 9:16:38 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

More Kamikaze findings:

Recons do work very well, especially the Dinah III. At hitting the target. Against a 21knot BB they do a little bit more damage than the Helens despite not having a bomb load.

Beginning to think plane max speed plays a role in damage.

Will look at hitting fleet carriers next, per your wish, and as time allows.

No idea on Patsy, but will find out. My guess is GP.

If you do try something else maybe try the little crap Willows and Sonias too. It'd definitely test theories about plane speed being a factor and if durability matters as much as we think it does. Hard to isolate factors ( just like with CAP and radar and speed and manoeuvre and gun type for CAP vs sweeps).

Oh, and what about fighters? I've got a lot of Oscars I'd like to put to good use soon. Everything with armor should be okay, right? Faster than most bombers, armoured, decent bomb load and range.

For ships, it would be fun to see the differences in how many kamis + extra events (ammo storage or fuel explosions, etc) most often will knock a CV, CVL and CVE out of action. My experience would say it would take;

CV - 3 kami hits or two kami hits + ammo/fuel explosions
CVL - 2 kami hits or one kami hit + ammo/fuel explosions
CVE - 1-2 kami hits

< Message edited by obvert -- 2/7/2019 9:31:36 AM >

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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Post #: 2784

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/7/2019 9:23:10 AM

Mike Solli

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Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
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The only caution I would have is to not make too many fighter units Kamikazes. You still need fighters.

Once a unit is expended as a Kamikaze, is it still there with few (or no) planes or does it disband to come back later?

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Post #: 2785

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/7/2019 9:35:44 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

The only caution I would have is to not make too many fighter units Kamikazes. You still need fighters.

Once a unit is expended as a Kamikaze, is it still there with few (or no) planes or does it disband to come back later?

I agree. I have been changing selected training groups to kamis primarily because they can then fly CAP (and train to higher levels by flying a high percentage CAP).

So the 10 plane 30 pilots fighter groups will mostly become kami units to add to CAP coverage and use Ki-100, Oscar III/IV and Frank Ia airframes for IJAAF and N1K2, J2M2/3 and A6M8 for IJNAF.

The larger training units with 27 planes might also be converted, but I'l have o see how many pilots I have after the new trainees are ready. I'm still using a lot of FP units to train fighter pilots and they take significantly longer than the dedicated training groups. Those would also be good targets for kami conversions, flying the Jake, but of course that is a poor kami plane. I just have a lot of them.

Soon I also lose about 250 IJAAF fighter planes, which is crap. So I have to make up for that with kami groups flying CAP and moving stuff around a lot.

< Message edited by obvert -- 2/7/2019 9:40:34 AM >

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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Post #: 2786

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/7/2019 9:39:10 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Very interesting, pretty close to my old testing.

Somewhere the devs said that the GP/AP bomb choice was based upon target that the group thinks it is going to hit. So, CL and up in the target and high DL was the rule I found. Since the data is at the device level, not the plane level not sure that there is any difference on model. I couldn't find any in my testing, but there is clearly a lot of random due to the "perceived" target at time of launch. Meaning fairly frequently the group chose the wrong bomb type, or better to say it looked like GP was the default and AP needed the logic to trigger the switch and that trigger didn't work ~30% of the time when it should have. I did like 50 runs, so that ~30% has a fairly wide range on it � maybe 20%?

Why would a GP bomb ever be better for a kami or naval strike? What is the logic there?

Does a GP bomb work more effectively on a tanker or troop carrier than an AP/SAP? It may start fires I guess, but not have as high a chance to sink the ships outright.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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Post #: 2787

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/7/2019 9:56:04 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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April 30, 1945

Allied sub advances continue. The Lagarto targets a TF near Manado twice and pays for it's persistence in the end, but does take an xAK down with her.

Frances target the Allies at night with no luck. I think I accidentally kept them on bomb loads and they went in from 8k with little chance.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR April 30, 1945
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sub attack near Naha at 91,74

Japanese Ships
PB Kiso Maru, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
SC Ch 39
TK Oita Maru
TK Koho Maru
TK Syoyo Maru
TK San Luis Maru
TK Ogura Maru #2
TK Kiyo Maru
PB Tokati Maru
PB Teimei Maru

Allied Ships
SS Plaice

SS Plaice launches 6 torpedoes at PB Kiso Maru

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Iba at 73,72

Japanese Ships
DD Kuwa
CL Sendai
DD Ume
DD Numakaze
DD Tachikaze
DD Hatakaze
DD Matsukaze

Allied Ships
SS Tigrone, hits 4

SS Tigrone launches 6 torpedoes at DD Kuwa

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Manado at 76,101

Japanese Ships
xAKL Nanko Maru
xAKL Matsutan Maru
xAKL Chosen Maru
xAKL Bokuei Maru
xAKL Gyokurei Maru
xAKL Totai Maru
xAKL Keizan Maru
E No.68

Allied Ships
SS Lagarto

Captain of SS Lagarto elects not to launch torpedoes at this target

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Naha at 91,74

Japanese Ships
PB Kiso Maru, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
PB Tokati Maru

Allied Ships
SS Plaice

SS Plaice launches 6 torpedoes at PB Kiso Maru
Plaice diving deep ....
PB Tokati Maru attacking submerged sub ....
PB Tokati Maru is out of ASW ammo
PB Tokati Maru fails to find sub, continues to search...
Escort abandons search for sub

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Manado at 76,101

Japanese Ships
xAK France Maru, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
xAKL Matsutan Maru
xAKL Chosen Maru
xAKL Bokuei Maru
xAKL Gyokurei Maru
xAKL Totai Maru
xAKL Keizan Maru
E No.68

Allied Ships
SS Lagarto, hits 27, heavy damage

SS Lagarto launches 6 torpedoes at xAK France Maru
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Allied fleet looks to be a little strung out. I'll set four groups to fly tomorrow from nearby bases. Two from the little islands south of Yokohama. One on Chichi and another on Iwo Jima. These will be fast DBs with a single A6M5 escort group from each base, all size two but with good supplies. Fingers crossed it's not a 200 plane VP hit for nothing.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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Post #: 2788

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/7/2019 1:00:07 PM

Lowpe

Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

More Kamikaze findings:

Recons do work very well, especially the Dinah III. At hitting the target. Against a 21knot BB they do a little bit more damage than the Helens despite not having a bomb load.

Beginning to think plane max speed plays a role in damage.

Will look at hitting fleet carriers next, per your wish, and as time allows.

No idea on Patsy, but will find out. My guess is GP.

If you do try something else maybe try the little crap Willows and Sonias too. It'd definitely test theories about plane speed being a factor and if durability matters as much as we think it does. Hard to isolate factors ( just like with CAP and radar and speed and manoeuvre and gun type for CAP vs sweeps).

Oh, and what about fighters? I've got a lot of Oscars I'd like to put to good use soon. Everything with armor should be okay, right? Faster than most bombers, armoured, decent bomb load and range.

For ships, it would be fun to see the differences in how many kamis + extra events (ammo storage or fuel explosions, etc) most often will knock a CV, CVL and CVE out of action. My experience would say it would take;

CV - 3 kami hits or two kami hits + ammo/fuel explosions
CVL - 2 kami hits or one kami hit + ammo/fuel explosions
CVE - 1-2 kami hits

Generally speaking I am not up to watching combat replay during these kinds of tests. Too time consuming.

Fighters I have tested, including Oscar, carry GP bombs as do the Fighter Bombers. I will test them to see what kind of damage they do against an Essex. My guess is for CA/BB/CV you need penetration and fighters won't give you that.

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2789

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 2/7/2019 1:03:44 PM

Lowpe

Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

The only caution I would have is to not make too many fighter units Kamikazes. You still need fighters.

Once a unit is expended as a Kamikaze, is it still there with few (or no) planes or does it disband to come back later?

Kamikaze units can still fly CAP, but you simply cannot train in Escort or Sweep. I have found no evidence kamikaze fighters ram bombers at a higher percentage than normal fighters.

After making a kamikaze run, even if all planes are lost, the squadron is still present ready to be resupplied with fresh planes. You can put 10% of a kamikaze squadron on search too, if you would like to. Do searching kamikaze planes attack spotted ships? That I don't know.

(in reply to Mike Solli)

Post #: 2790

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