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RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever played?

 
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RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever ... - 3/16/2021 10:23:02 AM   
Ridcully70

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 1/26/2007
Status: offline 		Phase Line Smash, a solitaire game of the 1991 Gulf War. The rules for the AI are longer than the rules for the player. I gave up after a few attempts when I realized that every game was going to play out very similarly. All that rulebook flipping for an unrewarding and samey experience. I switched to more streamlined games after that.


I read a quote from Frank Chadwick- "I believe complicated games remain popular because they admired rather than played, and when played are usually played solitaire"



(in reply to Perturabo)
Post #: 31
RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever ... - 3/16/2021 10:37:24 AM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 1380
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ridcully70
I read a quote from Frank Chadwick- "I believe complicated games remain popular because they admired rather than played, and when played are usually played solitaire"


That man was a genius.

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(in reply to Ridcully70)
Post #: 32
RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever ... - 3/16/2021 11:13:03 AM   
Zovs


Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs
[8.55] Fade-Back Deceleration
As indicated in the rules for Diving (10.4), an aircraft that pulls out of a dive has its Movement Allowance reduced to its Throttle Setting immediately, and does not undergo "Creep Deceleration" in the same way that aircraft pulling out of climbs undergo Creeping acceleration. However, an aircraft that pulls out of a dive may, on the turn that it enters Level Flight execute fade-back deceleration; this means that, for this Game-Turn only, the aircraft's Movement Allowance is only decreased by one point, rather than to the aircraft's Throttle Setting. On the next Game-Turn, the aircraft must decrease its Movement Allowance to its Throttle Setting; fade-back deceleration may only be executed on the Game-Turn that an aircraft pulls out of a dive.



I'll pass!

At least they are using the full terminology. The average paragraph in ASL says:

"If your CFV moves using HW movement after BUF from a COOT HS, then..."

Somehow ASLers consider this "a feature".


LOL, yeah the good old FFMO and FFNAM with the dreaded DRM that is why we AM our MMC and dm our HMG/MMG if we are not AM and using DT with a SMC out of LOS of KEU even if we get CX its much better then a 1MC or worse a KIA with RS not going your way.

Here is a nifty one (sounds more complex then it is, sort of:

From the C1. OB Art PA:

Is SR or FFE:2 on board?
Yes -> Go to the SR or FFE:2 column.
No -> Chit draw
Chit draw:
Red -> No Access
Black -> Is non-NOBA FFE:C on Board?
Yes -> Go to FFE:C column
No -> Remove an SR or FFE:C. Place AR.
Does Observer have LOS to a Location in AR hex?
No -> Access Lost. Remove AR.
Yes -> If there are enemy units in or adjacent to the AR hex, are all of them unknown to the Observer?
Yes -> Extra Chit Draw
Extra Chit Draw
Red -> access Lost. Remove AR.
Black -> Is AR in a Pre-Registered hex of its Battery (or directed by Shipboard Observer) and you wish to place FFE:1?
etc..

And lets not forgot that HD NA for AEC, I always forgot that one.

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(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 33
RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever ... - 3/17/2021 3:39:50 PM   
Rebel Yell


Posts: 470
Joined: 6/21/2003
From: The Woodlands, TX USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69



I always suspected that J.D. Webster wrote his "Air Superiority" rules by looking at these games as an example of what not to do.


100% agree. As mind numbingly bad as SPI's Air War rules were, Air Superiority was quite playable and I enjoyed it for many years.


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(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 34
RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever ... - 3/17/2021 4:08:46 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs


quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs
[8.55] Fade-Back Deceleration
As indicated in the rules for Diving (10.4), an aircraft that pulls out of a dive has its Movement Allowance reduced to its Throttle Setting immediately, and does not undergo "Creep Deceleration" in the same way that aircraft pulling out of climbs undergo Creeping acceleration. However, an aircraft that pulls out of a dive may, on the turn that it enters Level Flight execute fade-back deceleration; this means that, for this Game-Turn only, the aircraft's Movement Allowance is only decreased by one point, rather than to the aircraft's Throttle Setting. On the next Game-Turn, the aircraft must decrease its Movement Allowance to its Throttle Setting; fade-back deceleration may only be executed on the Game-Turn that an aircraft pulls out of a dive.



I'll pass!

At least they are using the full terminology. The average paragraph in ASL says:

"If your CFV moves using HW movement after BUF from a COOT HS, then..."

Somehow ASLers consider this "a feature".


LOL, yeah the good old FFMO and FFNAM with the dreaded DRM that is why we AM our MMC and dm our HMG/MMG if we are not AM and using DT with a SMC out of LOS of KEU even if we get CX its much better then a 1MC or worse a KIA with RS not going your way.

Here is a nifty one (sounds more complex then it is, sort of:

From the C1. OB Art PA:

Is SR or FFE:2 on board?
Yes -> Go to the SR or FFE:2 column.
No -> Chit draw
Chit draw:
Red -> No Access
Black -> Is non-NOBA FFE:C on Board?
Yes -> Go to FFE:C column
No -> Remove an SR or FFE:C. Place AR.
Does Observer have LOS to a Location in AR hex?
No -> Access Lost. Remove AR.
Yes -> If there are enemy units in or adjacent to the AR hex, are all of them unknown to the Observer?
Yes -> Extra Chit Draw
Extra Chit Draw
Red -> access Lost. Remove AR.
Black -> Is AR in a Pre-Registered hex of its Battery (or directed by Shipboard Observer) and you wish to place FFE:1?
etc..

And lets not forgot that HD NA for AEC, I always forgot that one.


How about the colonel who wanted a vehicle to report to his location out in the field. The colonel was wait, and waiting, and waiting . . .

So he called the vehicle back and asked what the delay was. The driver of said vehicle called back and stated that they were waiting for a Charlie Charlie Tango. Needless to say, the colonel was confused and probably could have been mistaken for a butterbar!

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 35
RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever ... - 3/17/2021 4:14:01 PM   
JammyO

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 3/2/2021
Status: offline 		Campaign for North Africa by SPI. Spent many hours lovingly reading the rules, gazing at the map, fiddling with the counters....sigh. But I never came close to playing it, lol.

Still, I kept the game and have the chunky box containing all of its goodies ... every now and then, I take it out of the closet and say hello, for old time's sake.

(in reply to Rebel Yell)
Post #: 36
RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever ... - 3/18/2021 10:25:21 AM   
HeinzBaby


Posts: 174
Joined: 12/1/2014
From: WEST AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		SPI's Airwar was complex, all that coefficent, point decimal $hit was head banging, but great..it worked..
But SPI's 'Campaign for North Africa' meh..
Read the rules and all the data stuff, beautiful map and counters, but never punched out the counters..
Its now a collectable on ebay.
SPI's 'Desert Fox' filled the gap after that..


_____________________________

Heia Safari

(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 37
RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever ... - 3/18/2021 3:25:05 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		Fields of Fire...a amazing game though

_____________________________

My website


https://www.awargamersneedfulthings.co.uk/

(in reply to HeinzBaby)
Post #: 38
RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever ... - 3/18/2021 9:29:05 PM   
Kuokkanen

 

Posts: 3545
Joined: 4/2/2004
Status: offline 		BattleTech

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MekWars
Post #: 39
RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever ... - 3/18/2021 10:21:42 PM   
Don60420

 

Posts: 124
Joined: 9/26/2007
Status: offline 		Vietnam by Victory Games. Playing it solo was impossible. It was made to be played by people sentenced to life in prison.

(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 40
RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever ... - 3/18/2021 10:44:30 PM   
dox44

 

Posts: 668
Joined: 5/7/2000
From: the woodlands, texas
Status: offline 		FOF is amazing. I will not argue that. Its on my table right now. It pushed off "A Time for Trumpets" last week...

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 41
RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever ... - 3/19/2021 10:15:35 PM   
ezzler

 

Posts: 863
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Vietnam by Victory Games

This is now being remade and reprinted by GMT Games. people are going ape for it. They love the idea.

For me, who played it solo, like everyone else, it is the most fantastic and tedious, frustrating, confusing, difficult and sometimes exciting but mostly boring game ever. Its a real tribute to the actual war.

The blurb for the remake boasts they are not planning on changing any rules.
No idea why that would be a plus. The combat, while very well developed and everything, is also endless, repetitive, unfulfilling, soul sapping, mostly pointless, search and destroy, attrition combats. That result in not much reward for the effort of taking them.

Its not on my radar, that's for sure. And I like the game.

(in reply to Don60420)
Post #: 42
RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever ... - 3/19/2021 10:16:55 PM   
ezzler

 

Posts: 863
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		Most complex. probably Federation and Empire or World in Flames.

(in reply to ezzler)
Post #: 43
RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever ... - 3/19/2021 11:58:07 PM   
Deathtreader


Posts: 1039
Joined: 4/22/2003
From: Vancouver, Canada.
Status: offline

David Bolt's DEATH OF EMPIRES trilogy WWI at the operational level. Not sure if they were all published or not but I had the first one in the series THE COSSACKS ARE COMING all about the Russian invasion of East Prussia in WWI. Tannenberg, Gumbinnen et al.

2 editions and several rounds of errata exceeding the very lengthy combined standard and special rules sets of the original edition. Tracks for this that and you name it. I can already feel the headaches coming back...

Having said that... this game system would be perfect for a digital environment.

Rob.

_____________________________

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Hmmmm... big place ain't it??
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Post #: 44
RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever ... - 3/20/2021 2:28:50 AM   
springel


Posts: 363
Joined: 1/2/2005
From: Groningen, NL
Status: offline 		The best way to play complex games, I found, was with a large team.

In the early nineties we played large scenario's with large teams, like Terrible Swift Sword, or the Battle of Trafalgar with all ships in miniatures, and when you only had a single small portion of the force you could really get involved in a local fight with global consequences.

(in reply to Deathtreader)
Post #: 45
RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever ... - 3/20/2021 5:20:44 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ezzler

Most complex. probably Federation and Empire or World in Flames.
warspite1

I second that emotion! I haven't met a World In Flames player yet that hasn't admitted to have been playing rules incorrectly!!


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(in reply to ezzler)
Post #: 46
RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever ... - 3/20/2021 5:44:51 AM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: ezzler

Most complex. probably Federation and Empire or World in Flames.
warspite1

I second that emotion! I haven't met a World In Flames player yet that hasn't admitted to have been playing rules incorrectly!!


Well, we started playing WIF as teenagers, with limited knowledge of the English language. So we didn't pick an automatic US entry chit at the end of the turn. And were bewildered why US never entered the war. We were hooked though.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 47
RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever ... - 3/20/2021 6:29:47 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: ezzler

Most complex. probably Federation and Empire or World in Flames.
warspite1

I second that emotion! I haven't met a World In Flames player yet that hasn't admitted to have been playing rules incorrectly!!


Well, we started playing WIF as teenagers, with limited knowledge of the English language. So we didn't pick an automatic US entry chit at the end of the turn. And were bewildered why US never entered the war. We were hooked though.
warspite1

That is NUTS!!

So lets get this right:

- You didn't speak English that well
- You set about trying to learn a complex game with a what? 120 odd page rule book
- The game is quite unlike anything I've played before so I guess it was the same for you then
- The rules aren't even written in good English - they were written by a bunch of Aussies











_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 48
RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever ... - 3/20/2021 6:51:30 AM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: ezzler

Most complex. probably Federation and Empire or World in Flames.
warspite1

I second that emotion! I haven't met a World In Flames player yet that hasn't admitted to have been playing rules incorrectly!!


Well, we started playing WIF as teenagers, with limited knowledge of the English language. So we didn't pick an automatic US entry chit at the end of the turn. And were bewildered why US never entered the war. We were hooked though.
warspite1

That is NUTS!!

So lets get this right:

- You didn't speak English that well
- You set about trying to learn a complex game with a what? 120 odd page rule book
- The game is quite unlike anything I've played before so I guess it was the same for you then
- The rules aren't even written in good English - they were written by a bunch of Aussies











Yep. You got it right. I had bad school English, and so did the others. I was below average in foreign languages in school. And English was no exception. And I hadn't really read anything in English voluntary before. I know I bough a book in English before that. But I also recall that I gave up on page two.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 49
RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever ... - 3/20/2021 6:58:24 AM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
- The game is quite unlike anything I've played before so I guess it was the same for you then


Had been to the game store before and longingly looked at all the strategy games but couldn't allow myself to spend all that cash on a game I had no idea how it would work out. No one to play with. Had played risk before. And chess. A year before I joined the local chess club.

Anyway, when I stand watching the games. Looking longingly at a Vietnam game, in walks two members my age from the chess club. We only met at the club before and had only talked chess with each other. And that day we became life long friends, and we got World in Flames. That evening I sat up the invasion of Poland and tried to make sense of it.

We also began playing role playing games and to do that we had to move over to English written games. Not enough material in Swedish.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 50
RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever ... - 3/20/2021 11:37:49 AM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 1380
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm
Yep. You got it right. I had bad school English, and so did the others. I was below average in foreign languages in school. And English was no exception. And I hadn't really read anything in English voluntary before. I know I bough a book in English before that. But I also recall that I gave up on page two.

I was a "meh" student in English until the biggest library in the area opened a English section. I bought the first book of the "Dragonlance Chronicles" and I was hooked. Then at the beginning of the Summer this "Dungeons & Dragons" thinghie arrived (the self-contained "Red Box")...

Next year my English teacher went crazy when my knowledge of the language skyrocketed. I started using arcane words like "nocturnal" (I remember clearly when I translated "I got a night call" with "nocturnal call" instead, only to get question marks around my choice of words). She tried to find out how I "cheated" but failed. At the end I simply told her how I had started reading fantasy books and how that had helped.

Having said that, the book that I loved the most in high-school was James Joyce's "Dubliners" - so the Balance of the Force was, at the end, restored for the teacher...

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 51
RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever ... - 3/20/2021 3:24:03 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm
Yep. You got it right. I had bad school English, and so did the others. I was below average in foreign languages in school. And English was no exception. And I hadn't really read anything in English voluntary before. I know I bough a book in English before that. But I also recall that I gave up on page two.

I was a "meh" student in English until the biggest library in the area opened a English section. I bought the first book of the "Dragonlance Chronicles" and I was hooked. Then at the beginning of the Summer this "Dungeons & Dragons" thinghie arrived (the self-contained "Red Box")...

Next year my English teacher went crazy when my knowledge of the language skyrocketed. I started using arcane words like "nocturnal" (I remember clearly when I translated "I got a night call" with "nocturnal call" instead, only to get question marks around my choice of words). She tried to find out how I "cheated" but failed. At the end I simply told her how I had started reading fantasy books and how that had helped.

Having said that, the book that I loved the most in high-school was James Joyce's "Dubliners" - so the Balance of the Force was, at the end, restored for the teacher...

That was the first book in English that I read. Although I had begun with role-playing games before I started to read fantasy novels in English.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 52
RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever ... - 3/21/2021 1:48:59 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		I also have a hard time with English. I can understand most of it but . . .

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 53
RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever ... - 3/21/2021 11:43:43 AM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 2625
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Gulf Strike, by VG!

_____________________________

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PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985

I was Navy, but Assigned TAD to the 24th MAU Hq in Beirut. By far the finest period of my service!

(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 54
RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever ... - 3/22/2021 11:24:39 AM   
jhyden


Posts: 386
Joined: 1/3/2018
From: 37 north, 122 west
Status: offline
quote:


RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever played?

Or tried to play.



I'd have to say the avalon hill game called 'third reich'. my gaming friend's friend introduced him to the game so we both learned it together. this was waaaay back in the early eighties. lately, the most difficult computer game (based on a board game) is world in flames. I'm currently going through the manuals and tutorials. i may take a gaming break from studying and share some gaming time with either witp.ae or close combat for awhile. not sure yet.


best wishes to all


_____________________________
Post #: 55
RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever ... - 3/22/2021 12:10:24 PM   
bayonetbrant

 

Posts: 431
Joined: 5/17/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ezzler

The combat, while very well developed and everything, is also endless, repetitive, unfulfilling, soul sapping, mostly pointless, search and destroy, attrition combats. That result in not much reward for the effort of taking them.



I'm not sure you could've more accurately captured the realism of ground combat in Vietnam if you were trying to

(in reply to ezzler)
Post #: 56
RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever ... - 3/26/2021 11:52:57 PM   
gamer78

 

Posts: 536
Joined: 8/17/2011
Status: offline 		Board game or not it is the Factoria I believe. Bit of an engineering project. From what I see from 'reddit' still in development. I've purchased mounths ago still didn't figure out how to play.
Other than that Shadow Empires lately.

(in reply to bayonetbrant)
Post #: 57
RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever ... - 3/27/2021 12:48:26 AM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm
Yep. You got it right. I had bad school English, and so did the others. I was below average in foreign languages in school. And English was no exception. And I hadn't really read anything in English voluntary before. I know I bough a book in English before that. But I also recall that I gave up on page two.

I was a "meh" student in English until the biggest library in the area opened a English section. I bought the first book of the "Dragonlance Chronicles" and I was hooked. Then at the beginning of the Summer this "Dungeons & Dragons" thinghie arrived (the self-contained "Red Box")...

Next year my English teacher went crazy when my knowledge of the language skyrocketed. I started using arcane words like "nocturnal" (I remember clearly when I translated "I got a night call" with "nocturnal call" instead, only to get question marks around my choice of words). She tried to find out how I "cheated" but failed. At the end I simply told her how I had started reading fantasy books and how that had helped.

Having said that, the book that I loved the most in high-school was James Joyce's "Dubliners" - so the Balance of the Force was, at the end, restored for the teacher...



Very similar to my story. Couldn't read until I was 7. However once I could I loved reading. At age of 11\12 it was Lord of the Rings that really blew my mind.

_____________________________

My website


https://www.awargamersneedfulthings.co.uk/

(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 58
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