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mdiehl -> RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? (3/2/2007 6:50:29 AM)
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However, saying "WE put the flag on the moon" simply because you live in the same state as the guy who actually did that is just ridicolous level of "collectivism".
It's not "collectivism" in the sense you're using the word. It's nationalism. Nor do I think it "ridiculous." Any American that supported the effort financially, politically, or in the engineering sense, is part of the "we." After all, as I noted before, when Kennedy said "we choose to go to the moon," his "we" did not mean "we Kennedies" nor "we in the White House" nor "we in Washington D.C." -- it was clearly a referent to all Americans and that was certainly how the overwhelming majority of Americans took it.
Indeed, logically it could not be otherwise. Had there been less than a high degree of pan US unity of purpose there, the deed would not have been done. It was gawdafully expensive.
It was a uniquely American act. Now, maybe where you live it gives you some sense of satisfaction to pretend that Americans weren't on the whole part and parcel of that. I suppose, among the envious, such a claim might provide some small measure of compensation for the fact that your flag isn't one of the ones on the lunar surface.
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Blah blah blah my friend, I am sure you can do better. You think I have distorted notion as to what "communist" is, I think you have. Wikipedia (yeah I know, but it's the fastest source on hand) defines communism thus:
"Communism is an ideology that seeks to establish a classless, stateless social organization based on common ownership of the means of production."
IMO I have done pretty well. Communism isn't the same as collectivism isn't the same as nationalism isn't the same as "shared group identity." In anthropology, and in political science, the terms mean vastly different things. I don't object to your use of Wiki for communism. As ballpark definitions go that is an acceptable one. But look again now at the example. Nothing about sharing the national identity and pride in saying "We" put a man on the moon implies a classless or stateless social organization, nor does it imply common ownership of the means of production.
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By that definition, people like Richard M. Stallman of GNU movement ARE communists.
I'm not familiar with the example. I don't see how the statement "Richard G. Stallman may be a communist" has any bearing on the statement "An American who says 'we put a man on the moon' is a communist." The two are not logically connected at all.
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Now the hisotrical and political baggage of the term "communist" is so nasty and heavy even people who are commies by definition, seek to avoid being classified as such. Well whatever......
That statement MAY be true. I don't see, however, how it has any bearing on the claim that Sven might be a communist because he said "We [Americans] put a man on the moon." Clearly, "We [Americans] put a man on the moon" has no bearing on advocacy of a classless society, no bearing on collectivizing the ownership of production, and expresses a nationalistic (statist) sentiment that is antithetical to the definition of "Communism" that you provided.
In short, your claim isn't supported by the facts.
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