RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (Full Version)

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Jimmer -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (9/29/2008 9:50:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I have not added that yet. Is that a good one to add?


Yes, with proper logging of course.

PP
VP
money
manpower
troops (in place as garrisons would be close enough -- see below)
corps counters (assuming this is possible)
fleet counters (assuming this is possible)
depots

Basically, everything that can change through the course of a game would be good to be able to add back in. As now, only the host should be able to do it. Also, it needs to be fully logged, so all players know it happened. Honorable hosts would not use it to cheat, so the players should already know. But, some may not be so honorable.



borner -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (10/1/2008 3:49:55 AM)

good points



Tanan Fujiwara -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (10/1/2008 9:06:58 PM)

It’s not about the money, at least for me it isn’t… although I do understand the people that complain about this, if you pay a quality price you should get a quality product…

Is the game playable yet?, well, technically it is, although technically you can also play football with a bunch of monkeys if you have a real good imagination and at least one of the chimps has a good and accurate arm… many bugs are still unfixed, the AI is a joke, at least for experienced players (and mind you, although I have been playing EiA for quite some time now, I’ve never won a single campaign game, came close with GB once in a 1805 scenario…), and the pace of PBEM games are about the same as cyberboard games, which aren’t as limited in many ways…

What I really feel sorry about is that this game is neither EiA nor EiH… and it is still actually advertised in the overview as “Empires in Arms is the official licensed computer version of Australian Design Group's classic board game”… which it is really a disgrace to EiA and Australian Design Group altogether. I suppose that it is of no use by now pointing all this out, and that one of the best games in the history of strategy games will never really see the light, and that I should stop following this forum and what some of you will certainly call whimpering… but I can’t help it when I come back to this forum and when I see what has been done to the “computer version of the classic board game”…



Erik Rutins -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (10/1/2008 11:12:40 PM)

The latest v1.04 update should be available very soon.

We've posted before that we hear and understand those who want as much of the EIH stuff removed as possible. Where we can do that, we will, but as a separate "pure EIA" scenario. Our priority remains bugs, AI and PBEM improvements before we get too heavily into scenario editing. But, we've heard these concerns and agreed that they should be addressed.

Regards,

- Erik



StCyr -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (10/2/2008 2:05:56 AM)


quote:

But, we've heard these concerns...



yea, years ago from now....




Jimmer -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (10/2/2008 3:23:23 AM)

Erik, you need to read a bit more before you comment. We're not talking about a scenario editor at all. We're talking about a "host editor": The ability for the host to adjust a current game's items (PPs, VPs, money, manpower, etc).

There are two reasons to have an editor or the ability to edit:

1)  To correct for a bug or a possible mistake (that all agree with), and/or
2)  To "edit" "scenarios".

#1 already exists. The comments in this thread refer specifically to those things, plus what other pieces would be good to add. Nothing more. Only a few squeaky wheels are arguing for less EiH. The vast majority just want the game fully playable in SOME form. It's close, but not there yet.

Bugs, AI, PBEM. #1 is a way to work around some bugs. That's all.



NeverMan -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (10/2/2008 3:37:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanan Fujiwara

It’s not about the money, at least for me it isn’t… although I do understand the people that complain about this, if you pay a quality price you should get a quality product…

Is the game playable yet?, well, technically it is, although technically you can also play football with a bunch of monkeys if you have a real good imagination and at least one of the chimps has a good and accurate arm… many bugs are still unfixed, the AI is a joke, at least for experienced players (and mind you, although I have been playing EiA for quite some time now, I’ve never won a single campaign game, came close with GB once in a 1805 scenario…), and the pace of PBEM games are about the same as cyberboard games, which aren’t as limited in many ways…

What I really feel sorry about is that this game is neither EiA nor EiH… and it is still actually advertised in the overview as “Empires in Arms is the official licensed computer version of Australian Design Group's classic board game”… which it is really a disgrace to EiA and Australian Design Group altogether. I suppose that it is of no use by now pointing all this out, and that one of the best games in the history of strategy games will never really see the light, and that I should stop following this forum and what some of you will certainly call whimpering… but I can’t help it when I come back to this forum and when I see what has been done to the “computer version of the classic board game”…



I couldn't agree with you more.

As far as Matrix marketing the game as "classic EiA", well, that's all it is: marketing. It's almost like Matrix decided to make whatever game they wanted to make regardless of the community and then decided to list it as "classic EiA" because they knew that's why people would buy it. I know that's make no sense (and it doesnt' to me either) but it seems to be the route they decided to take.

Erik, why do you keep saying "WE"?????????????????????????

It seems to me that Marshall is the only one doing any real work on this. Matrix really goofed this one up all around, there's little doubt about that.



borner -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (10/2/2008 4:16:39 AM)

Having never played, or even seen EiH before, I must say there are things in the game that were quite a shock. I think Martix will find that given the option 80%+ of us would have preferred EiA classic.. ....  where did the idea to base it off EiH come from anyway???



NeverMan -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (10/2/2008 4:42:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: borner

Having never played, or even seen EiH before, I must say there are things in the game that were quite a shock. I think Martix will find that given the option 80%+ of us would have preferred EiA classic.. ....  where did the idea to base it off EiH come from anyway???


A select handful of people who Matrix decided to listen to years ago and then that was that, Matrix shut their ears to the masses: not a very smart business move.



iamspamus -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (10/2/2008 12:40:33 PM)

Not to pick too much, but what is "classic" EIA? In every single game I played ... paused for thinking, except for one play by MAIL game...shudder, there were some type of house rules or whatever. So, I get that many want to get back to the "euphoric days" of EIA. I would support that. But many of us ALSO want more advanced rules, house rules or more EIH stuff. If you were able to choose your options, that would work great.

Just my $.02...which is NOW just over one British pence!!!

Jason


quote:

ORIGINAL: borner

Having never played, or even seen EiH before, I must say there are things in the game that were quite a shock. I think Martix will find that given the option 80%+ of us would have preferred EiA classic.. ....  where did the idea to base it off EiH come from anyway???




Marshall Ellis -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (10/2/2008 2:24:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: borner

Having never played, or even seen EiH before, I must say there are things in the game that were quite a shock. I think Martix will find that given the option 80%+ of us would have preferred EiA classic.. ....  where did the idea to base it off EiH come from anyway???


The EiH came from Matrix and I. We went with what we thought would be the best implementation. Add elements of EiH that we as experienced players thought would be good moves. We did not want the game to be just "EiA". The map and counters in the screen shots for the past 10 years should have shown that BUT we might have been wrong in these additions and certain assumptions we made. I'm not sure I could say it any other wa because the cries after release are for more EiA. This is doable. I would really like to get some PBEM stuff fixed and an editor then we can add an "EiA Classic" scenario.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (10/2/2008 4:12:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan
As far as Matrix marketing the game as "classic EiA", well, that's all it is: marketing. It's almost like Matrix decided to make whatever game they wanted to make regardless of the community and then decided to list it as "classic EiA" because they knew that's why people would buy it. I know that's make no sense (and it doesnt' to me either) but it seems to be the route they decided to take.


This is simply false. We made the deviations from EIA clear in a number of discussions here over the years that this game was in development. Our goal from the beginning was to make a game that most of the EIA community would enjoy. If we've fallen short, it's entirely our fault but we are certainly listening and trying to address problems and suggestions post-release.

quote:

Erik, why do you keep saying "WE"?????????????????????????
It seems to me that Marshall is the only one doing any real work on this. Matrix really goofed this one up all around, there's little doubt about that.


Marshall has always been the developer on this project. That doesn't mean this hasn't been a team effort. Any mistakes or problems are on all our shoulders.

Regards,

- Erik



Tanan Fujiwara -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (10/2/2008 5:17:13 PM)

So what you are just saying basically is that we can’t trust matrix at all… that a potential customer should look at this web page:
 
http://www.matrixgames.com/products/285/details/Empires.in.Arms
 
and then say, “hey, that sounds neat!!!, I like the game and want to buy it, but I really should read the forums and inform myself further, and join or ask the community more to really see if what it says is true…”, excuse me, but I think that’s BS… If that’s your marketing plan, “let’s say something which is technically true but that doesn’t really stand up upon closer inspection and carry on...”
 
Because if that’s what you’re suggesting I don’t think that Matrix has a bright future ahead. People will just fall once for it and then be very careful about what Matrix has to offer them.
 
So, this just means that what you advertise is not really true and the only way to find out about it is to enter the forums??? We can’t just see what you advertise and trust that you aren’t given us some a technically true overview???
 
I’m not saying this because of me… I had a fairly good idea of what I was buying (mind you, not the bugs or releasing a beta product), but that doesn’t change the fact that your advertisement of this product is not true in many ways…



NeverMan -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (10/2/2008 7:04:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanan Fujiwara

So what you are just saying basically is that we can’t trust matrix at all… that a potential customer should look at this web page:

http://www.matrixgames.com/products/285/details/Empires.in.Arms

and then say, “hey, that sounds neat!!!, I like the game and want to buy it, but I really should read the forums and inform myself further, and join or ask the community more to really see if what it says is true…”, excuse me, but I think that’s BS… If that’s your marketing plan, “let’s say something which is technically true but that doesn’t really stand up upon closer inspection and carry on...”

Because if that’s what you’re suggesting I don’t think that Matrix has a bright future ahead. People will just fall once for it and then be very careful about what Matrix has to offer them.

So, this just means that what you advertise is not really true and the only way to find out about it is to enter the forums??? We can’t just see what you advertise and trust that you aren’t given us some a technically true overview???

I’m not saying this because of me… I had a fairly good idea of what I was buying (mind you, not the bugs or releasing a beta product), but that doesn’t change the fact that your advertisement of this product is not true in many ways…


Absolutely Tanan, that is what Erik is saying: If you don't read the Matrix forums then there is no idea what kind of game you will be buying DESPITE the game description. That's a little weak, IMO and Matrix needs to update the game description.

For some reason all the Matrix employees want to take this personal when they shouldn't. You are running a BUSINESS (even if it feels like family to you guys, it's not to most of your customers) so you shouldn't take these criticisms personal you should take them as advice/feedback.

Marshall keeps mentioning my poor bedside manner, and maybe that's true, but I don't think that's relevant. What IS relevant is that I like war games (particularly EiA) and am now very hesitant about buying any of the titles from Matrix, even ones that should be awesome (like MWiF).



Erik Rutins -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (10/2/2008 8:37:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanan Fujiwara
So what you are just saying basically is that we can’t trust matrix at all… that a potential customer should look at this web page and then say, “hey, that sounds neat!!!, I like the game and want to buy it, but I really should read the forums and inform myself further, and join or ask the community more to really see if what it says is true…”, excuse me, but I think that’s BS… If that’s your marketing plan, “let’s say something which is technically true but that doesn’t really stand up upon closer inspection and carry on...”


I think I would classify your assessment of my statement as a significant exaggeration. What I'm saying is that when you see a note like this in the features list on that page you just linked to:

"Includes some enhanced rules and play options added over the years by Empires in Arms players"

Then perhaps if you are concerned at what that means, you should ask in the forum.

In general, I think it's a good idea to check the forums for games before purchasing them. I know I do. And I hardly consider something that we've posted publicly on the forum (and as I recall, the deviations from EIA rules were posted as a Pinned FAQ thread for at least two years before release) to be an attempt to conceal it from players.

It's self-evident that a brief store description and a bullet point features list can't possibly tell you every last detail about the game. Therefore, if a particular feature or the lack thereof is of ultimate importance, I definitely advise you to make a quick post in the forum to make sure it is what you think it is before buying. We are in favor of having informed customers, which is why we have these forums so that we can discuss and share information beyond what fits in a single page description.

Regards,

- Erik



Erik Rutins -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (10/2/2008 8:39:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan
For some reason all the Matrix employees want to take this personal when they shouldn't. You are running a BUSINESS (even if it feels like family to you guys, it's not to most of your customers) so you shouldn't take these criticisms personal you should take them as advice/feedback.


I'm not taking this personally at all, but I feel obligated to point out when I feel that a false or misleading conclusion has been reached.

quote:

Marshall keeps mentioning my poor bedside manner, and maybe that's true, but I don't think that's relevant. What IS relevant is that I like war games (particularly EiA) and am now very hesitant about buying any of the titles from Matrix, even ones that should be awesome (like MWiF).


I'm sorry to hear that. From our perspective, we were entirely open about this release. We also screwed up in terms of the bugs and AI problems that presented themselves at release not being caught before. However, I do not feel that we were misleading in marketing the game.

Regards,

- Erik



timewalker03 -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (10/2/2008 10:56:06 PM)

Erik,

As far as enhanced rules, wouldn't it be fair to say that those advanced rules dominate game play in many facets of the game. One thing I would like to point out is simply this. When i first joined the forums in 2003 this is the only game I followed and the only reason I looked at Matrix. In the beginning and for many years the game was going to be EIA and not a variant. Then didn't Matrix begin consulting the person who first put EIH on the map. I cannot remember his name right now. After that it seems once that person came on board the game changed to more or less EiH even though many many in the community did not want it.

The biggest problem I have is you only have a few playtesters for this game and have always kept that group small. I see now that you use us the "Consumer" to do most of that now and still have a tiny group Officially testing for you. I realize you sold the soul of the game to EiH and to PBEM at the expense of the AI. I also realize that we may only see an official update about once a quarter with only one programmer. I implore you though to bring on more official play testers to speed some of this up. Maybe even bring on a part time programmer to help. I know you won't for fiscal reasons, but it would better serve this game and this community if you would.



Grapeshot Bob -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (10/3/2008 1:02:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: timewalker03
I implore you though to bring on more official play testers to speed some of this up.


I'm not sure if you realize this, timewalker03, but you and I are the playtesters.

The guys who bought the game.

A 5 page thread called "Is This Game Playable Yet?" should be a major warning to anyone considering purchasing this game.



GSB



NeverMan -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (10/3/2008 1:11:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins



I'm not taking this personally at all, but I feel obligated to point out when I feel that a false or misleading conclusion has been reached.
Regards,

- Erik


Erik, unfortunately the only thing misleading is the title of this game: EMPIRES IN ARMS, which it is NOT. How is that not misleading?

So if I tell you I will sell you a lexus and you agree then send you a yugo you're going to be cool with that? WOW, I have some real estate in the swam....er... beach front property in Florida to sell you.



LarryP -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (10/3/2008 1:51:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grapeshot Bob

A 5 page thread called "Is This Game Playable Yet?" should be a major warning to anyone considering purchasing this game.

GSB


It is, believe me it is. [:)]



timewalker03 -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (10/3/2008 2:19:53 AM)

yep we are the testers. excellent point. wish I would have thought of that myself!



borner -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (10/3/2008 3:59:08 AM)

to the comment:   The map and counters in the screen shots for the past 10 years should have shown that BUT we might have been wrong in these additions and certain assumptions we made.......

Forgive me, but at the time I had not spent very much time in the forums. As such, I bought this product as it was MARKETED! I have great respect for you and your effort Marshall, but I take great exception to this comment. I take it to imply that I should have gone through and read the threads before buying the product, so I knew what I was getting. If I missed something about the differences being pointed out on the game webpage, my apologies. Overall, I feel these are somewhat minor, but please do not. In the future apparently the moral of the story is not to only read what this company says about a game, but to cross reference this with the forum conversations. Thankfully I have been reading the WiF threads, so by this train of thought, I should know what to expect....




timewalker03 -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (10/3/2008 4:44:54 AM)

The moral to the story is not so great product, Consumers fault for not researching enough. Does that about sum it up?



NeverMan -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (10/3/2008 4:53:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: timewalker03

The moral to the story is not so great product, Consumers fault for not researching enough. Does that about sum it up?


The only issue I have is this: Matrix refuses to say they goof, period. They will come out and say "Oh, we realize the game is not quite right BUT if you were a good consumer you would have done your research."

There is always a BUT with this company. There's an underlying flaw in that business model.

I realize I'm a negative nealy (or whatever) and I should just shut up, mind my business, thank Marshall and Matrix for even bothering to make this into a PC game, take what I get and like it without question. The bottom line is that the game doesn't bother me NEARLY as much as the constant BUTs from Matrix.

The game will be fixed (eventually, and maybe it will even turn out great, I don't know) but Matrix will still feel like it's the consumers fault for not doing enough research. Trust me, I want to believe, it's just hard with that sort of PR.



timewalker03 -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (10/3/2008 6:13:41 AM)

The sad thing neverman is this will not change. If you do not worship what Marshall has done then some people on here will berate you because they think it will hurt Marshall's feelings. If you question the practices of the company Erik will show you the error of youor ways and then place blame on you for buying the game without adequate research. What some will tell you is this game is a niche game or you are not as hardcore a wargamer as they are. This game was six years in development and I followed it from 2002 to today, and I scratch my head and have to ask this is it? Now that this is the product out on the market i have to ask what is taking so long to get patches out to fix specific problems. It should be once a month with as many fixes they can make in a month. Then I begin to realize the actual problem. One programmer, two or three official play testers, and a company that may not care as much as we think and seems to only reply when a correction to their image is needed. I do realize the game is being supported but to what level of standards. I would like to see the games success, but the way it is being handled seems a lot sketchy to me.



iamspamus -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (10/3/2008 9:09:24 AM)

So, why are you guys still here in the forums. If your thought is "Matrix sucks and their games are a lie." or something like that, then what are you hoping to accomplish? Are you just venting? Nothing else to do? We get it your not happy. Why are you still here and still posting? Do you think that it's gonna get any better? If so, how about some CONSTRUCTIVE criticism to help it along. If not, what do you think "Nyah, nyah. You guys did it wrong" is going to to?

Jason



Spartan07 -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (10/3/2008 9:58:20 AM)

Hi,

I am really a bit tired of all the complaining people do about this game. I am involved in two games at the moment one of which we are two game years into. Apart from one or two hicups we have progressed following upgrades and patches from the very first day of release. At this point it leaves me chewing the keyboard waiting for the next turn to arrive. My enforced peace with France is just about to run out playing Austria and I cant wait to see what the Son of a B***H will get up to this time:)

In reality I think mant people are enjoying the game and getting on with it. They are not the ones posting negative propoganda here every few minutes when they get bored.

Matrix have shown fantastic committment to this product and have promised to continuing doing so. In reality guys this isnt a Playstation 3 game. We as a gaming community are asking people to provide us with something that is not as commercially rewarding as other genre. Because of their interest they do it. To be honest I would pay the same again just to have something like this available. Whine all the time and these sort of titles may disappear for ever.

Isnt it time we realise we are in this for the love of the period, the game and the history. If we had waited until this game was perfect we still would nit be playing.

So I congratulate Matrix for what they have done so far and I believe they will continue to refine this game and produce other great titles for people with our peculiar taste in gaming. They are to be supported.

Now back to my game and rant over. No offence intended to anyone and all constructive feedback I am sure is welcomed.




iamspamus -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (10/3/2008 12:41:19 PM)

Yeah, Nego!

I just wonder what the point of all the whining is. If it is to get something done, then that's fine. Let's get it done, but just the same ol' rant of "Matrix sucks", is getting a bit old.

Just my $.02.

On another note, I'll get the 1.04beta and put it on the computer tonight. Yippee.

Jason



David The Great -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (10/3/2008 12:59:46 PM)

It saddens me to see what became of EiA, a few years ago i posted a thread with the question if the project was hijacked bij some EiH fanatics, it seems it has been. This has kept me from buying the already not so cheap, game.
Would it not have been wiser to stick to the original and made the EIH stuff optional insted of the other way arround ?
If someone buys this game under the assumption that he buys a pc version of the boardgame, i can understand that he would feel cheated.



borner -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (10/3/2008 1:01:47 PM)

I am pleased that the two of you feel you got your money's worth out of this product. This thread is here for those of us who disagree, to have an outlet to express that, and get some feedback from Matrix.

As for your two games that are going well... I hope that remains the case. However, when you have a corps disappear, a minor change status, an Ottoman empire that does not function correctly, or any of the other bugs that have been talked about here, we will see if your feelings change. Personally I do not think I have gone as far as "Matrix S*cks", but to tell me that I should have read through the forums before buying this game is plain wrong!



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