RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (Full Version)

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GShock -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/26/2008 2:59:19 PM)

The real issue with this game is that it's aimed to those who played EiA boardgame. These players will probably just find one or two problems... Now in my case, i played the boardgame almost 15 years ago and i forgot everything.

I had expected a decent manual, to at least explain where to click to perform an action and not just the mechanics and adaptations to a boardgame i can't recall the rules for. Some examples, worth more than entire paragraphs and, since the game is so complex, a whole load of video and in-game tutorials. All game manuals i know describe these procedures in detail, and not just the mere concepts behind the procedures.

The graphical dress of the game is perfect for a 386SX, and though graphics aren't surely the main goal for this kind of games, i honestly had expected at least a decent result.

The UI is something unimaginable. The first time i tackled the game, i set up the pieces as per scenario and at the first turn i wanted to place more pieces and i was unable to do so without any indication on the reason why i was denied. Of course, the manual doesn't show all the information needed to play, like it was done by the creators FOR the creators and full stop.

Absolutely inadeguate manual, very poor graphics, totally inconsistent UI are problems coming much sooner than the AI....that you can beat by playing vs human opponents. My problems with this game, i refuse to beat...and i refuse to post 20000 questions whose answers should be in the manual. The boards are composed by the community of players, i can ask for one or two clarifications but i can't ask every time i want to play where to click to do this or that or why, when i click, nothing happens and there's no indication on the whys.

It's embarassing...not for me, i surely don't feel an idiot for being unable to make a move. It's not my fault.

I uninstalled the game and waited ...and am still waiting and probably i will wait for long (and in vain) before i can really play this game. Bought the day of the release and uninstalled next day. Reinstalled, patched, and uninstalled 10 minutes later. Still the same problems.

I can understand and tolerate everything, especially in a V1.0 but not these 3 priorities being missed: Manual, UI, Graphics.
When these are missing, I don't expect a patch to revive a cadaver.

I am not sad or upset for the money spent but i am surely surprised that the publishers couldn't force the DEVs into achieving at least the decency status for this game.

One shouldn't ever feel sorry for saying what he thinks...so, by saying I am sorry if this post seems offensive, i am doing it, just for politeness.
Etiquette is less important than intellectual honesty.



bresh -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/26/2008 4:41:28 PM)

I dont quite agree, with you DCWhitworth, the game can run yes.

Smoothly not quite, bugs rule many outcomes. Even when nations surender..
And each bug is to me a disapointment.

GShock, i cant say what you expect, but graphics count little to me in a stratetig game, vs playability.
The game is not that hard to learn, but its true. Matrix could had used more time and effort with the manual.



Regards
Bresh



NeverMan -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/26/2008 5:56:26 PM)

I agree that the manual and tutorials, etc could have been a lot better. I also agree that the UI and Graphics are severely lacking.

All that aside, the mechanics of the game are fairly easy to pick up if you have ever played another computer game. I rarely read manuals. This game is very complex (competing with WiF for complexity level); however, if you take more than 1 day to try to learn the game you will be fine. You aren't going to sit down and conquer this game in 15 minutes, so if you have a short attention span then this game isn't for you.



Marshall Ellis -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/26/2008 11:00:12 PM)

I found it quite easy to learn LOL!




fvianello -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/26/2008 11:57:50 PM)

There are still some problems, but I think the game-stopping ones are gone by now.
That said, the rules are complex; in particular, this is one of the few games that really requires to think ahead to do almost everything. You're not going to play without taking at least a look at the rules; most of the the problems will solve if you just learn the sequence of play.

Can't place a new piece ?
You had to buy it 3 months ago during the economic phase
Can't move into an area?
You had to declare war 3 phases ago during the diplomatic phase.
Can't place a supply depot?
You had to place a corps there during the land phase.

Just to get the idea, I consider myself quite an expert player, but despite that during the last turn I spent 30 minutes to decide where to place a single tiny corps trying to prevent a possible french double move that could allow bonaparte to cross the elbe without having to face the bulk of my army.

Regarding the UI, all you have to do is to click on one piece, an area or a button. There's nothing more. If you are not able to do what you wish, 99% of the times is due to a rule, not the UI.




Cunctator -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/27/2008 1:05:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gazfun

Yes we have been going very well since 1.02k has come out, with few problems.
Cunctator you should chill out a little man[sm=innocent0009.gif]


I have to chill out ???
In the last two turns in TGHQ 4 (one of your game Mr. Gazfun) we were forced to backtrack 2 times because some sieges could not be managed and the game was forced to a halt.
In the previous we resolved the problem on my side (France) renouncing to siege Vienna and after with Mack obliged to fight a desperate battle against the bulk of Grande Armee.
In the last turn it was impossible to resolve the siege in Kassel until our great host managed to resolve the problem. Before that battle other two sieges were resolved, but after the end of kassel battle they returned unresolved....I managed to achieve the same results of the original turn to avodi to exploit a bug to my advantage.
Those are the facts my friend.
I don't have to chill out at all provided that this game is full of unresolved bugs, but I never said that I want to quit.
I'm playing in 4 games after that 3 or 4 games were abondoned or restarted (never by me) and I confirm that every turn is an adventure.
I confirm too that I will keep on playing hoping in a better future.
Many bugs are behind us, but many are in front of us.
My fellow players will be good witnesses of the time we spent to continue the game.
I was very polite in my last post, I believe, so there's no need to chill out anything or anybody.
Peace and love, brothers.




GShock -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/27/2008 8:38:05 AM)

When i buy a game, i expect the manual to tell me the rules of the game in CLEAR fashion, with examples and, if the game is hard, to also have some tutorials.
I expect the UI to tell me if i can't do something due to a rule violation, and of course, i expect the manual to tell me the rules.

EiANW is a game, and as such it must have a manual. The more complex the game is the more complex the manual has to be. Both boardgames and computer games manuals start with the basic, not with the advanced concepts. EiANW presumes i play EiA or that i know its rules so it shows the adapted rules to the PC version and its UI doesn't tell you WHY you can't place that chit, if u can but not there, if u can't for what reason, you can't. Almost every game i know uses tooltips and almost every manual i read uses examples. Those are things that help the learning curve. In my case the lack of a good UI and a DECENT manual, made me run away.

Look at the situation described in other thread about the british advantage in navy: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1897875 as an example.

The guy posts the rules...some answers "presuming". Is this normal that despite having a rule, players must PRESUME what the rule is?

So the manual, not only is a very poor one, scarn, empty, void of examples and without in-game tutorials, but it also omits to say very important things (and most certainly after the 2 patches it is ALSO outdated).

In my case I have the chit.
You say i must have bought it 3 months before during the economic phase. Right...but it's the first real turn after the setup and if i haven't bought it how comes i have it? The game must tell me, its manual or its UI, not the forums. We are talking of an issue I had with 1.0. Did i care to ask in the forums why? No, i just uninstalled the game.

It's the ABC of wargaming: building a game that EVERYONE can play. This is not about complexity but about poor design. You start by saying how you make a move, how you make an attack, what it means to control a neutral country...and then you ALSO put the rules.

Guys, the EiA manual is 128 pages long. How long is the EiANW manual? [:)]



pzgndr -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/27/2008 11:58:27 AM)

quote:

So the manual, not only is a very poor one, scarn, empty, void of examples and without in-game tutorials, but it also omits to say very important things (and most certainly after the 2 patches it is ALSO outdated)... Guys, the EiA manual is 128 pages long. How long is the EiANW manual?


In fairness, the original EiA manual was also void of examples and without in-game tutorials, and the AI sucked. Nevertheless, players managed to learn and play the game. Kids these days demand to be spoon-fed and don't want to do their homework, eh? [;)]

Regarding the manual, I would hope that eventually it will be updated and included in a future patch, once all the issues get ironed out and the additional features implemented. A strategy guide would also be nice.



Marshall Ellis -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/27/2008 12:00:11 PM)

That's odd??? What EiA manual are you referencing? My EiA manual is 48 pages long???



GShock -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/27/2008 4:01:36 PM)

ET AL.
[OMISSIS]
The most ghastly omission in Empires in Arms is the lack of a tutorial. Every modern computer game needs a tutorial, and a complex game such as Empires in Arms missing one is inexcusable. You mean I actually have to read the 128-page manual (which, incidentally, mostly tells about rules and not how to actually do things)? Unfortunately, players unfamiliar with the board game will be dumbfounded and overwhelmed as they step into their first game, and a lot of these newcomers will be turned off immediately by the unfriendly approach Empires in Arms takes. The manual doesn’t even have a written tutorial to run through the first couple of turns with an example the player can follow along with. Frankly, I expect a lot more from a $70 game.

From: http://jaguarusf.blogspot.com/2008/04/empires-in-arms-review.html

Indeed it's funny...the guy is saying exactly what i am saying and i did exactly what he said i would do.

Anyway, i found the rules i've been looking for since my first post in this thread, and it looks like, at least in the first edition, the manual was 48 pages long: http://eia.xnetz.com/rules/eiarules.html

However, the adaptation to the PC would require the how to on pieces, icons, tooltip, explanations on how to perform what we do by hand and by voice at the boardgame...and that is what i'm saying (and this reviewer is also saying) it's missing. Luckily, any EiANW player can rebuild the manual. That's a must, guys worth 10 patches and not just one.

Forget tutorials, if the team works on the interface (log and tooltips) making sure everything adheres to those rules, by rebuilding the manual this horrible review can be overthrown and even i could start playing this game.



Jimmer -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/27/2008 8:39:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HanBarca

There are still some problems, but I think the game-stopping ones are gone by now.

Not quite. CleverDevils2 has been down for two weeks or more waiting for a save that will work.



Jimmer -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/27/2008 8:41:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cunctator
... and I confirm that every turn is an adventure.

Isn't "game bug" just another way of saying "Fog of War"?

:)



Marshall Ellis -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/27/2008 8:49:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer


quote:

ORIGINAL: HanBarca

There are still some problems, but I think the game-stopping ones are gone by now.

Not quite. CleverDevils2 has been down for two weeks or more waiting for a save that will work.


Jimmer:

I have this game but remind what the problem was?
I'm slightly in a chaos mode but refresh my memory if you would...?









Jimmer -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/27/2008 8:59:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis
Jimmer:

I have this game but remind what the problem was?
I'm slightly in a chaos mode but refresh my memory if you would...?

The game is stuck. GB is unable to attack the Ottoman pieces (even though they can attack GB). We need to have the saved game files tweaked or something to allow us to proceed.



Cunctator -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/28/2008 1:02:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cunctator
... and I confirm that every turn is an adventure.

Isn't "game bug" just another way of saying "Fog of War"?

:)


Yessss
This game is so difficult...you have to guess enemies' forces and which bug will haunt you during your turn [:D]
Anyway I'm sure that one day we'll see the light.



GShock -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/28/2008 12:03:28 PM)

It's understandable for a game of such complexity not only to be haunted by bugs, especially in the first versions, but also to have an AI that doesn't cope too well with the mechanics and the required choices to achieve good results.
I often said, to so many devs, that a dev who can build a challenging AI without making it cheat, that is, playing on pair with human minds, should go to NASA and not waste his time on programming games. Bugs are not a problem, they come and go, and when some are squashed, new ones come in...that's life and a faulty AI is also life.

What i find important instead is to devote a dedicated team of grognards to rebuild the manual, to keep it up-to-date, to develop video tutorials and to actively seek what the UI needs to replicate, in order to increase the game's popularity (and sales). That's an ongoing project, and not a one-shot effort whose results would bring benefits to the whole community, to the DEVs and to the publishers.
While this team does that, the DEVs could focus on the UI improvements required.

Please, try to look for newcomers joining...we need a user-friendly UI and manual not just exclusively targeted to EiA players...and i don't think it's such a hard thing to organize and do, for any dev house.



Marshall Ellis -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/28/2008 12:38:46 PM)

GShock:

What do you see that you think could be easier?
This is a tough game to grab initially even in it's board fashion.
"User Friendly" is a broad term that is not always the same concept in everybody's eyes but I am always listening ... (At least to the constructive parts ot the posts :-))



GShock -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/28/2008 2:05:56 PM)

The manual, the tutorials.

You need to recruit a band of experienced players and task them to rebuild the manual from scratch and to design it so that any new player can at least understand what each function is, what the options are, what every minimal detail on map and off map, on unit and in every page, means. What can be and can't be done in each of them and the UI must pursue the goal of making the players learn the game rather than pushing them to run away.
Let them build the manual from scratch and add to the game menu the video tutorials (like for example GGWBTS did) for everyone to see how to place depots, how to use diplomacy, how to buy, how to attack, how to blockade, etc etc etc etc.

In the meanwhile you can patch the UI with tooltips who tell you why a button is greyed out or why you can't make a move...user friendly implies newbie friendly. The game must allow even a guy who's never seen EiA to play.

Look at my case as the case of a brand new player. One who has never even seen EiA. I am supposed to study all rules of EiA and then study the adaptation to these rules for EiANW. Then i need to learn where to click to perform each action and what the consequences of these actions are and at the same time when i do an illegal move, the interface doesn't tell me why.
Bingo.





Marshall Ellis -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/28/2008 4:28:13 PM)

GShock:

Those are good ideas for sure. Don't you mena that we need people that are new to EiA? I would think so since they need to write for someone who doesn't speak EiAneese.

Your recommendation on this issue seem valid to me. We did not have too many non-EiA people in the project and it probably did not help matters in this respect.

Appreciate the input!



bresh -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/28/2008 5:35:34 PM)

I havent checked the downloadable tutorial, but is it not supposed to help learn people the game ?

Regards
Bresh



RayKinStL -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/28/2008 5:52:18 PM)

Every time I try to download that tutorial, I get a broken link.

Ray



NeverMan -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/28/2008 5:54:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RayKinStL

Every time I try to download that tutorial, I get a broken link.

Ray


It's really irrelevant since I don't believe Matrix made that tutorial. It was from the community (someone in the community), which should not pass for a professional tutorial from the publisher/dev of this game. If this game was OpenSource and free then the community could have at it, but it's not, it's actually very expensive for a PC game. The lack of helpfulness from MatrixGames is simply not acceptable.



GShock -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/28/2008 6:11:00 PM)

That's it. Luckily the solutions i proposed are very economic.

A video converter costs 50$ even less. Get someone with a good voice to explain each phase in detail for a start, then each page, then the most important rules. You can build the next game menu with a tutorials section, which links to the mpegs.

Get a grognard player to rebuild the manual condensing EiA and EiANW into a single manual, superdetailed, with examples, in PDF with pictures, exact procedures, rules and all possible details. That someone must repatch the manual every time the game is patched...and pdf is totally free. Then it's about the UI and tooltips...which help those who read the manual less than 10 times.

The example, is the first thing...let's look at some other game, WBTS, which is much much less complex than EiANW. To begin with, the manual is HUGE and you can see both links in the menu. The second voice: Video tutorials is the one the new players would desperately need.

[img]http://img37.picoodle.com/data/img37/3/8/28/f_menum_f2f6950.jpg[/img]

A very easy concept like the scouting, is taken on the video tutorials. (There are 15 tutorials, fifteen!)
Look at how the tutorial is done, yellow circle by the mouse cursor, subtitles and the voice (which of course u can't hear in this SS)

[img]http://img32.picoodle.com/data/img32/3/8/28/f_vidm_0c9c8d3.jpg[/img]

Very easy concept? Yes...yet look, the scouting mission along with the cavalry raid takes 2 pages in the manual (which is one hundred and twenty eight pages long) and it carries on as you can see. Regardless the detail of descriptions, players often won't understand until they see the concept in practice.

[img]http://img29.picoodle.com/data/img29/3/8/28/f_scoutm_6f06589.jpg[/img]

This can be a community-based project but the decision to start it must come from you, Ellis. The game is complex enough to scare people away...that's not just me or that review which i casually found when looking for the game manual. You need to do something about it and i think WBTS took the right path that's why i showed it as example.



Marshall Ellis -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/28/2008 10:08:14 PM)

Maybe more like these?
Good, Bad?

http://www.matrixgames.com/products/285/videos/Empires.in.Arms




Grapeshot Bob -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/28/2008 10:54:46 PM)

My God,


I've posted a few times about all these problems. Since v1.0, in fact.

I'll continue to check back periodically to see how the development process is going. If it looks ok, then I'll reload the game and give it a try.



GSB



Mardonius -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/28/2008 11:18:34 PM)

Ralegh's videos are very helpful... Would love to see more.

best,
Mardonius



GShock -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/29/2008 7:54:54 AM)

The main difference between WBTS vids and EiANW vids is not the obvious (and visible) difference in video quality and lenght but the terminology and methods used.

Vid tutorials are embedded in the game, part of the installation directly visible clicking on the game menu. They relate exactly to a manual section and they are ultra detailed on HOW to perform a move, what the move needs to accomplish, what the risks are and so on. They are a practical show of how to do what the manual says it needs to be done. In WBTS there's also an excessive use of tooltips. Region tooltips, unit tooltips and 2 bars (right and top) of buttons for actions and pages each of which also has a tooltip. That's what i call a good UI. It would be perfect if it was sized better because believe me the information is so massive sometimes you can't see the map, but it's better to have it than not to have it, and it's an easy fix for a patch.

So, basically, EiANW vids are done by someone who focused on showing something but not on TEACHING. You can't start playing with those vids...they are something more like a showcase on a particular situation of the game but they don't teach how to arrive there. They are step 2 or 3 but not step 1 and when this game has 100 steps, they just stay there...at step 3. That is, according to me what must be done.

Wbts doesn't imagine you have any knowledge at all about the civil war or any other civil war game. It's style and rules are unique and the vids (and manual) begin from the ABC. That's what's missing from these vids, Ellis.

Come on, you know what i am talking about. Don't make me repeat it again. Just pick the people in charge of the thing and have them rebuild the manual and do the Vids. [;)]



pzgndr -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/29/2008 12:14:20 PM)

quote:

So, basically, EiANW vids are done by someone who focused on showing something but not on TEACHING. You can't start playing with those vids...


I disagree. If you're smart enough to actually play this game, then you should be smart enough to figure it out on your own without being spoon-fed like some ADHD schoolkid. It's more important that the manual be updated to be accurate and show some helpful examples. There is no substitute for actually reviewing a game manual and getting into a game to see for yourself how things work. That's how we used to do it in the old days... and we liked it! [:D]

It took me about two days to figure out the basic game mechanics and game interface when EiANW first came out. And that was with zero experience playing EiA before. It's not that damn hard to start playing this game. Now, learning to play well is another matter entirely, and no short tutorial video is going to TEACH anyone everything they need to know to do that.



borner -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/30/2008 4:44:18 AM)

OK, it's me, Mr. negative again... but we are talking about a program to teach us how to play a broken game..... again, would it not be best to put all the energy into de-bugging this thing, then worry about the AI, instructionals, and such? Then, when the game is truely ready, add improvements? I admit, I pound on Marshall as much or more than most here.. but he is one man trying to work on all this stuff, and I imagine caffine and red bulls only help for so long.






GShock -> RE: Is This Game Playable Yet? (8/30/2008 6:21:00 AM)

There's nothing negative, the game IS complex, and all of these drawbacks were expected. What was not expected was that a game of such complexity was not explained and does not explain as it should to EiA and non-EiA players.

BTW Ellis is not alone. There's a community here. The game won't be broken forever...but if the manual and UI do not improve, fixing it, won't increase much the sales....which ultimately is the top priority for any DEV company.



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