RE: Allied Contact!

RE: Allied Contact! (Full Version)

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Q-Ball -> RE: Allied Contact! (7/9/2009 7:41:27 PM)
Sept 6 Combat Report Back on track, we are now into day 2 of significant action on both sides of the map. Michael may comment further, and we should probably include maps, but here is a quick sit rep: Battle of the Arabian Sea Yesterday, 72 Bettys out of Poona put a hurtin' on an RN CV force that appeared off Pangim. Both CV Formidable and CV Illustrious were damaged heavily. TODAY, despite the Betty units being pretty chewed up, we managed to put 2 more torps into Illustrious, sinking her. CV Formidable escaped Miss Betty, but ate 2 bombs from Helens to keep the fires going, and only made 3 hexes in 24 hours. There is a good chance we can finish her off tommorow, as she is definitely wounded. SCORE SO FAR: CV Illustrious SUNK, CV Formidable Heavily Damaged (and in trouble) ALL HAIL MS. BETTY! Aleutians An Allied transport force of AK's began unloading at Cold Bay. During the day phase, they were roughed up by our planes flying from Umnak, sinking 3 AKs, and heavily damaging 3 more. They suffered casualties from these hits, so the troops coming ashore are hurt. The interesting thing about this is that there was NO CAP at all over the transports; they were more or less sacrificed to get troops ashore. Clearly, they are committed to the death at Cold Bay, if they would send those ships in knowing they would be sunk. Oh, and BB California was confirmed SUNK! A good day for the Empire, tommorow figures to be busy again, with a wounded CV Formidable still within range, and Allied ships still at Cold Bay [image]local://upfiles/6931/C3148AC200484B65AA247E24416D5D74.jpg[/image]

flaggelant -> RE: Allied Contact! (7/9/2009 9:01:02 PM)
i don't really believe they sent that TF in without suport, sacrificing a BB just to get some troops ashore, sounds more like a logistical mess up.. or a very expensive testing of the defenses..? anyway, nice going [8D] are you guys going to bomb ground targets near cold bay (are they coming close to achieving anything), or is everything set to full time naval action?

ny59giants -> RE: Allied Contact! (7/9/2009 11:04:57 PM)
The Americans have kept their CVs 6 hexes away from Umnak Island. My Zeros and Betty got eaten up pretty good on Day 1 when they were set for 11 hex range. Thus, I restricted them to 5 hexes to cover Cold Bay and one hex to the east. On Day 2, BB California was 5 hexes away and ate 10 torpedoes. The Allies saw part of two sentai of Tojo and one of Tony's. I have around 175 fighters on Umnak, but not enough TBs. Brad hit the 2 British CVs and even though he suffered some losses, they both were hit hard. On Day 3, California slid beneath the waves, but Cold Bay was hit by 7 American BBs and transports unloaded. The base had 22 Wildcats on LRCAP (known by the F-4 & F-5 recon flights). The base was close to any attacks. Thus, I guess my LBA hit the AKs and part of a Canadian Bde and American RCT was report to be sunk with the transports. I would imagine that most of the American CVs had CAP with range set for 0 to ensure they didn't bleed over to were the transports were hit in both air phases. The now have two Canadian BF, SeaBee, and 2/3 of a division ashore. There are reports that the lights at the Naval General HQ in Tokyo have not gone out the last few nights. Security around the naval shipyards in Japan, especially at Osaka, have been increased along with sounds of Zeros, Vals, and Kates have been overheard. Sounds of warships have come across the beach at Formosa. The two daitai of Betty at Exmouth have been MIA for a few days. Weather - clicking on various hexes around the Aleutians shows rain forecast from 120 miles west of Umnak to past Kodiak. The 3rd player of this scenario may play a major role again. [8\|]

Nemo121 -> RE: Allied Contact! (7/9/2009 11:26:18 PM)
The allies here are making a serious error.... they are committing to a fight to the death at Cold Bay but they are doing so in a piecemeal manner over a prolonged period of time. This allows you to shift forces into the area and actually cause far more casualties than if they arrived and dumped several divisions ashore over the course of just 1 or 2 days.

Q-Ball -> RE: Allied Contact! (7/10/2009 2:28:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nemo121 The allies here are making a serious error.... they are committing to a fight to the death at Cold Bay but they are doing so in a piecemeal manner over a prolonged period of time. This allows you to shift forces into the area and actually cause far more casualties than if they arrived and dumped several divisions ashore over the course of just 1 or 2 days. Without question they are making a serious error. I respect our opponents and they have made some skillful moves, but the last couple days were puzzling. After weeks of waiting, I would think they could bring 2-3 divisions and finish the job for good. Even if they take Cold Bay, we can still rule the air from the large base at Umnak. They are very fortunate KB was repairing, if KB was anywhere close to the Aleutians (and they had no way to know it wasn't), we would be turning this into a reverse Midway. Here is a map of the situation near Cold Bay. 2 Transport TFs are unloading, with a third apparently about to hit the beach. I wish we had more strike aircraft, we'll have about 40 torpedo carrying planes attacking tommorow, they'll probably get 10 hits or so. The graphic shows our garrison at Cold Bay: [image]local://upfiles/6931/AA98C2169A164724916DAE62C027FFD7.jpg[/image]

Hornblower -> RE: Allied Contact! (7/10/2009 2:32:34 AM)
Nice to see a little action

Q-Ball -> RE: Allied Contact! (7/10/2009 2:33:23 AM)
Here is the situation off India, showing where the RN CV's met Miss Betty. Steve has been a good opponent, but this is a serious Allied error. I didn't really do anything special to get this victory, other than take the basic step of building an airbase large enough to hold torpedo carrying planes, getting an Air HQ, then placing Bettys there on Nav Attack with Nells on search. Maybe they thought we withdrew them because I don't use them on Airbase attack at all, saving them for Nav Attack only. CV Formidable is still out there moving 3 hexes a turn, I bet she goes down tommorow. Note the AP TF; what is that do you think? Running supplies to Bombay? [image]local://upfiles/6931/B1A5C5D8FE5D4E578AD221CDBB6327B7.jpg[/image]

Hornblower -> RE: Allied Contact! (7/10/2009 2:47:19 AM)
Most likely with the CV's providing Cap. Might be an oportunity to send in your Surface TF at Pangim and finish them off if they still intend on making for Bombay.

Q-Ball -> RE: Allied Contact! (7/10/2009 2:50:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hornblower Most likely with the CV's providing Cap. Might be an oportunity to send in your Surface TF at Pangim and finish them off if they still intend on making for Bombay. Steve said he was trying to nail the BB's at Pangim, probably he was doing that plus hoping to sneak that convoy in. At this point, they are withdrawing; even if they do get closer, I have plenty of Sally/Helen nearby to finish the job. Losing those 2 CV's is very critical for them. They are now really stuck out there. The last attack on Bombay was encouraging, I plan to keep taking the forts down, and hopefully finish it by the end of the year. If we can do that, I think this game is over.

Hornblower -> RE: Allied Contact! (7/10/2009 2:52:38 AM)
if you finish this up in 3months game time, thats a sure sign AE is about to show up!

ny59giants -> Weather Rules (7/10/2009 12:13:52 PM)
Day 4 (6 Sept 42) - the true winner today was weather....which means the Allies won. In the Arabian Sea the sole surviving British CV is able to stay under cloud cover and no Nell/Betty fly. At Cold Bay, only a single strike is sent in and this during the PM air phase. 10 Zero and 5 Tony are lost in exchange for 24 Wildcats. 2 AKs are sunk with part of 31st RCT. Ground combat (bombardment only) shows 461 Japanese vs 531 Allies. In Japan, the sound of anchor chains being raised is heard in many ports. [:)] [image]local://upfiles/15133/69681517D9724E30823910A75BBA2106.jpg[/image]

flaggelant -> RE: Allied Contact! (7/10/2009 12:15:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Q-Ball I didn't really do anything special to get this victory, other than take the basic step of building an airbase large enough to hold torpedo carrying planes, getting an Air HQ, then placing Bettys there on Nav Attack with Nells on search. are your betties set to 0 % search and the Nells to 100%, or is it a mix of both? i used to think that having lots of squadrons, all set to 20 % search (assuming they'd fly in organised strikes all together) would give the best result how do you guys see this?? and as a sidenote to the weather/ Allies win, shooting down that many AC over the Alietans sure weakens their CV force, if you can get a CV clash before they make port again they are down to minimal CV cap (assuming LRCAP is not the best way to cover CV's) So its not a waste of materials IMO

Panther Bait -> RE: Allied Contact! (7/10/2009 2:02:34 PM)
I was thinking the very same thing regarding the Wildcats. From the 2nd to the 6th they've lost 42. Even if some of those were land-based, it's gotta be cutting into their CAP performance. If KB can arrive with full airgroups and nice rested pilots, it could get ugly for the US. And then parts of something like 7 regiments (and possibly more on the way) get stranded in the Aleutians with no support coming.

Q-Ball -> RE: Allied Contact! (7/10/2009 3:58:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Panther Bait I was thinking the very same thing regarding the Wildcats. From the 2nd to the 6th they've lost 42. Even if some of those were land-based, it's gotta be cutting into their CAP performance. If KB can arrive with full airgroups and nice rested pilots, it could get ugly for the US. And then parts of something like 7 regiments (and possibly more on the way) get stranded in the Aleutians with no support coming. I always have Bettys on at least 10% search. I had 2 Chutai of Nells on 80% search as well, and set to longer range. BTW, this whole sequence in the Aleutians makes me think again that the absolute worst thing in WITP is to land an insufficient force on a hostile shore, that then gets "stuck". When that happens, you are strategically tethered to trying to control air and sea around a base you don't control. Now, Paul has committed the whole USN on unfavorable ground (within OUR LBA range, but outside of HIS), to rescue an RCT or capture a snow-covered size-1 rock. IMO, he should have let the original forces die, even though that is a tough choice to make. Even if he recovers and takes Cold Bay, he STILL won't control the air over it, making for a protracted struggle.

Panther Bait -> RE: Allied Contact! (7/10/2009 6:18:16 PM)
What's the phrase? - "Boot them, don't spatter them"

John 3rd -> RE: Allied Contact! (7/10/2009 6:52:34 PM)
Hasn't this been GREAT to watch!!!??? A solid and VERY important victory in the IO as well as a building victory in the North. Life is GREAT!!! There have been several hour-long 'consultations' between Admirals Cochran and Benoit. Summation----HERE WE COME! Operational details will be fullly explained and expounded upon as soon as they are finished... The landings up north make little sense. I was expecting a Marine Division and Army Division at a minimum. We plan to move in most of the Imperial Guards Brigade to keep them TIED to the island...

John 3rd -> RE: Allied Contact! (7/10/2009 6:54:01 PM)
If they cannot take the base by the onset of winter, Life might REALLY look good for a complete victory up there for the Dai Nippon...

Salient -> RE: Allied Contact! (7/10/2009 11:58:17 PM)
It has been great to watch... Really, I have been following this AAR and the one you did with Canoerebel, loved it! You guys are geeks but I really love the way you get into it! Always had a sound interest in WWII and history, but certainly not qualified to play ,at this level... Anyways, keep it up, I am really enjoying the discussion and presantation of this war! And Nemo... you crank me up! (in a good way [&o]) Would love to see you and John crossing swords!! What a war would that be... Peace!

Hornblower -> RE: Allied Contact! (7/11/2009 3:03:18 AM)
Nice to get lost in this for a few hours as an escape from our daily stress.... I don't understand why the Allies are making such a push at cold bay. I'd strengthen ankorage and make you come to me. Is there any USN sub activity? i'm at a loss as to why the USN aren't making you pay for the lengthed LOS. The allies should be using the LB's to hit the base.. No need to commit the CV's on this. If they loose the last CV's you can roam at will and cut the LOS from san fran to PH... this is a bad - BAD- move for the allies. UNLESS you are so far ahead on points that he has to do something...

ny59giants -> RE: Allied Contact! (7/11/2009 11:03:49 PM)
7 Sept 42 Cold Bay - Only 11 Wildcats are over the base when the Tony and Tojo escort in the only strike of the day. 6 are lost while 5 AP/AKs are hit with two being sunk. I-31 hits 2 AKs with a single torpedo and is now out of ammo, so she will head for Japan (system damage is over 10). CV Formidable sinks on her own. This means the British and Indian forces have no hope for any relief and/or a counter invasion for the foreseeable future. [:)]

Nemo121 -> RE: Allied Contact! (7/12/2009 12:23:20 AM)
PantherBait, I think you are trying to quote Guderian who said "Fists not fingers" when referring to the manner in which tanks should be employed in combat. Salient, sorry but I don't understand the "crank me up" comment. English ( particularly American English ) isn't my first language. From my understanding "crank me up" usually means " to annoy me" but it could mean "I'm excited by x, y or z". I'm presuming from your phrase that you find my contribution interesting in some way but I'm not sure... Is "crank me up" often used in this way in the United States? Salient - Well John and I did cross swords a couple of times. There's actually an AAR of our Gettysburg game using John Tiller's system on the forum. Basic precis is that we started a game cause I'd heard of Gettysburg but didn't know much beyond " 3 day battle + Pickett" and in the face of John's much greater knowledge fo reinforcement schedules this meant the first game went a bit awry. We agreed to restart and I checked out the reinforcement schedules of both sides and read the Wikipedia entry of the battle to figure out what I ought to be trying to do on Day 1. I lost my cavalry through being too aggressive but late in Day 1 a series of massive Union counter-attacks just as the Union line was breaking routed the Confederates. It was, as you would expect, as bloody as all hell with massive casualties to both sides but given that the day was ending with me holding the key ground and Confederate losses being more serious than mine we called it at the end of Day 1. It was an interesting battle. If John and I were to play I think he'd find himself incredibly frustrated by my frequent failure to fight at times and places he felt were crucial and that this would, in the end, drive him into error --- at which point I'd pounce. Interesting to speculate but impossible to prove of course. As to why the Allies are doing this... They haven't ever shown an appropriate appreciation for the need to fit the acceptance and declination of battles into an overall strategic plan... e.g. they declined battle over the crucial ground of Karachi and yet are accepting it for some speck of dust which has no crucial strategic significance... an especially bad error given that the Japanese were clearly considering advancing further down that chain and ending up impaling THEMSELVES on the US defences. Sometimes when people are doing something bloody foolish there's nothing more going on than them making a mistake. There isn't always a cunning plan [8D]

DW -> RE: Allied Contact! (7/12/2009 2:23:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nemo121 PantherBait, I think you are trying to quote Guderian who said "Fists not fingers" when referring to the manner in which tanks should be employed in combat. Salient, sorry but I don't understand the "crank me up" comment. English ( particularly American English ) isn't my first language. From my understanding "crank me up" usually means " to annoy me" but it could mean "I'm excited by x, y or z". As you guessed, it means "to excite". Whether that's to be taken as a positive or a negative would depend on the context of the sentence. Another way to say it would be "gets me fired up". In this case, it's to be taken positively. quote: I'm presuming from your phrase that you find my contribution interesting in some way but I'm not sure... Is "crank me up" often used in this way in the United States? It's not used with a great deal of frequency, but often enough that most Americans would understand the meaning. It it originates with the practice of turning over an engine with a hand crank it to get it started.

John 3rd -> RE: Allied Contact! (7/12/2009 3:51:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Salient It has been great to watch... Really, I have been following this AAR and the one you did with Canoerebel, loved it! You guys are geeks but I really love the way you get into it! Always had a sound interest in WWII and history, but certainly not qualified to play ,at this level... Anyways, keep it up, I am really enjoying the discussion and presantation of this war! And Nemo... you crank me up! (in a good way [&o]) Would love to see you and John crossing swords!! What a war would that be... Peace! Peace? NEVER! Banzai!!! [sm=sterb029.gif] Seriously--Your comments made me laugh. We do get heavily into the game! Guess I should fall back on my standard greeting for a new poster on the AAR. "Hello...My name is John and I am a WitP ADDICT!" Nemo is great. He always provides a strong counterpoint regarding his views on strategy and tactics. There can be no doubt as to the strength and quality of his advice. ALWAYS listen to it. Mind you I didn't say follow! [:D]

John 3rd -> RE: Allied Contact! (7/12/2009 3:57:14 AM)
I REALLY would like to play the Battlegrounds through with Nemo once my life is sufficiently under control. How about sinking TWO Brit CVs!!! That REALLY impacts Japanese fears regarding the IO for some time to come. We'll keep hammering Bombay and see what happens... Cold Bay is racking up US casualties. The US CVs are tied on a string to Cold Bay and if we are given 7 days. Life will be FUN! There are now well over 100 warships moving to battle. Rough totals are 8 CV, 4 CVL, 4 BC, 10 CA, 6 CL, and 60 DD. "Let slip the dogs of WAR!"

Nemo121 -> RE: Allied Contact! (7/12/2009 10:06:16 AM)
DW, thanks for the explanation. That's an interesting etymology, very American in its origin in a technical mechanism. quote: Nemo is great LOL! Remind me to quote that back to you the next time you get annoyed at my going "Uh, that really isn't the best thing to do." [:D]

ny59giants -> RE: Allied Contact! (7/12/2009 11:20:25 AM)
quote: LOL! Remind me to quote that back to you the next time you get annoyed at my going "Uh, that really isn't the best thing to do." [:D] Fionn - I'll "try" to keep him from jumping of the cliff. John likes to say "jump" before seeing how high the cliff is and then he doesn't always check to see if there is any water below and if the water is deep enough. [sm=00000289.gif] We are doing a role reversal right now. Instead of me looking over his shoulder and giving him sage advice, he is doing it with me. [8\|] If your AARs have taught me anything, it is I don't always have to react to evey move by my opponent. I like my own version of Psych Warfare 101 and want eveything to be in order before the hammer falls. Like John said, give us about one week and then......

vettim89 -> RE: Allied Contact! (7/12/2009 2:01:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nemo121 DW, thanks for the explanation. That's an interesting etymology, very American in its origin in a technical mechanism. quote: Nemo is great LOL! Remind me to quote that back to you the next time you get annoyed at my going "Uh, that really isn't the best thing to do." [:D] Nemo has taught me a lot. His extensive knowledge of warfare on a theorectical level is amazing. What he has shown me though is that RL tenets of battle not only apply to WiTP but they work. I think that is testament to how good a game WiTP really is that if you use the same decision making processes that a RL strategic commander would use that you will be successful

Nemo121 -> RE: Allied Contact! (7/12/2009 2:26:29 PM)
Vettim, yes, at the strategic level. At lower levels WiTP can fall apart a bit ( which they are trying to fix in AE ) but at the strategic level it achieves its aim of actually showing how almost everything must be suborned to logistics/strategy. tick, tock Waiting for the turn from Damian to see if we have our huge climactic CV + BB battles this turn or whether we dance for a bit longer. Its actually allowing me to catch up with a few other AARs so it isn't all bad.

Q-Ball -> RE: Allied Contact! (7/12/2009 10:30:26 PM)
Sept 8 Combat Report India As Michael had already said, HMS Formidable sank yesterday; not surprisingly, all other sign of the RN is gone off the India coast. With the loss of those 2 RN CVs, they are down to just Indomitable and Hermes for the forseeable future. That doesn't mean we can relax in India however. Bombay and Karachi both still hold, and Karachi is drawing plenty of supplies. Our flak losses over Karachi have been severe, but I have to keep bombing to keep the airstrip closed. If I were them I would look to stage P-38s to Karachi at some point to start fighting back against my bombers, and re-open the base. P-38s can stage from Aden, I think, but the RAF doesn't have anything else that can make the trip easily. Getting AK's to Karachi is probably not realistic, but they could use the 2 remaining CVs to get shorter-range fighters in, like some Spits. I'm not worried about a landing on the Indian Coast, the loss of those CV's pretty much negates that possibility. Aleutians In the real action today, the Allies unloaded more troops and supplies at Cold Bay. We had a large pack of strike aircraft hit the transports, sinking 3 AK and a DD, and putting hits on at least 6 other ships. 10 Wildcats were shot down, bringing the multi-day total to somewhere around 64. Man I wish we had some CV's up there, they are begging to get hit. This operation for them is very expensive, but I think they are going to take Cold Bay. Our troops are just about out of supplies, and the last BB bombardment was very effective. We need to get a supply convoy fast, and probably can't do that until KB gets up there or the USN CVs withdraw. We would REALLY like to hold Cold Bay, because that will keep the whole USN on a string through the winter up there.

John 3rd -> Twin Battles (7/13/2009 4:15:28 PM)
Had two long conversations with Michael yesterday and got the Fleet basically organized. The Kido Butai organized and departed Tokyo for Attu. At Attu the Fleet will rendezvous with a few more warships and then move into Harms Way. Several Topics: 1. Fuel There is roughly 50,000 fuel in Attu with another 70,000+ on the way in ALL of the AOs. More fuel (about 100,000) is being loaded in AKs to offload at Attu and Adak. This for be plenty for extended operations in the Aleutians. 2. Supply As Brad alluded to THIS is the real problem at Cold Bay. Michael was preparing to send in some 2500-sized AK right before the Americans arrived. Those ships are still there, loaded and waiting. We will have a strong Fast Transport TF at Attu today to begin shuttling in supplies prior to the Fleet arrival. They SHOULD be able to haul about 3,000 supply a run. Biggest fear is running into the American BBs. They hit the base for the second time (SEVEN of them). The bombardments have been spread at 4 day intervals so we'll see if our American opponent falls into Operational PATTERN. If so, we might be able to take advantage of this... Michael has several AK TF moving up from the Home Islands to add to the supply stockpiles at out main bases of Attu, Adak, Amchitka, and Umnak. Roughly 75,000 supply moving up at the moment. 3. Aircraft and Bases Umnak and Amchitka are about to up one in AF size (6 and 4 respectively) and we have a large BF on its way to help Amchitka along with support. (I suddenly cannot remember if this is Adak or Amchitka--I think Amchitka--Michael???) Due to CV complement changes, numerous Vals are moving into the region adding highly experienced and much more capable bobers to the Japanese Strike Planes here. Nearly 500 aircraft of all types in the Aleutians... The FLEET has been organized along the following manner: CarDiv 1 Akagi/Kaga with Vals removed and two Daitai of Zeros ADDED. CarDiv 2 Hiryu/Soryu CarDiv 5 Shokaku/Zuikaku with Vals removed and KATES added. CarDiv 6 Junyo/Hiyo CarDiv 3 CVL Zuiho/Shoho CarDiv 4 CVL Ryujo/Ryuho STF 1 CA/CL/DD under Tanaka The total aerial complement is about 310 Zero, 80 Vals, and 250 Kates. This is the state of things up NORTH! IF the Americans stay tethered to Cold Bay for 7 days we will be able to Strike a MASSIVE punch. Michael has some Psyche Operations about to get underway that should KEEP the US Fleet THERE but I will let him explain. Questions???

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