RE: PBEM 1A (Full Version)

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barbarossa2 -> RE: PBEM 1A (5/14/2009 2:38:22 PM)

Don't know how many points they get.  What is more interesting to me is if any one of them will be able to annex Copenhagen with the provence picker. If not, according to the house rule, Denmark belongs to Sweden and arrangements will have to be made for its transfer.

I just hope Sweden can get her peace now.  If I am granted the right to retain Sweden, Finland, and my possessions in Mecklenburg as well as Denmark then Sweden will have achieved all of her territorial objectives, and for me the war is over.  I will look forward to being left alone until the end of the game.  These lands are essential to my ongoing neutrality since the illegal surprise attack by the English-Russian coalition on my fleet cost me thousands of resource points, and I will need Denmark and Mecklenburg to recoup a small fraction of these losses.

I welcome the imposition of imposed peaces and royal marriages, and will frown on any removal of lands or enforced reparations, as I am sure anyone with any sense of justice will as well after the surprise attack on me.  Sweden wants her peace, and her right to be a viable nation.  Nothing more.  We are glad the war is over.



Kingmaker -> RE: PBEM 1A (5/14/2009 8:55:00 PM)

HiHi

Err, maybe I have completely the wrong end of the stick, but Frank, your house rule seems to me to be aimed at a completely different situation to the one that appertains to Denmark at the moment, ie Sweden only has the one province, he’s captured the Capital yes, but nothing else.

It would seem “odd” to me if your House rule was designed so folk could for example, wait till they were on the verge of surrender then dive in and capture, say Naples, and then have the whole of the Kingdom of Naples fall into their lap.

As I understood your rule it was designed so folk couldn’t keep captured provinces within a Minor power at wars end unless they had also captured the Capitol, ie other provinces have to be captured, as well as the Capitol.

Have I misunderstood? [&:]

All the Best
Peter





IronWarrior -> RE: PBEM 1A (5/14/2009 9:52:55 PM)

That's how I saw it as well Peter. Where I am confused though, is what happens to the province that France captured? Does France get to keep it if they wanted? Do they need to cede it to Russia? Sweden?



barbarossa2 -> RE: PBEM 1A (5/14/2009 10:27:35 PM)

I thought that when a peace is declared unless a player owns the capitol of a minor, he doesn't get to keep it. What is the difference between advancing into a minor and being required to take the capitol to seize the county and losing the capitol and thereby losing control of the nation.  I don't remember anything about owning a "majority" of the provences to determine ownership.

However, I may be wrong, and I am happy to accept Franck's decision.  However, what I don't think is good is having a "subjective interpretation" of the rules on a case by case basis.  Which is why I wanted a "rulebook" description of the house rule.  So I could know what to do and expect in any situation.

However, if the control of the capitol decides on if you hand provences back, it should also determine who owns the minor...because WHERE is the capitol of Denmark now? The problem it raises are many. Here is just one example: Let's say Britiain declares war on Russia now and attacks and occupies all of Norway. Then a peace is declared between Russia and Britain, leaving Norway in British hands. Because Britain doesn't control Copenhagen, they have to give it "back" when a peace is declared with Russia? What happens there? Is "Denmark" now a series of minor nations without a capitol? The house rule has a lot of holes I think. But, as this IS just a game, and I am having fun, I will be happy to let Franck, an ally of Russia, interpret his own rule. :)

Indeed, when I asked Iron Warrior what he thought would happen in an email, I thought he agreed with this interpretation, stating he thought I would get Denmark too (or do I have that wrong IronWarrior?...but its no biggie) :)

However, this game is just for fun, so I don't care what happens. :) And I am happy to accept Franck's decision (I hope my choice of a Russian ally as interpreter of the rule lends credibility to this all).

[:D]

However, had I known this, I would have finished taking Jutland this turn by storming the walls and then surrendering.



Mus -> RE: PBEM 1A (5/14/2009 10:54:55 PM)

My understanding of the house rule was that any non capital provinces of a multiprovince protectorate would have to be ceded back if the capital wasnt taken, not that the entire country would have to be ceded as a result of the capital being taken.

You took the capital, so you could keep the capital, if it isnt demanded as part of your surrender, whereas if you had taken a noncapital province of a protectorate you would need to cede that aside from the surrender terms.

Now as to whether or not copenhagen will be able to be demanded as a concession, I had a thread on here where I reported a ceding province bug in my Path of Napoleon game that occured under similar circumstance.  It may end up being bugged where people can demand you liberate it instead of cede it but it doesnt actually happen, at least thats what happened to me.  I think this is being fixed in the patch.


quote:

ORIGINAL: barbarossa2

What happens there? Is "Denmark" now a series of minor nations without a capitol? The house rule has a lot of holes I think.


Not just the house rule, the game has a hole in this regard as well. My bug situation was centered around Venice and Illyria. Because control of Venice and Illyria was trading back and forth so often over multiple wars, the game eventually ended up assigning Illyria as the Capital of Veneto. When the two countries were "owned" by seperate powers the relationship of Illyria to Venice was broken. I couldnt demand Austria cede Illyria (WCS looked at my saved game and decided this was a bug with the cede province window I believe), and my request to "liberate" Veneto was accepted, but had no effect as I already still controlled "Veneto" just not Illyria. I was actually hit with the Glory bug as France for Austria failing to liberate Veneto (although in a PON game that has no effect as your "glory" comes from fulfilling the goals and isnt added to or subtracted from in the conventional manner) and I ended up having to restart my game over this because Illyria was a target province required to complete the scenario.

This aspect of the game (minors) is very complicated and needs some more work before its perfected.

My guess is a move like this breaks the relationship between Copenhagen and Denmark.



barbarossa2 -> RE: PBEM 1A (5/14/2009 10:59:15 PM)

Mus, like I said, if that's the case and what Franck had in mind, I don't care. :) 



Mus -> RE: PBEM 1A (5/14/2009 11:03:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: barbarossa2

Mus, like I said, if that's the case and what Franck had in mind, I don't care. :) 


Check my other comments. I have seen a similar situation before. Its kinda buggy.



barbarossa2 -> RE: PBEM 1A (5/14/2009 11:04:38 PM)

Mus, historically, I would agree with you on your call that this breaks the relationship between the Kingdom of Denmark and the Kingdom of Norway (they were held in personal union by the House of Oldenburg for centuries).  In a realistic world, I am guessing I would get Denmark (Holstein, Jutland, and Copenhagen...assuming I don't lose Copenhagen in some kind of treaty process now), and a case could be made for the independence of Norway (and it remaining a Russian protectorate).  Jutland didn't have the administrative framework in place to stay independent of Copenhagen, but Norway probably did, as it was its own Kingdom. That is why my historical mind says. Of course, I wouldn't be able to kick the French out of Holstein. So they would probably get to stay. And if those are RUSSIAN troops (not Danish) in Jutland, then I suppose, it would stay under Russian control too. If Danish, then Jutland would probably revert to control through Copenhagen.

But, honestly, as I understood it, I understood the control of the multi-regional minor nation goes to the controller of the capitol. And what I understood better than that, was that it was an unclear rule because of all of the fallout, which is why I really wanted a rulebook like approach to the house rule be posted. Because by capturing the capitol of Denmark, the most important question to answer now is, "what happens to Denmark". Does it cease to exist? Does it break up into its constituent components of Norway and Denmark? Is Denmark now the island of Zeeland? Where is the "new capitol" of what remains of the Russian possessions? However, again, I will accept Franck's judgement. And gladly.

But I really want to stress that had I really understood the "capitol" seizure house rule to leave me with only my taken possessions in Denmark, I would have stormed the walls in Jutland to take it this turn and THEN declared peace.

But like I said, whatever happens, happens. [:)]

I, Barbarossa2, hereby fully submit to the full jurisdiction of the Court of Vienna on all aspects of the matter of the ownership of Denmark and its various provences resulting from the terrible Northern War of 1804 and its subsequent division, and hope that whatever is decided that my good and indefatigable friend, Kingmaker, does not get a bad deal which is not in line with the house rule. [:D]



Mus -> RE: PBEM 1A (5/14/2009 11:10:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: barbarossa2

Mus, historically, I would agree with you on your call that this breaks the relationship between Denmark and Norway (they were held in personal union by one crown for centuries).


Im not saying historically, Im saying the game is a little broken in this area. I had similar bugs pop up over this kind of stuff in one of my single player games and we may see similar issues in our PBEM game now.



barbarossa2 -> RE: PBEM 1A (5/15/2009 12:45:42 AM)

I am just here to learn and have fun, and run Sweden so you guys have a game. :)  So, Frank, do whatever you think is best.



IronWarrior -> RE: PBEM 1A (5/15/2009 12:47:52 AM)

Sorry B2 looks like I misunderstood what you were saying in the email. I can't remember what my reply was, but probably should have reiterated that I didn't fully understand the ramifications of the rule to begin with. [:D]



barbarossa2 -> RE: PBEM 1A (5/15/2009 4:39:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: IronWarrior

Sorry B2 looks like I misunderstood what you were saying in the email. I can't remember what my reply was, but probably should have reiterated that I didn't fully understand the ramifications of the rule to begin with. [:D]


My point exactly. :) Which is why I asked for a binding clarification before I took my move.

Oh well. No biggie.



Kingmaker -> RE: PBEM 1A (5/15/2009 11:45:39 AM)

HiHi

Hmmm, the more I see whats happening here with Copenhagen the more unease I feel about the game as a whole, Mat maybe you could use your Beta tester status to ask Eric or Gil to come looksee at this situation, sorry to lay that on you but I'm getting very bad vibes over this, and they may think it worth putting in safeguards to avoid this sort of thing in the Patch.

I think maybe we should all take a step back here and think about CoG as a ‘Game’ rather than just whats happening in our PBEM game; as I see it the danger is that Gamesmanship could be easily employed in CoG if this capture capital, surrender thing takes hold.

Let’s reiterate the salient point, I used Naples as an example earlier, well lets all go looksee at the map and see what individual players in our game "could" do

Mus fancy Algiers & Oran? Well just start up a War with Spain go capture Algiers and surrender you would get both provinces

Pete, don’t fight any more over Portugal, let Mat take Lisbon, then you hang on for a while and when the time is right drop an army on to Lisbon capture it and surrender, the whole of Portugal is then yours.

Tom, you have a Navy now, your boys fancy a sunshine cruise? Well just load them up and go sail off to the Med declare war on Turkey and drop your lads off in Tripoli, capture it and surrender and you receive Benghazi & Cyrenaica free as a bonus.

Plus of course you all get at least 300 Military upgrade points for surrendering!

Nuff said?

B2 I was going to force you to Liberate Copenhagen as part of the Surrender treaty, but as you seem so desperate to have it I’ll leave it with you.

All the Best
Peter



Kingmaker -> RE: PBEM 1A (5/15/2009 12:21:02 PM)

HiHi

That's how I saw it as well Peter. Where I am confused though, is what happens to the province that France captured? Does France get to keep it if they wanted? Do they need to cede it to Russia? Sweden?

Why Bill! you thinking of Surrendering already!? [X(]

Seriously though, as I understand Franks House rule (this seems admittedly to be imperfect on my part), if I was forced to surrender to you, you would have to give Holstein back to someone (depending on Franks call on this) as you don’t also have the capital, if you went on to capture the Capital then you would get to keep Holstein & capital.

So in order to spare you any great anguish and sorrow guess it would only be polite of me to go recapture Holstein. Thats OK, don’t thank me now, ... later will do fine [:)]

All the Best
Peter



barbarossa2 -> RE: PBEM 1A (5/15/2009 2:10:06 PM)

I see your points Kingmaker.  Anyway, let's let Franck decide.

I also agree that there are some odd things that can crop up. 

I'll just keep taking notes on what should be changed to make it a better game, and like I said, whatever happens with Denmark happens. :)



barbarossa2 -> RE: PBEM 1A (5/15/2009 3:05:29 PM)

It seems when stripping provences from a losing nation, lands controlled for more than 50 years (historically) should cost what normal provences cost. Lets call that variable "pc". Lands controlled for more than 10 years cost 0.66pc . Lands controlled between 6 months and 10 years 0.4pc. And lands controlled for less than 6 months cost 0.3pc.

That would prevent some minor issues from cropping up. My ratios could be off, but I think it is a decent system and it makes a lot of sense to take this stuff into account historically speaking. I still find it interesting that the Congress of Vienna merely put France back in her 1792 boundaries and didn't take more than that for anyone.




Franck -> RE: PBEM 1A (5/15/2009 5:30:31 PM)

Mus IW and Pete have the right of it for my ''house rule'' sorry that I was unable to make it clearer!


IW does raise up a valid point tough. Imagine no one ask Sweden to liberate copenhague. Where is the new Danish capital now? Sure, I fully expect (in this situation) that Copenhague will be ceded back. But this raise a question for later in the game.

Sorry if my answer as been slow, I do not read the forum as much because I'm only sitting in my corner licking my wounds and hoping to be left alone with my HUGE negative glory for a while :)


Franck's house rule:

When a war ends between 2 major nations
(A)Unless the capital of a specific protectorate has been captured all of that protectorate's provinces that were originaly (pre-war) controlled by a player should be ceded back to the original (pre-war) onwner
(B) In the case where a major nations control the capital of a protectorate, the player who conquered the capital gets to keep all provinces that belonged to that protectorate. The player must still cede back any protectorate's provinces for which the protectorate's capital was not conquered!

exemple:
France and Austrian's Italian war:
France took control of the capital of Ventia, Naples and Papal States. By this rule he gets to keep all of the provinces he took there. If France had failed to take the capital of Naples before I surrendered he would have had to give me back all of the provinces he took from Naples. (ie: this is why I barricaded almost all of Naples armed force inside Naples. Hoping for a settlement before France could breach Naples.)

Sweden and the coalition's war:
Sweden took Copenhague. Since this is the capital of Danemark Sweden gets to keep that province after the war (If no one claims it with surrender points). If Sweden at taken control of any other Danish provinces he could also keep them.)


I do not know what to add more, because it is quite obvious to me. But I agree that it might not be so for you. If you want to add something do it so everyone has a better understanding. Or if you have any questions that I might answer to help clears things up please ask. . I admit it does not take into account all special thigs that could happen because this is a house rule (ie France and minors that belongs to Danemark if Copenhague is not ceded.) I guess we should ether agree on a new capital for Danemark (at worst by the roll of a die at best by mutually agreeing). Or decide on the issue once the war is over.



Franck -> RE: PBEM 1A (5/15/2009 5:35:21 PM)

quote:

Seriously though, as I understand Franks House rule (this seems admittedly to be imperfect on my part), if I was forced to surrender to you, you would have to give Holstein back to someone (depending on Franks call on this) as you don’t also have the capital, if you went on to capture the Capital then you would get to keep Holstein & capital.


He would have to give the province back to the protector of the minor. In this case I don't remenber who it is.



Franck -> RE: PBEM 1A (5/15/2009 5:37:33 PM)


And to be honest, IW showed me something that works better (ie instead of ceding the province the player that took control of them should just liberate them. In that way they will automatically revert back to there old protectorate status.)


I will leave the house rule as is. I will change it back to liberate once everyone had time to read it. Then I will paste it in the first post of this thread.



lenin -> RE: PBEM 1A (5/15/2009 6:27:33 PM)

You have a good work-around Franck, but everybody, be aware, if the "Liberating" power doesn't own the whole country, there is a Glory penalty for each province they can't "liberate" because they don't control it. In the other game, France had to liberate Berg to Prussia due to this house rule, but because he didn't own any of the rest of Bavaria, I think we both got hit pretty heavily. Glad this issue is getting sorted out in the patch..

I think "liberate" does this to the entire country, not just the province you select on the mini-map thing.



barbarossa2 -> RE: PBEM 1A (5/15/2009 6:28:20 PM)

Cool Frank. :)  I am fine with that.  Mostly, because I do feel that Norway would have remained independent in a situation where Copenhagen had been conquered.

Just one more question now.  If I had gotten a binding decision when I asked for it, I would have stormed the walls in Jutland and taken it before surrendering.  Is there any remedy for this, or should we just leave everything as is?

My vote for a new, historically realistic capitol would be Christiania (Oslo).

And Jutland also gets a capitol and is independently conquerable.

Frank can do whatever he wants in this case though. I am just giving historical advice.

Anyway, I don't care what happens. I am just taking notes on problems that crop up for something that I am working on.

-B2



Franck -> RE: PBEM 1A (5/15/2009 8:11:24 PM)



I'd say you should try to agree with Russia on this point. Most likely he will ask you to liberate Danemark. At that point you'll be forced to liberate both provinces... Which doesn't change alot if you do or do not get that territory before he forces the peace onto you. But I'd rather not choose in these kind of situation.

I just realized of something tough... I doubt he can just cede that province to you since it's a portectorate. So it's a moot point and there's nothing we can do to rectify the situation I believe.



Kingmaker -> RE: PBEM 1A (5/15/2009 9:20:21 PM)

HiHi

Russias T23 orders sent in.

All the Best
Peter



barbarossa2 -> RE: PBEM 1A (5/15/2009 10:45:35 PM)

I don't think Jutland is worth worrying about. 

Not in this game.  I will start worrying about provences and victory conditions when I play a game with the new patch.

I have a feeling once the patch comes out that this game will be abandoned rather quickly.

And like I said, I was willing to accept the ruling of the court in Vienna, whatever the outcome would be.

P.S. Swedish turn in. :)



Kingmaker -> RE: PBEM 1A (5/17/2009 3:01:55 PM)

HiHi

Russias T24 orders sent in.

All the Best
Peter



barbarossa2 -> RE: PBEM 1A (5/18/2009 9:40:28 PM)

Hey, there is a major flaw in one of the treaty items which is preventing me from making a deal with someone.  I just talked to Eric, and it should be good with the first patch released.  If it is possible to arrange for the same effect in another way, can we do it?  I guess I am asking Franck, since he is the "judge" and I am happy to submit to his rules whatever they may be.



Matto -> RE: PBEM 1A (5/18/2009 10:35:40 PM)

Waiting for Prussian ...



Kingmaker -> RE: PBEM 1A (5/18/2009 11:25:13 PM)

HiHi

Tom may be a tad delayed with his turn as his Lady is bringing home their new Baby either today or tomorrow, so in the meantime we can all wet the Babies head with Cyberpints.

All the Best
Peter



Matto -> RE: PBEM 1A (5/19/2009 8:20:07 AM)

I know, he wrote me ...



Franck -> RE: PBEM 1A (5/19/2009 3:16:46 PM)

Send me a PM or email with what you'd like... 



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