RE: Retreat (Full Version)

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parzival -> RE: Retreat (3/28/2010 7:07:02 AM)

These bulge scenarios are always a bit unrealistic because they dont take into account the very critical fuel problem that the Germans had. The Ardennes offensive couldnt ever had succeeded because they didnt have enough fuel to drive to Antwerpen. Wacht am Rhein was Hitler's daydream he just forced his generals to execute who were not brave enough to resist even though they knew better.




larryfulkerson -> RE: Retreat (3/28/2010 9:45:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: parzival
These bulge scenarios are always a bit unrealistic because they dont take into account the very critical fuel problem that the Germans had. The Ardennes offensive couldnt ever had succeeded because they didnt have enough fuel to drive to Antwerpen. Wacht am Rhein was Hitler's daydream he just forced his generals to execute who were not brave enough to resist even though they knew better.

That's what Steve said. He said they didn't have a prayer of winning. That's caused the August Fog scenario to have a contrived "victory condition" which is that the Allies have to get across the Rhine river to win.




sPzAbt653 -> RE: Retreat (3/28/2010 3:05:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

ORIGINAL: parzival
These bulge scenarios are always a bit unrealistic because they dont take into account the very critical fuel problem that the Germans had. The Ardennes offensive couldnt ever had succeeded because they didnt have enough fuel to drive to Antwerpen. Wacht am Rhein was Hitler's daydream he just forced his generals to execute who were not brave enough to resist even though they knew better.

That's what Steve said. He said they didn't have a prayer of winning. That's caused the August Fog scenario to have a contrived "victory condition" which is that the Allies have to get across the Rhine river to win.


Well put Mr. Fulkerson, and I'll add that Autumn Fog gives the German player a 'realistic hypothetical' chance of reaching Antwerp based on a fact. This 'fact' is noted in the scenario briefing:

German Fuel Supply:
Historically, the Germans had massed over 4,600,000 gallons of fuel, more than enough to keep the offensive moving. However, most of it was held in dumps far back near the Rhine river, and there were inadequate arrangements for moving this fuel supply forward. Consequently, many of the German mobile formations experienced critical fuel shortages, some even being immobilised for lengths of time. In the scenario the German player will experience these shortages thru a random drop in movement allowance. Capture of the large Allied fuel dumps at Liege, Spa, Verviers, Butgenbach or Luxembourg will help to alleviate this situation. These fuel dumps can be evacuated from the area by the Allies.


Historically, OKW knew that Allied air superiority would prevent the accumulated fuel dumps being moved forward early on, and the capture of Allied fuel depots was relied upon to keep the panzers rolling in the inital phase. The scenario provides better hints than the Germans had historically as to where the fuel is. KG Peiper had no idea when they turned west from Stavelot and Trois Ponts that a few miles to the north lay 2,000,000 gallons of US 1st Army fuel.

All of this is taken into account in the scenario and reflected in terms of movement points. While the Allies generally have no problem shifting forces around the map, the Germans have greatly reduced movement, and will even experience movement allowances of '1' on some occasions.

[image]local://upfiles/24850/AC8F5F64FB0E460F895C7F3F5B03AA34.jpg[/image]




parzival -> RE: Retreat (3/28/2010 5:25:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653


quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

ORIGINAL: parzival
These bulge scenarios are always a bit unrealistic because they dont take into account the very critical fuel problem that the Germans had. The Ardennes offensive couldnt ever had succeeded because they didnt have enough fuel to drive to Antwerpen. Wacht am Rhein was Hitler's daydream he just forced his generals to execute who were not brave enough to resist even though they knew better.

That's what Steve said. He said they didn't have a prayer of winning. That's caused the August Fog scenario to have a contrived "victory condition" which is that the Allies have to get across the Rhine river to win.


Well put Mr. Fulkerson, and I'll add that Autumn Fog gives the German player a 'realistic hypothetical' chance of reaching Antwerp based on a fact. This 'fact' is noted in the scenario briefing:

German Fuel Supply:
Historically, the Germans had massed over 4,600,000 gallons of fuel, more than enough to keep the offensive moving. However, most of it was held in dumps far back near the Rhine river, and there were inadequate arrangements for moving this fuel supply forward. Consequently, many of the German mobile formations experienced critical fuel shortages, some even being immobilised for lengths of time. In the scenario the German player will experience these shortages thru a random drop in movement allowance. Capture of the large Allied fuel dumps at Liege, Spa, Verviers, Butgenbach or Luxembourg will help to alleviate this situation. These fuel dumps can be evacuated from the area by the Allies.


Historically, OKW knew that Allied air superiority would prevent the accumulated fuel dumps being moved forward early on, and the capture of Allied fuel depots was relied upon to keep the panzers rolling in the inital phase. The scenario provides better hints than the Germans had historically as to where the fuel is. KG Peiper had no idea when they turned west from Stavelot and Trois Ponts that a few miles to the north lay 2,000,000 gallons of US 1st Army fuel.

All of this is taken into account in the scenario and reflected in terms of movement points. While the Allies generally have no problem shifting forces around the map, the Germans have greatly reduced movement, and will even experience movement allowances of '1' on some occasions.

[image]local://upfiles/24850/AC8F5F64FB0E460F895C7F3F5B03AA34.jpg[/image]



Well that definetely adds more realism into this scenario.

I do not know how much fuel exactly the Germans had reserved but I remember that I once read the Germans had to base their calculations on captured fuel because they didint have it enough themselves. And this is a bit speculative perhaps? But maybe scenario briefing knows better[:)] Anyway I am rather sure that the result u were able to achieve against Elmer is a bit "unrealistic" but maybe it depends more on AI than fuel.




sPzAbt653 -> RE: Retreat (3/28/2010 6:10:28 PM)

quote:

I am rather sure that the result u were able to achieve against Elmer is a bit "unrealistic" but maybe it depends more on AI than fuel.


Agreed, but also keep in mind that Autumn Fog has more German units involved than the historical battle. The AI (and my lack of ability to program it more effectly) is definately an issue. I've played the Allies and had no problem reaching the Rhine against the German PO. Looking at my end game file from this recent play against the Allied PO, I see things it could do but isn't, and I'm not at all sure how to get it going. There are many settings to be considered, and some are a mystery. In some cases the PO has units nowhere near where they are told to be, in other cases some units just sit there turn after turn doing nothing.

Again I'll point out that Autumn Fog isn't a recreation of the historical Bulge, it's a 'what if' the Germans had been more serious about the offensive. I've played all the Bulge scenarios and can't come close to Antwerp, so how about this variant for fun? Also, some of the Germans historically had a thought that they could better use the forces involved to 'hit and run' the Allied line wherever they were weakest, bouncing the Pz Div's all over and creating havoc for the overstretched Allies. Interesting.




larryfulkerson -> reconstitution of the Allied units (5/2/2010 7:49:31 PM)

So um........Steve: Here I have a situation where one of my units was broken by combat into three little pieces one of which was destroyed and won't reconstitute until turn 53 or something like that. If I disband the other two pieces will the unit reconstitute as the full unit or as three little pieces?

[image]local://upfiles/16287/FAB9AE931C4A48AFBA22617D98CDAF23.gif[/image]




sPzAbt653 -> RE: reconstitution of the Allied units (5/3/2010 12:53:35 AM)

Hmm ... I don't recall that I ever tried that, but my guess would be no. I wouldn't think they would recombine while in the reconstruction que.

I know the battalion units in the scenario are a pain to deal with (the 28th, 99th and 106th Inf Div's). They have to be that way in order to cover the front on Dec 16th. The 28th Inf actually should be mostly companies, but that would be ridiculous. I've tried to noodle thru a way around it that would work for the PO and a human player, but haven't come to any solution. If its any consolation, historically the 28th and 106th were mostly wiped out. They formed small cadres from survivors that were attached to other units later in the battle. But in the scenario they all reconstitute. So while being a pain, they are a bonus, even if they are mostly worthless.




Silvanski -> RE: reconstitution of the Allied units (5/4/2010 10:21:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

So um........Steve: Here I have a situation where one of my units was broken by combat into three little pieces one of which was destroyed and won't reconstitute until turn 53 or something like that. If I disband the other two pieces will the unit reconstitute as the full unit or as three little pieces?

I would assume that the entry dates for each piece will be different




larryfulkerson -> Playtest of German PO (7/20/2010 10:57:07 AM)

I had some time on my hands the last couple of days so I started a playtest of Autumn Fog using TOAW to play the German side.

The first 10 AARs are ready to view.  They come in two parts to make download "easier".

Part 1:  http://www.fileshost.com/download.php?id=9B9DA74A1

Part 2: http://www.fileshost.com/download.php?id=BBFC954C1

Here's the movesminimovie showing moves from turns 1 throu 10:

[image]local://upfiles/16287/2D64DED1EA4D4B5EA410FB1D67B3D859.gif[/image]




sPzAbt653 -> RE: Playtest of German PO (7/21/2010 6:16:50 AM)

Hey Mr. Fulkerson, it looks like you've got Elmer pretty well bottled up so far!

v6.0 will be included with the upcoming 3.4. No major changes, mostly some more tinkering with artillery assets:

Added the 170's to Army HQ units, removed artillery from Korp HQ's.
Moved the Pz Bde 150 KG's closer to the Our River.
Combined German RR Art into one unit.
Adjusted and relocated some German non-divisional artillery.
PO adjustments to both sides.

It's interesting to see your action against the PO. As I commented in an earlier post, it's really a trial and error thing. The PO can be set to what looks good, but once it goes into action you can see how the program interprets things. Looking at your AAR you can see a bunch of nice German units hanging back from the front in Tactical Reserve. What? They are set to 'Attack' 'Agressively'! I suppose they might be doing this because they are waiting for a crossing to become available, but I'd rather see them up at the river where they could be menacing the Allied player. We'll see what develops.




larryfulkerson -> RE: Playtest of German PO (7/23/2010 1:17:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

I had some time on my hands the last couple of days so I started a playtest of Autumn Fog using TOAW to play the German side.


The nexst 10 AARs are ready to view.  They come in two parts to make download "easier".

Part 1:  http://www.fileshost.com/download.php?id=F0BA5D731

Part 2: http://www.fileshost.com/download.php?id=92DE4CD01

Here's the movesminimovie showing moves from turns 11 throu 20:

[image]local://upfiles/16287/150095F75D4A4DCF91E86EBFDCFD1EE1.gif[/image]




larryfulkerson -> RE: Playtest of German PO (7/27/2010 4:19:10 AM)

I've finished the next five turns.  The AARs for those turns can probably be found here:

http://www.fileshost.com/download.php?id=07CA01701

Here's the mini-movie of the moves from turns 21 though 25:


[image]local://upfiles/16287/ED7AF2C3C7FD4C62A6BC02F6407061D3.gif[/image]




larryfulkerson -> RE: Playtest of Autumn Fog (7/29/2010 6:34:53 AM)

BeefLeg and I have started a PBEM game of Autumn Fog and Brad ( aka BeefLeg ) is the Allies and I'm the Germans.  So far all that happens is my opening moves in turn 1.  But there's an AAR for this game and you can find the first AAR here:

http://www.fileshost.com/download.php?id=849B889E1






larryfulkerson -> RE: Playtest of Autumn Fog (7/30/2010 10:59:13 PM)

You can find Axis turn 2's AAR here:

http://www.fileshost.com/download.php?id=13EF23431




larryfulkerson -> RE: Playtest of Autumn Fog (8/4/2010 11:37:14 AM)

The AAR's for turns 3 and 4 can be found here:

http://www.fileshost.com/download.php?id=653CA7171

The Germans are running wild in some places on the map.  It's a sight to behold.




larryfulkerson -> RE: Playtest of Autumn Fog (8/8/2010 3:59:16 AM)

You can find the turn 5 AAR here:

http://www.fileshost.com/download.php?id=AC4D977F1

I told Brad that if it wasn't fun for him anymore that we could switch sides.  Does that invalidate the playtest, Steve?  Just wondering.




sPzAbt653 -> RE: Playtest of Autumn Fog (8/8/2010 4:17:43 AM)

It doesn't look so bad for the Allies, they still haven't given up any of the important bridges. The penetration into the Hohes Vehn west of Monschau is disturbing, but I doubt the Germans have significant units to exploit, and the Vesdre River makes a good fall back position in the area. Stick with it if you can, we still haven't seen any German player get across the Meuse against a human.




larryfulkerson -> RE: Playtest of Autumn Fog (8/8/2010 6:10:18 AM)

Here's the mini-movie showing the first 5 turns of the game between Brad and I

[image]local://upfiles/16287/4462BB865494443DA58495E4905BED62.gif[/image]

Here's a link to download a closeup of the front lines as of the end of turn 5:

http://www.adrive.com/public/1cd4f1c6a54ce071d3c5d7a9badcec3e03fdc2168437a295b8f648e18a21cd2c.html




larryfulkerson -> RE: Playtest of Autumn Fog (8/9/2010 1:54:50 AM)

I parked the turn 6 AAR for the Autumn Fog game between Brad and I at this location:

http://www.fileshost.com/download.php?id=15035A6E1

The Germans are making gains faster than before and the Allied reinforcements haven't shown up yet in the south part of the map.  The Axis is on the outskirts of Bastogne already.




larryfulkerson -> RE: Playtest of Autumn Fog (8/17/2010 4:31:50 AM)

AARs for turns 7 through 9 can be found here:

http://www.fileshost.com/download.php?id=658DBAEF1

Here's the mini-movie showing turns 1 thru 9 :


[image]local://upfiles/16287/BD263BF5570B4FC895DAD2A0ED3DEC0D.gif[/image]




larryfulkerson -> RE: Playtest of Autumn Fog (8/20/2010 5:50:31 PM)

Here's the turn 10 AAR:

http://www.fileshost.com/download.php?id=B29922F91

The Germans are running amuck.




larryfulkerson -> RE: Playtest of Autumn Fog (8/21/2010 10:04:21 AM)

Here's the turn 11 AAR:

http://www.fileshost.com/download.php?id=ABB466C91

Is anybody reading these things?  Just wondering.




sPzAbt653 -> RE: Playtest of Autumn Fog (8/21/2010 3:07:39 PM)

quote:

Is anybody reading these things? Just wondering.


Judging by the number of downloads, I am the only one. I do have an abnormal interest in the scenario. Something about downloading the file must discourage people from looking.




larryfulkerson -> RE: Playtest of Autumn Fog (8/21/2010 4:58:44 PM)

Here's the front lines as of the end of turn 11:

[img]http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/12/14/2688812//57_27_11_end.GIF[/img]




larryfulkerson -> RE: Playtest of Autumn Fog (8/22/2010 5:19:49 AM)

Here's the AAR for turn 12:

http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/12/14/2688812//AAR of turn 12.zip




larryfulkerson -> RE: Playtest of Autumn Fog (8/24/2010 7:15:50 AM)

Here's the AAR for turn 13:

http://www.fileshost.com/download.php?id=922A17DB1

It seems that the Allies don't have any units to stop the advance of the Germans in the middle  of the map.  So they are running rampant.




larryfulkerson -> RE: Playtest of Autumn Fog (8/26/2010 12:42:37 PM)

Here's the AAR for turn 14:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/vh3x0gplar5lxl0/AAR%20of%20turn%2014.zip




larryfulkerson -> RE: Playtest of Autumn Fog (8/30/2010 6:23:48 AM)

Here's the AAR for turn 15

http://www.mediafire.com/file/sfvl868s9evx56d/AAR%20of%20turn%2015.zip

I'm getting a lot of Allied interdiction so obviously he's received his planes already.  I haven't seen any bridge bombing....I hope Brad hasn't forgotten he can do that.  I'm reaching the Muse River in a few places and I'm not sure if I should advance past it or not.  Movement west of the Muse might trigger the 30 Corps or something.




larryfulkerson -> RE: Playtest of Autumn Fog (9/1/2010 4:02:49 AM)

deleted.






larryfulkerson -> RE: Playtest of Autumn Fog (9/1/2010 4:03:11 AM)

Brad says work has gotten imposible so he's having to drop out at this point.  So I've started a game of Autum Fog using version 3.4 Beta TOAW III and I'm doing the Germans as PO and here's the first five AAR's:

http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/12/14/2688812//Autum Fog german PO AARs 1 - 5.zip








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