RE: Price (Full Version)

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Sarkus -> RE: Price (4/6/2010 7:53:03 PM)

As another wargamer who started with boards, I have to say that price does impact my decisions on what to buy and as a result there are some Matrix titles that I would have bought at a lower price. The price point for this game isn't really an issue for me, though given that you have to own the previous title to play it, that is a pretty high barrier to entry for someone new to the hobby. What high prices do is take someone who might buy a game on a whim and make them really reconsider it, and that is where new gamers come from. I've never purchased the WitP titles for the simple reason that I don't know if I'd like it and thereforce can't justify that price. On the other hand, I'll probably pay a high price for the Russia game from Grigsby and co. because I played previous games in the series and know what I'm getting.

I don't know for sure if across the board cheaper prices would make the genre bigger or not, but I do know that most of the "big" computer wargames in recent years have been priced at $50 or less.



TheWombat_matrixforum -> RE: Price (4/6/2010 8:17:43 PM)

Sure, once you are "in the fold" as a grog, price matters--there are a lot of cool games here I don't own because I'm not made of money. So lower prices might indeed improve sales, but only within the population of people already committed to playing wargames. That's not really expanding revenue, it's just spreading it around differently. But sure, I'd love to see cheaper games, just not at the expense of people being able to actually make them. I rather doubt that even Australians would deliberately overcharge just to see us squirm--I suspect the pricing is determined fairly rationally.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarkus

As another wargamer who started with boards, I have to say that price does impact my decisions on what to buy and as a result there are some Matrix titles that I would have bought at a lower price. The price point for this game isn't really an issue for me, though given that you have to own the previous title to play it, that is a pretty high barrier to entry for someone new to the hobby. What high prices do is take someone who might buy a game on a whim and make them really reconsider it, and that is where new gamers come from. I've never purchased the WitP titles for the simple reason that I don't know if I'd like it and thereforce can't justify that price. On the other hand, I'll probably pay a high price for the Russia game from Grigsby and co. because I played previous games in the series and know what I'm getting.

I don't know for sure if across the board cheaper prices would make the genre bigger or not, but I do know that most of the "big" computer wargames in recent years have been priced at $50 or less.



Rosseau -> RE: Price (4/6/2010 8:56:14 PM)

Many intelligent and incisive comments here. I am looking forward to buying the Panther Bulge game, Storm over the Pacific, and the East front opus. I already have all other SSG games and love them. But when I can get Bulge or SotP for $10 more than AtD, I just can't justify the latter.



V22 Osprey -> RE: Price (4/6/2010 9:02:00 PM)



The best gaming system in the world is nothing to me if it only last a few hours, especially if there are other systems almost as good that offer many more scenarios and a Battle Generator with full editors for the same price.

I get games where I shelf a game because I'm tired of playing the game system, NOT because the game ran out of content.

Because of that, I don't think I can pull the trigger on any SSG game. Since there is no demo, I truly can't tell if the game system is THAT GOOD that the system itself can make up for the lack of content.

I think SSG should do the HPS approach. Like if they made easy-to-use editors like John Tiller's games and offered smaller scenarios that cover specific actions of the battle, including Hypothetical situations.



JudgeDredd -> RE: Price (4/6/2010 9:22:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LarryP

Judge; I remember when you bought this game, I was watching you closely to see when you would throw in the towel. You came back with nothing but praises for it. That's when I thought I had better get this when more scenarios came out. [:D]

I was fully expectant to regret my purchase. I had recently been burned with Carriers at War from SSG. With CaW I simply thought the gaming was too simplistic and there wasn't enough content. I had also bought (many years ago) Korsun Pocket and dropped it like a brick inside of an hour...I simply couldn't get into it. I was then shrugging my shoulders when I heard Kharkov had one scenario...there was no way I was buying it. Then I saw the price and it reinforced my decision not to buy it.

I can't remember what happened...who it was that was talking about the game, but I got interested in the AOs (Areas of Operation). I then started reading and realised these were elements that would make the game replayable. I took the plunge. It was a risky plunge as I had already experienced two games from the company and didn't enjoy them and this game was going to cost more than £50!

When I got it, I decided to learn it through the tutorials and it just clicked. The game engine. The graphics. The sounds. Everything was just right. I'm going to get back into it now AtD2 is released and buy AtD2 next month

But it's each to their own...I wouldn't pay the money for WitP:AE because a) I think it's too expensive and b) I'm sure I wouldn't enjoy the depth. Uncommon Valor is enough of that system to keep me busy.

I just like the look and feel of the SSG games now. I think AtD2 will be worth the cash. Many other people will disagree.

Personally, I think Matrix should NOT have made it an add on...it's just too much money for a new gamer (and even more seasoned SSG gamers) to layout on the original game and the AtD2 expansion. Personally I think it will hurt their sales and the only people likely to buy AtD2 are people like me who already have Kharkov and die hards of the battle...and even they are going to be a tough ask. But I expect Matrix know the potential sales market better than my gut instinct.

I'm looking forward to it [&o]



LarryP -> RE: Price (4/6/2010 9:32:10 PM)

I also have Korsun Pocket. I too dropped it but it took me a while longer than one week. I also bought the Dnepr add on for Korsun but it was inexpensive. Then I bought BiN and BiI. Good games. Also bought Battlefront which needed the AI of Kharkov.

Like you said, getting into the series now requires buying both games, and it now being an expansion requiring the original, can't do it. It's $90 for the download only. My gosh, well over $100 for the physicals.



ComradeP -> RE: Price (4/6/2010 9:35:03 PM)

quote:

I think SSG should do the HPS approach. Like if they made easy-to-use editors like John Tiller's games and offered smaller scenarios that cover specific actions of the battle, including Hypothetical situations.


For starters: the interface in SSG games and the editor is more user friendly than the interface of a HPS Panzer Campaigns title. Splitting up a scenario makes sense if you insist to create a game where you play major battles on a battalion scale and have thousands of counters as a result, but it doesn't make much sense if the game has about a 1000 units or around 500.

Personally, I'm not inclined to buy any HPS PzC game as I really don't see the need to play a battle at battalion scale if you can cut the units by about 1/3 by using a regimental scale. There are obviously a lot of people who enjoy that, but I'm not one of them. To each his own.



V22 Osprey -> RE: Price (4/6/2010 11:19:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

quote:

I think SSG should do the HPS approach. Like if they made easy-to-use editors like John Tiller's games and offered smaller scenarios that cover specific actions of the battle, including Hypothetical situations.


For starters: the interface in SSG games and the editor is more user friendly than the interface of a HPS Panzer Campaigns title. Splitting up a scenario makes sense if you insist to create a game where you play major battles on a battalion scale and have thousands of counters as a result, but it doesn't make much sense if the game has about a 1000 units or around 500.

Personally, I'm not inclined to buy any HPS PzC game as I really don't see the need to play a battle at battalion scale if you can cut the units by about 1/3 by using a regimental scale. There are obviously a lot of people who enjoy that, but I'm not one of them. To each his own.


For Starters: I've used the SSG games and editors and let me to you they aren't best interface around. The John Tiller interface is WAY easier to get than any SSG game. I couldn't even find any documentation on using the editor. You say "more user friendly" but that is certainly not what I've seen personally and not what I've heard from other people. Plus, I never said anything about being "inclined" to buy anything. My point is that HPS isn't a large company at all either, and if they can provide 30+ scenarios per title SSG certainly can.



e_barkmann -> RE: Price (4/7/2010 12:53:32 AM)

Games that include extraordinary amounts of scenarios are normally supplied by third party user enthusiasts; it's the only way to get the numbers up.

ATD II was designed by Ian Trout, game engine adjustments were made by Roger Keating, and the game was playtested by both over a couple of years and further adjustments made along the way.  This kind of brain bank is hard to replicate with user designed scenarios. 

The editor does come with documentation and there are separate tutorials for both AOs and the AI.  I would agree there is a learning curve to the editor but then again, you are not likely to produce 'cookie cutter' scenarios when you're dealing with hand painted maps, an AI that gives a good game and the ability to simulate just about any WWII conflict accurately.

cheers Chris

 



Tempest_slith -> RE: Price (4/7/2010 1:53:12 AM)

A game's value is measured by how low the cost/total hours played winds up. Any fan of the Kharkov engine will put in so many hours of play time with ATD2 that, even at $40, this ratio will approach zero.

I played non-stop games during playtest with Roger for months and it's never gotten old. And that was only playing the Soviet side, so, with the different tactics and style required, playing the Axis will be like having a similiar but different new game.



tide1527 -> RE: Price (4/7/2010 1:57:29 AM)

The HPS Panzer Campaigns do have alot of scenarios but for the most part it's two people making the scenarios for each game. You will see three or four people listed as scenario developers but only two work on the majority for each game. I suppose SSG could do that but it seems they want to leave it up to the gamers to make scenarios.



V22 Osprey -> RE: Price (4/7/2010 2:08:59 AM)

Well I may eventually take the plunge and get one of these games. 2 months allowance for 1 scenario[X(].....tough to swallow but I think I will give it try. If it changed Judge Dredd's mind then it can't be bad.With you guys defending the game so much I thinks it's worth a look....though that is expected if you criticize a game in it's own forum.[:'(]



tide1527 -> RE: Price (4/7/2010 2:42:25 AM)

Dredd is a hard sell. we have both seen his posts in the past [;)] Cash is always an issue but if you think you might like the game in the future go for it. I played around with it last night and for a couple of hours today and it is as good as claimed.



LarryP -> RE: Price (4/7/2010 2:47:13 AM)

How does it compare to Battlefront? I know, bad comparison but it's the closest game I have to it.



Fred98 -> RE: Price (4/7/2010 3:16:30 AM)

Well its something like comparing Excel 1998 with Excel 2003

They look and feel much the same except once you migrate to Excel 2003 you will not go back to Excel 1998

-





parusski -> RE: Price (4/7/2010 3:34:17 AM)

Thanks hartwig.modrow. I am afraid my tirade shows too little logical structure. In 10 years I have posted less than 400 times. The main reason for so few posts is I don't get into the odd shouting matches and I try to point out the good about Matrix. For me WITP was a complete, utter waste of time. But it was an investment. We are discussing pc games here, not cars or new houses. I DO UNDERSTAND individual money issues, mainly where the wife is concerned. Surely there are enough people in the states who want and can afford the ATD add-on. As for Europe, well your European Union in its infinite wisdom has the great VAT. It can make ATD a little more pricey, but for those who can afford it why not buy it. ATD was a great game, I still play the original.

JudgeDredd you stole my brilliant argument about cost per hour of fun. Great point. I just recently threw $35US into the gutter with the purchase of the Blu-ray version of The Wolfman. That's 2 hours viewing, so $10 bucks an hour to be bored. If I get drunk and watch it again someday, then my price per entertainment hour falls to $5.00. WOW, what a bargain, wait I forgot the cost of the liquor I would need to actually watch the movie again. I digress. Many, many hours of fun will be had for a price ranging from $40US to about £48 in the UK. Your cost per hour of pleasure will surely be lower than my cost per hour of torture watching that stupid movie(I'll let you know how I feel about later).

Before anyone jumps down my throat that they are not in a financial position to buy the game, well guess what. I can't afford something I want. I do not have the means to buy a Sea Ray 580 Sundancer yacht. So I plan to raise hell on Sea Ray's website about the price. Just a couple years ago I agonized over every single game released. I had to make important decisions to spend just $30. Luckily things have gotten somewhat better over the last few years. So please don't imply that if I can afford the game I do not understand your anguish if you can't. If you can't buy it, and want it, then wait, save, whatever. Or do what I am doing about my yacht-do without.




Adam Parker -> RE: Price (4/7/2010 4:39:23 AM)

First Off:

The promise of the discount in 2008 is not a contract unless people can prove they bought Kharkov on the belief that would be getting ATD2 there and then.


Second Off:

LOL that Husky appears to be corrupted! It was the only thing I managed to test for SSG in the ATD2 release and it was working fine. Do wait for it to be fixed guys - it's a great improvement on the scenario from Battles In Italy. Hugely enjoyable. I regret not being able to test anything further for SSG.


Third Off:

Norton won't let me update Kharkov - it thinks that Matrix is a hugely suspect security risk. And I tend to agree with them [:D][;)][:D]

Ease up guys - it's a cheap new game that works... will work... just enjoy.


PS: I hope that Troutie has recovered well and fully mended up! Man I'm full of tpyos today [:'(]



V22 Osprey -> RE: Price (4/7/2010 7:09:46 AM)

Argh, this same debate happens EVERY time a new SSG game comes out. It would be easier if they would just add in a few extra scenarios and call it a day.[:'(]



JudgeDredd -> RE: Price (4/7/2010 7:29:00 AM)

Word of warning to any people here - I know that I am generally thought of as a "hard sell" and that "if Judge likes the game, it's got to be worth a punt"...but two things if I may...

1. I have a relatively comfortable disposable income - I wouldn't necessarily class myself as a hard sell because I'm a gaming ho...I love new stuff. But the trick is to see what I say two weeks down the road...if I'm still playing it and still like it, then two weeks into the purchase is where you'll find the answer
2. With point 1 in mind, remember we're all different. I didn't "get" Korsun Pocket. Chucked it after an hour. Somehow (maybe it was just extra money that month) someone persuaded me to buy Kharkov. I remember saying "Ok - I'll take the plunge - but if I don't find what your telling me or if I don't "get" it, it's the last game I buy from SSG"...and I bought it and "got" it. But that doesn't mean that kind of turn around is going to happen to anyone else....

Just a word of caution - everyones opinions will differ. I understand how much the gaming dollar means to people.

I can only give my own personal views. My initial views are generally like most peoples "WOW...Shiny New". Two weeks down the road is when you would get my true impressions. I'm generally not posting about the game then...I'm either playing it or I've moved on. If anyone really wanted to know what I thought about a game that I bought and I'm not posting on the forums...pm me and I'll tell you honestly what I think of it.

I still say Kharkov is a great game. I played some last night and it brought the memories flooding back of some desperate defending and hole plugging.



Hexagon -> RE: Price (4/7/2010 9:49:29 AM)

Well, many people talk about relation between price and game hours, well, i see it correct but not all because for me are another little but very important point... custom scenarios, here i can say that from Battlefront to Kharkov SSG start a decline in the number of custom scens, very few but very interesting and good "amateur" jobs (i only have Kharkov but know people who have other SSG games) but this is not the only problem, you talk about HPS games and i have many of their games (NAP, PzC, MC, EAB) and the number of scens compared with SSG is like compare a P-51 (one of the best planes in WW2) with a Mig-21 (not the best plane but superior to P-51), for me Kharkov is a good game but is only one scen, you can add many variants but the scale prevents an important part of replay value of the game, move troops at lower scale in a bigger map have more options and situations.

I see SSG games interesting games, i like it (not all features like the step system or the direct use of artillery because as a friend says is better the BiN or BiI system) but find that their replay value depends of scen creator comunity and now this is smaller and many interesting scens are missing (i know that for all previous games at regimental scale are a version of the Bulge scen that was a free game but for Kharkov is MIA).

What i want say??? price to high for games where their "life" depend of modders and compare with for example HPS games the price and number of scens is... well, you know, of course, HPS games arent perfect, i want buy it by DD and have a map editor but even with all this problems i pay 24-26 euros for a HPS game in a CD box, have one battle/campaign but lots of scens.

PD: if i buy AtD2 could be in a matrix holidays sale i do it with Kharkov (buy it in Cristhmas) and can do again with AtD2, one thing is like something and another very different is pay a price that i consider excesive, i have the money to buy now AtD2 but in wargames world are more options and cheaper (waiting FoG SoA add-on) [:D]



sliver_bullet -> RE: Price (4/7/2010 10:43:25 AM)

SSG Mistake
Why keep quiet about promise that cannot be fulfill and not bother to comment when post about discount has been recently brought up in their own forum

Matrix Mistake
Allowing such "promise" to be printed in a Kharkov Manual ??

Customer Mistake
Why buy when you are not happy with the price ?



Lützow -> RE: Price (4/7/2010 10:59:55 AM)

The whole discussion here did not happen, if Kharkov/AtD got delivered with 8-10 scenarios (not considering the user created ones).

So when SSG was able to release more comprehensively games in the past, why their recent spin-offs are so small in terms of content? Why they simply don't rework scenarios from older titles into the new engine and call it a 'Battlefront II'? This would ensure a win-win situation with higher sales numbers and satisfied customers.



ComradeP -> RE: Price (4/7/2010 11:09:42 AM)

I have 11 scenarios in my Kharkov scenarios folder, and most of them are available to the public.

quote:

I've used the SSG games and editors and let me to you they aren't best interface around. The John Tiller interface is WAY easier to get than any SSG game. I couldn't even find any documentation on using the editor.


I've been using the DB series editor and the more modern editors for years now, and I really don't see what you're talking about. There's an editor manual shipped with every game starting with BiN, so I'm not sure how you missed that either.



Hexagon -> RE: Price (4/7/2010 11:47:26 AM)

11??? if i dont count the scens included in the 1.20 patch (2 new scens... well, 4 if you count Paula, Konrad and other early variant) i have 2 custom maps "Soltsty" and "Gothic line", are another 2 scens in the way, "Iskra" and "Borodino" and other that dont know exactly in what status is "Berlin".

When i talk about excesive price i evaluate the euro/hour but of course the scens included, for example i read that original AtD have 49 turns and this have 20-30 (correct me if i am wrong)... why not add the 49 turns campaign??? I know that do scens with programmed AI is hard but after learn to play the game people who continue playing VS AI are few and here the lack of scens (variants arent really "full" scens) are an important problem.

Talking about editing... SSG are hard to edit and i know people who try it but leave because find it impossible.

PD: i dont like the Atd2 non add-on price, another question is if AtD2 includes 1 or more extra campaings then 30 euros could be a more interesting price.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Price (4/7/2010 12:55:25 PM)

It seems to me that there are a few key points here, let me sum things up from my perspective.

1. There was a post in 2008 that was also included in the manual addendum that stated there would be a discount. Both SSG and Matrix forgot about that post, but we did attempt to do a discount, which turned out to be logistically impossible due to incomplete records of ATD sales. We then set the price based on the fact that we could not offer a discount. In other words, if there had been a discount those of you who own the original ATD from years ago would have likely ended up paying the same price as the base price is now.

2. From a release content standpoint, ATD has more content than Kharkov, despite being an "expansion". SSG included the ATD improvements as well as several free scenarios in a free Kharkov update which owners of Kharkov can enjoy whether or not they purchase ATD. This is a goodwill gesture to Kharkov owners and part of our message to you the customer that the Kharkov engine is indeed the future path of SSG releases and scenarios.

3. From a marketing standpoint, it is hard with both Kharkov and ATD to overcome the "it's just one scenario" argument. The fact is that this one scenario in each case, with mystery variants and different areas of operation, would be packaged in other game releases as a dozen separate scenario variants. The variants in these SSG releases are built into the one "mega-scenario" rather than being separated out individually. This makes it harder to explain the amount of content to customers. Once they play it, they generally realize that there is good value in there, but it's hard to get that point across if you focus on a simple scenario count and it's also hard (unless you're familiar with SSG) to adequately explain the care they put into a mega-scenario like ATD with all the variants. Their releases are generally in the very top group of our releases in terms of quality and challenge because of the amount of time they spend testing, re-testing, polishing and balancing. The AI in these games at the Computer+ setting can beat me, which is something I cannot say of most wargames.

We all regret greatly the miscommunication about the discount and we will try to make that up to you all in the next release. But for this one, I think it's time to look at what it offers and realize that it is actually worth the price and when compared to other SSG releases, it's one of the better ones in terms of content and wargaming challenge.




Adam Parker -> RE: Price (4/7/2010 1:18:00 PM)

I still don't know what all the fuss is about:

1. To play AtD2 you have to already own SSG's Kharkov.

2. Today owners of Kharkov have been given the full Invasion of Sicily (Husky) game; The Battle of Kirovograd originally featured in Korsun Pocket; and a scenario I haven't come across before with SSG being the 1945 offensive againsit Budapest (Operation Konrad) for free.

3. It is not news that SSG does not follow the HPS approach of releasing 30 scenarios in a game (being breakdowns of each campagin) and in the past I've been a vocal critic of this practice in the "value for money" debate. But this debate occured 2-5 years ago now. If you're in the market for AtD2 and already own SSG's Kharkov then you've moved on past this debate.

4. AtD2 replaces the original AtD which had a lousy AI and was an add-on to a long gone title Korsun Pocket, which had a lousy AI too. AtD2 offers gamers Army Group Center's entire 1941 advance towards Moscow - and going on what I've seen of Husky 2, its AI should now kick ass.

5. Although I was invited by SSG to help test AtD2 and Husky I only got so far as the latter - as life's priorities intervened. I have no other association with this game and heck, expect that I'll need to pay to download AtD2 myself if I want to give it a whirl. That's only fair given the time that I could devote - but based on what I saw with Husky 2 - it's a beaut! It beat my Patton and Montgomery cold.

Therefore in summary. If you want to play Husky, 1/2 of Korsun Pocket now updated and the equivalent main scenario of HPS's Panzer Campaigns Budapest '45 - they're yours for free right now.

If you finally want to be able to play the main scenario equivalent of HPS's Panzer Campaigns Smolensk '41 with a working AI - then pay $40 for it. That's in addition to being able to play the main scenario in HPS's Panzer Campaigns Kharkov 42 having already owned SSG's Kharkov.

Now what Matrix and SSG should do, is work out a combined Kharkov + AtD2 deal for new gamers. Yeah, in life loyal customers do miss out - just ask my cable company with its Welcome to Cable deals - screw others who've already paid for their installation 10 years ago.



JudgeDredd -> RE: Price (4/7/2010 1:39:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker
...just ask my cable company with its Welcome to Cable deals - screw others who've already paid for their installation 10 years ago.

I expect many people suffer from this! [:'(]



Hexagon -> RE: Price (4/7/2010 1:49:14 PM)

2 points.

1- if AtD2 have "more content" than Kharkov (when i buy Kharkov i now the lack of standar scens but espect an expansion/add-on but at expansion/add-on price, dont remember now the AtD price but was inferior to 20 euros SURE) WHY you dont sell it as stand alone game with a full game price??? if i only want AtD2 (not my case) can buy AtD2 and dont need buy Kharkov but now if somebody want do it need buy 2 games (price of AtD2 is a FULL game price) for example i pay 23,99 EUR for Kharkov in last sale in Matrixgames (dont include VAT) a good price for me because i expect an expansion/add-on that for me cost in the worst situation... 20 euros without discount (see the FoG expansions/army list prices for example) but hey, i find an expansion for 30 euros and some confusing arguments that say that an announced expansion/add-on isnt an expansion/add-on, it is a full game but with no full game price [&:][&:][&:] i am not a baby, if i hear EXPANSION and find an non expansion price dont talk me of full games that are not full games and need another game to work [:-]

2-HPS has another type of games, another way of the wargamer, dont like all their ideas BUT they dont do strange maneuvers, i know what they have and at what price, they do discounts first days of the game and post the time range (i dont buy in HPS place but i want note this) they dont call their games expansions/add-ons and you dont need buy Smolensks to play rest of PzC games for example.

Dont understand me bad, i like Kharkov and find AtD2 interesting but for me dont cost 30 euros because is an expansion/add-on and say that the cost is because the add-on is like a new game BUT need Kharkov is a little...

PD: i dont find the original prices of Korsun and AtD but i remember that AtD dont cost 30 euros.



Arckon -> RE: Price (4/7/2010 3:42:46 PM)

To be perfectly honest before this came out I was expecting it to be $10 - $15 cheaper than the original Kharkov. So when I saw $45AU I didn't hesitate to purchase, I know the quality, and I know it has one of the best AI's currently available in turn-based games.

I very much enjoy the HPS games, I own quite a few of their WWII and ACW games but honestly their AI is hopeless, and I haven't played their games in aprox 2 years as I have not had the time for PBEM for about 2 years.

If I did not already own Kharkov (being familiar with SSG's earlier games) I would buy that now, have Kharkov, Husky and Konrad with very good AI which would keep me engaged for quite a few months and then a few months down the track buy ATD, but then as I said in my first sentence I was expecting this to be priced at $40 - $45 anyway based on earlier discounts Matrix have offered on other titles like Crown of Glory Empororers edition etc.



Henri -> RE: Price (4/7/2010 8:08:25 PM)

Since I am somewhat of a "different" user, let me chime in again.

I finally bought Kharkov yesterday, but not ATD2 (yet). I would have preferred that ATD2 be sold as a stand-alone game, and would have bought it immediately based on the fun I had with the original ATD, one of my all-time favorites.

I bought WITP AE despite knowing that I would probably never play it fully (and I haven't after over a year), because such monster games boggles my mind and I end up just gazing at the map with my brain in neutral.

I bought Korsun Pocket and never played it, but I needed it to pay ATD. (I also don't like ames with mostly stationary front lines, preferring maneuver games like CEAW or Advanced Tactics, both of which I have played extensively.

Although cost is not that big an issue in isolated terms, note that there is hardly a week that goes by when a major new game doesn't come out. So I buy games like World of Warcraft, all the variations of Total War, the John Tiller games, all variations of Europa Universalis, HOI3, SC, SC2 etc and so on and so on. I have been thinking about buying Distant Worlds, but the supply problems have kept me away so far. In sum, I could easily spend $100 a month or more on games (and often do), but still, I have to think about getting my money's worth and $90 is a lot of money (my money's worth is one to two weeks of gameplay and I often get bored a lot faster than that).

Henri



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