RE: Price

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Lützow -> RE: Price (4/9/2010 12:04:58 PM)
Bundling Kharkov + AtDII for 20 bucks more and giving in return $20,- rabate to owners of the predecessor had led to less debates and altogether higher revenue. Like SSG handled it now, it's a psychological barrier for everybody interested in the latter title, because he has to do acquire two games, and it also leaves a stale taste for players hoping for a cheaper expansion. Yes, AtD is worth the extra price, but many potential customers probably won't give it a chance due to aforementioned reasons.

Henri -> RE: Price (4/9/2010 12:52:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jeffreys Consequently the preceeding game became somewhat out of date, so that by now there are 4 different older game engines, all of them significantly different from the current Kharkov engine. so what difference does it make? If I didn't buy the original game, it is because I didn't want to play it, so whether it is out of date or not is relevant only to those who already own the previous game, b ut not to me. Henri

Fred98 -> RE: Price (4/9/2010 1:26:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jmlima You do not get a complete game in Across the Dnepr. You get an expansion that requires another game to be played. And this, for a price nearing the full game. There was once a game named Advanced Squad Leader and Avalon Hill used the same business model. The game was so popular that some players bought every expansion! -

Pete AU -> RE: Price (4/9/2010 2:33:51 PM)
I'm one of them [8D]

e_barkmann -> RE: Price (4/9/2010 2:43:05 PM)
still a sucker for ASL - it's a lifestyle :-/

mariovalleemtl -> RE: Price (4/9/2010 3:27:16 PM)
Maybe I should go on www.ferrari.com/ and tell then there car are to expansive. Hope they could do somethink to.

jeffreysutro@jeffreysutro.com -> RE: Price (4/9/2010 5:39:03 PM)
Though I didn't mention it in my previous post (which was getting far too long) it is certainly true that for the buyer who is only interested in the one battle/campaign contained in Across the Dneper a stand alone game would have been better. For the more "hard core" fans of the "Decisive Battles" series the single core engine with a choice of expansions is decidedly superior. It is also cheaper, since a stand alone game would be priced significantly higher then the expansions, probably at least $60. Of course then people would be complaining (as was the case when Kharkov was released) that the price was too high for "one single scenerio" [:)] (though it is actually a single battle with a number of "what if" variants included; the sort of thing that most companies would probably refer to as seperate scenerios). I will note that if the current SSG system had been instituted at the time they released Battles in Normandy and subsequent games they would now have a single gaming system with 5 or so seperate additional battles avialable, all of which would be current and up to date and still producing revenue for SSG. That might even allow them to sell them at lower prices, since volume would be higher, and all the products would be producing an ongoing revenue stream. Ah well, better late than never. [;)] [8\|] As an aside, I'm curious if Tiller has improved his AIs in his current products. My only exposure to them was playing the old Talonsoft game Battleground Gettysburg, which I believe was a Tiller game (please correct me if I'm wrong). The AI in that game was so bad that I stopped playing it despite the fact that it was otherwise an excellent game. That was 15 years ago however, so it seems to me likely that he's improved his AIs since then. The quality of the AI is quite important to me in considering the purchase of any game since my schedule, and my short attention span, mean that I only play against the AI.

Henri -> RE: Price (4/9/2010 6:29:40 PM)
The Tiller Games (at least all the ones following Smolensk) have been upgraded to the latest engine, with ijmproved AI and features. FWIW I finally relented today and bought AtD2, after having bought Kharkov 2 days ago, somewhat justifying the Matrix policy (but not everyone can afford to buy all the games I buy). I have bought Battles in Normandy and never played it (except maybe for looking at the setup), I bought Korsun and never played it (but I did play AtD a lot, which is probably why I bought Korsun), I bought Battles in Italy and never played it except for a few moves from Husky and the free Typhoon scenario. The same goes for most of the Tiller games - I bought them and except for Smolensk, never played them. Maybe I am not a typical wargamer, despite having been at it since the early sixties, but the reason I don't play most of those games much is mostly because I prefer battles of maneuver over slugfests with mostly fixed front lines or battles of attrition. So although Korsun Pocket is a battle of encirclement, it is mostly a slugfest which doesn't jibe well with my preferences. This is also why I liked Tiller's Smolensk and the original AtD so much. The fact that AH's The Russian Campaign was by far the all-time favorite board wargame of all wargamers indicates that I am not alone.And it may have something to do with my being a chess player, where "the threat is more dangerous than its realization". So it is unclear where Kharkov will fit in this scheme of things: it is a back-and-forth game where both sides are fighting against time, and there may be some amount of maneuvering, but on the other hand fixed areas of operation may reduce this freedom somewhat.We will see... Henri PS. There is a story about World Chess Champion Emmanuel Lasker, where he put an unlit cigar into his mouth during a tournament, and his opponent called the tournament director to complain, so Lasker put it away. A few minutes later, he took it out again and put it into his mouth, so his opponent called the tournament director again. "But the cigar is not lit", said the tournament director, "so he is not smoking". "No, replied the opponent, but he is THREATENING to light it, and in chess the threat is more dangerous than its realization!"

jmlima -> RE: Price (4/9/2010 6:34:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Joe 98 quote: ORIGINAL: jmlima You do not get a complete game in Across the Dnepr. You get an expansion that requires another game to be played. And this, for a price nearing the full game. There was once a game named Advanced Squad Leader and Avalon Hill used the same business model. The game was so popular that some players bought every expansion! And there is now a game called ATS whose every historical module is a stand alone game , within a system. So what? (BTW, didn't Avalon Hill close?... I wonder if it was their visionary business model...)

Challerain -> RE: Price (4/9/2010 7:08:38 PM)
No, it was the publishing side of their parent company and some bad magazines that forced Monarch Avalon out of business. And with ATS don't you need rules which do not come with the modules? Apples to oranges, but Bioware's new RPG, Dragon Age, was released in November for 49.99. The first expansion came out a few weeks ago for 39.99 and it was far shorter. And even more apples to oranges, people put out lots of money for a boardgame that covers only one battle......

jmlima -> RE: Price (4/9/2010 7:22:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Challerain ... And with ATS don't you need rules which do not come with the modules? ... No.

Jalla -> RE: Price (4/9/2010 10:30:16 PM)
Hi all, I have been a long time Matrix customer and this subject has brought me out of my (silent) lurker hole. As much as I want SSG and Matrixgames to live long and prosperous, I have to say that I really feel like a fool right now. When I bought Kharkov, It was as much an attempt to support SSG as everybody else. However, I also noticed that I was entitled to a discount on the AtD2, when the time came. That promise made me purchase the game. And now, I see that the promise is not fulfilled. That is legally wrong, and commercially a potential disaster. For me, I probably will not buy AtD2 anyway. However, I would not have bought Kharkov without the promise of a discount for AtD2 either. What should Matrix do about it? Well, If we make the assumption that a normal discount for a Matrix game is 25%, that means that AtD2 should have been discounted by 10§. I would expect Matrix to reimburse all original Kharkov customers, who have already bought AtD2, with 10§, as well as offering AtD2 at a discount 25% to anybody who can prove a prior ownership of Kharkov. This solution will prove to all that Matrix will stand by their promises (SSG's promise of a discount is legally Matrix's promise), as well as give me a good reason to purchase AtD2. ;-) Jens

jeffreysutro@jeffreysutro.com -> RE: Price (4/9/2010 10:54:06 PM)
Some of the earlier posts in this thread implied that the poster(s) felt that HPS games were a bargain compared to Kharkov/Across the Dneper. Consequently I took a look at the HPS website and found that HPS prices each battle at $50 ($49.95 to be exact). So to get their Kharkov and Smolensk games would would cost $100 compared to $90 for the SSG version. In addition SSG includes Husky and Konrad (which would bring the total HPS price up to $200 for all four) and Kirovagrad which doesn't appear to be available from SSG. Even if it is possible, as one poster stated, to find these games for $30 if you know where to look (which I don't) that's still $120 for 4 HPS battles compared to $90 for 5 SSG battles. I don't mean to imply that HPS games are overpriced, since they appear to me to be good games and well worth the money. My point is that the SSG games are priced right in line with the other comparable products on the market (even when the HPS games are heavily discounted), and in fact the SSG games are something of a bargain.

JudgeDredd -> RE: Price (4/9/2010 11:01:14 PM)
Jalla If you had read this thread through, then you understand that Matrix have discounted AtD2 because they couldn't give a direct discount to AtD owners (by the way, the discount (as far as I am aware) was for previous AtD owners - not people who bought Kharkov). So - the point I'm trying to make in your particular case is this - a) just because you bought Kharkov does not mean you were getting a discount b) you have actually been offered AtD2 at a discounted price None of you lot might not like that. Some of you might not even believe it. But just because you don't believe they have discounted it, doesn't make it so...does it I think it's time to put the thread to sleep. It's a dark day when most of the posts on a new release are about accusations of corruption. The price is what the price is. You've also been told here, by Erik, that they will come good in the next game for customers who bought. Pay and play or don't pay and leave. I can promise you I will not be posting in this thread again. The whining - and whilst I hate using that word, after all that's been said on this forum by Matrix and others, that is what it is and it's still not enough - is just plain annoying now. Nighty night peeps. [8\|]

TargAK -> RE: Price (4/9/2010 11:22:44 PM)
Jalla, I gave them the benefit of the doubt on this issue and purchased AtD II to continue to support SSG. If they plan on standardizing the series on the Kharkov engine ( I think they should) and follow an HPS style of game and engine release than I see much more profit in Matrix and SSG's future. Think how nice it would be to play all of the older games with the newer engine updates. The current business model makes all of the older games obsolete and a lost sale, which is a shame. SSG needs to get away from the engine update biz and move to the new scenario/ map biz in my opinion. Has the issue of SSG not being able to update the engine been addressed in the past?

Jalla -> RE: Price (4/9/2010 11:59:17 PM)
Judge and all, As I've bought all the SSG previous titles (Korsun, AtD, BiN, BiI, Battlefront, Kharkov etc.), I don't feel like being told to don't pay and leave... However, I don't want to be a party pooper, so I am not going to continue the price discussion here. As I said, I will not purchase AtD2, even though I did purchase AtD1 (for a very reasonable price if I remember right...). As for the question of the current SSG engine, I could not agree more with TARG. The engine is only as good as the latest release. I loved Korsun Pocket, but based on how the engine has developed, that game is today so outdated that I cannot play it anymore. So my whish is for SSG to develop a more modern engine and support it like HPS with incremental updates to all games. Also, SSG has to make games on more evenly matched battles than early Barbarossa. AtD is after all not as good a game as Korsun IMHO. Jens

Hexagon -> RE: Price (4/10/2010 12:10:23 AM)
Jeffreys, see this link http://yhst-12000246778232.stores.yahoo.net/noname.html nobody says that you buy in HPS site, if you want a direct support can pay more if not you have the other option [;)] and content... well, HPS Budapest have all the variants included in the great job made in the custom map for Kharkov and AtD2 plus other campaigns and variants and dont talk about Volcanoman job that made a full new OOB with changes the way to play more realistic for me, is like have 2 games in one. PD: Dragon Age is another example like AtD2 but i can give more examples where expansion are under 20 euros.

V22 Osprey -> RE: Price (4/10/2010 12:16:29 AM)
This thread.... [image]local://upfiles/28875/4D3D8FF8A8A143FD97043691BD623DD0.jpg[/image]

TargAK -> RE: Price (4/10/2010 12:50:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey This thread.... [image]local://upfiles/28875/4D3D8FF8A8A143FD97043691BD623DD0.jpg[/image] How does this contribute to the discussion? back to the discussion: I never purchased BiN due to the engine not being compatible with Korsun and only bought Kharkov as it seemed an imminent release of ATD2 was coming (and at a discount for previous owners). I also had hoped that Kharkov would benefit from community created scenarios but alas we were not that fortunate. Hopefully the community can recover and thrive like it did during Korsun pocket through battles in Italy. The diversion to battlefront and carries at war seemed to take the wind out of the sails of the community, or perhaps the absence of Brubaker and JSS had an effect as well. To those of you who feel the constructive criticism some of the community is offering to Matrix and SSG is whining, or people being cheap or telling people to buy the game or go away [:D] How does this effect you personally? Some of you seem to take it that way. The Emperor's clothes are good but could be better. Plenty of companies pay good money to get feed back they are getting in this thread. They should be very grateful and know that the worst that could happen is that rather than voice criticism and feedback on the forums they could say nothing and simply not purchase any future products. I purchased the game and have some complaints and suggestions, If it becomes hostile and insulting for me to do that here than next time I will voice my concerns and complaints via my wallet and silence.

Arckon -> RE: Price (4/10/2010 12:59:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TARG quote: ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey This thread.... [image]local://upfiles/28875/4D3D8FF8A8A143FD97043691BD623DD0.jpg[/image] How does this contribute to the discussion? I have read this thread in it's entirety and I personally found it the most articulate post on this thread yet.

TargAK -> RE: Price (4/10/2010 1:14:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arckon quote: ORIGINAL: TARG quote: ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey This thread.... [image]local://upfiles/28875/4D3D8FF8A8A143FD97043691BD623DD0.jpg[/image] How does this contribute to the discussion? I have read this thread in it's entirety and I personally found it the most articulate post on this thread yet. It seems diplomacy is falling apart as the SSG fanboi ops group is trying to create an incident on the Polish border in a bid for all out war! How will the Poles respond to such aggressive and terrible behavior? The Germans had the huge mortar "Thor" The Poles have the even larger "yer mom im on" canon! (and by large I mean huge if ya know what I mean!!) Your Mom is so stupid that She only changed your diapers once a month because it said on the box good for up to 20 pounds...BAAAAAAM! Will this response from the brave Poles avert war or only lead to a World war? Only time will tell... Tune in next post for another episode of "As the forum belches" "Duh duh duuuuh!

TheWombat_matrixforum -> RE: Price (4/10/2010 3:14:45 AM)
I have every HPS game every made, I'm pretty sure, and I do like them. One thing I really like about the SSG games, though, is that you can actually finish them. Budapest, for example, is a huge, long campaign in the HPS version, and takes FOREVER to play; some of the other games with custom scenarios are over 300 turns--and each turn can take an eternity. It's great for the way I play them--I play both sides, usually, old school solitaire style--but I can honestly say I've never finished one of those HPS campaigns either PBEM or solo. They're just too big and long. The SSG games, while you don't get quite as much variety of scenarios maybe, or get to move around companies and battalions all the time, allow you to finish whole battles quite handily. It'll take a while if you do it right, but you can finish. And the turn/time scale means they're more fluid feeling, because you appear to cover more ground/turn. And the AI tends to do a great job of making it challenging. Both systems have their merits, but I'm not at all sure they're that directly comparable. To me, they are both very different (but good) wargaming experiences. quote: ORIGINAL: Hexagon Jeffreys, see this link http://yhst-12000246778232.stores.yahoo.net/noname.html nobody says that you buy in HPS site, if you want a direct support can pay more if not you have the other option [;)] and content... well, HPS Budapest have all the variants included in the great job made in the custom map for Kharkov and AtD2 plus other campaigns and variants and dont talk about Volcanoman job that made a full new OOB with changes the way to play more realistic for me, is like have 2 games in one. PD: Dragon Age is another example like AtD2 but i can give more examples where expansion are under 20 euros.

Erik Rutins -> RE: Price (4/10/2010 3:18:33 AM)
Ok, that's enough everyone. Constructive criticism is always accepted here, but we seem to be heading towards personal attacks and bashing. If you want to discuss, that's fine, but keep it civil. I think we and SSG have clearly explained what happened with the discount. We are human and I think some benefit of the doubt would be warranted as we have both always done the best we could to make our customers happy. The ATD 2 price was as low as we could make it and the new free Kharkov update with the additional content, which I guess has been lost a bit in this discussion, was our effort to make you all a bit happier.

Hexagon -> RE: Price (4/10/2010 11:03:51 AM)
Of course "Battles in" and PzC arent the same type of game but they are close in some parts like conflict cover and the idea of battle/campaign. For me PzC are more tactical than Bi because you can command more units in a bigger map at company scale (in Tobruk is smaller) or Btl scale VS the regimental scale used in Bi. I dont play the full campaigns in HPS games (dont have time enough) but i can play many of the episodes of the campaign (commanding one or the armies or army korps or can play the campaign in a team game) and even can play tactical episodes (like the Stalingrad scen called "Breakout of Group Zhuravlev" one of my favourite scens) or small episodes (like you can find in Tobruk covering Crusader) in Bi you play the full campaign/battle and dont have more options apart variants... is this bad??? no, but for me this limitation in SSG game decrease for me the value of the game, you know, different wargame players different ideas. For me the perfect wargame dont exist, comparing SSG system with HPS system can say that dont like supply system in HPS games, prefer SSG specially for units because they need loss supply to be isolated the famous system of bullets (one of the main problem in HPS games) but i prefer the HPS system covering unit fatigue some missing in Bi (in HPS units loss quality when fight and have losses or fatige) and the AI in HPS games is near to null, they work more in AI in the last times but SSG are superior BUT i prefer play VS humans because they are better (or at least more "human" than an AI) as the best AI that you can have and in both games dont like the Airpower system, i like the TOAW version where you have airfields and air units as other counter unit. What i can say??? well, for me AtD2 is overpriced and dont buy it now, in future with a discount i could buy it, isnt a question of have the money, is a question of pay near the same for an add-on that for the basic game, i understand the expansion system in other way in the price question. PD: could be interesting do a votation to see what think people about this, is AtD2 overpriced??? yes, no, cheeper than i expect [;)] but is better dont do it.

e_barkmann -> RE: Price (4/10/2010 11:52:05 AM)
Starting to sound like a broken record mate. cheers

henri51 -> RE: Price (4/10/2010 12:21:38 PM)
Since we are talking about comparisons between HPS Pz Campaigns and SSG, I have most of the games of both sides, and as I said earlier, I have never finished (or in some cases never played) most of them. I went back and loaded up HPS Smolensk, and although I liked and played the game way back when, it reminded me of what I didn't like: the map is 300 hexes long and 270 turns long [X(], which is about 4 times AtD2 in both time and space. In addition, each unit can fire up to 4 times (but there is a way to get them to fire all at once), and the units are mostly company size. I changed my computer a few times since I played it (same goes for AtD), so I don't remember how far I got in the game. So anyway, although both games (Smolensk and AtD2) cover the same territory and the same battles, they are very different games. But clearly players with limited time should get more from AtD, although each move should take an hour or more (which means 20 hours or more of gameplay). Having now paid for both Kharkov and AtD2, I have said that I think the combined price is too steep, but hey - I am not the one who made the decision, so although I agree that anyone is entitled to voice his frustration or opinion about that, I think I have said enough about that and that I will let Matrix and SSG live with their business decisions. I sympathize with the few who bought Kharkov based on the "promise" that AtD2 would be discounted, but anyone who believes advertisement should remember the adage "buyer beware", or even "vis victae" [:'(] Anyway I will now go start another thread about how the AI did in my overnight AI vs AI game.[8D] Henri

DBeves -> RE: Price (4/10/2010 9:33:49 PM)
quote: Jalla If you had read this thread through, then you understand that Matrix have discounted AtD2 because they couldn't give a direct discount to AtD owners (by the way, the discount (as far as I am aware) was for previous AtD owners - not people who bought Kharkov). So - the point I'm trying to make in your particular case is this - a) just because you bought Kharkov does not mean you were getting a discount b) you have actually been offered AtD2 at a discounted price None of you lot might not like that. Some of you might not even believe it. But just because you don't believe they have discounted it, doesn't make it so...does it I think it's time to put the thread to sleep. It's a dark day when most of the posts on a new release are about accusations of corruption. The price is what the price is. You've also been told here, by Erik, that they will come good in the next game for customers who bought. Pay and play or don't pay and leave. I can promise you I will not be posting in this thread again. The whining - and whilst I hate using that word, after all that's been said on this forum by Matrix and others, that is what it is and it's still not enough - is just plain annoying now. Nighty night peeps. Yes well - who made you god of posting ? If you dont like the discussion then dont read it - dont tell others what they should post about. If people are in here complaining about the price and saying its too expensive for them to buy - that is valid criticism. The fact that people are here saying they cant justify the expenditure is entirely the point isnt it ? To me, one person buying at 35 is worse then two buying at 25 . That to me is something matrix and ssg would want to know. If you have no problem with the price then I dont really see why you have a need to post at all really - to deny others that right is just arrogance..

DBeves -> RE: Price (4/10/2010 9:42:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jeffreys Some of the earlier posts in this thread implied that the poster(s) felt that HPS games were a bargain compared to Kharkov/Across the Dneper. Consequently I took a look at the HPS website and found that HPS prices each battle at $50 ($49.95 to be exact). So to get their Kharkov and Smolensk games would would cost $100 compared to $90 for the SSG version. In addition SSG includes Husky and Konrad (which would bring the total HPS price up to $200 for all four) and Kirovagrad which doesn't appear to be available from SSG. Even if it is possible, as one poster stated, to find these games for $30 if you know where to look (which I don't) that's still $120 for 4 HPS battles compared to $90 for 5 SSG battles. I don't mean to imply that HPS games are overpriced, since they appear to me to be good games and well worth the money. My point is that the SSG games are priced right in line with the other comparable products on the market (even when the HPS games are heavily discounted), and in fact the SSG games are something of a bargain. quote: for 5 SSG battles. NWS Store sells all HPS titles for 29.99 - so thats three HPS titles for 2 ssg - not that it partticularly matters - but you are trying to count in freely available user created content in your calculation. SSG produced Karkhov and ATD - not the other scenarios. that makes SSG games dealing with the same subject 50 % more expensive. I do however entirley agree that they are two different games. HPS games make me want to buy a book given the sheer amount of detail in them. SSG games whilst good - dont give me that same feeling. thats either good or bad depending on how much commitment I looking for.

JudgeDredd -> RE: Price (4/11/2010 12:04:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DBeves quote: Jalla If you had read this thread through, then you understand that Matrix have discounted AtD2 because they couldn't give a direct discount to AtD owners (by the way, the discount (as far as I am aware) was for previous AtD owners - not people who bought Kharkov). So - the point I'm trying to make in your particular case is this - a) just because you bought Kharkov does not mean you were getting a discount b) you have actually been offered AtD2 at a discounted price None of you lot might not like that. Some of you might not even believe it. But just because you don't believe they have discounted it, doesn't make it so...does it I think it's time to put the thread to sleep. It's a dark day when most of the posts on a new release are about accusations of corruption. The price is what the price is. You've also been told here, by Erik, that they will come good in the next game for customers who bought. Pay and play or don't pay and leave. I can promise you I will not be posting in this thread again. The whining - and whilst I hate using that word, after all that's been said on this forum by Matrix and others, that is what it is and it's still not enough - is just plain annoying now. Nighty night peeps. Yes well - who made you god of posting ? If you dont like the discussion then dont read it - dont tell others what they should post about. If people are in here complaining about the price and saying its too expensive for them to buy - that is valid criticism. The fact that people are here saying they cant justify the expenditure is entirely the point isnt it ? To me, one person buying at 35 is worse then two buying at 25 . That to me is something matrix and ssg would want to know. If you have no problem with the price then I dont really see why you have a need to post at all really - to deny others that right is just arrogance.. Well - I wasn't going to post again, but it appears you were determined to bring me out of retirement. So I made a post and you choose to reply based on the two sentences "Pay and play or don't play and leave" and "...is just plain boring now"? You completely disregarded the rest of my post which made more sense (with regard to the post I was responding to) than some other posts on here...AND you choose to ignore posts with even lesser content on this thread and focus on mine? WoW! [&o] quote: If you have no problem with the price then I dont really see why you have a need to post at all really - to deny others that right is just arrogance.. So is freedom of speech is only acceptable if it adheres to your point of view?....right.[8\|]

jeffreysutro@jeffreysutro.com -> RE: Price (4/11/2010 12:20:21 AM)
DBeves: I would respectfully disagree. The scenarios included under the Kharkov 2.0 patch are "official" Kharkov scenarios that are presented as being up to SSG's standards are endorsed by SSG as a part of the game. They are provided automatically when you download the patch and are supported by SSG just like any other part of the game. I do sincerely thank those wonderful dedicated volunteers who did such a great job in producing Kirovagrad and Konrad (I believe Husky was produced in house, please correct me if I'm wrong), but no matter who produced them they were finalized and released under the auspices of SSG as a part of Kharkov. This is different from Soltsy which is a very nice scenario, but makes no claim of being official or of having to meet the standards of SSG's official scenarios. The other battles are provided to me by SSG as part of the game and are part of the value that I receive when I purchase the game. They are in fact of substanltial value to me, and I feel they should certainly be included in any price comparison or purchase decision. As an aside, I also read somewhere that some of the HPS scenarios are user produced, which would be a fine thing if true. Do you know if that is accurate? In any case to get the same battles included in Kharkov and Across the Dneper for $90 you would have to spend $120 on HPS games and would still not have Kirovagrad. For me that makes the SSG games a better deal. Note though, that I do not mean this as a criticism of the HPS games which look to me as if they also provide excellent value for the money. In fact as a result of this discussion I am considering purchasing some of them, so my thanks to all those who have provided information about them.

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