RE: Price (Full Version)

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NavalNewZ -> RE: Price (4/8/2010 3:06:05 AM)

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Duck Doc -> RE: Price (4/8/2010 3:34:46 AM)

You hit the nail on the head. I am astounded at those who just don't get it. At 50$ AtD2 is a bargain. Wargames don't come any better. This isn't a scenario - it is a way of life. I am happy to make the investment. I have not had one regret about an SSG purchase. I don't wargame much any more but this series is my rock. I always come back to it. I started gaming again with a PBEM game in Battles in Italy. What durability & quality!



Hexagon -> RE: Price (4/8/2010 9:53:35 AM)

For me AtD2 is a scenario same as Kharkov, if i pay for Kharkov is because SSG works in an expansion called AtD2, i see Kharkov as an expansive investiment and AtD2 as a "cheap" add-on to Kharkov my disgusting with AtD2 price is that the original AtD dont cost 30 euros and both are called expansions... this is my point of view.

If we talk about relation between cost and diversion i have FULL games cheaper than AtD2 and that provide me hours and hours of game time.

PD: opinions are like butts, everybody has one and all works in the same way [:D]



jmlima -> RE: Price (4/8/2010 10:01:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
... Their releases are generally in the very top group of our releases in terms of quality and challenge because of the amount of time they spend testing, re-testing, polishing and balancing. ...


Erik,

Far from be to be nity picky, but, you wrote the above when on this same forum there is a thread refering that one of the scenarios shipping with this release is 75% finished. [:D]



squatter -> RE: Price (4/8/2010 10:04:32 AM)


Kharkov/AtD are the best hex based WWII land war games that have ever been produced.

The combination of clear interface and elegant combat engine put them head and shoulders above anything else.

If you are interested in this genre then you are crazy not to try it. And SSG title only comes along ever two years or so.

If you PBEM you will get unlimited value out of it.

I agree AtD should have been released as a standalone. But hey, if you don't already own Kharkov, just by that one instead - with all the Konrad/Husky added content, Kharkov is now an excellent purchase.

That's my shout.









e_barkmann -> RE: Price (4/8/2010 10:50:08 AM)

quote:

there is a thread refering that one of the scenarios shipping with this release is 75% finished


...in the original poster's opinion.

cheers



planetbrain -> RE: Price (4/8/2010 11:53:10 AM)

OK, I've got this expansion now.
Disappointed, I was, to see the price. I still think it's too high for a one scenario expansion for a system already in place,but.........
I have been sold by the positive comments in this forum and I do know that SSG (generally) produce a quality product. In consideration, too, that this quality includes progression & refinements.



JudgeDredd -> RE: Price (4/8/2010 11:53:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexagon
...my disgusting with AtD2 price is that the original AtD dont cost 30 euros and both are called expansions... this is my point of view.

To be fair, though....Petrol doesn't cost what it cost 3 years ago. The car that I wanted 3 years ago has gone up. The price of that Graphics card...everything has gone up m8. The original AtD cost, what, $20?? I don't know. So this one costs $30...it's not rocket science. The prices of things go up. Peoples wages go up. Interest Rates go up (and sometimes down). My pension invested in shares took a nose dive a year ago and has rocketed this year...it's the way of the world.



Hexagon -> RE: Price (4/8/2010 12:14:50 PM)

And graphics go up, content go up... O WAIT!!! [:D] AtD2 isnt a "new" game, is an add-on made with Kharkov "new" engine i understand that Kharkov be a little overpriced but i dont see the same when talk about AtD2 because usually an expansion/add-on cost half price and the half of 36 euros isnt 30 [:-]

My point of view is clear and i am going to wait to the first 30% discount in Matrixgames because pay 21 euros for AtD2 isnt a perfect price but is less abusive than 30 euros.

PD: HPS games cost the same now than 5 years ago [8|]



JudgeDredd -> RE: Price (4/8/2010 12:34:09 PM)

Well, I won't get into the HPS/Matrix Games argument if you don't mind.

You seem to be getting stuck on "words" and "previous cost". Add On could well be the wrong word to use. If I've read correctly, the AtD2 (addon) has a bigger map and more units than Kharkov but costs less.

I'm talking about SSG and quality gaming per hour. I'm not talking about what the last addon 10 years ago cost. I'm not comparing the price to other addons. I'm not talking about how many scenarios you get. I'm not talking about whether it's got a campaign or not. I'm talking quality per gaming hour, and in that sense, £30 is cheap.

I won't argue with you or anyone else anymore about it. You've made up your mind it's too pricey. I think you think your concerns are valid. However I think if you look at it per gaming pound and how long you will be playing the game and the level of challenge in the game (and I'm basing my impressions on Kharkov), I disagree.



Duck Doc -> RE: Price (4/8/2010 1:26:04 PM)

I suspect from reading your post you may not be a native English speaker or you may be grammatically-challenged. When you are tuning up your English skills & you have a dictionary handy you might look up the following two words: penurious & whiner.



Hexagon -> RE: Price (4/8/2010 1:34:30 PM)

Well, if you see my posts i say that for me AtD2 add-on is overpriced and i dont buy it until the first matrixgames sale (2011-2012 Crishtmas) i post the arguments that i use to think that and add the point of view that wargames world isnt limited to SSG games, i can play other wargames (as good or even better than SSG games) and wait AtD2 as i do with Kharkov but this is a forum and can post my disagree with AtD2 price (an add-on sell as full game price, see AGEODs RoP) but only 6 euros cheaper than the in theory main game. You think that AtD2 cost 30 euros and buy it, no problem is your money, for me isnt the case and i wait.

PD: dont do confuse associations, dont like a game price dont mean that dont like game or company but as in my country we says "friends??? of course but the cow for what it costs" or another that says "for the vice of asking for the virtue of not giving" [;)]

EDIT: Dale H great arguments!!! i see the typical Anglo-Saxon education [:-]



Lützow -> RE: Price (4/8/2010 1:40:09 PM)

Well, I purchased it. Decisive factor was that I got an Axis assault scenario which also is bigger than Kharkov.

I still think AtD is to expensive, regarding the fact, that SSG had less work with the engine and re-used turorials and manual from Kharkov. To those who bring up the value-per-gaming-hour argument: one can hardly link a wargame with movies, but should rather held it against Grigsby titles. In comparison with Steel Panthers, BTR or WitP it yields a different picture.

Anyway, I hope it with was worth € 36.



JudgeDredd -> RE: Price (4/8/2010 2:38:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexagon

Well, if you see my posts i say that for me AtD2 add-on is overpriced and i dont buy it until the first matrixgames sale (2011-2012 Crishtmas) i post the arguments that i use to think that and add the point of view that wargames world isnt limited to SSG games, i can play other wargames (as good or even better than SSG games) and wait AtD2 as i do with Kharkov but this is a forum and can post my disagree with AtD2 price (an add-on sell as full game price, see AGEODs RoP) but only 6 euros cheaper than the in theory main game. You think that AtD2 cost 30 euros and buy it, no problem is your money, for me isnt the case and i wait.

PD: dont do confuse associations, dont like a game price dont mean that dont like game or company but as in my country we says "friends??? of course but the cow for what it costs" or another that says "for the vice of asking for the virtue of not giving" [;)]

EDIT: Dale H great arguments!!! i see the typical Anglo-Saxon education [:-]

Hexagon - I have no idea where you a from, but I can guarantee your English is better than my attempts at whatever your native language is.



Hexagon -> RE: Price (4/8/2010 2:53:33 PM)

Lol, even in my native lenguage i do some "crimes" against it [:D]

Sorry if somebody think that i write "Anglo-Saxon education" as an insult for all boys, is only a reply to Dale H post where first say that my english is bad (sad but true hehehe) and second call me "penurious & whiner" this is the education part or my reply [:'(]

PD: JudgeDredd, you dont need talk a lenguage to have the basic things like food, drink and for women sorry but in all places this part is complicated [:D]



Duck Doc -> RE: Price (4/8/2010 3:23:30 PM)

You are entitled to your opinion & I did not call you anything. I may have made a reference to something you took personally just as I may have taken personally your indirect reference to a lower alimentary tract opening. I am not speaking for JudgeDredd (he is not a fan or advocate of mine regardless) but what he said was a compliment. Your command of English is better than mine in any other language. I am standing in your shadow. Let us be friendly in our arguments.



stormbringer3 -> RE: Price (4/8/2010 3:46:00 PM)

I agree with a post earlier in this thread that perhaps the two games could be combined in a package discount. I live in a dialup only area and therefore always buy physical copy. These games look excellent, but to get them both would cost me near $110.



jhdeerslayer -> RE: Price (4/8/2010 3:55:16 PM)

I bought it. What the hell. I'll get my $40 worth out of it I'm sure.



Hexagon -> RE: Price (4/8/2010 4:41:07 PM)

Dale H if you refer to

"PD: opinions are like butts, everybody has one and all works in the same way"

I dont find where i say something wrong about somebody, is a saying in my country and means that every body has an opinion (opinions are like butts) and thinks that is the best but finally all opinions are equal (works in the same way)... if somebody find it offensive can say it to me and i edit the post and delete it, no problem.

You write "you have a dictionary handy you might look up the following two words: penurious & whiner." and do it and dont like your "joke" first i have the money to buy AtD2 as say in other post but dont find the price good for me and be a whiner... well, this is a forum and i think that can write my opinion.

For me the "war" is over, i dont change my point of view, you dont change yours and all goes fine [;)]

PD: i continue testing SoA beta [sm=sterb029.gif]



Venividivici10044 -> RE: Price (4/9/2010 4:14:36 AM)

Folks,

I felt the need to drop a few thoughts in this thread...entertaining read...almost worth 40USD in entertainment value on its own.

1.  MARGINAL COST = MARGINAL BENEFIT
2. On the basis of point one, you'll buy something if the value to you is equal to (or greater) than its cost.
3. Companies set prices on the basis of where they will make maximal profit. On that basis, price is calculated through a demand curve.  The price can be derived from prior sales of other titles (in the industry or to a specific company in an industry) - for those who remember their economics - elasticity of demand comes into play here.
4. Entertainment is (to a degree) a luxury item.  Elasticity for luxury items is directly affected by socio-economic status.  Simply stated, those with relatively higher incomes (higher disposable income levels) will buy luxury items at a rate much higher than those of lower economic status. 
5. Matrix and SSG don't magically come to a decision of ....oh lets charge x dollars for this title...(no company in business does this), but rather look at their production cost and demand data to determine a sales price that will maximize profit.  This is the nature of business...whether you make wargames or nails.
6. As an aside...Software is an interesting subject to contemplate though on the basis that it is a high margin sales product.  Still....the demand curve will determine the price.


All of the above stated, you can complain all you want, but those who will buy will buy.  Those who won't, won't buy.  As for a discount, that's a tough one.  I think Matrix screwed up, in that they failed to explain their rationale for no discount at inception.  They have subsequently apologized and given reasons of fair measure, so its time to move on.



jeffreysutro@jeffreysutro.com -> RE: Price (4/9/2010 6:40:54 AM)

On this thread a few people have stated that they would have prefered Across the Dneper 2 to have been released as a stand alone game. I would be very strongly opposed to that, and I would urge SSG not to return to that older system.

It is that system which they used for the earlier games, up through Battlefront, and it worked badly. Each game featured improvements in the game engine over what was included in the preceeding game. Consequently the preceeding game became somewhat out of date, so that by now there are 4 different older game engines, all of them significantly different from the current Kharkov engine. The older games (I own all of them except Battles in Italy) are all good games, but I never play them any more because I would have to go back and relearn the system, and because the Kharkov engine is superior to any of them, and because disk space is at a premium on some of my computers. Each new game diminished the preceeding game(s) and, to some extent, made them obsolete.

Instead, under the current system the new expansion added substantial improvements to the existing Kharkov gaame (the last 2 patches were added to Kharkov in anticipation of Across the Dneper), as well as three new battles, one of which has 3 scenerios and another of which has several interesting "what if" variants. Under the new system each new release adds to the existing game(s), which will therefore remain fresh and exciting indefinately. I haven't even bought Across the Dneper yet (though I intend to, it sounds like a very exciting and interesting game), but it already has revived my interest in Karkov and enhanced my enjoyment of it.. The system and the game will be in essence "evergreen", always fresh and up to date, and always expanding.

For those who like detailed and accurate wargames, and haven't yet bought Kharkov, I would highly reccomend it. It's a a real bargain that now includes 4 battles (5 if you count Soltsy), each very different from the others, with numerous variants / scenerios, and with still more content in the works. All of them have AI's that are quite good, a situation which is very different from the earlier games where most of the user made scenerios were PBEM only. You may later decide to buy Across the Dneper or some future scenerio pack(s), but Kharkov is the "gateway drug" that will hook you into some of the best gaming around.



Hexagon -> RE: Price (4/9/2010 9:03:06 AM)

Well, for me have AtD2 as a stand alone game or as add-on is indiferent because i buy Kharkov but as the game type used in this new "Battles in" series i prefer the stand alone system because you can buy the battle/campaign that you prefer (as do in HPS series, you dont need a base game to play the campaign that you prefer) and because in the add-on system i dont see any special benefit in cost for buyer because this new AtD dont have for me an add-on price (sorry but i have the buyer point of view) and force customer to buy Kharkov.

Another question is say that add-on system is good because you can have the game with the last engine version... well, see the HPS and AGEOD case, HPS have the first Smolensk updated to the last PzC engine version and AGEOD add in ACW improvements from NCP (the orders buttoms), have the games of a serie divided in independent games dont means that after you have the last oldest are forced to be left.

Pardon for being so heavy [8|]

PD: Venividivici1004 in a perfect world is as you say but you forgive that in a market the price is put by the buyers in the last point [;)]



U2 -> RE: Price (4/9/2010 9:19:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexagon

Well, for me have AtD2 as a stand alone game or as add-on is indiferent because i buy Kharkov but as the game type used in this new "Battles in" series i prefer the stand alone system because you can buy the battle/campaign that you prefer (as do in HPS series, you dont need a base game to play the campaign that you prefer) and because in the add-on system i dont see any special benefit in cost for buyer because this new AtD dont have for me an add-on price (sorry but i have the buyer point of view) and force customer to buy Kharkov.



Hexagon,

You have a very valid point.

1. People will think an add-on simply is worth less than Kharkov and will then bitch about the price. I have no problem with the price since this is no add-on...it's a new campaign, just like Kharkov was, but it needs Kharkov to run. People will just have a hard time understanding that unless they buy the product.

2. Just like with HPS games SSG customers should be able to buy the campaigns they feel is most interesting to them. If SSG continues with "add-ons" that require Kharkov that can't be good. The HPS system works perfectly and should be used by SSG.

This will hopefully be the last add-on but if it's not it makes no difference to me since I have Kharkov and will buy everything SSG makes anyway. But it makes a difference to others and I do understand that...to some degree.

I bought the game since 38 euro (31 euro if digital only) is nothing for a game like this. It's a great game! Having tons of fun! [&o]




jmlima -> RE: Price (4/9/2010 9:39:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: U2
...This will hopefully be the last add-on but if it's not it makes no difference to me since I have Kharkov and will buy everything SSG makes anyway. But it makes a difference to others and I do understand that...to some degree.

...


I think this should be the last add-on priced as a full product.

Add-ons are not the issue, add-ons priced as if they are a full product are though.

In fact, I agree entirely with the add-ons strategy, I was actually waiting for this to come out and get, what I imagined would happen, that was a full price Kharkov and a much reduced price add-on. Alas, that is not the case.

But hey, I'm just one customer, hardly should SSG price things to suit the lower budgeted end of their market. I respect their decision , and if I do not agree with it , then I quite simply do not buy it.




U2 -> RE: Price (4/9/2010 9:47:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmlima


I think this should be the last add-on priced as a full product.

Add-ons are not the issue, add-ons priced as if they are a full product are though.




But this is what HPS does all the time. The engine that was created for Panzer Campaigns Smolensk '41 back in the very late 90's (?) is used for every new game, priced as a full new product mind you, and they've been doing it forever. What they do well is to always upgrade old games within the same engine with new improvements that came with the latest release.

This is exactly what SSG is doing now but instead of releasing this as a stand alone product, like HPS does, they choose to call it "add on". It's still the same thing Jmlima! You are tricked by the word "add on" and think it's worth less and you state that quite clearly in your post.

Across the Dnepr is a full product and should not be looked at differently.



jmlima -> RE: Price (4/9/2010 10:01:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: U2
...Across the Dnepr is a full product and should not be looked at differently.



No it's not. I cannot buy JUST Across the Dnepr and play it. Hence it's not a full prodcut. I fail to see how it can even be claimed to be a full product. It lacks the engine to run.

As to HPS I can buy Minsk and run it, without buying Smolensk. That IS a full product.



U2 -> RE: Price (4/9/2010 10:45:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jmlima


quote:

ORIGINAL: U2
...Across the Dnepr is a full product and should not be looked at differently.



No it's not. I cannot buy JUST Across the Dnepr and play it. Hence it's not a full prodcut. I fail to see how it can even be claimed to be a full product. It lacks the engine to run.

As to HPS I can buy Minsk and run it, without buying Smolensk. That IS a full product.



They have just decided to do things differently. Minsk is a new scenario using the Smolensk engine charged full price. Across the Dnepr is a new scenario using the Kharkov engine charged full price (but called an add-on instead). The only difference is how they decided to sell the product. I would have liked the HPS way of running things since it would stop discussions like we are having right now.



DBeves -> RE: Price (4/9/2010 11:00:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: U2


quote:

ORIGINAL: jmlima


quote:

ORIGINAL: U2
...Across the Dnepr is a full product and should not be looked at differently.



No it's not. I cannot buy JUST Across the Dnepr and play it. Hence it's not a full prodcut. I fail to see how it can even be claimed to be a full product. It lacks the engine to run.

As to HPS I can buy Minsk and run it, without buying Smolensk. That IS a full product.



They have just decided to do things differently. Minsk is a new scenario using the Smolensk engine charged full price. Across the Dnepr is a new scenario using the Kharkov engine charged full price (but called an add-on instead). The only difference is how they decided to sell the product. I would have liked the HPS way of running things since it would stop discussions like we are having right now.




Is it not the REASON they decided to do it his way thats important. If they had decided to release ATD as a standalone product the argument would be different - although at the price its being sold - for me its still a third more expensive than an HPS game (which I beleive contains more effort as it usually comes with 20 or so well researched and balanced smaller scenarios - designer notes etc.)

If this was a case of - "if we dont release ATD standalone maybe that will force up sales of Karkhov - and we will make more money" then that is a cynical business decision - all be it a sensible one - but one that for me at least - blows out of the water all this talk of buying to support SSG - well not if they are doing things for commercial reasons and we arent.

To me there is no reason whatsoever for not releasing ATD as a standalone product - so my view on the decision that was made tends to be a negative one. The fact that HPS games all use the same engine is not the point - the fact that they constantly retrofit all those changes to products that were were released 10 years ago and on a product line of over 70 titles is to their everlasting credit. Maybe if SSG did the same we would not be complaining so much. Using free content created by users as a justification for price is just not an argument. In fact HPS titles are the only ones I buy on instinct merely as a support to them.

At the end of the day this title is still far more expensive than an HPS title (if you buy it from the right place) for in my view less content. As I said in the post that started all this - I bought it ... but its also a question of perception when all I got for the money was one more item in my menu choice for scenarios.



U2 -> RE: Price (4/9/2010 11:41:06 AM)











[/quote]

At the end of the day this title is still far more expensive than an HPS title (if you buy it from the right place) for in my view less content. As I said in the post that started all this - I bought it ... but its also a question of perception when all I got for the money was one more item in my menu choice for scenarios.
[/quote]

Oh, I agree and perhaps this will explain my point of view even better. I LOVE the Panzer/Modern campaigns by HPS but I buy them for one scenario only...the campaign scenario. Why should I waste time playing something that is only a part of the map/units in the main scenario? I know others would disagree with me....but when I buy a MC/Pz Campaigns I spend 30 bucks for one scenario only....the rest I do not even bother with. SSG gives me the same thing...one BIG scenario for 30 something bucks. With better AI...[:)]



jmlima -> RE: Price (4/9/2010 12:00:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: U2
...
SSG gives me the same thing...one BIG scenario for 30 something bucks. ...



That's the gist of the issue. It doesn't. You do not get a complete game in Across the Dnepr. You get an expansion that requires another game to be played. And this, for a price nearing the full game.



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