RE: Price (Full Version)

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sabre1 -> RE: Price (4/14/2010 3:25:56 AM)

Ok Guys,

I took the plunge. I liked Kharkov, and I'm sure I will like this expansion.



Adam Parker -> RE: Price (4/14/2010 4:19:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sabre1

Ok Guys,

I took the plunge. I liked Kharkov, and I'm sure I will like this expansion.


If its AI is anything like Husky's you will. A lot of blood sweat and tears I believe has gone into making it play right.



emcgman -> RE: Price (4/14/2010 7:34:14 AM)

I wish I had some freaking money, ATD2 looks awesome. I already own Kharkov. Aside from this stupid price thread, I haven't seen one significant negative comment about this game.

Compared to some of the bad feedback you see on other game forums, of mainstream games, that in itself says a lot, IMO.

It would be great if players new to this series would take the plunge, especially based on the excellent review at PC World.

For $90.00 the typical new player would be looking at least 100 hours of gameplay. Actually, 100 hours of very diverse gameplay. Considering it takes roughly 20 hours to beat the typical 3d game, ATD2 is actually a bargain.

Personally, I think players make too big a deal out of the number of scenarios. I also own TOAW III, where there are literally dozens of scenarios, and I play the SSG series way more, because it's a more interesting design approach.

Which, by the way, if you are looking for a game with numerous scenarios, get TOAW III.
There is a user made Viet Nam series available that would take the rest of your life to play through, it's huge, if that's what you are looking for.

But you cannot beat the quality of gameplay found in the SSG series, that's the difference between the two.

You can also pick up on the earlier releases, like Battles in Normandy, and Korsun Pocket. Although the engine is different, the gameplay is mega fun. You don't directly control the artillery. As long as it is within range, it automatically supports an attack. I really like those earlier releases because of this factor.

To sum up, screw the price, and don't cop an attitude about the tentative discount promises that were made, the Kharkov/ATD2 package is awesome. Remember, this a handful of guys busting their butts to make one of the highest quality games in the industry.








JudgeDredd -> RE: Price (4/14/2010 7:54:01 AM)

[sm=happy0065.gif]



hank -> RE: Price (4/14/2010 6:11:42 PM)

I've ordered mine so its OK for me to rant about price.

I have absolutely no problems with the price of the game.  $49.99 is worth it IMHO.

What I have a problem with is the shipping and tax.  Heck, I buy motorcycle stuff fairly regularly off the internet and I pay less for shipping larger heavier things than the little CD case AtD will come in.  $10.85 is quite expensive for shipping unless its overnight which I doubt this is ... well I know its not since I got the ship notice on 4/12 and here it is 4/14 (and I ordered it on 4/9).  If its at my house when I get home today I'll be slightly less aggravated.  Matrix ought to give us an option of expensive shipping or USPS regular shipping.

And the tax.  $5.62 for tax.  That's over 11%.  Sounds kind of steep to me.  Well, I guess it could be worse. I'm sure that's going to go up as soon as "they" (the gubment) hit us with a VAT ... or worse yet, the gubment labels our hobby as a sin and hits it with a "sin tax".

OK, rant over.  I can't wait to get my package.

have a nice day

PS: I hope the guys at SSG who developed this game get every penny of that $49.99.  They deserve it.  .... and thanks again



LarryP -> RE: Price (4/14/2010 6:41:58 PM)

I'd love to comment on what things are really going to increase and why, but this thread would get locked. No politics. [8|]

I ended up buying Kharkov and Dnepr, and I am not the least bit sorry. The package is packed with war gaming goodness. [&o]



hank -> RE: Price (4/14/2010 8:15:47 PM)

OOPS!  maybe I should not have mentioned taxes.  Hope I'm not in trouble.

I promise to never say anything else about taxes.  ... sorry  [:-]



Gregor_SSG -> RE: Price (4/15/2010 8:30:44 AM)

Just on the comments about Peter Carr's scenario, I would like to make a few things clear. We deliberately included all the free scenarios, our Husky, Pete's Konrad and Chris Merchant's Kirovgrad with the patch to Kharkov and not with the ATD II product, even though including them would have made ATD II look more attractive.

We did this to keep faith with those who had supported us by buying Kharkov in the first place. No end user is paying for those scenarios, and the scenario creators certainly aren't being paid either, so the use of the word 'commercial' regarding those people who have created the scenarios is, in my opinion, unwarranted.

There certainly is a commercial benefit to SSG from having user created scenarios, and we gratefully acknowledge that people who create scenarios are helping us. There is equally a benefit to game owners from user created scenarios, so I would suggest that it is in everybody's interest to encourage scenario creators. Some of the posts above have clearly had the opposite effect.

Finally, if there is to be criticism, please choose appropriate targets. For example, questions of font display are all SSG's problem, nothing to do with the scenario creators.

Gregor




Adam Parker -> RE: Price (4/15/2010 9:51:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG

Just on the comments about Peter Carr's scenario, I would like to make a few things clear. We deliberately included all the free scenarios, our Husky, Pete's Konrad and Chris Merchant's Kirovgrad with the patch to Kharkov and not with the ATD II product, even though including them would have made ATD II look more attractive.


Hi Gregor, I think this post is directed at me. Looking at the release blurb at Matrix it simply states that AtD2 comes with "3 free scenarios in addition to the Across the Dnepr mega-scenario: Operation Husky, Operation Konrad and Kirovograd". No where does it mention that these are user created scens so I took this to mean they were "commercial quality - SSG made" scenarios. Hence my comments about Konrad's polish. Kudos agan to the creator for all the hard work. Boo to the unclear marketing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG

Finally, if there is to be criticism, please choose appropriate targets. For example, questions of font display are all SSG's problem, nothing to do with the scenario creators.


I don't recall directing this comment to anyone other than SSG.

Sorry I didn't get to test more for you owing to real life. And as I posted somewhere above, I hope that Ian is recovering well.

Cheers,
Adam.



Gregor_SSG -> RE: Price (4/16/2010 12:24:07 AM)

Adam,

Thanks for asking after Ian, he is much better. We've had some brand new fetters made, dosed him with castor oil, told him not get sick again and pressed him back into service all as part of our compassionate company healthcare plan.

Gregor



e_barkmann -> RE: Price (4/16/2010 12:49:31 AM)

quote:

Boo to the unclear marketing.


The release notes pdf supplied with the game and patch made it all crystal clear.

cheers



Erik Rutins -> RE: Price (4/16/2010 1:00:56 AM)

We also announced in our press release that the free scenarios were also available in the free update and not limited to Across the Dnepr Second Edition.



jhdeerslayer -> RE: Price (4/16/2010 2:03:26 AM)

It takes me almost an hour to play a turn from one side. 20 turns X 1 hour = 20 hours from one side to finish. Play the other side and now 40 hours maybe. This is just the AI. Add PBEM play and worth $40 to me.



e_barkmann -> RE: Price (4/16/2010 2:10:53 AM)

Additionally, there are several scenario variants for each side for ATDSE, and these can be played against AI or PBEM.
In other wargames these are ususally presented as separate scenarios but the SSG engine presents these as options during setup of the game.

Also, something that is not mentioned often is the 'Unknown Units' option - this can change various factors of each unit in the game and thus adds unpredictability to both sides. Keep in mind once you've played the game a few times, the results can be surprising and challenging.

cheers







Tzar007 -> RE: Price (4/16/2010 3:06:13 AM)

Well,

I did not read the whole thread, but this is getting tiring always hearing complaints about price, not enough scenarios, this is just an expansion and what not...

Some people need to understand that wargaming is a NICHE market. It is a complex hobby and you get what you pay for. Even at 40$, 50$ or 60$, the economics of the wargaming industry are such that costs are barely covered at these prices. Hell, they could charge 100$ a game and still all these companies such as SSG, Panther or publisher Matrix would be far, very far from being millionnaires. No amount of whining will ever change these simple, hard facts.

So personally I went ahead and bought ATD2. I already bought BIN, BII, Korsun and Kharkov and thoroughly enjoyed them, no matter the price I paid. So buying ATD2 was no big deal, and I am convinced I am going to enjoy this one. The game system introduced by Kharkov is a large improvement over the Decisive Battle system, and I certainly want SSG to continue to upgrade their previous offerings to that system. If my little money can help to do this, so much the better.

To all the price whiners: sorry to be that blunt, but it is what it is and if you have regular issues with wargame prices, you might want to consider some other hobby. Bridge perhaps. Or scrabble, I don't know, there's certainly something more affordable for you out there.





parusski -> RE: Price (4/16/2010 3:14:47 AM)

Very well stated Tzar. In my first post I tried, feebly, to state why the price was not too high. But the whole thread became tiresome very quickly. That's why a few of us had to put in a sarcastic post or two. I am like you and find it amazing the level of complaining about game prices, which have stayed pretty stable for years.

Like I said earlier, I want a new boat. But it cost's about $70,000 more than I have right now. At first I was going to do what I was taught by my family and save for the thing. But since this thread began I have been calling the boat manufacturer daily, complaining about the unfairness of the price and how everyone should be able to buy the boat. So far, they keep hanging up on me. I don't think the ATD2 whiners get the point. If you can't afford it-wait until you can, or shut up and don't buy it at all.



LarryP -> RE: Price (4/16/2010 3:24:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tzar007

Well,

I did not read the whole thread, but this is getting tiring always hearing complaints about price, not enough scenarios, this is just an expansion and what not...

Some people need to understand that wargaming is a NICHE market. It is a complex hobby and you get what you pay for. Even at 40$, 50$ or 60$, the economics of the wargaming industry are such that costs are barely covered at these prices. Hell, they could charge 100$ a game and still all these companies such as SSG, Panther or publisher Matrix would be far, very far from being millionnaires. No amount of whining will ever change these simple, hard facts.

So personally I went ahead and bought ATD2. I already bought BIN, BII, Korsun and Kharkov and thoroughly enjoyed them, no matter the price I paid. So buying ATD2 was no big deal, and I am convinced I am going to enjoy this one. The game system introduced by Kharkov is a large improvement over the Decisive Battle system, and I certainly want SSG to continue to upgrade their previous offerings to that system. If my little money can help to do this, so much the better.

To all the price whiners: sorry to be that blunt, but it is what it is and if you have regular issues with wargame prices, you might want to consider some other hobby. Bridge perhaps. Or scrabble, I don't know, there's certainly something more affordable for you out there.


Very good post. I originally stated that I was not going to spring for the game and expansion, but after thinking about supporting this niche market, I changed my mind and bought both. I love the game and the work that went into it amazes me. I love games with tons of options and this will not let me down there. Kharkov also is a good memory game for my aging brain. Memorizing the different icons and rules constantly challenges me, without the war strategy. Add the two together and my brain is quite busy. [:D]

I'm glad I spent the money ($90 US currency) and do not regret it one bit. I also have all the previous games you mentioned including Battlefront, but Kharkov is the best of all. [&o]



JudgeDredd -> RE: Price (4/16/2010 7:33:10 AM)

Well.....ok - I was one of the people here sticking up for the price and possibly the first person to call anyone a whiner. But I apologised for that because like I said in that post - everyone has a right and a duty to let Matrix or any other game company know why they are not buying a particular game.

So I think it's fine that people post on here about the price of the game and I think it should be encouraged so Matrix can have a feel for their pricing and what it may/may not do to their sales. At the end of the day if 300 people didn't buy this game because it was too expensive and Matrix dropped the price of this by $5 or $10 because of the "market research" (people letting them know it was price that prevented them buying) and suddenly sold another 200 copies, then the benefit of those posts is there for all to see.

I had the same thing once when I was on a forum letting people know I wasn't going to buy the game because of the DRM they were using. I was called a "whiner" and told if I didn't want to use the DRM, then not to bother infecting the thread with my whining and pretty much the same stuff that's been said here (including by me) - but I put the same argument forth that the people are here - if I didn't let that company know why I wasn't buying their game, then they would have no idea that a) they had lost my sale and b) that the loss of that sale was down to their DRM.

I agree - I don't think people have the right idea when it comes to looking at price and enjoyment and how cheap wargaming really is. On the other hand people are pointing out that they can by game x, y and z and have 3,000 more scenarios than what comes with ATD2. Perhaps they are looking rather shallow at the game...focussing on the "addon" and "number of scenarios" as opposed to actual, physical enjoyment hour per pound.

But we do have to remember (myself included) that everyones enjoyment per hour is different. We also have to remember that everyone has different wargaming budgets. Perhaps some people here would love to buy Matrix titles but can't because they are on the expensive side. I think it's only fair that those people voice those concerns in the hope that Matrix adjust the price. There's no reason to suggest that people should shut up and pay what's being asked. Clearly everyone wants everything in life cheaper (check out parusski and his boat!).

At the end of the day, you should feel free to register your reasons for not buying the game, regardless of what that reason is. I'm sure Matrix wouldn't want that stifled as it could be valuable market information for them for the future.

What we should not do (indlucing me) is continue to bang our heads on the wall. Register your vote and leave it at that. It's when people like me counter someones argument, and then they counter back and to and fro it goes...that's when the thread gets antagonistic to each and all.

Good luck to one and all. [:D]



DBeves -> RE: Price (4/16/2010 9:12:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Well.....ok - I was one of the people here sticking up for the price and possibly the first person to call anyone a whiner. But I apologised for that because like I said in that post - everyone has a right and a duty to let Matrix or any other game company know why they are not buying a particular game.

So I think it's fine that people post on here about the price of the game and I think it should be encouraged so Matrix can have a feel for their pricing and what it may/may not do to their sales. At the end of the day if 300 people didn't buy this game because it was too expensive and Matrix dropped the price of this by $5 or $10 because of the "market research" (people letting them know it was price that prevented them buying) and suddenly sold another 200 copies, then the benefit of those posts is there for all to see.

I had the same thing once when I was on a forum letting people know I wasn't going to buy the game because of the DRM they were using. I was called a "whiner" and told if I didn't want to use the DRM, then not to bother infecting the thread with my whining and pretty much the same stuff that's been said here (including by me) - but I put the same argument forth that the people are here - if I didn't let that company know why I wasn't buying their game, then they would have no idea that a) they had lost my sale and b) that the loss of that sale was down to their DRM.

I agree - I don't think people have the right idea when it comes to looking at price and enjoyment and how cheap wargaming really is. On the other hand people are pointing out that they can by game x, y and z and have 3,000 more scenarios than what comes with ATD2. Perhaps they are looking rather shallow at the game...focussing on the "addon" and "number of scenarios" as opposed to actual, physical enjoyment hour per pound.

But we do have to remember (myself included) that everyones enjoyment per hour is different. We also have to remember that everyone has different wargaming budgets. Perhaps some people here would love to buy Matrix titles but can't because they are on the expensive side. I think it's only fair that those people voice those concerns in the hope that Matrix adjust the price. There's no reason to suggest that people should shut up and pay what's being asked. Clearly everyone wants everything in life cheaper (check out parusski and his boat!).

At the end of the day, you should feel free to register your reasons for not buying the game, regardless of what that reason is. I'm sure Matrix wouldn't want that stifled as it could be valuable market information for them for the future.

What we should not do (indlucing me) is continue to bang our heads on the wall. Register your vote and leave it at that. It's when people like me counter someones argument, and then they counter back and to and fro it goes...that's when the thread gets antagonistic to each and all.

Good luck to one and all. [:D]



An excellent post - that sums up both sides of the argument quite succintly.

I do find it laughable how many people are coming here however and contributing lenghty posts to counter an argument they then go on to say is fatuous and annoying (not referring to your post Judge).

Its also rather annoying - as someone who has been buying wargames for about 25 years and who buys virtually every wargame related thing that comes out - to have people posting god like oracle statements about how wargaming is a niche product - as if that was something I didnt know already and that they have somehow happened upon something that is uniquely their discovery. I would suspect I support the wargaming industry as much as anyone else on this thread - and as I say - I actually bought ATD as well.

It seems to me that if slitherene games for example, can produce reasonably priced add ons to their games the whole wargiming will sink if we dont charge huge prices doesnt wholly stand up ... and thats in the arena of ancients games which I would think is a lot less popular than WWII russian front stuff.

As I said Judge got the reasons for the discussions spot on and I still maintain that this is essentially a version 2 of something already realesed. A lot of the research and map work had already been done and so I still hold to the view that its expensive for that reason, especially when you consider ATD is not a stand alone product. All be it its a new engine - but ATD was not the game that introduced that engine.

As for the actual thread and comments about whiners - I fail to see why this is any less a valid topic for discussion for exactly the reasons Judge stated - and especially at a time when there seems to be so many games on offer ( and thats another reason why I find the whole wargaming is dying argument a bit specious - I simply cant remember a time when so much was on offer).

The simple fact is - and I really cant quite understand why people dont get it is - if you dont like the subject of the thread - dont F****** read it - and certainly dont post in it.

This is after all a discussion board - and it seems to me its whole existence would be a little pointless without actual discussion.



e_barkmann -> RE: Price (4/16/2010 9:18:18 AM)

quote:

if you dont like the subject of the thread - dont F****** read it - and certainly dont post in it.


eh? Disagree with this bit entirely. That's what a forum is for - sharing points of view.

Rationally of course, and without resorting to swearing [:)]


cheers




DBeves -> RE: Price (4/16/2010 9:21:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris Merchant

quote:

if you dont like the subject of the thread - dont F****** read it - and certainly dont post in it.


eh? Disagree with this bit entirely. That's what a forum is for - sharing points of view.

Rationally of course, and without resorting to swearing [:)]


cheers





Read what I said - I have no problem with people discussing it .. what I find tiresome is people complaining about the actual existence of the discussion and then posting in the discussion.

Swearing is as much a part of the english language as any other word - given the right circumstances - also a very effective means of emphasising a point. So I dont apoligise for my asterisks. I am not at kindergarten any more.



e_barkmann -> RE: Price (4/16/2010 9:36:26 AM)

seemed to me you were summarising your points above with your 'simple fact is' statement, which is how I took it.

I am pleased you have arrived at your interpretation of the usage of the English language. Bully for you!

Cheers Chris



DBeves -> RE: Price (4/16/2010 9:47:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris Merchant

seemed to me you were summarising your points above with your 'simple fact is' statement, which is how I took it.

I am pleased you have arrived at your interpretation of the usage of the English language. Bully for you!

Cheers Chris


Well - you took it correctly - the simple fact is - if you think the discussion pointless - why discuss it.

Not my interpretation - the Oxford English Dictionary.



Hexagon -> RE: Price (4/16/2010 10:03:07 AM)

Well, i only post because are many "richmen" that call "whiners" who dont buy AtD2 by price... well, you can read all the posts and see that nobody call you "buyer without criterion" or "NGO of wargames", i dont buy AtD2 because for me dont cost 30 euros and dont call all buyers "band of *Lack of respect word*" respect is a good word but many people dont know it and they are over 40 years old (age isnt a cure for lack of education) [:-]

*Mode Ironic On* i have an idea, for whiners matrix can have a special price and for richmen other double or triple price or better, can open a phone for "save wargames!!!" [:D] *Mode Ironic Off*

PD: Niche... like AGEOD games??? or Slitherine FoG??? or Distant worlds??? they are in the niche but have better prices and more content [;)]



DBeves -> RE: Price (4/16/2010 10:27:42 AM)

quote:

*Mode Ironic On* i have an idea, for whiners matrix can have a special price and for richmen other double or triple price or better, can open a phone for "save wargames!!!" *Mode Ironic Off*


Ha ... excellent idea - then all us "whiners" can get the game we want and all those altruistic dont care how much it costs accusers can support SSG to their hearts content.

Id like to see if their principals hold up at say a 90$ mark if thats all they care about - or is the principle only as deep as someones wallet.

Interesting ...



Tzar007 -> RE: Price (4/16/2010 11:05:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves

Id like to see if their principals hold up at say a 90$ mark if thats all they care about - or is the principle only as deep as someones wallet.

Interesting ...


Mark my words: at 90$, I would still buy it. I guess I should not let it known to Matrix though, it might give them ideas [;)]

Don't make a mistake about it, I am a penny pincher in a lot of other aspects of life, but for wargaming I make an exception: I love this hobby and as long as the product is top notch and high quality, I will gladly pay. It supports the hobby and the serious wargaming developers behind it.

Here's an idea to Matrix that might help convince the price "skeptics" (won't use the "whiner" attribute anymore, I understand it's not nice [;)]): Matrix should think about implementing some kind of discount for big buyers or "repeat customers". When I look at my registered games, I think I have bought quite a few Matrix Games over the last 4 years. It would be nice if Matrix would recognize my effort at supporting them by giving me some kind of discount if my yearly purchases go over a specified amount. Rewarding your loyal and heavy buyers is a common business practice. Odd customers who buy one game every 3 years aren't the ones making this industry survives and don't deserve any special rebate, price skepticism or not. Big buyers do. If Matrix would do something about this, it would sweeten the deal and build loyalty.



Duck Doc -> RE: Price (4/17/2010 3:52:24 PM)

We have a saying in our language: "Put your money where your mouth is."

I did. Just letting you know.

I am not disappointed at all. I got more than my money's worth.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexagon

For me AtD2 is a scenario same as Kharkov, if i pay for Kharkov is because SSG works in an expansion called AtD2, i see Kharkov as an expansive investiment and AtD2 as a "cheap" add-on to Kharkov my disgusting with AtD2 price is that the original AtD dont cost 30 euros and both are called expansions... this is my point of view.

If we talk about relation between cost and diversion i have FULL games cheaper than AtD2 and that provide me hours and hours of game time.

PD: opinions are like butts, everybody has one and all works in the same way [:D]



Pete AU -> RE: Price (4/17/2010 5:30:01 PM)

All these posts about the price are quite amusing. A few years ago when I was browsing thru the BMW sales room to motivate myself to change my financial position I recalled something I'd heard or read once, and it remains with me to this day. "It's not expensive, you just can't afford it".








Nebogipfel -> RE: Price (4/17/2010 6:04:20 PM)

This thread is interesting,

someone criticizes the price of a product (that is what every customer is allowed to do!)  and instead of playing their game all fanboys seem to post the whole day in this price thread.

So the question is, is the game so boring, that posting silly things is more exciting ?



JudgeDredd -> RE: Price (4/17/2010 8:42:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nebogipfel

This thread is interesting,

someone criticizes the price of a product (that is what every customer is allowed to do!)  and instead of playing their game all fanboys seem to post the whole day in this price thread.

So the question is, is the game so boring, that posting silly things is more exciting ?


Well, I can answer for myself, no one else. I don't have the game. Waiting till next month as I can't afford another purchase this month.

I'm no fanboy - unless liking a game engine makes me one. Originally I interjected simply to post that I (having "found the light" with Kharkov) did not think it was too expensive. In fact it wasn't that it wasn't expensive as clearly to some it will be - but more to the point I was trying to say that the game was worth the money, going by gaming hour per £.

I really have no interest in specifically whether one person buys it or not. Some people had a view that the game was too expensive. Others, who enjoy the engine and have played previous iterations, tried to point out that they thought it was value for money.

As for this bit
quote:

someone criticizes the price of a product (that is what every customer is allowed to do!)

I presume you are pointing out that others aren't allowed to post their views on the price, contrary to people thinking it's too expensive? The thread has already been through that. Perhaps you'd like to read from the start as opposed to jumping in and name calling anyone who sticks up for something fanboys.

Personally I can't wait to give them my £30 [:'(]



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