RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov (Full Version)

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Erik Rutins -> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov (8/27/2010 1:45:58 AM)

Here is the spec sheet for the T-34 Model 1942, which is a MUCH tougher opponent for our Panzer IIILs than the T-70.




[image]local://upfiles/9/69E0A9BC89E34E76ADD5274582CFA5B6.jpg[/image]



Erik Rutins -> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov (8/27/2010 1:50:46 AM)

Upon more careful examination, I realize our Panzers can't see the T-34 yet. It's actually this infantry squad (in the screenshot below) that spotted it. It's in a position where it will probably be able to see our halftracks moving in the edge of the woods too.

We have a Reaction phase coming up. That means we can't issue full new orders, but for each platoon we can change their Facing, Target a new enemy, Withdraw or Halt.

I think it's time to bounce this back to the "war council" for input. What do you guys think? Any changes based on these events and the appearance of the T-34 or should I keep going per the current plan?





[image]local://upfiles/9/C132C665C51E41C08C6C7C324633362D.jpg[/image]



Erik Rutins -> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov (8/27/2010 1:53:03 AM)

I should note that the distance from the infantry in the edge of the woods to the T-34 is about 700 meters. The Panzers are about 750 meters from the T-34, but none of them can see it to engage it yet. I'm guessing the larger shot I saw was not actually a shot from the T-34, but two misses from T-70s that hit at the same time. Unfortunately I skipped past the replay before noticing the T-34 or I could confirm that for sure (I could revisit it from the autosave, but let's just call it fog of war). I think it's fair to assume though that it has not yet seen and engaged out Panzers, while we have spotted it with our infantry.

Some stats on the T-34 - it's pretty inaccurate at 700-750 meters. Based on its specs, it's got about a 10-20% chance to hit us at this range. If it hits though it has a penetration of 7 with its APHE ammo, which is capable of penetrating any armor we have.

Its front hull armor averages 9, while its front turret is about a 6 or 7.

If we got in a tank duel at 700m, our Panzer IIILs would have about a 60% chance to hit it, but their penetration is only 5 at that range, so we'd be hoping for a lucky turret hit with extra penetration on the variable penetration calculations. Our penetration on the APHE doesn't go up to 9 until we get down to 50 meters, but we do have a limited supply (about 8-12 shots in each Panzer IIIL) of APCR ammunition, which has a 9 penetration at 400 meters and is higher in closer.

Any advice?

Regards,

- Erik



Peterk1 -> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov (8/27/2010 4:28:24 AM)

One or two of the PZ IIIs fire smoke on the suspected T-34 position. The rest keep dealing with the T-70s.
Lean the infantry moves away from the edge of the woods trying to stay out of LOS of the T-34, but keep going forward to the town.

Anyone else feel like sending one squad up fast to see if the village is held?





Erik Rutins -> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov (8/27/2010 4:33:46 AM)

Hi Peter,

Just FYI, the Panzers do not have smoke capability. The infantry squads do have some limited smoke.

Regards,

- Erik



Stridor -> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov (8/27/2010 4:44:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hi Peter,

Just FYI, the Panzers do not have smoke capability. The infantry squads do have some limited smoke.

Regards,

- Erik


To be clear these panzers at this date don't have any smoke rounds, but others at other times do. The ammo loadout and shell types are historically time based.



Mobius -> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov (8/27/2010 7:30:58 AM)

The panzers can probably handle the T-70s from where they are. But the T-34?
Some plan to mob it or set get it in an ambush will have to be developed.
Hopefully its the only T-34 because it may take out a panzer or two.



jamespcrowley -> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov (8/27/2010 10:53:30 AM)

Hammer the T-70s. The T34 isn't an immediate threat (hopefully only 1!) as it can't currently spot the PZKw111s. Then hull down on the crest for HQ and one section. Second section reverse then, sheltered by the ridge, advance towards the town to either support the grenadiers or get another angle on the T34, if required.
Grenadiers continue to advance through the woods; 3rd platoon continue down road ready to disembark for an end run into the town to support either of the other two.



Kineas -> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov (8/27/2010 11:39:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rick

Yep you can toggle the trees from none, to some to all. you can also toggle the grid off and on, as well as the AI map.


Oh, POS would be so glad...



Kineas -> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov (8/27/2010 11:42:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

If we are hull down to the T-70s (I don't think we are, but if we back up a bit we might be) then the lower locations, including the tracks, could not be hit by their shots.


It's good to know the game engine can handle hull down positions...I was under the impression that it cannot



Mobius -> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov (8/27/2010 1:52:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kineas
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
If we are hull down to the T-70s (I don't think we are, but if we back up a bit we might be) then the lower locations, including the tracks, could not be hit by their shots.

It's good to know the game engine can handle hull down positions...I was under the impression that it cannot

It always could handle hulldowns, but it has been improved. In the older PCK for some reason there was a small random chance that a hull down didn't protect the tracks. In PCO hulldown always does.



Kineas -> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov (8/27/2010 2:21:35 PM)

Indeed, I just found it in the manual...



dazoline II -> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov (8/27/2010 7:47:58 PM)

Next round I'd leave the panzers where they are and hopefully finish off the T-70s.
Continue moving the dismounted troops as before but shift the troop carriers to the left side of the road hopefully out of sight due to trees from the T-34 as they come round the slope of the hill.
Continue to move the 3rd PzGdr platoon up to near where they troops sighted the T-34.

Prepare to shift a section of tanks to support the troops going in by trying to find some dead ground between the tanks current position and the road as you may encounter armour near the village which you can't tackle without your tanks. And you will need some type of cannon for hitting the buildings as I'm sure the Soviet troops are at least in the village by now or will be once your troops are in firing range.

I'd think you would want to close with the T-34 before tangling with it preferably with multiple tanks or sucking it near the village where your troops can hit it with a 'faust. (assuming they have anti-tank). If you can wipe the T-70s you'll disappear from soviet view and the T-34(s) will move closer to the village to support the soviet troops or try to cut off your tanks on the hill by rushing across the intervening road.


Nice touch with the AAR Eric. You should make it a standard with a new release.





Erik Rutins -> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov (8/27/2010 8:14:09 PM)

Ok, seems like we have a consensus. The infantry will press forward, moving a bit further into the woods (especially the halftracks). The Panzers will focus on defeating the T-70s, then one section will move to support the infantry if I can find a way to keep them out of sight of the T-34. Running the next turn in a few minutes...

Just as an idea, would anyone like to be a platoon commander? I'll put your name in the AAR and give your advice more weight with regard to that platoon's actions. If anyone would like to volunteer to add their name to a particular platoon, just let me know. We have the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Panzergrenadier Platoons and the Panzer IIIL Platoon.

Regards,

- Erik



Erik Rutins -> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov (8/27/2010 8:19:01 PM)

Here are the plots for the Reaction phase. Because moving units are easier to spot and because we want to keep our Panzergrenadiers safe, in preparation for the change of orders I used my Reaction to halt the movement of 3rd platoon as well as the halftracks that were right behind 2nd platoon near the edge of the woods. I kept the infantry moving. When we get to the Orders phase, I'll change the orders on those halftracks to get them deeper into the woods. Woods in winter are still not the best cover, but at this range being a bit further in should keep us out of sight.



[image]local://upfiles/9/3CCF624CC59E48F5B26DCD3245E1AE8A.jpg[/image]



Erik Rutins -> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov (8/27/2010 8:24:40 PM)

As you can see from the battle log for the Reaction phase, we really scored a lot of good hits on the T-70s. We were actually unlucky to not get some outright kills here, but one T-70 was abandoned and we may have scored enough damage on the others to see more of that in the turn ahead. The bad news is that we spotted another T-70. Turns out there were at least six of them, so we've still got four left at this point, most of which have taken some hits.

The other bit of bad news is that our rightmost panzer (which you can see is now buttoned) took a track hit. This will slow it down for the rest of the scenario.

Everything else happened according to plan, putting in Orders now and will run the next full turn.



[image]local://upfiles/9/9AED32EEDF8D46B6B9C171B1506757A8.jpg[/image]



Erik Rutins -> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov (8/27/2010 8:33:31 PM)

Here are the plots for Turn 7.

Two of the advancing T-70s found an interesting tactical position. They moved ahead to where the farmhouse is blocking the rest of our platoon from engaging them, while they have a nice keyhole shot on the Panzer that took a track hit. They're stationary there engaging one of our IIILs in a 2:1 fight. We should probably withdraw that Panzer to try to draw them out, but I'll let it ride for one more phase. I think some maneuvering by our Panzers next turn may be necessary if we want to finish off those T-70s.



[image]local://upfiles/9/E79D4CEC84844A9BAB8DA9C700A1243E.jpg[/image]



Erik Rutins -> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov (8/27/2010 8:38:30 PM)

Ok, some more good news and bad news!

The good news is that the morale on the T-70 platoon broke. Most of the T-70s started backing up to withdaw and we took them out as they were trying to pull back. Only one T-70 is remaining (we think), which is behind the small isba there where I've circled the question mark. It's no longer targeting us - we can't see each other, so we don't know its state.

The bad news is that this tank duel used up a fair amount of ammunition. A few of the Panzers were getting low enough on AP that they switched to APCR for the last few shots and one is low on that now as well. Ammo conservation should probably be a consideration in our future plans as we will not be able to take out that T-34 without sufficient APCR.



[image]local://upfiles/9/A63645187B4C421F933D0E0D84D5A757.jpg[/image]



Erik Rutins -> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov (8/27/2010 8:40:54 PM)

The reorganization move in the woods is proceeding well. No enemy contact so far and we have not been sighted (as far as we can tell).

I'll let things run for one more turn to let these orders complete before asking for more advice.



[image]local://upfiles/9/5A7C8E35A2CA4089BD448A05314FA7FD.jpg[/image]



Erik Rutins -> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov (8/27/2010 8:54:26 PM)

Ok, the next turn passes uneventfully. Our Panzers still can't see the remaining T-70, but one of our infantry squads in the woods helps us out by spotting it. It's lurking there behind the house. We can't tell if it's damaged or not, but right now it's not moving.

Meanwhile the halftracks are just about done with their reorganization move and our infantry is getting tired. We're still tweaking the stamina and fatigue rules for infantry, so I can't give you the details yet except to say that resting them for a full turn now would be a good idea. The rushing and bounding in the woods has left us with fairly low stamina at present, so if we want to continue to sweep the woods dismounted, a pause would be helpful.

I'll also pause here for further advice. Do we want to try to hunt down that last T-70? Should we go ahead and send off that section of Panzers to help the infantry now before they move into the village? Do we give the infantry a rest break or keep pushing them forward (I would advise the former)?

Here's the current situation map. You can also see that after that duel with the T-70s, our victory bar is now above the Soviet victory bar, even though they still hold the two main objectives. We only gave up a small number of points there for taking that damaging track hit to one of our Panzer IIILs, while they lost five T-70s (and probably one more damaged) in exchange.




[image]local://upfiles/9/8B69BA29F8E941CC984FC82531971091.jpg[/image]



Peterk1 -> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov (8/27/2010 10:51:15 PM)

I wouldn't want to move the PzIII's up too much more before the infantry get further up. I'd rather scout with the infantry.
Infantry rest...Is the reserve platoon tired? Can we push 3rd ahead of 1 on the right while 1 and 2 rest? I'd hate to not make any progress on getting through the woods.
Maybe get the Pz III's to spread out wide, so that T-34 has to rotate turret further to get shots. If there's only one we'll be able to swarm it, if we're not too tightly spaced.

Anyone feel like sending one HT right up to the entrance of the village? It'll let us know how much of a rush we should be in. This is 30 turns long right?



british exil -> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov (8/27/2010 10:53:45 PM)

Couldn't you put a few Inf squads in the halftracks to transport them a bit? Or do you lose time loading and unloading? Because if you rest them they will still be tired when they eventually reach the village.

If you see part of the village empty you could then the rush the loaded halftracks into the village and take control of the crossroads.

The T-70 might just be part of an advancing party. So far not many "guns" have been spotted that can harm you. Or have I missed something?

Mat



dazoline II -> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov (8/28/2010 1:01:29 AM)

Trading 1st for 3rd and having 1st continue while the other infantry rest is a good idea.
Looks like some houses will come into view from the road soon, probably a good idea to have at least one carrier overlook near the road.

I'm wondering where that T-34 went. Is it possible to move the tanks towards the village and come to a hull down aspect to where the T-34 was and halt? If they all sit where they are they maybe out of position to stop a flank attack on the troops in the wood.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov (8/28/2010 1:10:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Peterk1
Infantry rest...Is the reserve platoon tired? Can we push 3rd ahead of 1 on the right while 1 and 2 rest? I'd hate to not make any progress on getting through the woods.


The 3rd platoon is fully rested, they've been riding on the halftracks. We could certainly push them ahead.

quote:

Couldn't you put a few Inf squads in the halftracks to transport them a bit? Or do you lose time loading and unloading? Because if you rest them they will still be tired when they eventually reach the village.


Yes, we could definitely load 1st and or 2nd back in their halftracks for a bit, no real time loss for that, other than making sure they are close enough to load up.

quote:

If you see part of the village empty you could then the rush the loaded halftracks into the village and take control of the crossroads.
The T-70 might just be part of an advancing party. So far not many "guns" have been spotted that can harm you. Or have I missed something?


We could rush ahead into the village, though we do not yet know if it is empty or not. We don't have visibility into the village from where we are with any of our platoons. No AT guns spotted so far, but they are generally hard to spot.

quote:

I'm wondering where that T-34 went. Is it possible to move the tanks towards the village and come to a hull down aspect to where the T-34 was and halt? If they all sit where they are they maybe out of position to stop a flank attack on the troops in the wood.


Yes, I could move them to a hull down position near the crest of that field. They would probably be able to see the T-34 from there, but they would also probably be outside the effective APCR engagement range for the Panzer IIIL vs. the T-34's front armor.

There is no actual turn limit on this scenario, just the indication in the briefing that if we take too long the Soviets may get established.

Regards,

- Erik



Tophat1815 -> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov (8/28/2010 2:23:21 AM)


I'd move the PIIIL's up to hull down position on the hill so they can scan and interdict the open space between where the Russian entry area and the town. You may get lucky and catch a T-34 in transit to the town with a flank shot. At worst you make your presence known,make any tank put its front armor toward you and impede movement to the town so your infantry can get into the buildings.

If there are not too many Red tanks headed for town,pull 2 Pz-IIIL's off the hill,run them to the road and support your infantry on a dash into town.

Remember you are supposed to be SS officer von Ballsy and you don't cower from the Bolsheviks!



Erik Rutins -> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov (8/28/2010 3:12:12 AM)

Hi guys,

Rick will be taking over for a day tomorrow, keep the feedback coming!

I'll be back on Sunday to run another turn then.

Regards,

- Erik



jamespcrowley -> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov (8/28/2010 5:09:44 PM)

What! The grenadiers are tired! They haven't done anything yet. Is it a girl-guides company?

I would be very disinclined to send a halftrack anywhere near the village without an infantry squad well in front of it - recon by death.

If the girls really need to rest, bring up 3rd platoon to where 1 and 2 are, dismount and have them move towards the village straddling the road.

A section of 111Ls needs to move generally in the direction of the town, but not too near, with the dual view of trying to spot the T34 and put fire into the village, if required. The HQ and remaining panzer section should be moving slowly forward also, to expand their LoS while remaining hull down.



junk2drive -> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov (8/28/2010 5:22:13 PM)

In post 62 and 75 you may have noticed the new fatigue symbol. Clear is normal, yellow and red increasing fatigue.



Tophat1815 -> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov (8/28/2010 9:55:12 PM)


Come-on already do your one turn,make a mess and let Eric save your bacon! Either that or release the game so I can buy it and start screwing up royal on my own...[:D]



rickier65 -> RE: Semi-Interactive AAR: Return Road to Kharkov (8/28/2010 10:23:22 PM)

With Major Rutins called back to the rear to talk to the Col. he's asked me to press on. looking over the ground and knowing the condition of the men in the 1st and 2nd Platoon, I decide to have them hold their postions while I pass the 3rd platoon forward. I can see a place to stop and dismount up ahead.

Rick

[image]local://upfiles/91/461715112C69457280A59F78BEE10C9F.jpg[/image]



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