RE: Winter Idea......Comment (Full Version)

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Redmarkus5 -> RE: Winter Idea......Comment (2/26/2011 7:11:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

I REALLY hate to say this, but for me the game is broken.  There I said it publicly.  I bought the game, so I am out the $100 dollars, but if many of the issues are not fixed, I just won't play it.  I bought it when it first came out, very excited, and at first I was very pleased till I played it more and more, then the detail problems start to show up.  I have read and posted on several threads about the following listed issues, and will not go into detail:
1.  German Winter loses in 41-42 due to Blizzard used as the primary game balancing tool in the game: the big deal breaker for me
2.  Super Germans in summer, super Russians in winter: deal breaker
3.  The attrition loses come back with lower morale, lower trained: deal breaker
4.  The Isolation model does not ring true to me: don't like it, but can live with it
5.  Combat model seems a bit off, but still "ok"....but I think is the key to fixing the biggest probems of 1 and 2.

I would support the 2nd ACR's idea, at least it does something to fix the problem.

I just hope the Devs are reading and planning to tweak, change/fix these problems, which I have confidence they will be addressed at some point, and until them I will play WitP:AE.



Strong words, but I basically agree with you, although it felt like that for me from Day 1.

I gave up playing vs. the AI long ago, but I do enjoy the PBEM experience. The main problem is that the war is basically over by '42, even in PBEM mode.

My list of issues is much longer (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2653027) and the devs seem to just ignore me - I wasn't polite enough for their tastes.

Great game concept, lovely visual presentation and game dynamics, some serious bugs that are being addressed and some major design issues that nobody wants to deal with - all you hear is "it's WAD"...



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Winter Idea......Comment (2/26/2011 7:13:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Well, isn't one of the problems obvious from what you wrote - that snow and blizz turns are just too different, like night and day, when in reality they are pretty similar. And they are applied over ALL map, every single hex. My last game looked so contrived and gamey. October, Germans stop. 5 turns of mud, not one attack. Last two turns of mud, Russians crawling like zombies towards me, they are not attacking because they have psychic powers so they know what is about to happen so why waste energy attacking. First turn of blizzard: 99 attacks (90% successful). Forts falling down like cards. Very contrived, gamey and artificial.

Simplified weather model that applies mud accross all map (no hex is spared), then blizzard in same manner, is in BIG part to blame.

Then after mud we have this blizzard, that is so easily abused by Sov player, lasts for three months over every single hex etc.

To me the biggest problem is the weather model.

- We need more randomness in weather.
- More "granulation", difference between hexes or far more weather zones.
- Less pre-programmed weather.
- Less difference between snow and blizz.
- Blizzard lasting NO MORE than 5 turns UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES. 13 turns of this silliness turns even the best games into comedy.



100% correct



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Winter Idea......Comment (2/26/2011 7:24:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zebedee
Forgive a silly question, but what game penalties do the Soviets suffer in winter and do they adequately reflect the difficulties the SU had both in movement and supplying units (outside of inherent logistic weakness) and the non-combat losses taken?

Movement penalties apply to both sides


These are not "penalties" per se, just the regular rules for moving over specific terrain. You don't expect them to fly over snow and ice etc? [;)]



Mynok -> RE: Winter Idea......Comment (2/26/2011 7:45:23 PM)


quote:

3.  The attrition loses come back with lower morale, lower trained: deal breaker


This has been corrected.



Apollo11 -> RE: Winter Idea......Comment (2/26/2011 7:58:25 PM)

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

I REALLY hate to say this, but for me the game is broken.  There I said it publicly.  I bought the game, so I am out the $100 dollars, but if many of the issues are not fixed, I just won't play it.  I bought it when it first came out, very excited, and at first I was very pleased till I played it more and more, then the detail problems start to show up.  I have read and posted on several threads about the following listed issues, and will not go into detail:
1.  German Winter loses in 41-42 due to Blizzard used as the primary game balancing tool in the game: the big deal breaker for me
2.  Super Germans in summer, super Russians in winter: deal breaker
3.  The attrition loses come back with lower morale, lower trained: deal breaker
4.  The Isolation model does not ring true to me: don't like it, but can live with it
5.  Combat model seems a bit off, but still "ok"....but I think is the key to fixing the biggest probems of 1 and 2.

I would support the 2nd ACR's idea, at least it does something to fix the problem.

I just hope the Devs are reading and planning to tweak, change/fix these problems, which I have confidence they will be addressed at some point, and until them I will play WitP:AE.


Guys... if you are not satisfied with Barbarossa (for whatever personal reasons) there is 1942-1945 campaign provided... [;)]


Leo "Apollo11"



Angelo -> RE: Winter Idea......Comment (2/26/2011 8:08:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

I REALLY hate to say this, but for me the game is broken.  There I said it publicly.  I bought the game, so I am out the $100 dollars, but if many of the issues are not fixed, I just won't play it.  I bought it when it first came out, very excited, and at first I was very pleased till I played it more and more, then the detail problems start to show up.  I have read and posted on several threads about the following listed issues, and will not go into detail:
1.  German Winter loses in 41-42 due to Blizzard used as the primary game balancing tool in the game: the big deal breaker for me
2.  Super Germans in summer, super Russians in winter: deal breaker
3.  The attrition loses come back with lower morale, lower trained: deal breaker
4.  The Isolation model does not ring true to me: don't like it, but can live with it
5.  Combat model seems a bit off, but still "ok"....but I think is the key to fixing the biggest probems of 1 and 2.

I would support the 2nd ACR's idea, at least it does something to fix the problem.

I just hope the Devs are reading and planning to tweak, change/fix these problems, which I have confidence they will be addressed at some point, and until them I will play WitP:AE.



Strong words, but I basically agree with you, although it felt like that for me from Day 1.

I gave up playing vs. the AI long ago, but I do enjoy the PBEM experience. The main problem is that the war is basically over by '42, even in PBEM mode.

My list of issues is much longer (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2653027) and the devs seem to just ignore me - I wasn't polite enough for their tastes.

Great game concept, lovely visual presentation and game dynamics, some serious bugs that are being addressed and some major design issues that nobody wants to deal with - all you hear is "it's WAD"...


Agreed. [:(]

It will be a long time (next expansion maybe) that the campaign game(s) will be worth playing. Way too many problems.

I do find the shorter scenario's interesting. The victory conditions are more attainable and the balance issues more managable. Hopefully there will be more and better scenarios coming.

However I purchased the game because of the grand campaign not the scenarios. [:@] (I was an avid War in Europe (SPI) fanboy!)



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Winter Idea......Comment (2/26/2011 8:22:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
Guys... if you are not satisfied with Barbarossa (for whatever personal reasons) there is 1942-1945 campaign provided...


In 42 scenario Germans have atrocious starting positions that spell "rape me". Of course, they were historically like that.

What I am trying to say is, FOR ME main reason to play 41 full campaign is not to win outright, but rather the fact I believe I can get BETTER than history German positions by spring 42, then slowly retreat and win on points in 45.

However, current mechanics prevent the German player from getting better positions by spring 42. Read the AARs, even the Germans that played excellent campaign in 41, that deserved to win the game in 42, were pushed back to the ridicolous extent during winter, making their advances pointless.

GC is unplayable currently, but hey, I blame myself for jumping into it too early. Game as complex as this needs months and months to mature, so.... I have hope.



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Winter Idea......Comment (2/26/2011 8:34:55 PM)

We have yet to see a AAR of a campaign played after the higher cost to evacuate factories, the soviet manpower limits toned down, and the replacement problems fixed - as always, more time is needed to digest this all.



Senno -> RE: Winter Idea......Comment (2/26/2011 8:36:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

We have yet to see a AAR of a campaign played after the higher cost to evacuate factories, the soviet manpower limits toned down, and the replacement problems fixed - as always, more time is needed to digest this all.


+1.



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Winter Idea......Comment (2/26/2011 8:50:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

We have yet to see a AAR of a campaign played after the higher cost to evacuate factories, the soviet manpower limits toned down, and the replacement problems fixed - as always, more time is needed to digest this all.


I play(ed) two games vs human under those circumstances, and those are the two I refer to when I say I cancelled them due to blizz silliness. I just didn't write the AARs.

In German game I took Moscow, Lenin and Harkov, with ALL industry in Moscow and Harkow (most industrialized cities on the map) and about half in Lenin. That huge T-34 factory is GONE. Il-2 factories in Moscow gone, etc.

(Now I admit I did that due to "superhuman summer German" syndrome, which is also a problem, but not for this thread)

I truely believe that under those circumstances Sov position should be so bad as to lead to auto victory or simply human player giving up. If he continues, the only reasonable ending should be German victory in 42, I see no realistically possible other outcome.

First turn of blizz comes. 64 Sov attacks end in Axis retreat, 1 in rout, 1 in surrender, 4 are hold. Level 3 forts with SS divs turn into a pile of scrap. Enough said. I simply refuse to play that joke of a game (I admire Q-Ball for his tenacity to suffer for the sake of science but I don't have that in me [:D]). By the end of this blizz comedy I would probably be back on Dnepr....

My other PBEM is as Sov - I had no trouble evacing factories, my opponent advaced somewhat further than in our previous game but I promise I would have slaughtered him come bilzzards much worse than I did in our previous game (see 2ndACR vs Oleg in AAR section). To be fair, I stopped both games, I don't want to play this winter comedy from either side.

I may write up more detailed AAR if I get the promise that based on our sacrifice in the name of science something will actually change [:D]





Mynok -> RE: Winter Idea......Comment (2/26/2011 8:54:46 PM)


You won't get any promises, but you definitely won't make any headway by not doing AARs.



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Winter Idea......Comment (2/26/2011 9:02:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


You won't get any promises, but you definitely won't make any headway by not doing AARs.



You have Q-Ball's AAR, if THAT is not enough to convince you blizzard is a JOKE I don't know what will ever be.

My German experience, if anything, is even worse than his. I took FAR MORE than him (Moscow + all factories in Harkov and Moscow because my opponent was simply reluctant to move them). I should have been much closer to simple victory in 42. The mistake of not moving those huge factories should really be enough to spell Russian defeat, even if we disregard everything else. Come blizzards, and Sov is superhuman as in any other game every played, and would push me back to Dnepr if I was to continue that travesty, which I wasn't, because frankly posting on a forum is more fun than playing ATM [:D].

My Sov experience is no better (I mean, no better from realism standpoint, it is better from a gaming standpoint in that I am the one delivering the pain not receiving it [;)])



randallw -> RE: Winter Idea......Comment (2/26/2011 9:14:48 PM)

I am not quite sure that destroying factories in two or three heavy urban hexes, which the Soviets managed to evac in real events, will break the back of their equipment production.

We have yet to see how well the Germans recover frontline strength post-blizzard, with the 1.03 beta 6.



Mynok -> RE: Winter Idea......Comment (2/26/2011 9:17:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


You won't get any promises, but you definitely won't make any headway by not doing AARs.



You have Q-Ball's AAR, if THAT is not enough to convince you blizzard is a JOKE I don't know what will ever be.

My German experience, if anything, is even worse than his. I took FAR MORE than him (Moscow + all factories in Harkov and Moscow because my opponent was simply reluctant to move them). I should have been much closer to simple victory in 42. The mistake of not moving those huge factories should really be enough to spell Russian defeat, even if we disregard everything else. Come blizzards, and Sov is superhuman as in any other game every played, and would push me back to Dnepr if I was to continue that travesty, which I wasn't, because frankly posting on a forum is more fun than playing ATM [:D].

My Sov experience is no better (I mean, no better from realism standpoint, it is better from a gaming standpoint in that I am the one delivering the pain not receiving it [;)])



You don't have to convince me. But whining about the developers not listening when you are not overwhelming them with evidence sounds like slinging mud not real interest in making the game better.



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Winter Idea......Comment (2/26/2011 9:20:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw
We have yet to see how well the Germans recover frontline strength post-blizzard, with the 1.03 beta 6.


You mean how well the recover on the Dnepr, pushed back 30 hexes, or how well they recover somewhere else?

Winter mechanics are huge problem before we even get to the issue (or non issue) of German recovery.



cookie monster -> RE: Winter Idea......Comment (2/26/2011 9:22:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

I am not quite sure that destroying factories in two or three heavy urban hexes, which the Soviets managed to evac in real events, will break the back of their equipment production.

We have yet to see how well the Germans recover frontline strength post-blizzard, with the 1.03 beta 6.


and whats in the factories...aircraft noone uses... tanks that strain the motor pool, armoured cars,...even armament factories is no problem with the late war excess



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Winter Idea......Comment (2/26/2011 9:24:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok
You don't have to convince me. But whining about the developers not listening when you are not overwhelming them with evidence sounds like slinging mud not real interest in making the game better.


Just for the record, I am not whining about developers not listening.

In fact I am sure they are listening, and I do hope the GC will be playable one day. In fact I clearly stated I blame *myself* for jumping into GC this early, when I should have known that games as complex as this take months if not years to polish.

But that does not change the fact that the GC in it's current state is IMO indeed unplayable. It's the 41-winter 42 period that is unplayable, the rest of the campaign(s) might be OK for all I know.



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Winter Idea......Comment (2/26/2011 9:27:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


You won't get any promises, but you definitely won't make any headway by not doing AARs.



You have Q-Ball's AAR, if THAT is not enough to convince you blizzard is a JOKE I don't know what will ever be.

My German experience, if anything, is even worse than his. I took FAR MORE than him (Moscow + all factories in Harkov and Moscow because my opponent was simply reluctant to move them). I should have been much closer to simple victory in 42. The mistake of not moving those huge factories should really be enough to spell Russian defeat, even if we disregard everything else. Come blizzards, and Sov is superhuman as in any other game every played, and would push me back to Dnepr if I was to continue that travesty, which I wasn't, because frankly posting on a forum is more fun than playing ATM [:D].

My Sov experience is no better (I mean, no better from realism standpoint, it is better from a gaming standpoint in that I am the one delivering the pain not receiving it [;)])



You don't have to convince me. But whining about the developers not listening when you are not overwhelming them with evidence sounds like slinging mud not real interest in making the game better.



What really baffles me is WHY we need to "overwhelm them with evidence". It's not as if Matrix, Gary or the testers are new to this type of game, to WW2 or to the East Front. Why are we even having this discussion three months in?



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Winter Idea......Comment (2/26/2011 9:29:52 PM)

I could ask how the game got launched with such obvious and fundamental issues (AI logic and GC winter effects), but I don't want to upset anyone, so I won't.



cookie monster -> RE: Winter Idea......Comment (2/26/2011 9:35:18 PM)

Im sure they'll iron out all the creases like they did with War in the Pacific Admirals Edition. I think there doing a good job considering how small 2by3 are.



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Winter Idea......Comment (2/26/2011 9:36:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

I could ask how the game got launched with such obvious and fundamental issues (AI logic and GC winter effects), but I don't want to upset anyone, so I won't.


I believe you just did. I personally am on the "I still don't know how to play this game" side of the fence, I have only owned it for 3 months.



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Winter Idea......Comment (2/26/2011 9:41:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch


quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

I could ask how the game got launched with such obvious and fundamental issues (AI logic and GC winter effects), but I don't want to upset anyone, so I won't.


I believe you just did. I personally am on the "I still don't know how to play this game" side of the fence, I have only owned it for 3 months.


Cute. But I'm afraid the issues are obvious and many people are now posting on the same issues. I have yet to see a coherent reply from the developers that deals with the key issues.

If you look at the AAR thread you will see that I play this game enthusiastically and regularly. I am not a 'hater', I am a very disappointed lover of the genre with 40 year's gaming experience behind me.



Zort -> RE: Winter Idea......Comment (2/26/2011 9:42:04 PM)

How about this as a house rule:

No soviet attacks in Jan and only the first two weeks of Feb?  Or something like that? 

(Gee I can't wait for the Total WW2 game to come out and see the production thread...)



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Winter Idea......Comment (2/26/2011 9:48:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Cute. But I'm afraid the issues are obvious and many people are now posting on the same issues. I have yet to see a coherent reply from the developers that deals with the key issues.

If you look at the AAR thread you will see that I play this game enthusiastically and regularly. I am not a 'hater', I am a very disappointed lover of the genre with 40 year's gaming experience behind me.

I was not trying for cute, but thanks for noticing.

What I was trying for is that there has been quite good response to issues raised so far, and that if one reads the threads the serious issues are indeed being discussed by the developers but cannot be detailed here because of NDAs...patience is indeed a virtue.



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Winter Idea......Comment (2/26/2011 10:09:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch


quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Cute. But I'm afraid the issues are obvious and many people are now posting on the same issues. I have yet to see a coherent reply from the developers that deals with the key issues.

If you look at the AAR thread you will see that I play this game enthusiastically and regularly. I am not a 'hater', I am a very disappointed lover of the genre with 40 year's gaming experience behind me.

I was not trying for cute, but thanks for noticing.

What I was trying for is that there has been quite good response to issues raised so far, and that if one reads the threads the serious issues are indeed being discussed by the developers but cannot be detailed here because of NDAs...patience is indeed a virtue.



Fair enough and no offence intended. But I paid $100 dollars for a game that simply isn't ready for general release. I'm a customer, not a friendly tester. I'm entitled to expect quality and I'm entitled to complain when it's lacking. And it is lacking.

Why should I have to play the campaign 2-3 times before I can have a half decent experience and a game that runs through to, say, 1944?

Am I the only person who thinks this way? Surely not...

Patience is a virtue, that's true, but identifying glaring design faults and obvious bugs, and fixing them before release is a commercial responsibility. It's called quality control and if you want to charge premium prices you need to supply premium quality :)



karonagames -> RE: Winter Idea......Comment (2/26/2011 10:24:40 PM)

quote:

First turn of blizz comes. 64 Sov attacks end in Axis retreat, 1 in rout, 1 in surrender, 4 are hold. Level 3 forts with SS divs turn into a pile of scrap. Enough said. I simply refuse to play that joke of a game (I admire Q-Ball for his tenacity to suffer for the sake of science but I don't have that in me ). By the end of this blizz comedy I would probably be back on Dnepr....


60 hexes x 13 turns is 780 hexes divided by a 120-130 hex long front line means that the front line will move west 6 hexes on average. In March the Axis can make 60 attacks per turn for 3 turns and take back 1.5 hexes on average. Net loss 4.5 hexes - 45 miles. How many AARs have shown how well the Axis recover in March and how much territory they can take back?

I made 68 attacks in the first blizzard turn against Speedy, the 2nd turn 40, because 1/3 of my front line went unready from the attacks made in the first turn of Blizzard. If 60 units are attacked and retreated, that means the rest of the army was not attacked and retreated, so it still takes 2 turns to retreat the whole army 1 hex assuming a 120hex front.

Just a few facts and figures to hopefully help keep a sense of perspective on this issue.

Discussions and debate on changes to the first winter rule are ongoing, and it looks like Speedy may well be the guinea pig for testing any changes - poor guy!




Zort -> RE: Winter Idea......Comment (2/26/2011 10:53:19 PM)

My opponent focused on 2 areas to conduct his major attacks.  Mid Jan he started attacking across the whole front.  Feb was the worse month in losing ground for me but he still pushed with just about everything that wasn't unready he told me.  March came and with what the few panzers I had and three fresh inf divs I kicked him back in many places mainly because he had no forts.  Turn 2 of march I ran into his lvl 2 fort line and made hardly if any progress.  Don't know where you got the units to attack in march, I had to use my panzers in Feb to plug holes and have little to attack with in march.  So regaining ground in March I don't see unless your panzers are all healthy.

Oh yea I forgot, all my inf divs showed a cv of 1 or if I was lucky 2. Maybe I should have attacked with them but figured since most were at 40% TOE I should let them build up.



karonagames -> RE: Winter Idea......Comment (2/26/2011 11:17:37 PM)

quote:

So regaining ground in March I don't see unless your panzers are all healthy.


Practice makes perfect! It took me 3 Blizzards to figure out the ways and means to reduce losses, reduce the amount of territory I gave up, and increase the amount of territory I took back. I have done my best to pass on the benefits of my experience, but I can't take away the sense of shock that some people experience when they see the first winter rules translated from the manual into the game. I just keep reminding myself, that what we experience in a virtual world is nothing compared to what the historical participants had to go through.




Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Winter Idea......Comment (2/26/2011 11:54:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
60 hexes x 13 turns is 780 hexes divided by a 120-130 hex long front line means that the front line will move west 6 hexes on average.


Quite a simplified calculation. Did you read the Q-Ball's AAR? His front is collapsed and he is in complete retreat, losing I don't know, perhaps 20-30 hexes along the line. Gaps opened are so huge Sovs exploit and whole front needs to be rearranged etc. I don't want to be his mouthpiece, do see his AAR. And if anyone did his Axis homework it was him. Oh in fact I think I did my homework even better than him but since I didn't write AAR I use Q-Balls as "Oleg AAR lite". [:D] Go read Q-Balls AAR then add 20-30% to his advances and factory captures and that's pretty much my AAR.

BTW 66 out of 70 is 94% success rate. I didn't keep notes for Axis first turn, but I bet it's not far from that. That's the first turn of blizzard attacks on most rested troops and their best prepared positions (mostly level 3). The following turns, with attacks on troops in the open, damaged by attrition, can only be worse.

Those are sustained attacks on units who suffer retreat losses, combat losses PLUS attrition losses. By turn 7-8 of my own blizz experience as Soviet I was literally walking thru ACRs defence at will. It didn't feel right but I thought that's because ACR didn't do his pre-winter homework. Now I see that no amount of homework will help, it just does not matter.

quote:

In March the Axis can make 60 attacks per turn for 3 turns and take back 1.5 hexes on average. Net loss 4.5 hexes - 45 miles. How many AARs have shown how well the Axis recover in March and how much territory they can take back?


Again, very simplified. By march what Axis sees is usually a wall, or several walls of level 3 forts without any supermen rules to help them. Just for the record, I would NOT like to see any help for the Axis.

In fact I am fed up already with "supermanism" in this game for both sides. It's just that the current "hate list" of supermen is topped by "Sov Winter 41 supermen" but IMO "German summer supermen" follow closely. Up to March 42 we have two waves of supermen from both sides, broken by a period of "Superman Mud", just so that the results can be tweaked to (kinda sorta) follow history but in fact they just invite abuse! That's two periods of blatantly one sided play, that only Flavio apparently thinks can be broken with counterattacking.

quote:

Discussions and debate on changes to the first winter rule are ongoing, and it looks like Speedy may well be the guinea pig for testing any changes - poor guy!


Good to know, but since you seem to talk about beta testing board, we cannot comment until you let the cat out of the bag.



Mynok -> RE: Winter Idea......Comment (2/26/2011 11:54:40 PM)


You testers need to do more AARs with your test games so we can see how really and truly experienced Axis players play.




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