RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (Full Version)

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TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/20/2011 10:57:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Nice job T-D, but you seem to have a knack for selecting opponents who are not worried about flank security...



Have to agree here. He is aggressive and hits hard but each time he leaves himself vulnerable to TD's counterstrokes. While these counterstrokes do little damage, each time they effectively give TD a free turn to shore up his defense.

Fantastic AAR. TD makes it clear that I must get more aggressive in my Russian defense. When I command the Russians I keep seeing where I am vulnerable, but TD sees where the Germans are vulnerable. Good lesson. [&o]

OTOH, I would love to see a PDH/TD AAR [sm=00000436.gif] (and isn't that a lot of alphabet soup [:D])


Well, I always try to find a weak spot, of course. To me the essential thing is concentrating my forces to meet the most dangerous threat. Once I realize where the main threat is (and that's the easy part in fact) I concentrate my forces around them and obviously try to find a weak link and attack there [8D] So it's all about driving my poor pixel truppen crazy: reserves from A to B then to C. A lot of tchouk tchouk.

Yes, you MUST be agressive (NOT a kamikaze though). Always. That or let the Germans have a free ride (until blizzard, of course) [:)]



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/20/2011 11:09:05 PM)

To be honest, TD, I love it when the Soviets concentrate around my main threat (and I am usually far more concentrated than you are seeing), because that means more for me to slice up and surround.  But then, I suspect you would react differently to me than others, you tailor your defense to the opponent as well.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/20/2011 11:27:22 PM)

You are possibly right, PeeDeeAitch [:)] Maybe the answer is what Sabre said: one line then another one, then another. I think he said up to 6 (to protect Moscow). But it's still the same principle: it's about concentrating your forces to meet the main threat.

I mean, if the most dangerous enemy units attack in the center and you want to stop them, you MUST concentrate your forces in the center. You have no other choice. I mean, the Soviets are not going to send their forces to minor, less vital fronts. How you concentrate them is another story though [8D]

That's what both the Germans and Soviets did on 1941 by the way: concentrating their forces in the center.



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/20/2011 11:32:32 PM)

[:)]  My problem is that sometimes I concentrate in the center then I go and attack Stalino. I think right now you are playing the best Soviet defense in an AAR, so I would have to run amok just to make any headway!



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/20/2011 11:42:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

[:)]  My problem is that sometimes I concentrate in the center then I go and attack Stalino. I think right now you are playing the best Soviet defense in an AAR, so I would have to run amok just to make any headway!


But is that a problem if you attack Stalino? The Panzers are hard to hide [:)] And even if you manage to do that, the Soviet player will know they are hiding... and that automatically means your opponent has new [and perhaps] scary plans. Believe me, redeploying Red Army divisions IS incredibly easy. Many Soviet reserves are waiting for your armored forces on your next stop. Name the place you want, there will be hordes awaiting [8D] No magic tricks, simply concentrate the forces.



Klydon -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/20/2011 11:52:19 PM)

The first assignment for a lot of those troops coming in should be 2 turns digging someplace so they can come up to strength before being committed to battle IMO. Only the 26th rifle division looks ready for battle someplace.

Sort of surprised you pull back so hard up by Leningrad. you gave up some level 3 forts and the Luga line is not really that well fortified yet. In essence, he will get half the distance to Leningrad in 1 turn. Will see how it works out in the long run, but I think you had him pretty well slowed/stopped until you pulled back.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/21/2011 12:10:39 AM)

Klydon, I thought more or less exactly the same thing when I opened my turn [:)] Perhaps I retreated too much. Maybe halfway was enough [:)] I saw the Panzers fuel soft factor was green and then thought they had many MPs and would end up surrounding me. My opponent had been very quiet so I was waiting for some agressive reaction (he is agressive). That would have been catastrophic. So I decided to be prudent. I hope I will manage to save Leningrad. If I don't, this could be the reason. If my opponent doesn't capture it, his adventure in the bottleneck should haunt him (4 lost turns) [:D]

A mistake? More than possible. The fact is I still don't know 100% when and where I am safe. And that's vital as the Soviets if you want to slow the enemy down (aka you are close to Panzers, like gazelles to the lion) AND still avoid encirclements.




randallw -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/21/2011 1:04:42 AM)

Sometimes the new rifle divisions fill out with sappers fairly quickly, but it still takes about 5 turns to get close to full rifle squads.



76mm -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/21/2011 6:19:21 AM)

Wow, low losses. 2ACR is going to have major problems with you in a few months.

And what's with the drive on Orel? You know you want to take them out!



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/21/2011 4:57:10 PM)

OK, so this is more or less what I'm planning for Leningrad. Perhaps only 70% done: more, I want more, I want much more! [sm=00000622.gif]

As you can see there's a huge carpet of defenders. The idea is that the 3 armies I mentioned would be fighting. The hordes behind them will be assigned to 2 or 3 STAVKA armies. I don't want to overload the Northern Front, already overloaded, but not that much. These armies will get lots of RR Brigades. So yes, I want them to dig --along with the local population [8D]

The units in the marshes southwest of Novgorod might be very useful. His infantry should be working there, he can't let them behind. And even maybe his panzers turn towards Novgorod to form a pocket and eliminate these units. Either way, that should buy me 1 vital turn minimum, I think.

More in the south, part of his AGN infantry seems to be clearing the area south of Lake Ilmen, to link [?] with the other panzers near the Valdai Hills (right hook?). So there's some more bait there as well (aka buy one turn minimum). I mean, as long as they are not fighting along the Luga River and forward I am happy.

I am starting to think that I might save Leningrad. But I am not good at guessing things [:)]

P.S.: if you think I forgot to cover some hex of the carpet, please let me know [sm=00000622.gif]

[image]local://upfiles/11562/1E3E0F37D85542F4975E2A528ECE66CA.jpg[/image]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/21/2011 5:09:05 PM)

And seen from above LOL I guess the astronauts in orbit would see this horde!

[image]local://upfiles/11562/B0C7001C163D4106ACB18BF41B09718C.jpg[/image]



Q-Ball -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/21/2011 5:57:47 PM)

There is no chance at all Leningrad falls, not with those hordes there.

I need to play the Soviets pretty soon, looks like fun



76mm -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/21/2011 6:10:10 PM)

I'm amazed at the number of units you have...I lost lots of units in the south (well, everywhere really) and was really scraping to pull together any kind of coherent line.




TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/21/2011 8:46:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

There is no chance at all Leningrad falls, not with those hordes there.

I need to play the Soviets pretty soon, looks like fun


Yes, it's a lot of fun. The first 17 turns are a KO tournament. One of the boxers has to hit the canvas [8D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I'm amazed at the number of units you have...I lost lots of units in the south (well, everywhere really) and was really scraping to pull together any kind of coherent line.


I have the units everyone has [:)] And my Southwestern Front was totally annihilated during the Frontier District Massacres. Otherwise I could have minimum 20 more divisions to put to good use here and there [X(] Yes, it can be done (I diverted that number of divisions on my other game and the front was still decent.

What I see on most Soviet AARs is that players form a uniform front line. Yes, having a continuous front line is important, but uniformity is a big mistake. You are weak everywhere [:)]

As I see it, as the Soviets you have to pay attention to the four Panzer Armies. They are the really dangerous units, they are lethal.

The rest is mere infantry, NOT dangerous at all if alone. They will push you and that's all. On my game two of them panzer armies are in the vicinity of Leningrad. The other two are in the south. Strategically speaking, to me Leningrad IS a top priority. The south is not vital on the other hand. SO the conclusion is obvious: I have decided to be STRONG in Leningrad and WEAK in the South... In other words, I am concentrating my forces to meet, stop the most dangerous threat.

That's all you need to know about the story. It's really simple, not rocket science [8D]

So the conclusion might be: uniformity (spreading your assets that is) is in general a bad thing and is not justified.

I might be wrong but so far it's working for me (with two different opponents).



76mm -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/21/2011 8:54:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus


I have the units everyone has [:)] And my Southwestern Front was totally annihilated during the Frontier District Massacres.


I think you have a lot more units, and that we have different definitions of "totally annihilated". Your losses seem in fact very low--how many units have you lost so far?



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/21/2011 9:03:32 PM)

This is what I have lost. The 90% of the HQs were in fact disbanded by me, not destroyed by the enemy.

One thing is certain, I am not allowing my opponent to swallow the Red Army for nothing. That is my third VITAL objective: avoid the destruction of the Red Army.

[image]local://upfiles/11562/F4BA577FB94047909C7B827C389C96C3.jpg[/image]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/21/2011 9:07:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

And now the Massacre Zone! [8D] Great job, 2ndACR. As I have said, I will deliberately be weak here... If I were sending STAVKA strategic reserves here (I mean now) my Western Front would not look that "massive" (only turn 3, remember). I have also sent reserves to the NW and W rears...

[image]local://upfiles/11562/0BDC6E11397C439B84FAB7DBD7848446.jpg[/image]


And yes, he competently ANNIHILATED my Southwestern Front. Only a dozen or so divisions escaped. That's why I did NOT checkerboard there. I did not want to lose everything.



76mm -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/21/2011 9:31:28 PM)

I'll post how many units I lost once I get my turn back (I have been afraid to look!), but I'm guessing it is a multiple of yours--maybe 3x or 4x...



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/21/2011 9:35:23 PM)

Ok, but we'll have to extrapolate. This is turn 11, and you are on the 24? What about the Southwest? He managed to do a mega sophisticated pocket and trapped everything?

Anyway, I said this above, he is NOT trapping enough hordes. I am well aware of this [:)]



76mm -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/21/2011 10:54:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Ok, but we'll have to extrapolate. This is turn 11, and you are on the 24? What about the Southwest? He managed to do a mega sophisticated pocket and trapped everything?


I probably lost 30 divisions between mud and blizzard, although a good many were depleted shells. I probably lost 40-50 units in Lgrad alone...in the Southwest, I don't know how mega-sophisticated it was, but I had massive losses, and on some turns could only throw depleted units in his path, or nothing at all...

I had about 3.8 million in losses prior to the blizzard, most of those in the first 12 turns.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/21/2011 11:22:42 PM)

I see. He definitely swallowed the Red Army. If it's too weak, then yes, surviving is hard [:)] To be honest, I was not sure about surviving when I saw he had destroyed my many units in the Southwest. But somehow... I decided I would be strong in the center (my initial strategy: I simply imitate Soviet strategy, which faced a strong AGC) and let him do in the south (a gamble). But of course I didn't allow him to destroy my many armies concentrated in the center. Had he done that... He'd be grabbing Leningrad, Moscow and whatever he wants. Who would have stopped him?

Well, he still can grab Leningrad, we never know [8D]



Encircled -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/22/2011 12:33:10 AM)

Those losses are amazingly low, especially in destroyed infantry divisions




Sabre21 -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/22/2011 1:30:14 AM)

You have a weak spot in your Leningrad defenses. Along the Luga just west of where the name is printed on the map is where I would attack as the Germans..go straight north to the sea cutting off those along the Narva then turn due east into those forts that have no one else in them. Fortts by themselves fall reall easy. With the forces I see on the map. the German could use his infantry to open a hole then let his panzers thru. If he did it right he could take Leningrad in 1 turn, although NW Leningrad would still need to be taken.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/22/2011 2:13:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

You have a weak spot in your Leningrad defenses. Along the Luga just west of where the name is printed on the map is where I would attack as the Germans..go straight north to the sea cutting off those along the Narva then turn due east into those forts that have no one else in them. Fortts by themselves fall reall easy. With the forces I see on the map. the German could use his infantry to open a hole then let his panzers thru. If he did it right he could take Leningrad in 1 turn, although NW Leningrad would still need to be taken.


Now you're scaring me [:)] I really don't know how to calculate the distance covered by the Panzers [8|] Therefore I didn't think they could reach these forts (they dig, don't fight). Expect the unexpected, indeed.

Thanks [&o] Rifle divisions sent.



Pipewrench -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/22/2011 3:02:19 AM)

trying to figure out those two mechanized fists south of Leningrad.

my thoughts are that he is going to launch a buildup from the south with the objective being the hq and 2 air at the rail intersection east of lake Ilmen and at the same time use the other armored corps to cut the rail above Novgorod and then swing east ,not necessarily trapping but cutting the rail links. This could be interesting.....



Reconvet -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/22/2011 8:36:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

You have a weak spot in your Leningrad defenses. Along the Luga just west of where the name is printed on the map is where I would attack as the Germans..go straight north to the sea cutting off those along the Narva then turn due east into those forts that have no one else in them. Fortts by themselves fall reall easy. With the forces I see on the map. the German could use his infantry to open a hole then let his panzers thru. If he did it right he could take Leningrad in 1 turn, although NW Leningrad would still need to be taken.



Take Leningrad in 1 turn? Through this carpet? Hover tanks for vertical envelopment which can ignore all these zones of control???

Sorry to say so, but knowing you as a game veteran I can't help thinking you try to unnecessarily scare our TulliusDetritus. Have you been bribed by 2ndACR to divert TD's attention from other sectors? In this game Axis has huge problems, but helping him should be done in the Axis AAR, not here...

My main worries as soviet would be the level zero forts just south of river Neva, between Kolpino and Shlisselburg, offering a river crossing towards Olvino port. That's the route I'd try to take as Axis to get Leningrad itself isolated. But I just don't see 2ndACR getting this far with the forces he has in this region before blizzard.

My bet is: 2ndACR does not have enough infantry up north to really threaten Leningrad before blizzard, and his mobile units west/northwest of Novgorod are not in the shape they'd have to be to clear a lane for their grunt buddies.




Josh -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/22/2011 10:09:54 AM)

I agree, taking Leningrad in one turn through that carpet? Is that possible? Your opponent might be able to punch a hole at the spot Andy noted, but still, that's an amazing red carpet. One I fear to see as an Axis player. (mopped up 20 divisions... oh lookee here, another 20 LOL)



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/22/2011 7:58:26 PM)

I have to admit when I read Sabre's comment I had a WTF moment [:)]

I understand the panzers with 50 MPs might do that. But the infantry? If they don't catch up, the 5 AGN might heroically capture one hex of Leningrad (good for them) but they would be annihilated on the next turns, in my opinion. A mega bear hug, if you know what I mean.

So maybe he was not talking about the next turn. The infantry is still relatively far. How could they form --on the next turn-- a continuous line to link with the panzers (one of the units already in Leningrad itself), safe from any MEGA counter-attack in any part of a necessarily thin and long line?

If Sabre says it can be done, then I 100% trust him. He is far more experienced than anyone of us [:)] But still, do that on next turn...

I'm at work and I've been thinking about Moscow [X(] So there's going to be some changes in my strategy. I have to do the turn when at home [8D]



timmyab -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/22/2011 8:43:55 PM)

I don't think you've anything to worry about to be honest.Sabre's plan is too ambitious I think.I would also choose exactly the same spot to attack but I'd only be aiming for the coast.There's not enough infantry support and those panzers look very tired to me.Even with a fully charged panzer army, I still wouldn't put money on it.



Klydon -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/22/2011 9:21:39 PM)

I had thought the line to the coast looked a bit thin and the fort units won't stop a stiff breeze.  Then I saw Sabre post about it, so the thought has come up for multiple people. The real trick will be what 2ndACR does with it. The other thing is I am not sure how all the ports interact with each other up there, but there is a port on the coast just to the east of Leningrad. With the rough hexes and port very weakly held, he could get in there and be right on Leningrad's door step. Very risky, don't get me wrong, but he would likely be able to get support from the west by 18th army.  



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