RE: Pelton (GHC) Vs Arstavidios 1.04.24 (Full Version)

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Peltonx -> RE: Pelton (GHC) Vs Arstavidios 1.04.24 (6/18/2011 1:13:28 AM)

Finished the turn. Lines are fine so far, no break thoughs and December is over. Losses are very light so far 194,000 most to general winter. Lightest of the 5 winters I have been able to play in so far.

On the flip side the Russian losses are very light also.

Just the new Manpower pool/German armerment rules that are going to make things interesting. probably have to call up reserves. This was my first time ever tring to keep reserves in Germany. Old rules would have been fine, but with 430K men on vacation in the manpower pool I need the guys at front.

Pelton



karonagames -> RE: Pelton (GHC) Vs Arstavidios 1.04.24 (6/18/2011 8:34:46 AM)

quote:

Just the new Manpower pool/German armerment rules that are going to make things interesting. probably have to call up reserves. This was my first time ever tring to keep reserves in Germany. Old rules would have been fine, but with 430K men on vacation in the manpower pool I need the guys at front.


There are a lot of "swings and roundabouts" on manpower for both sides. Up to now, even with the "broken" blizzard prior to 1.04, the German front line strength at T53 (June 22 1942) has been higher than the OOB strength for the start of the 1942 campaign, usually about 3.3m vs 3.0m. The most recent AAR to get that far is Ketza's, and he had at least 3.2m at T53.

You will only be "behind" if you have less than 3.0m front line troops by T53. For the Soviets, there is much more variance, depending on on the amount pocketed in the Summer. Some SU players who use a "Sir Robin" strategy have had nearly 6m in their Frontline OOB, which is 1.5m more than the 1942 start, but they have lost more HI and Armaments factories, so they are balancing having more men that don't need to be equipped against having less APs to equip them with.

We have yet to see if this strategy is the one that will win in the long term. My testing would indicate that if 3.3m plays 6.0m at T53, then the Axis have to pocket at least 2m in the 1942 to keep the SU frontline strength at a level that can be "managed" from 1943 onwards.



Peltonx -> RE: Pelton (GHC) Vs Arstavidios 1.04.24 (6/18/2011 12:02:10 PM)

End of Turn 28

30 SHC attacks: 30 wins and 6 losses

Losses
GHC 110K about 27k from attacks and 80k from General Winter.
SHC 36k

Manpower pool is still growing at 477,000 still increasing by 50,000 per turn.
Armaments pool has increased from 90k to 94k, which again is odd. I was told it should be dropping and its increasing every turn by 4k..

377,000 German. I have been told this will start going down as of January 1st. We shall see. The number of losses and retreats have dropped off, but the same number of troops end up in the manpower pool per turn.

Lines are fine, only trouble spot is between Tula and Kursk, but I have 12 fresh divisions on way. No breakthroughs. My defensive CV increased slightly and it appears his dropped a little. Looks like the worst is over. I just need to sure up the tula Kursk area and a small area just south of the Finns. One corps is on way to sure up that spot.

I have also been able to pull out some regiments and hole divisions out of the line to try an get some replasements to my troops so the pool stops growing by 50k per turn. The ToW % to art an other units tow has been at 50% from mud on, but has seemed to have zero effect at keeping rifle squads in the line.

Pelton



Klydon -> RE: Pelton (GHC) Vs Arstavidios 1.04.24 (6/18/2011 2:30:18 PM)

Looks like his attack tempo has crested and dropped. Guessing probably due to unready units, etc. Very nice job on this. He really needed to try to do a lot of damage to you over the blizzard because I think you will slice him up in the summer. 



Peltonx -> RE: Pelton (GHC) Vs Arstavidios 1.04.24 (6/18/2011 3:04:21 PM)

I have two options come summer.

1. Manstein it for rest of war. I took out 140 AR and 57H so I have done more then enough damage to his industry to just sit back and backhhand whatever attacks he attemps from 42 to 43, then hang on.

2. Try and O limited to pocketing his best units. I expect from the size of his army and over skill levels he put up a good fight and pocketing units will not be easy.

Pelton



Peltonx -> RE: Pelton (GHC) Vs Arstavidios 1.04.24 (6/19/2011 1:29:38 AM)

End of Turn 29

20 SHC attacks: 19 wins and 1 losses

Losses
GHC 97K about 28k from attacks and 70k from General Winter.
SHC 31k

Manpower pool is still growing at 492,000 still increased by 15k
Armaments pool has increased from 94k to 96k.

Lines are fine

Pelton



Scook_99 -> RE: Pelton (GHC) Vs Arstavidios 1.04.24 (6/19/2011 6:45:04 AM)

I have not heard about the 5/5/5 HQ part for fort building, will have to try it.

You really want to put your Army and Army Group HQs in positions back a little bit, and in positions you won't move them much because of:
1) The less you move your HQs, the less trucks you destroy,
2) The HQs are supply dumps, so it is much easier to keep supplies (all 3 types) higher on your units, and
3) If the Soviet player can identify an HQ unit, and he feels like it, he can ground attack it often and try to get general kills. Not nice to lose Manstein or Guderian in that manner.

I don't worry about Corps HQs, as they have to move constantly. One trick I use is moving as many Army/AG/HC HQs by rail only. That won't burn up trucks, and won't eat your supply dump status up.



Peltonx -> RE: Pelton (GHC) Vs Arstavidios 1.04.24 (6/19/2011 11:05:45 AM)

Thks for tip on HQ



Tarhunnas -> RE: Pelton (GHC) Vs Arstavidios 1.04.24 (6/19/2011 11:19:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Scook_99

I have not heard about the 5/5/5 HQ part for fort building, will have to try it.

You really want to put your Army and Army Group HQs in positions back a little bit, and in positions you won't move them much because of:
1) The less you move your HQs, the less trucks you destroy,
2) The HQs are supply dumps, so it is much easier to keep supplies (all 3 types) higher on your units, and
3) If the Soviet player can identify an HQ unit, and he feels like it, he can ground attack it often and try to get general kills. Not nice to lose Manstein or Guderian in that manner.

I don't worry about Corps HQs, as they have to move constantly. One trick I use is moving as many Army/AG/HC HQs by rail only. That won't burn up trucks, and won't eat your supply dump status up.


Yes, that was a good tip for HQ movement Scook!

About the 5/5/5 rule, that was new to me too. Is that documented somewhere or where does that come from?



Vorsteher -> RE: Pelton (GHC) Vs Arstavidios 1.04.24 (6/19/2011 11:20:59 AM)

quote:

I don't worry about Corps HQs, as they have to move constantly. One trick I use is moving as many Army/AG/HC HQs by rail only. That won't burn up trucks, and won't eat your supply dump status up.

This is a good idea.



Peltonx -> RE: Pelton (GHC) Vs Arstavidios 1.04.24 (6/19/2011 12:49:47 PM)

I have destoryed 141 Armaments 38% and 58 Heavy Industry 25% of his industry and I really dont see it making a dent in his troop lvls at this point.

In past games 100 to 120 and I see a big difference. Hoooper was the only one that I destroied less then 75 and it shows.

Did they up the Russian factory output this last patch? Things seem allot different from 28 to now.

Pelton




Peltonx -> RE: Pelton (GHC) Vs Arstavidios 1.04.24 (6/19/2011 1:50:30 PM)

Here we go again?

I didn't start this one hehehe

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2842965

Hope we are wrong, but doesn't llok like it.

133200 / 450 = 296 pts per factory
133200 / 250 = 523

Its been X-mass every turn for Arstavidios
looks like, hehehehe

Pelton




Peltonx -> RE: Pelton (GHC) Vs Arstavidios 1.04.24 (6/20/2011 12:24:55 AM)

End of Turn 30

21 SHC attacks: 21 wins and 0 losses

Losses
GHC 78K about 21k from attacks and 57k from General Winter.
SHC 30k

Manpower pool is still growing at 478,000 still decreased finally
Armaments pool has increased from 96k to 98k.

Lines are fine normal winter so far compared to last 4 other then the crazy manpower pool.

Pelton

Here are stats from the four games that made it to turn 30. 5 others did not make it to turn 30 and 1 made to to turn 38, but I did not keep track was my first 41-45 campiagn.

Pelton vs Larry Fulkerner - resigned turn 60
T-30 Loses
SHC 3.5 mil men 17000tanks 52000 art
GHC 550000 men 2200 tanks 4000 art
OOB
SHC 4.1 mil troops 2300 tanks 34000 art 7000 planes
GHC 3.5 mil troops 2700 tanks 37500 art 3300 planes
Destroyed all Factories in Leningrad and Moscow.
Destroyed 132 AP and 65 HVY


Pelton vs Hoooper still active
T-30 Loses:
SHC 3.7 mil men 17000 tanks 51000 art 13000 planes
GHC 1.2 men 3450 tanks 10000 art 1500 Planes
OOB
SHC 5.4 mil troops 6000 tanks 62000 art 9500 planes
GHC 3.0 mil troops 2150 tanks 35000 art 3400 planes
Destroyed all Factories in Leningrad
Destroyed 76 AP and 37 HVY

Pelton vs Cyclops - MIA turn 50
T-30 Loses:
SHC 4.3 mil men 16600 tanks 58000 art
GHC 1.0 men 2950 tanks 8200 art
OOB
SHC 4.0 mil troops 3350 tanks 48500 art 4770 planes
GHC 2.5 mil troops 2400 tanks 35000 art 2255 planes
Destroyed all Factories in Leningrad and Moscow.
Destroyed 128 AP and 62 HVY

Pelton vs Arstavidous still active
T-30 Loses:
SHC 3.1 mil men 16100 tanks 45700 art
GHC 1.1 men 3850 tanks 12300 art
OOB
SHC 5.8 mil troops 5900 tanks 61000 art 8299 planes
GHC 2.7 mil troops 2000 tanks 32000 art 3370 planes
Destroyed 140 AP and 57 HVY - I took Leningrad, but he had moved factories.



Harrybanana -> RE: Pelton (GHC) Vs Arstavidios 1.04.24 (6/20/2011 12:42:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas


quote:

ORIGINAL: Scook_99

I have not heard about the 5/5/5 HQ part for fort building, will have to try it.

You really want to put your Army and Army Group HQs in positions back a little bit, and in positions you won't move them much because of:
1) The less you move your HQs, the less trucks you destroy,
2) The HQs are supply dumps, so it is much easier to keep supplies (all 3 types) higher on your units, and
3) If the Soviet player can identify an HQ unit, and he feels like it, he can ground attack it often and try to get general kills. Not nice to lose Manstein or Guderian in that manner.

I don't worry about Corps HQs, as they have to move constantly. One trick I use is moving as many Army/AG/HC HQs by rail only. That won't burn up trucks, and won't eat your supply dump status up.


Yes, that was a good tip for HQ movement Scook!

About the 5/5/5 rule, that was new to me too. Is that documented somewhere or where does that come from?


It is rule 15.3.2.2. But I believe it only helps if the higherup HQ has construction SUs attached to it. The rule is as follows:


"Construction and engineer support units attached to headquarters units in the combat unit’s
chain of command can assist those combat units in constructing fort levels if the applicable
headquarters unit passes a leader admin check. The headquarters unit that the combat unit
is directly attached must be within five hexes of that combat unit. In addition, no more than
three levels of headquarters units in the combat units chain of command can assist, and each
higher headquarters unit that may provide support units must be within five hexes of the next
lower level headquarters unit. For example, in order for construction and engineer support
units to assist down the entire eligible chain of command, a German combat unit attached to
a Corps headquarters unit must be able to trace five hexes back to that Corps HQ unit. The
Corps HQ unit in turn must be able to trace five hexes back to the Army HQ unit to which it is
attached, and finally the Army HQ unit must be able to trace five hexes back to the Army Group
HQ. In the above example, if the unit was within 5 hexes of its Corps HQ but the Corps was not
within 5 HQ of its Army HQ, then only support units in the Corps HQ would be able to potentially
assist the unit. Each eligible support unit may assist the fort level building of no more than one
combat unit per turn."

I assume that the higherup HQs have a tougher chance of passing the leader admin check as usual, but not too clear.



Peltonx -> RE: Pelton (GHC) Vs Arstavidios 1.04.24 (6/20/2011 1:17:09 AM)

Yes true. I am going with the supply issue next game.

Its really jets up the levels, but probably not worth the cost of moving. having said that come 44 it should be a good thing.



Scook_99 -> RE: Pelton (GHC) Vs Arstavidios 1.04.24 (6/20/2011 4:00:44 AM)

Ah, this makes what Pyledriver posted make sense. To prepare for the Blizzard, once in mud stack your units 2 high, and attach construction and engineer to the HQs where you want to build up quickly. He stated you will go from nothing to level 2 forts before the hard freeze sets it. I am not positive if you can attach construction units to Corps HQ, but I am going to try before my next winter. Transferring the SU's will cost AP, but it will bypass the need for using the 5/5/5 range part.



Peltonx -> RE: Pelton (GHC) Vs Arstavidios 1.04.24 (6/21/2011 12:55:02 AM)

End of Turn 31

28 SHC attacks: 26 wins and 2 losses

Losses
GHC 76K about 19k from attacks and 55k from General Winter.
SHC 34k

Lines are fine.

There are 3 plases hes pushed a little.

One north of Moscow which is in crappy terrain and I am happy to see so many troops up there. Still not sure what it is about north, why poeple waste so many troops in this area.

Around Orel there are 2 soft spots, but I just sent the last of my reserves to area. looks to be a nice spot to hit come summer.

The south from just below Kursk to water is solid, only lost 2 lines of forts so far. Hes got a small landing between Crimea and Stalino. Be another spot to pick off units come winter.

I post some picks next turn.

Normal winter so far losses are on light side, other then 500,000 men in the pool things are ok so far.

Once the manpower pours back in I should be fine. I see a few areas that look weak in his lines, but things can change before the snow hits.


Pelton




Mynok -> RE: Pelton (GHC) Vs Arstavidios 1.04.24 (6/21/2011 3:08:56 AM)


You can definitely attach const to corps HQ.



Peltonx -> RE: Pelton (GHC) Vs Arstavidios 1.04.24 (6/21/2011 10:28:00 AM)

Yes still tring to figure out how to do that smooothly.

I stack my units 1 reg high 3 deep where i can and get to levels 3 forts very fast enough.

Its going from 3 to 4 that takes time and seem to need a full division. I never stack 2 div high to get to level 3 when i could stack 1 reg high in 6 hexs and get to lvl 3 almost as fast.

I try the con thing to go from 3 to 5.

Good leaders help allot also. Models the best on defence.

Pelton



Peltonx -> RE: Pelton (GHC) Vs Arstavidios 1.04.24 (6/22/2011 1:52:28 AM)

Turn 33
After 8 Blizzard turns here are front lines.

On my turn 33 I attacked 11 hexs and routed 3 hexs and got 6 retreats. The fresh tanks are at the front.
I am flipping hexs he pushed me out of an could not advance.
Come snow turns I expect to be able to hit any weak spots with some punch.

I have 15 mech units in reserver mode allong the front, hmm see how that works out.

Losses have averaged about
GHC 90K per turn about 25k from attacks and 65k from General Winter.
SHC 35k

Manpower pool is still at 460,000 and decreased about 10k per turn.
Armaments pool has increased to 106k and increasing at about 2k per turn.

With 1/6 of my army tied behind my back I am still doing ok. Remember peeps to set ToW on useless units to 50% so you only have 200000 men end up in the manpower pool and not 500,000 at peak hehhe.

AGN: In the Finish zone I thk I have lost 2 hexs and a few battles. I dont attack with them at all during winter. From the Finnish line south to Rzhey, I have with drawn 0 to 3 hexs. Basicly hes pushed me just out of my lvl 3 fort belt. I am in some lvl 3 forts still and 1 to 2 lvl forts i have put up in the last few turns.
Lines are in good shape with a few reserver divisions in area if needed.


[image]local://upfiles/20387/4F8ED6D239F7478EAFBE2F4D31776567.jpg[/image]



Peltonx -> RE: Pelton (GHC) Vs Arstavidios 1.04.24 (6/22/2011 1:58:37 AM)

AGC Rzhey to Orel same thing 0 to 3 hexs. hes got a little push going in front of Tula, but I got a panzer corps in area should be fine.

[image]local://upfiles/20387/C8009BCCF462487BB23B14C1351A2D01.jpg[/image]



Peltonx -> RE: Pelton (GHC) Vs Arstavidios 1.04.24 (6/22/2011 2:05:23 AM)

AGC from Orel to Belograd I have lost 0 to 3 to hexs. He has managed to advance 6 hexs 3 wide infront of Kursk.
Its a big zit that will need popping come spring. Best advance anyone has had in my 5 winters. Grats to the big A [:)]

4 mech divisions and 3 infantry have arrived to save the day heheh.

From Belograd south to Kharkov I have lost 0 to 1 hex.

[image]local://upfiles/20387/C2F9F7926E9D4F0891E8553710C54722.jpg[/image]



Peltonx -> RE: Pelton (GHC) Vs Arstavidios 1.04.24 (6/22/2011 2:09:02 AM)

AGS from Kharkov to Stalino I lost 0 to 1 hexs, then between Stalino and water 1 to 4 hexs. For some unknown reason every Russian player love to push between Stalino and water making for a nice pocket come summer [:D]

Crimea was a bore. And we have a few lazy Russians sunning them selfs on the beach [:-]

Other then that one zit at Kursk lines are very tight. You can compair my turn 1 blizard turns with these to check me out.

Whos the dummy that said forts are irrelevent? [:-][:-][:-][:-][:-]

[&o][&o][&o]= Forts = [&o][&o][&o] during blizzards.

And you don't need to stack german unit 2 high per hex to hold the line. Only 1 per hex other then hexs that can be attacked from more then 2 hexs.

[image]local://upfiles/20387/6121E57F19574F7983B468FDB29ACA88.jpg[/image]



Peltonx -> RE: Pelton (GHC) Vs Arstavidios 1.04.24 (6/22/2011 2:09:31 AM)

OOB

[image]local://upfiles/20387/A420C84CE6F34491ABF8875161000B01.jpg[/image]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Pelton (GHC) Vs Arstavidios 1.04.24 (6/22/2011 4:49:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Whos the dummy that said forts are irrelevent? [:-][:-][:-][:-][:-]

[&o][&o][&o]= Forts = [&o][&o][&o] during blizzards.

And you don't need to stack german unit 2 high per hex to hold the line. Only 1 per hex other then hexs that can be attacked from more then 2 hexs.


The dummy has to be me if I am not mistaken [8|]

Pelton, in case you are unaware, you are not doing German players a favour... The day 6 Soviet Rifle Divisions (from 2 hexes) will trash (yes or yes) a SINGLE German division (fort level = 3; YES, utterly irrelevant in T H I S case) they will remember your wise words [8|]

How do I know this? Because I [as a Soviet] spent the whole Blizzard massacres doing that... If your opponents avoided these easy shots then it is N O T my fault. Their loss, not mine [:D]



Q-Ball -> RE: Pelton (GHC) Vs Arstavidios 1.04.24 (6/22/2011 4:58:49 PM)

I am of the opinion that forts are key for the Germans surviving the winter, seeing it from both sides.

The Russians are certainly strong enough to push a German Division in a size-3 fort, no question. But generally, that will take 4-6 Rifle Divisions as you say, which means you will not be able to make 50+ such attacks along the whole front. Most of the time, a Rifle Division is good for only 1 Deliberate attack per turn; just doesn't have the MPs to do more.

Even size 1 and 2 forts prevent hasty attacks and exploitation attacks, and slow the Russian down.

So, forts won't stop the Winter Offensive, but are a critical force-multiplier to surviving winter. Once Germans units are out in the open, it's not good for the Wehrmacht, I don't care what month it is.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Pelton (GHC) Vs Arstavidios 1.04.24 (6/22/2011 5:43:56 PM)

Q-Ball, the forts are a big difference. This is indeed a fact when compared to pre .04 blizzards. 2ndACR said this very clearly. He had played 8 blizzards and yes, he saw a massive improvement. But this does NOT mean the forts will ALWAYS save you. FALSE. The only almost unvulnerable enemy hexes I saw: fortified (minimum level 2) 2-units GERMAN infantry stacks. And yes, I banged my head against them in the first blizzard month: december. As if I was banging my head against the wall... but less than that... [sm=00000622.gif]



Peltonx -> RE: Pelton (GHC) Vs Arstavidios 1.04.24 (6/22/2011 5:50:55 PM)

Thanks Q-Ball for input.

You can "hold the line" does not mean the German player will never have to retreat a single hex the hole winter [:-]

It means you will not have losses that average more then 100,000 per turn even in December and your lines will only be pushed back and average of 1 - 3 hexs allong the hole front after 8 turns.

The Russian player will only be able to average attacking 20 hexs a turn.

The Red Tide of the 41 - 42 winter can be held in check with min lose of land and troops. This is vs a very large 5.8 million man Russian army and 1/6 of the German Army on vacation ( my bad ).

The line can be "held".

1. Dig in early 3 deep, lvl 3
2. Ruler striaght.
3. Stack 2 deep on any hexs that can be attacked from more then 2 hexs.
4. Set ToW level at 50% on non Inf/mech units. 75% is really pushing it. 50% is much easyer.
5. Mech units in Citys in reserve use as needed.
6. Minor allies digging a 4th line and doing ZoC to really slow any soft spots.

Pelton [&o][&o][&o] = Forts = [&o][&o][&o] during blizzards.





Peltonx -> RE: Pelton (GHC) Vs Arstavidios 1.04.24 (6/23/2011 3:24:02 AM)

Turn 34

29 SHC attacks: 27 wins and 3 losses Many hexs he attacked several times and could not move into and I flipped back.
11 GHC Attacks: 11 wins 5 routes 6 retreats Able to rout several hexs with 3 divisions in them now, its February.

Sent 5 more inf divisions into the center.

Lines are fine, with the bubble near Kursk.

3 more turns and I should beable to have an oragnized counter attack on the bubble flanks.
Russian CV values are falling and mine rising.

Pelton



Sabre21 -> RE: Pelton (GHC) Vs Arstavidios 1.04.24 (6/23/2011 5:25:47 AM)

When I tested all this before 1.04 beta was released, I found a single German division in a level 2 fort during the blizzard was a tough nut to crack with the average Soviet stack of units. It boils down to how good are the German divisions and how well prepared is the Soviet player to conduct a counter offensive. The Germans in this game pushed as far as possible and didn't start digging in until the mud season so about the best fort on the front was a level 2 when blizzard hit. Despite that though, both the tank and infantry numbers were pretty good.

If the Soviet player can amass a couple stacks of the 8 to 10 cv rifle divisions, that will crack a level 2 or 3 fort pretty easily using a deliberate attack. The problem is there aren't too many of those around unless the Soviet player has really prepared himself for the upcoming blizzard. I try and have 5 or 6 armies of these guys put together, but if you are facing a very tough German opponent that keeps you on the run throughout the summer and pre-blizzard, you will be lucky to have any of these stronger divisions on hand.

In that last test game I only managed 2 of these armies and that just wasn't enough. I pushed the entire front about 2 to 3 hexes back on average except where I placed my best troops and managed 6 hexes, but it wasn't enough to recapture Moscow. The ss below shows where the Soviets ended up as of turn 38. The red line shows where the front was as of turn 25. Since this game the Soviets were made a bit stronger with an increase in armament points so I can see maybe another hex or 2 at most.

So i would have to agree that forts are essential for German survival during the blizzard, but you will also need to make sure your railheads are near the front, that you have an in depth defense with local reserves available, and your divisions are in pretty good overall shape.

[image]local://upfiles/3042/AF9D903BB849445ABCC03F6CE928D4EF.jpg[/image]



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