RE: Wild Sheep Chase

RE: Wild Sheep Chase (Full Version)

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obvert -> RE: Wild Sheep Chase (2/10/2014 1:29:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chickenboy Obvert, Great map! Just one typographical correction: KB is not "retreating" to Ominato, but is conducting a retrograde advance for the purposes of resupply. Alternatively, they have expended all available munitions upon their adversaries, leaving them aflame and sinking. Now, KB needs additional munitions to finish the job! Onwards! BANZAI! [&o] Ha! Yeah, it's going to be a miracle if any of the 5 CVs survive another battle, but it's definitely been 'good value' to make those CVs. Almost wish I even had Shinano now. I certainly have the extra HI to use for it. Any extra 45 planes and a massive armored deck would be pretty useful. I forgot to mention that since the Kasagi, Katsuragi, Taiho and Kaga survived and are in or almost in port, their groups can move off and begin to function as LBA immediately while the CVs try to not get sunk while repairing damage. I'll get system done as a priority first and may even use the decks in limited action with massive float and engine damage. Could have all four ready in a month this way for very limited and risky use, but as this point ... worth it if I can.

LoBaron -> RE: Wild Sheep Chase (2/10/2014 1:54:22 PM)
Attributes/skills and their effect on the game is an extremely complex topic. Basically I very much doubt that anyone outside the NDA zone has a complete overview on what influences what. There are a few obvious choices though, and some 'nice to haves when in doubt'. I have a lot of rules of thumb, but many are gut feelings more than anything else. In general, focusing on one skill set only usually leads to drawbacks on another mission critical aspect. For group commander (of any planetype), if you ONLY focus on maximising coordination of a well rested and otherwise unaffected group, the most important attributes to my best knowledge are leadership and aggression. Thats it. The rest may help in steadying the group when suffering losses, increase the success on specific missions, and so on, but are not required to get the flights in the air and coordinated in the first place. For the HQ commander (independent of whether it is a TF or an air HQ) I would choose leadership, air skill, admin, and aggression, but take this with a grain of salt already. It is a personal preference. None of the above I would prioritise in a particular order. A high aggression commander with no leadership skill has a pretty high chance to fly in alone and get mauled, a high leadership commander with very low aggression will sit on the ground waiting for better weather. Both is undesireable. Btw: There usually are a couple of factors favouring CV strike coordination over LBA coordination. Those are (with no guarantee for completeness): Less diverse plane types, higher avg exp, less skill/exp variation between leaders/groups compared to LBA, less fatigue/morale variation between groups compared to LBA, usually same distance to target for all groups, always sufficient air support, always sufficient supply (in case sorties are full that is), all groups share a common HQ (personal observation, feel free to disagree), more balanced strike composition in terms of planetypes, usually no other missions set for other groups on same base compared to LBA which could confuse coordination.

castor troy -> RE: Wild Sheep Chase (2/10/2014 2:21:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obvert quote: ORIGINAL: LoBaron quote: ORIGINAL: obvert Cool. My expectations all always be higher than what i'm seeing now because I have seen it work. Rarely, but I have. I want to know more and make it work better. I am aware of what you expect. And what I explained is that your expectations are (partly) wrong. Well, please don't put words in my mouth, or assume you are 'aware of whatI expect.' I'm not interested in being 'right' or 'wrong.' I'm interested in learning more.[:)] I'm not expecting to wipe out the Allied fleet. I'm hoping for a slightly more coordinated strike to get more of the bombers though, inflict a bit more damage so that LBA actually has the teeth it should. Commanders had a healthy respect for LBA in the war for a reason. quote: I have seen USN CA SAGs maul a Japanese equivalent TF in night battles in mid ´42. Does that make it the norm? No. Does this suggest you can influence the environment on your side only to make it the norm without significantly changing the force relation? No. If you expect that then you are are confusing an understanding how it works with the capability to influence the result. Let me tell you what might influence such a result (this is pretty obvious): Overwhelm the CAP with high quality escort fighters and change the relation of your strikes to contain at least 2/3rds escorts to 1/3rd strike a/c. That means in this specific situation you need to at least get 3k top line fighters to escort at least 1.5k dedicated naval strike aircraft. Such a composition might enable you to penetrate the present Allied CAP screen throughout multiple combat animations and might result in the annihilation of the allied fleet. Your composition was the other way around, if not worse, and contained only a fraction of the required aircraft total. Chances are low you can field enough to meet above requirements at this stage of war. And last, one of the reasons you bagged 20+ CVEs was because a part of your strike was defended by all your outnumbered escorts. That was as near perfect as you can get given the environment. Had the escorts split into small packages of insufficient numbers, chances are that the outcome would have been much worse for you. quote: Yet that near perfect result you mention from the CV strike happens almost exclusively with CV strikes, not with LBA. Any opinion on that? Sometimes questions are better than answers. You seem to 'know' exactly how this all works, and are very assured of that. I don't think we should be so assured of our understanding right now in beta, especially late war. You're undoubtedly one of the long time experts on coordination, and I certainly respect that, but something is fishy in our communal understanding. My expectations are not what you think they are. I'll do a count but I think you're underestimating the numbers I actually had there and the composition based on the outcome. It was not 3k escorts (I think the IJ has about 4500 total fighters right now) but it was close to the 2/3-1/3 ratio. The quality was there. I used several 49 plane Ki-84r units with some of the best 70-80exp pilots on the map, the equivalent of the KB groups, another very good Ki-100 group as well as Georges and Sams with good pilots. I really wouldn't put too much thought on airbattles and the outcome at this stage. Forget about the woodoo and explanations pulled out of thin air that hardly ever stood up a test. All in all, it's the same about the air routine like it is about all the other routines, they work very well IMO early on, with limited aircraft, ships and troops. None of the code routines works even somewhat at these late stages of the war with ten thousand aircraft engaging in one day and Armies of several hundred thousand men hitting each other. It just doesn't work like we would expect or want it to, it is just too complex to work. Takes a couple of years but at some point one just gets over it and accepts it while others still try to sacrifice a chicken in hopes it would help, when it just doesn't.

obvert -> RE: Wild Sheep Chase (2/10/2014 3:29:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: castor troy I really wouldn't put too much thought on airbattles and the outcome at this stage. Forget about the woodoo and explanations pulled out of thin air that hardly ever stood up a test. All in all, it's the same about the air routine like it is about all the other routines, they work very well IMO early on, with limited aircraft, ships and troops. None of the code routines works even somewhat at these late stages of the war with ten thousand aircraft engaging in one day and Armies of several hundred thousand men hitting each other. It just doesn't work like we would expect or want it to, it is just too complex to work. Takes a couple of years but at some point one just gets over it and accepts it while others still try to sacrifice a chicken in hopes it would help, when it just doesn't. There are always ways to improve. If you stop paying attention, you might miss something or not consider something that ends up working. I firmly believe player control changes outcomes at this stage, maybe even more than early on precisely because there is so much going on. I'm mostly concerned in the difference I witness, and that is demonstrable by CR evidence, between LBA and CV strikes. There is a difference, so is that something we can help control with LBA to get it close to the level of a CV strike? Greyjoy has done it several times in 44, as I mentioned above (if I recall correctly) Damien and Nemo said they had done it in the late game downfall game using the beta. LoBaron makes some very good points above. I can see the differences between how the game would 'see' LBA vs CV air strikes, and some of those things I can try with LBA right now. Doesn't hurt to try right? [:)]

witpqs -> RE: Wild Sheep Chase (2/10/2014 4:34:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chickenboy Obvert, Great map! Just one typographical correction: KB is not "retreating" to Ominato, but is conducting a retrograde advance for the purposes of resupply. Alternatively, they have expended all available munitions upon their adversaries, leaving them aflame and sinking. Now, KB needs additional munitions to finish the job! Onwards! BANZAI! [&o] Shoot, where's my dictionary...

obvert -> RE: Wild Sheep Chase (2/10/2014 4:46:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LoBaron Attributes/skills and their effect on the game is an extremely complex topic. Basically I very much doubt that anyone outside the NDA zone has a complete overview on what influences what. There are a few obvious choices though, and some 'nice to haves when in doubt'. I have a lot of rules of thumb, but many are gut feelings more than anything else. In general, focusing on one skill set only usually leads to drawbacks on another mission critical aspect. For group commander (of any planetype), if you ONLY focus on maximising coordination of a well rested and otherwise unaffected group, the most important attributes to my best knowledge are leadership and aggression. Thats it. The rest may help in steadying the group when suffering losses, increase the success on specific missions, and so on, but are not required to get the flights in the air and coordinated in the first place. For the HQ commander (independent of whether it is a TF or an air HQ) I would choose leadership, air skill, admin, and aggression, but take this with a grain of salt already. It is a personal preference. None of the above I would prioritise in a particular order. A high aggression commander with no leadership skill has a pretty high chance to fly in alone and get mauled, a high leadership commander with very low aggression will sit on the ground waiting for better weather. Both is undesireable. Btw: There usually are a couple of factors favouring CV strike coordination over LBA coordination. Those are (with no guarantee for completeness): Less diverse plane types, higher avg exp, less skill/exp variation between leaders/groups compared to LBA, less fatigue/morale variation between groups compared to LBA, usually same distance to target for all groups, always sufficient air support, always sufficient supply (in case sorties are full that is), all groups share a common HQ (personal observation, feel free to disagree), more balanced strike composition in terms of planetypes, usually no other missions set for other groups on same base compared to LBA which could confuse coordination. I try for high leadership in groups, but will often chose air skill first if I can't have both. That might be telling. Maybe the leadership is more important to the strikes coming together just slightly better. I'll have a look and see. For CV TFs I think they are very different HQs, especially late when I have to run so many multiple TFs to keep under the 200 plane limit per. I have guys that are good but wildly different in each. So the planes do very different things sometimes.

LoBaron -> RE: Wild Sheep Chase (2/10/2014 5:30:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chickenboy Just one typographical correction: KB is not "retreating" to Ominato, but is conducting a retrograde advance for the purposes of resupply. Somehow this reminds me of our marketing department notifying customers about a price increase by 'informing them about changes of service and contract not entirely to their benefit'.

witpqs -> RE: Wild Sheep Chase (2/10/2014 5:40:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LoBaron quote: ORIGINAL: Chickenboy Just one typographical correction: KB is not "retreating" to Ominato, but is conducting a retrograde advance for the purposes of resupply. Somehow this reminds me of our marketing department notifying customers about a price increase by 'informing them about changes of service and contract not entirely to their benefit'. Oh, and here I was thinking 'retrograde' was like disco. [:D]

obvert -> RE: Wild Sheep Chase (2/10/2014 6:04:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LoBaron quote: ORIGINAL: Chickenboy Just one typographical correction: KB is not "retreating" to Ominato, but is conducting a retrograde advance for the purposes of resupply. quote: Somehow this reminds me of our marketing department notifying customers about a price increase by 'informing them about changes of service and contract not entirely to their benefit'. [:D]

Grollub -> RE: Wild Sheep Chase (2/10/2014 6:49:02 PM)
... and I remember getting a mail from my car insurance company informing me about a 50% fee increase due to "greatly improved information services". I phoned them and asked what the "greatly improved information service" was and got the reply (from a slightly embarrased helpdesk person) "we'll send you an info folder with every monthly bill telling you about our other insurances" ... I moved my insurance to another company.

obvert -> RE: Wild Sheep Chase (2/10/2014 6:55:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Grollub ... and I remember getting a mail from my car insurance company informing me about a 50% fee increase due to "greatly improved information services". I phoned them and asked what the "greatly improved information service" was and got the reply (from a slightly embarrased helpdesk person) "we'll send you an info folder with every monthly bill telling you about our other insurances" ... I moved my insurance to another company. Well done. You're probably one of very few who asked the question. So glad the only insurance i have to deal with is through my job and they negotiate for us all.

obvert -> RE: Wild Sheep Chase (2/10/2014 7:22:16 PM)
Well, the next turn began with some good runs in at Moppo. Some Es and SC cleared the way, some PB, ML and MTB tried to get into the minefields at Moppo with only partial success, and the Es managed to take out a few more subs on the way. Always nice to take out an early war veteran Dutch sub. Payback! [:D] [image]local://upfiles/37283/B0577BA859D84FAEA86CD214450A9FFB.jpg[/image]

obvert -> RE: Wild Sheep Chase (2/10/2014 7:25:00 PM)
At Shimoneseki the AM and million ML local minesweeping TF sacrifices 3 boats to the God of Mines and clears 242 mines in the night phase! [8D] This drop was over a week ago, and there are still active mines in the port (although it's useable now daily). How many mines are here?!?[X(] [image]local://upfiles/37283/C079FB0D4BBB473DBE973ED3681BD980.jpg[/image]

obvert -> RE: Wild Sheep Chase (2/10/2014 7:26:23 PM)
The old boys went in first, absolutely crippling the base and then ... [image]local://upfiles/37283/F00492200BED4349B6F1E90209BE6425.jpg[/image]

obvert -> RE: Wild Sheep Chase (2/10/2014 7:30:51 PM)
... the Yamatos added onto that! [sm=happy0005.gif] Interesting to note there are no combat troops among the casualties!!!? Very interesting. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Night Naval bombardment of Moppo at 100,54 Allied aircraft no flights Allied aircraft losses PBY-5 Catalina: 20 damaged PBY-5 Catalina: 1 destroyed on ground Seafire IIC: 3 damaged Seafire IIC: 1 destroyed on ground PBM-3D Mariner: 21 damaged PBM-3D Mariner: 1 destroyed on ground SB2C-4 Helldiver: 22 damaged SB2C-4 Helldiver: 1 destroyed on ground Avenger II: 1 destroyed on ground Japanese Ships BB Hyuga BB Ise BB Fuso Allied ground losses: [color=#990000] 1246 casualties reported Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled Non Combat: 29 destroyed, 82 disabled Engineers: 61 destroyed, 147 disabled Guns lost 7 (2 destroyed, 5 disabled) Vehicles lost 9 (6 destroyed, 3 disabled) Airbase hits 12 Airbase supply hits 4 Runway hits 46 Port hits 1 BB Hyuga firing at Moppo E13A1b Jake acting as spotter for BB Ise BB Ise firing at Moppo BB Fuso firing at Moppo -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Night Naval bombardment of Moppo at 100,54 Allied aircraft no flights Allied aircraft losses PBM-3D Mariner: 11 damaged PBM-3D Mariner: 1 destroyed on ground Corsair II: 4 damaged Corsair II: 1 destroyed on ground SB2C-4 Helldiver: 1 destroyed on ground Seafire IIC: 1 damaged Japanese Ships BB Musashi BB Yamato Allied ground losses: 481 casualties reported Squads: 1 destroyed, 1 disabled Non Combat: 11 destroyed, 5 disabled Engineers: 32 destroyed, 19 disabled Guns lost 2 (2 destroyed, 0 disabled) Vehicles lost 5 (1 destroyed, 4 disabled) Airbase hits 8 Airbase supply hits 2 Runway hits 14 Port hits 1 BB Musashi firing at Moppo BB Yamato firing at Moppo Where is the spotter? Two groups set to spot. [image]local://upfiles/37283/80C5DFA0320743E081BD40ABF658CE2F.jpg[/image]

obvert -> RE: Wild Sheep Chase (2/10/2014 7:33:59 PM)
The Es have been able to operate at Moppo itself, which is interesting, hitting subs and usually missing mines. In this case they actually swept a few as well! [:)] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sub attack near Moppo at 100,54 Japanese Ships SC Ch 51 SC Ch 5 E Oga Allied Ships SS Hammerhead, hits 11, heavy damage SS Hammerhead launches 2 torpedoes at SC Ch 51 Hammerhead bottoming out .... E Oga attacking submerged sub .... Sounds of submarine breaking up detected! Escort abandons search for sub -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TF 151 encounters mine field at Moppo (100,54) Japanese Ships E Oga 1 mine cleared ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ [image]local://upfiles/37283/E55226FAF3E3447995F8BB7B1B32396D.jpg[/image]

koniu -> RE: Wild Sheep Chase (2/10/2014 7:39:45 PM)
Engineers: 61 destroyed, 147 disabled Engineers: 32 destroyed, 19 disabled Not best days to be engineer With every disabled, destroyed engineer squad his ability to repair AF is smaller. Add to that huge disruption and his ability to do that is minimal.

obvert -> RE: Wild Sheep Chase (2/10/2014 7:40:13 PM)
Losses over the Allied fleet are taking a toll on recon, patrol and FP groups. I keep shifting groups every day to let them recover, but it's about 8-10 planes a day lost. On the other hand, the Allies have not been to port since the last big CV battle, and must have very spartan and tired groups on those CVs. The longer they stay out there the better. Some strike planes are lost in search and others going for small targets. Today two IJN DDs hit mines at Moppo in spite of the best efforts of the suicide ML crews, and one is sunk by Allied strikes right in the center of our LR CAP. Not sure why nothing flew from nagasaki, but it probably saved 50 fighters from the sweeps coming through just offshore, so it balanced out. [image]local://upfiles/37283/5BD07E911B614BD79D8F6A9B2F42DDCC.jpg[/image]

obvert -> RE: Wild Sheep Chase (2/10/2014 7:41:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: koniu Engineers: 61 destroyed, 147 disabled Engineers: 32 destroyed, 19 disabled Not best days to be engineer No! not sure of course how many he brought, but they can't be in good shape right now.

obvert -> RE: Wild Sheep Chase (2/10/2014 7:43:11 PM)
Bombs away in China, still. [:)] [image]local://upfiles/37283/EAE9A4773B5847C5BF7F47D712ED357A.jpg[/image]

obvert -> RE: Wild Sheep Chase (2/10/2014 7:46:37 PM)
There were no PTs in Moppo today. This also was attacked by some willful if misguided Ann kamis that missed everything in spite of these being dead in the water. So this means one of two, or maybe three things. One, the Allies are low on supplies at Moppo. Two the Allies have no more fuel at Moppo. Three, and this is the least likely of course, they are actually running low on PT boats. about 70 have been sunk in the last month, but this can't be the case, right? They are endless! Some little SCs that have been hiding in Shanghai will try to dart out at 10 knots tomorrow and duke it out with the suntanned PT crews. [image]local://upfiles/37283/2305DCC8269442FEB81CE3CBB6A1279D.jpg[/image]

koniu -> RE: Wild Sheep Chase (2/10/2014 7:48:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obvert quote: ORIGINAL: koniu Engineers: 61 destroyed, 147 disabled Engineers: 32 destroyed, 19 disabled Not best days to be engineer No! not sure of course how many he brought, but they can't be in good shape right now. With high disruption even if he have 1000 engineers they will repair nothing And it look that Yours BB have great skill with aiming in engineers more than any other squad type

obvert -> RE: Wild Sheep Chase (2/10/2014 7:50:04 PM)
Now the big news. Either the operator forgot to turn off some 4E strikes to Hamamatsu, or Jocke is indeed hellbent for leather on taking out the best airframe factories and industry, losses be damned. Today several packages totaling 113 B-24J hit Hamamatsu and the Ki-83 factory. In spite of pretty good CAP, the bombers get through, this time due to some escorts added. That is rare, but probably a good idea. [image]local://upfiles/37283/B104169D8D52406B97A25B9AB7A35721.jpg[/image]

Lokasenna -> RE: Wild Sheep Chase (2/10/2014 7:50:28 PM)
Little or no combat troops at Moppo (I did see some in the Yamatos combat report)? Do you think it would be beneficial to take advantage of that? If so, are you able to do so?

obvert -> RE: Wild Sheep Chase (2/10/2014 7:50:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: koniu quote: ORIGINAL: obvert quote: ORIGINAL: koniu Engineers: 61 destroyed, 147 disabled Engineers: 32 destroyed, 19 disabled Not best days to be engineer No! not sure of course how many he brought, but they can't be in good shape right now. With high disruption even if he have 1000 engineers they will repair nothing And it look that Yours BB have great skill with aiming in engineers more than any other squad type Or that's all that is there other than basic support and AS. We'll see.

obvert -> RE: Wild Sheep Chase (2/10/2014 7:54:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lokasenna Little or no combat troops at Moppo (I did see some in the Yamatos combat report)? Do you think it would be beneficial to take advantage of that? If so, are you able to do so? I have a few paratroops left, but not many in the right spot right now. i might move all I can back in the next few days and see if I can at least do a recon mission with them. A landing might be too much with the mines, some CD guns if they are still working, and little prep. I'll start prepping a few crappy brigades though just in case. Might as well be prepared in case it seems like a good plan all of a sudden. On land I have 9-10k AV marching forward now. The Allies have reacted, which may be a bad choice. More on that later.

koniu -> RE: Wild Sheep Chase (2/10/2014 7:54:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obvert quote: ORIGINAL: koniu quote: ORIGINAL: obvert quote: ORIGINAL: koniu Engineers: 61 destroyed, 147 disabled Engineers: 32 destroyed, 19 disabled Not best days to be engineer No! not sure of course how many he brought, but they can't be in good shape right now. With high disruption even if he have 1000 engineers they will repair nothing And it look that Yours BB have great skill with aiming in engineers more than any other squad type Or that's all that is there other than basic support and AS. We'll see. Counter invasion maybe???? [sm=00000622.gif]

obvert -> RE: Wild Sheep Chase (2/10/2014 7:57:58 PM)
Two strikes arrive with the escorts and get a total of 8 hits on the factory, knocking it back to 9 (21). On the day 34 B-24J are reported shot down or lost, and 12 P-38 and 6 P-51 are shot down also. So again the mission costs almost exactly 30% of the bombers sent. He can't do that forever. Can he? [&:] [image]local://upfiles/37283/02DE9FF985BD4A3F8A6D386FA267EEE3.jpg[/image]

obvert -> RE: Wild Sheep Chase (2/10/2014 7:59:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: koniu quote: ORIGINAL: obvert quote: ORIGINAL: koniu quote: ORIGINAL: obvert quote: ORIGINAL: koniu Engineers: 61 destroyed, 147 disabled Engineers: 32 destroyed, 19 disabled Not best days to be engineer No! not sure of course how many he brought, but they can't be in good shape right now. With high disruption even if he have 1000 engineers they will repair nothing And it look that Yours BB have great skill with aiming in engineers more than any other squad type Or that's all that is there other than basic support and AS. We'll see. Counter invasion maybe???? [sm=00000622.gif] I'll certainly get it ready just in case.

obvert -> RE: Wild Sheep Chase (2/10/2014 8:01:20 PM)
The sweeps again arrive after the main strikes. So that means we got to the bombers, and then lost about 25 fighters to the P-47N. [image]local://upfiles/37283/BDE191F829A5425A8C1B3C9B74ACE8D2.jpg[/image]

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