RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (Full Version)

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Lokasenna -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/4/2017 3:12:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andav

HA-45 is indeed an engine.

Supply if very often an issue for Japan in the end game. It is one of the main reasons why Japan fails to thrive in the late war. Hoarding supply for as long as possible is one of the major concerns for Japan. One of the fastest ways to run out of supplies is to over expand production (Engines, airplanes, etc.) which uses supplies to repair the facility. This has to be balanced between the fact that aircraft/engine pools can't be bombed but supplies and factories can. So the balancing act is building enough planes/engines and hiding them in the pools where they are safe verses having supplies to actually be able to use those planes as either replacements or even to fly. How large the engine factory needs to be is determined by demand for those engines in aircraft being produce. John must think he needs a LOT of these engines.

Wa


It's used in Frank, George, and IIRC Frances.

All very important planes.



BBfanboy -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/4/2017 4:15:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Looks like John hugely over-expanded his Ha-45 production at Tokyo (360). It would take a year to repair all that, and 360K supply.


Depends on how many Ha-45 factories he has elsewhere, and you don't need the Ha-45 until later on, so the time to repair all of it is a non-issue.

I disagree. He does not have a year to work with and the supply should be used for other things, like China garrison stocks or tank production.



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/4/2017 4:25:19 PM)

Thanks for the information, gents.

I have the next turn. I'll post the usual report later today (it was a good turn, in keeping with the general trend of things).

But the next turn is going to be a click-fest, assuming I decide to invade Ningpo tomorrow rather than the day after. (The ships are in position, but I'm weighing whether to first send in some PT boats and DDs to scout Ningpo and Shanghai). Also, configuring my carrier air is going to be really tedious. I'm probably going to pull off enough strike aircraft to make room for any LBA Corsair and Hellcat squadrons that might fit. And I think I'll probably set everything to range zero. Defense is paramount now, and any strikes that did venture forth are likely to target the 3,000 riff-raff ships protected by 300+ fighters at Shanghai.

The next two or three turns should be fun. But the click-fests, oh my!



Lokasenna -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/4/2017 5:18:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Looks like John hugely over-expanded his Ha-45 production at Tokyo (360). It would take a year to repair all that, and 360K supply.


Depends on how many Ha-45 factories he has elsewhere, and you don't need the Ha-45 until later on, so the time to repair all of it is a non-issue.

I disagree. He does not have a year to work with and the supply should be used for other things, like China garrison stocks or tank production.


They could very possibly have been damaged by the bombing/fires.



BBfanboy -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/4/2017 6:51:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Looks like John hugely over-expanded his Ha-45 production at Tokyo (360). It would take a year to repair all that, and 360K supply.


Depends on how many Ha-45 factories he has elsewhere, and you don't need the Ha-45 until later on, so the time to repair all of it is a non-issue.

I disagree. He does not have a year to work with and the supply should be used for other things, like China garrison stocks or tank production.


They could very possibly have been damaged by the bombing/fires.

I discounted that because it was CRs first raid on Tokyo and he said it was a small one. Fires only reached around 62,000 peak and residual fires were not huge. The intel was from the day immediately following the strike, before additional from residual fires would be added in during the turn.

Edit: This stuff is only important insofar as it may indicate John is panicking and making mistakes in supply allocation, industrial planning. The 20,000 supply it cost to expand that factory from 200 K to 400 K may not matter in the big picture.



HansBolter -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/4/2017 7:07:40 PM)

Make that a range of 1 instead of zero as you want your carrier CAP to cover the invasion hex without having to enter it.

Only your CVEs can operate in the invasion hex with full air ops capabilities.

The fleet carrier air ops will be reduced 50% in a port hex.



Lokasenna -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/4/2017 7:19:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Make that a range of 1 instead of zero as you want your carrier CAP to cover the invasion hex without having to enter it.

Only your CVEs can operate in the invasion hex with full air ops capabilities.

The fleet carrier air ops will be reduced 50% in a port hex.


Nein!

Make that a range of 0, and set dedicated LRCAP squadrons with range 0 to cover the invasion hex! Ideally, a mix of range 0 CAP on the CVs(layered), range 0 LRCAP on the invasion hex (layered), and only a couple at range 1 based on the CVs (not so layered). If you have enough squadrons for that.

CVEs obviate the need for the LRCAP groups, which is why they're just so damn valuable to have.



Lokasenna -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/4/2017 7:21:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Looks like John hugely over-expanded his Ha-45 production at Tokyo (360). It would take a year to repair all that, and 360K supply.


Depends on how many Ha-45 factories he has elsewhere, and you don't need the Ha-45 until later on, so the time to repair all of it is a non-issue.

I disagree. He does not have a year to work with and the supply should be used for other things, like China garrison stocks or tank production.


They could very possibly have been damaged by the bombing/fires.

I discounted that because it was CRs first raid on Tokyo and he said it was a small one. Fires only reached around 62,000 peak and residual fires were not huge. The intel was from the day immediately following the strike, before additional from residual fires would be added in during the turn.

Edit: This stuff is only important insofar as it may indicate John is panicking and making mistakes in supply allocation, industrial planning. The 20,000 supply it cost to expand that factory from 200 K to 400 K may not matter in the big picture.


This is from observation only, so I'm not sure if documentation backs it up, but in my experience bases with bigger/more industry take damage from fires more easily.

360 points of damage to that factory, on top of damage to the other industry, may be beyond the burning capability of FOW-62K fires. Maybe. Maybe not.

I think it's probably a little more likely that John was feeling an engine crunch, so expanded... and it got damaged by the fire (by perhaps as many as a few hundred points). Given the engine type, I think it highly implausible that that factory was only size 40 and he expanded it 360 times.



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/4/2017 8:09:11 PM)

You guys may have some helpful input here because some of my carrier aircraft orders are a bit different than you're recommending:

1. I replaced most of the bigger strike aircraft squadrons with carrier-capable fighters squadrons that had been based at Manila or Taichu. The result is considerably increased defense at the expense of offense.
2. All strike aircraft remaining on carriers set to range zero.
3. I still have a lot of CVE eight-aircraft TBM squadrons. Those too set to range zero with fairly high ASW assignments.
4. Here's where I'm uncertain: In deciding between detaching CVEs to cover the invasion hex or to keep all my carriers together, I chose the latter. All carriers will be stationed a hex offshore. Perhaps 60% of fighters were set to range 1 so that they'll cover shipping in the invasion hex. I don't expect these settings to be necessary many turns, so I don't anticipate huge fatigue numbers. I think John will shoot his wad in turn one or turn two or not at all. Too, I'll probably bombard Shanghai day after tomorrow if the airfield remains full (after first sending scout ships into the hex tomorrow to gauge defenses - mines, ships, shore guns).

Is there a flaw with my orders? Is setting 60% of my fighters to range one to, in effect, provide LRCAP the wrong way to best accomplish what I'm trying to accomplish?



BBfanboy -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/4/2017 8:31:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

You guys may have some helpful input here because some of my carrier aircraft orders are a bit different than you're recommending:

1. I replaced most of the bigger strike aircraft squadrons with carrier-capable fighters squadrons that had been based at Manila or Taichu. The result is considerably increased defense at the expense of offense.
2. All strike aircraft remaining on carriers set to range zero.
3. I still have a lot of CVE eight-aircraft TBM squadrons. Those too set to range zero with fairly high ASW assignments.
4. Here's where I'm uncertain: In deciding between detaching CVEs to cover the invasion hex or to keep all my carriers together, I chose the latter. All carriers will be stationed a hex offshore. Perhaps 60% of fighters were set to range 1 so that they'll cover shipping in the invasion hex. I don't expect these settings to be necessary many turns, so I don't anticipate huge fatigue numbers. I think John will shoot his wad in turn one or turn two or not at all. Too, I'll probably bombard Shanghai day after tomorrow if the airfield remains full (after first sending scout ships into the hex tomorrow to gauge defenses - mines, ships, shore guns).

Is there a flaw with my orders? Is setting 60% of my fighters to range one to, in effect, provide LRCAP the wrong way to best accomplish what I'm trying to accomplish?


If your CVEs are in a separate TF from your Amphibs, but in the same hex, I doubt there is any danger from mines or shore guns. The hex is 40NM wide and the CVEs would be standing far offshore, not going through minefields to get to shore.
Operating from one hex away is not a mistake either, but aircraft will have less loiter time because of the need to fly one hex to and fro, and if damaged the one hex distance could mean the difference between being in the drink or landing on the CVE in time.



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/4/2017 8:36:50 PM)

Thanks to all, including Loka and BB, for all the helpful comments and insights.

I think I'll stick with my original plan - my gut tells me it'll work. This is callous, but I'm not concerned about 50 or 100 aircraft here or there. Getting the troops ashore and protecting valuable ships is the objective.



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/4/2017 8:39:43 PM)

10/21/44

Fancy Pants: D-Day tomorrow at Ningpo. This could be the last "tense" invasion of the war. Hereafter, most or all invasions will take place where the Allies really dominate the environment.

There will not be a pre-invasion bombardment. Chances of enemy shoreguns are pretty remote. If a bombardment turns out to be necessary, I'll do it on D+1. But I want to save as many combat ships as possible to bombard Shanghai or other targets.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/7456202EC1DF49BE8B6ADAE35CAA57FA.jpg[/image]



JohnDillworth -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/4/2017 8:44:23 PM)

Your in shallow water. I think that cuts sorties. I expect John has to react. maybe not he KB, but he has a huge airfiled, interior lines to keep adding aircraft and plenty of aircraft. I can't imagine why he would not come out swinging



HansBolter -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/4/2017 9:05:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Make that a range of 1 instead of zero as you want your carrier CAP to cover the invasion hex without having to enter it.

Only your CVEs can operate in the invasion hex with full air ops capabilities.

The fleet carrier air ops will be reduced 50% in a port hex.


Nein!

Make that a range of 0, and set dedicated LRCAP squadrons with range 0 to cover the invasion hex! Ideally, a mix of range 0 CAP on the CVs(layered), range 0 LRCAP on the invasion hex (layered), and only a couple at range 1 based on the CVs (not so layered). If you have enough squadrons for that.

CVEs obviate the need for the LRCAP groups, which is why they're just so damn valuable to have.



Sometimes you make me feel like a rank amateur.
Well done sir!



HansBolter -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/4/2017 9:09:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Your in shallow water. I think that cuts sorties. I expect John has to react. maybe not he KB, but he has a huge airfiled, interior lines to keep adding aircraft and plenty of aircraft. I can't imagine why he would not come out swinging



Was originally all coastal hexes that reduced fleet carrier ops, but was changed to port hexes including dot (0) ports.



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/4/2017 9:26:04 PM)

John should come out swinging...and how often have I thought that before? He's seen this storm developing for days now but a lot of his carriers remain far to the south. So I don't know if he's coming, as I think he should be, or standing off, as he's done in the past.

The possibility that he is coming is why I'm keeping my carriers and most of my combat ships together. His carriers can't stand up to mine. His combat ships can't stand up to mine (in numbers, anyhow). His air can be thorny. The combination of all three is what has me worried. But then there are all those carriers far, far away. Thank goodness.



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/4/2017 9:59:28 PM)

Orders entered and turn sent.

All the Mitchells and some of the Liberators are supposed to provide ground support tomorrow, if weather permits.

A pretty tense moment. John has a lot of forces configured. I think he'll try something. But I feel pretty good about Allied defenses and the move on Ningpo. Let's see if that confidence is well placed or misplaced.



JohnDillworth -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/4/2017 10:27:49 PM)

quote:

He's seen this storm developing for days now but a lot of his carriers remain far to the south

Oh I don't think he will brink the KB. What if one of the carriers gets a dent? I mean a big one. Can't just buff it out. Who is going to pay for that? He should have tons of kamakazi units. It's time to flood the zone . Even the best CAP gets worn out after a while



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/4/2017 10:50:15 PM)

He's loaded up Shanghai, a level 9 airfield, but I think the next biggest airfield within 10 hexes are level 3s! This is not a carefully built interlocking defensive network.

To this point, he's usually had roughly 500-600 fighters at Shanghai. Unless he puts a lot more there I doubt airpower alone will be effective for him. I have 2206 fighters on about 65 carriers. There are a handful of Seafires and even one squadron of Wildcats, but all the rest - perhaps 2,150 aircraft - are Corsairs and Hellcats.

That's why I feel like he needed interlocking, mutually supporting airfields with carrier air, combat ships, subs and mines included in the mix. A one dimensional attack may be doomed. But perhaps this won't be a one dimensional attack.



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/4/2017 11:17:31 PM)

John sent email an hour ago that he is running the turn.

He just logged onto the Forum and made his first post. I held my breath. Would the title be "Banzai!" or "Re: October 1944"?

It's "Re: October 1944."



BBfanboy -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/4/2017 11:23:16 PM)

Seeing the herd move past Wenchow might make him think Shanghai could be the invasion target, forcing him to withdraw all those fighters! [:D]



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/4/2017 11:26:34 PM)

John just sent this email: "Goodness.  I thought you were heading somewhere VITAL.  Will gladly take this as an option."

The poor boy has no idea how vital Ningpo is - and that it might represent the furthest point of advance of the Allied armies (probably not, but possibly). He has no idea how Ningpo's airfields loaded with B-24Js, P-38s and P-51s will complement Formosa's airfields stacked with B-29s.

He's got a lot to learn.



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/5/2017 12:41:47 AM)

10/22/44

Invasion of Ningpo: Off to a fine start.

John's comment about Ningpo not being vital is pretty indicative of how he and I see "vital places" differently.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/85EB31D3C71A4BBAB47FB5D90847D411.jpg[/image]



crsutton -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/5/2017 2:30:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Your in shallow water. I think that cuts sorties. I expect John has to react. maybe not he KB, but he has a huge airfiled, interior lines to keep adding aircraft and plenty of aircraft. I can't imagine why he would not come out swinging


Shallow water does not affect sorties. Only fleet carriers (CVs CVL) in a base hex suffer from the effect. CVEs do not. Any other shallow water hex or even partial land hex is just fine.



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/5/2017 3:49:24 AM)

10/22/44

Fancy Pants: Another invasion of the Heartland. Another non-appearance by enemy forces. Different perspectives on what's vital and what isn't.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/0AAF855288EF44D48C0EF6067DAEA198.jpg[/image]



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/5/2017 4:39:30 AM)

10/22/44

Ningpo Invasion Ships Sunk: In addition to those listed, I have one DD heavily damaged.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/E392A117ABC9415BAC24129F9B785CF8.jpg[/image]



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/5/2017 5:24:37 AM)

John just sent this email: "Well…you picked a fight here.  It should be a very interesting turn."

But then he closed it: "BUT I am headed for bed now.  We’ll see in the morning."

That aint right. I told him to run the turn, hit the sack, and finish the next turn tomorrow. He declined.

I don't know what he's referring to. My best guess (and this is truly only guesswork): He powers up all available kamikazes; he probably doesn't commit combat ships; he might commit carriers; Ningpo falls to the Allies.

We'll see tomorrow. Have a good'n.



BBfanboy -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/5/2017 5:42:03 AM)

The first map for 10/22/44 shows no aircraft at Shanghai but the second one with the same date does have aircraft at the base - what gives?

Re: those DDs seeking to get the TF at Canton - don't try it, you need to go through minefields at both HK and Canton (and maybe in between) plus there may be a CD unit at HK.



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/5/2017 5:44:27 AM)

The first screenshot of the map was done during the movie replay, so it isn't the "set map" used while entering orders for a turn.



JeffroK -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (8/5/2017 5:47:11 AM)

Its JIII showing that he runs the game, you only get what he chooses to release.

I hope it doesnt turn onto a Sumatra, while you own the sea & sky its the boots on the ground that hold onto the base. JIII can heavily strip his inland MLR and pile them into Ningpo (subject to stacking).

But this could give you a chance to make the China theatre active, even if only to pin or threaten to swamp him.

If JIII doesnt think a potential L9 airbase within LR Fighter range of the Home Islands does he expect you to land at an obvious target, maybe sail into Tokyo Bay (probably find he hasnt garrisoned Tokyo!)



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