RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (Full Version)

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Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (10/12/2017 7:03:44 PM)

Hey, that would be fun.

But this is a case of opportunity knocking. The only unit I have available within a week's traveling distance is part of an RN base force. Most of the base force was carried by air to coastal China. This is the "equipment" detail marching cross country to catch up. If I detach this cadre to force the river crossing, at whatever the cost, there is a chance I can then move an army out of Canton that will be strong enough to take Hong Kong.

If I don't try this gambit it will take weeks to bring up troops, as they'll have to march around Canton at length.

All of this is tentative. I don't know exactly what John has at Hong Kong yet (I suspect it isn't much but haven't gotten confirmation yet). And John may send troops out of Canton through that hexside to address this vulnerability quickly. It mightn't take much - a decent IJA infantry unit could probably handle a modest Chinese corps.

So this is a complicated and fluid situation. There may be an opportunity to accomplish something much quicker and at much less expense than otherwise.

Is it worth risking a cadre of a Brit base force to advance this possibility? Yes.



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (10/12/2017 7:13:52 PM)

12/29/44

Hong Kong Campaing: Here's hexside control and the Brit base force tasked for the job (though it's currently under advisement).

I should note that the Allies do control Canton's east hexside, so that I could march an army out that way and thence to Hong Kong. That might only add four days or so. Still, four days is a lot when the situation is this fluid.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/4C89FBF83B294544897E7C722FE10DF7.jpg[/image]



Lowpe -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (10/12/2017 7:29:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Hey, that would be fun.

But this is a case of opportunity knocking. The only unit I have available within a week's traveling distance is part of an RN base force. Most of the base force was carried by air to coastal China. This is the "equipment" detail marching cross country to catch up. If I detach this cadre to force the river crossing, at whatever the cost, there is a chance I can then move an army out of Canton that will be strong enough to take Hong Kong.

If I don't try this gambit it will take weeks to bring up troops, as they'll have to march around Canton at length.

All of this is tentative. I don't know exactly what John has at Hong Kong yet (I suspect it isn't much but haven't gotten confirmation yet). And John may send troops out of Canton through that hexside to address this vulnerability quickly. It mightn't take much - a decent IJA infantry unit could probably handle a modest Chinese corps.

So this is a complicated and fluid situation. There may be an opportunity to accomplish something much quicker and at much less expense than otherwise.

Is it worth risking a cadre of a Brit base force to advance this possibility? Yes.



Did John pull off tactics like this during his expansion?

I could make a strong argument for leaving one hex open...supply will bleed out of Canton faster, trying to feed all the troops around that can trace a valid supply path -- with most likely a fair bit going to wastage.

Also, if there exists a valid supply path, no matter how tenuous, the troops will retreat rather than dig into every nook and cranny in good defensive terrain.

PS: Just saw the picture, it isn't even a full unit, but a splinter, not even one assault point. If it happened to me, I would be really upset -- unless of course I did stuff like that prior...in which case you should have been royally upset.[:)]



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (10/12/2017 7:48:40 PM)

I don't see anything wrong with it at all. Zero. John can easily counter by moving 100 or 200 AV out of Canton into the hex between there and Hong Kong. And he should. He shouldn't be "safe" in any way if he leaves such a key hex undefended (not that he will; just "if he does.")

But if folks think this is just over the top, I won't do it. Here at the end of all things I'd hate to have a dust-up over sportsmanship.



HansBolter -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (10/12/2017 7:53:40 PM)

I cast my vote for A-OK.

How many times have many of us heard the chorus that it is a game and not a simulation?

To the game an LCU is an LCU.

Any LCU, or fragment that can move can cross a hexside and win control.

Any LCU can obstruct a retreat or block a supply line.

I often use HQ units to occupy adjacent hexes to create a 'surround' so all the units with an assault value can participate in the siege of the surrounded hex.

You guys need to stop crying 'simulation' when its a game, because that's exactly what yer doin with the criticism.




Lowpe -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (10/12/2017 7:53:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I don't see anything wrong with it at all. Zero. John can easily counter by moving 100 or 200 AV out of Canton into the hex between there and Hong Kong. And he should. He shouldn't be "safe" in any way if he leaves such a key hex undefended (not that he will; just "if he does.")

But if folks think this is just over the top, I won't do it. Here at the end of all things I'd hate to have a dust-up over sportsmanship.


You know him better than me. But didn't he get upset over your use of one ship pickets? Or am I confused, again.[:)]



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (10/12/2017 8:00:29 PM)

If the opposing player gets upset about your team stealing home, do you stop stealing home?



Lowpe -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (10/12/2017 8:06:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

If the opposing player gets upset about your team stealing home, do you stop stealing home?


It is your game to play as you see fit.



Andav -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (10/12/2017 8:12:11 PM)


I do not have a problem with the base force closing the hex side. Like you said, John should not allow it.

witpqs used P-51s mostly on ground attacks in our game. When he used them as sweepers, they were routinely mauled. P-47s do not have the legs for these sweeps right?

Wa



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (10/12/2017 8:12:18 PM)

I've already said I won't be doing it.



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (10/12/2017 8:21:31 PM)

P-47D25s have the legs to sweep Nagasaki (and maybe Fukuoka), but they don't perform well. They're too scarce and too necessary to base defense to risk in such a manner.

So the Corsairs will be the working mule of this campaign, with Mustangs, Lightnings and Thunderbolts serving only in select situations, when I think they can overwhelm a fragile enemy CAP.



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (10/12/2017 8:29:15 PM)

Regarding what's kosher and what isn't, many years ago I offered this test: Could it/would it have been done in the real war? If not, is there a counter to it? If the answer to either question is in the affirmative it's fare game for the game.

I've offered before that the single most significant unrealistic tactic of the game is the magic 24-hour flank speed carrier run while the opposition ships are frozen into immobility. Using flank speed, KB can move roughly 800 miles in one day. Sometimes those carriers may be under close observation. In the real war, the opposition commander would have ordered all vulnerable shipping to flee as soon as reports of enemy carriers on the move started coming in. But because of the way the game works, those orders can't be issued. The carriers move those 800 miles plus the additional eight-hex strike range, meaning shipping that was 1000 miles distant when the magic move commenced can be hit...and then never did the slightest thing about it.

I have no problem with that. Under the right circumstances I would use it myself. John has used it many times in this game. It's just an aspect of the game. It couldn't have happened in the real war....but there is a counter to it. Deploy picket ships and always keep in mind the need to maintain a thousand mile cushion, if at all possible. Sometimes it isn't. So sometimes we willingly assume the risk. And sometimes we pay for it.

That's stealing home. It's part of the game. Nobody complains about it.



MakeeLearn -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (10/12/2017 8:48:47 PM)

quote:

P-47D25s have the legs to sweep Nagasaki (and maybe Fukuoka), but they don't perform well.
They're too scarce and too necessary to base defense to risk in such a manner.


Too bad...so sad...

[image]local://upfiles/55056/29C33E9C7B084FBAA29734A27ED89BDF.jpg[/image]



BBfanboy -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (10/12/2017 9:10:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

quote:

P-47D25s have the legs to sweep Nagasaki (and maybe Fukuoka), but they don't perform well.
They're too scarce and too necessary to base defense to risk in such a manner.


Too bad...so sad...

[image]local://upfiles/55056/29C33E9C7B084FBAA29734A27ED89BDF.jpg[/image]

Whoa! Are you planning on moving your big unit to close that hexside and prevent those impressive assets from escaping? Gotta prevent the breakout to keep the picture from getting NFW. [:'(]



MakeeLearn -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (10/12/2017 11:25:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

quote:

P-47D25s have the legs to sweep Nagasaki (and maybe Fukuoka), but they don't perform well.
They're too scarce and too necessary to base defense to risk in such a manner.


Too bad...so sad...



Whoa! Are you planning on moving your big unit to close that hexside and prevent those impressive assets from escaping? Gotta prevent the breakout to keep the picture from getting NFW. [:'(]



They were good "sweepers" until the 40mm Wooden Stake AA was rolled out.



Capt. Harlock -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (10/13/2017 4:25:02 AM)

quote:

But this is a case of opportunity knocking. The only unit I have available within a week's traveling distance is part of an RN base force. Most of the base force was carried by air to coastal China. This is the "equipment" detail marching cross country to catch up. If I detach this cadre to force the river crossing, at whatever the cost, there is a chance I can then move an army out of Canton that will be strong enough to take Hong Kong.

If I don't try this gambit it will take weeks to bring up troops, as they'll have to march around Canton at length.


Like the suiciding of the already-battered 1st Minnesota during the second day of Gettysburg -- when there's nothing else at hand and no time, you use what you have.



Barb -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (10/13/2017 7:16:37 AM)

One more comment regarding the BF fragment on hex side-control ... IRL, when the situation was desperate, even the cooks and typists were thrown into the line to help plug the lines. Regardless of unit, or equipment, or training. So few AA guns and trucks on way to rejoin their parent unit could be easily re-routed by couple of MPs and thrown into the line - even if that meant "manning" a several mile long "gap". Of course this would not be a permanent solution and they should be relieved as soon as possible by some combat unit.

Of course the game simulates this as a 40-mile wide gap, but IRL you would have combat troops approaching from the wings, so probably leaving the gap just a few miles wide. That could be a crucial road, or a bridge - that could be easily blocked by several well sited AA guns and guns prepared for direct fire.



GetAssista -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (10/13/2017 8:04:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
I've offered before that the single most significant unrealistic tactic of the game is the magic 24-hour flank speed carrier run while the opposition ships are frozen into immobility. Using flank speed, KB can move roughly 800 miles in one day. Sometimes those carriers may be under close observation. In the real war, the opposition commander would have ordered all vulnerable shipping to flee as soon as reports of enemy carriers on the move started coming in.

Strictly speaking, you can have this ingame with the usage of TF threat tolerance levels. And it works, TFs react to unspotted carriers and move out of the way if they have enough mobility



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (10/13/2017 12:47:39 PM)

Yes but that's an imperfect solution. Low threat tolerance TFs won't react until the enemy carriers are pretty close - often close enough to be within air range. Can you image relying on threat tolerance setting to manage risk to big transport TFs or comparatively smaller carrier TFs?



Mike McCreery -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (10/13/2017 12:54:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Yes but that's an imperfect solution. Low threat tolerance TFs won't react until the enemy carriers are pretty close - often close enough to be within air range. Can you image relying on threat tolerance setting to manage risk to big transport TFs or comparatively smaller carrier TFs?


I always use absolute. It ensures my transport fleets dont do anything stupid ever. Well, they do all the time but because I tell them to, not because the computer tells them to move in some random pattern.



AcePylut -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (10/13/2017 1:09:33 PM)

Could it/would it have been done in the real war?


Could you you have major unescorted convoys within 800 miles of a fully armed and operational KB? YEs. Would you? No.

Could the US roll around around with every carrier within a 40mile radius of each other? Yes. Would they? No.




Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (10/13/2017 1:32:20 PM)

That list is endless:

Could Japan have had KB in the DEI while the Allies were taking Luzon, Formosa, and Coastal China? Yes. Would they have? No.

Could the Japanese Army and Navy cooperated? Well...no. Would they have? Well...no.

Could Japan have rebased Netties at 500 miles and then flown offensive missions at max range that same day? No. Did they? No.

Meaning: there are all kinds of abstractions in the game that imperfectly represent the real war. That's just the way it is.

By the same token, if the Allied had faced an uber Japanese air power with (seemingly) unlimited air frames that equaled or exceeded what the Allies had in late 1944, and if the Allies had opportunities to penetrate deep into enemy territory, would they have adapted the necessary doctrine to make it possible? Of course.

Note here that I am not complaining about any of the tactics employed by John. They are part of the game. And there are counters available to me.

I know that John is irritated about Death Star's size. In my opinion that's nonsense, just like it would be for me to have complained about his magic 24-hour headstart carrier raids in the Gulf of Carpentaria a week ago or in the Bay of Bengal two years ago or whenever.

But the test is objective and it does work good. Here's one application: Could Japan have gone hunting for Saratoga in port in San Diego on December 7, 1941? No. Would Japan have? It couldn't have. Is there a counter strategy by the Allies? No.

By that test, a Japanese raid on San Diego on December 7 would be an unfair tactic. But nobody does something that unsporting.



BBfanboy -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (10/13/2017 1:42:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

One more comment regarding the BF fragment on hex side-control ... IRL, when the situation was desperate, even the cooks and typists were thrown into the line to help plug the lines. Regardless of unit, or equipment, or training. So few AA guns and trucks on way to rejoin their parent unit could be easily re-routed by couple of MPs and thrown into the line - even if that meant "manning" a several mile long "gap". Of course this would not be a permanent solution and they should be relieved as soon as possible by some combat unit.

Of course the game simulates this as a 40-mile wide gap, but IRL you would have combat troops approaching from the wings, so probably leaving the gap just a few miles wide. That could be a crucial road, or a bridge - that could be easily blocked by several well sited AA guns and guns prepared for direct fire.

The entire hex diameter is 46 statute miles wide, so each hex side would only be ~ 15 statute miles. But your point is still good. [:)]



AcePylut -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (10/13/2017 2:02:53 PM)

his is a fun: Could the Chinese Nationalists and Chinese Communists worked together on a large scale? Well...no. Would they have? Well...not really. Wouldn’t it be grand if the Nationalists and Communists were not allowed to be “one” China.

I don’t really have an issue with the possibility of an “800 mile warp” by the KB. Plenty of ways to avoid it – namely, don’t run convoys in range of detection, and treat any KB within 20 hexes of a major convoy as a serious threat.

I’m not sure if the tactic of “putting all your carriers in 1 hex with 1000 other ships” was adequately considered by the devs. It is what it is, I don’t have a problem with it. If I know all your carriers are “here”, then I know they’re not “there”. The thing that should/could/maybe be done (too late at this point in AE’s development) is to add a “ship stacking limit” to the hex… where each hex can “stack” this-many ships (be that by tonnage, or displacement, length, whatever). If you go over that limit, there is an increased chance of ship to ship collision… and this chance increases exponentially as the number of ships in the hex increase.

I don’t like the “rebase and fly that day” aspect of AE, but it “is what it is”. I think adding some code that “disabled missions the day of rebasing” would be a good thing.

I think at this point, we’ve all accepted what AE does, and that provides a great game to play. Not thqat you are, but complaining that “you can or can’t do this or that – and that could/would/should never happen” is missing the point. None of us want a “real” simulation where we have to determine exactly how many beans, bullets, and buttwipe each soldier in each squad of every combat unit “gets” and make sure that each dockyard loading supply is loading that specific bullet for that soldiers rifle. No one wants to make sure that each British soldiers has their “pasta point” less they suffer a decrease in morale.



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (10/13/2017 2:19:58 PM)

I've never had all my carriers in a single hex.

Right now, four fleet carriers and about 15 CVE and CVL are elsewhere. That's been the case pretty much throughout the game.

But I do have a heckuva lot of carriers in a single hex. There would be plenty of room for them there and doctrine/necessity calls for it, as much as doctrine calls for (or encourages) the Japanese Army and Navy to coordinate.

We've agreed to play a scenario in which Japan gets a beefed up navy and air force - the latter much, much stronger in ratio to the Allies than what it was in the real war. The disparity was so great that John has since modified the mod considerably, adding additional Allied fighters to the pools, allowing players to purchase more fighters by purchasing using political points, enhancing political point accrual, etc. None of those "fixes" was retroactive. We're playing the original mod. Under these circumstances it behooves the Allies to play a much tighter defense than happened in the real war. And most of you guys know that about all I've done with Death Star is use it defensively. There have been nearly zero offensive raid. She's simply been shepherding and protecting the merchantmen and combat ships in an environment where Japan is probably 5x more powerful than it was in the real war by late 1944.






alimentary -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (10/13/2017 2:28:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
The entire hex diameter is 46 statute miles wide, so each hex side would only be ~ 15 statute miles.

If the corner to opposite corner hex diameter is 46 miles then each face is 23 miles in length.
If the face to opposite face hex diameter is 46 miles then each face is approximately 30 miles in length.



HansBolter -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (10/13/2017 3:35:13 PM)

The hex distance would have to be measured face to face as that is the direction of movement regulated by the distances of 40 nautical miles and 46 statute miles.



Lokasenna -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (10/13/2017 3:45:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr


I always use absolute. It ensures my fleets dont do anything stupid ever. Well... because I tell them to, not because the computer tells them


Exactly.



Lowpe -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (10/13/2017 5:40:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Yes but that's an imperfect solution. Low threat tolerance TFs won't react until the enemy carriers are pretty close - often close enough to be within air range. Can you image relying on threat tolerance setting to manage risk to big transport TFs or comparatively smaller carrier TFs?


Low threat would be the wrong setting to use to avoid enemy air power.



MakeeLearn -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (10/13/2017 5:58:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Yes but that's an imperfect solution. Low threat tolerance TFs won't react until the enemy carriers are pretty close - often close enough to be within air range. Can you image relying on threat tolerance setting to manage risk to big transport TFs or comparatively smaller carrier TFs?


Low threat would be the wrong setting to use to avoid enemy air power.



You big TEASE [;)]....

"Routing Control" for reactions to ALL enemy air threats?
"Threat Tolerance" only for reactions to enemy "ship/sub" threats?



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