RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (Full Version)

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paullus99 -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (1/31/2018 6:52:08 PM)

I would say, however, that the enormous numbers of Western Forces committed to China (and Korea) would fundamentally change the outlook after the war.

At minimum, there would be no divided Korea & a real possibility of a relatively stable nationalist Chinese government after the war - at least in the short term.



JohnDillworth -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (1/31/2018 8:22:40 PM)

Perhaps but I would not underestimate the Americans desire to be done with all of this. They had no colonial ambitions or empires beyond the Philippines and cared little about helping Europe regain theirs. Their soldiers wanted to go home and the Soviet Union was an ally, not a competitor. I think the occupation of Japan would have gone on and not much more. I think they quickly realized that the Chinese were more than ready to pick up where they left off before Japan forced the uneasy alliance between the Nationalists and the Communists. The United States really didn’t challenge Stalin’s European land grab so I think they would take serious sides in China. The United States armed forces really though of themselves as civilians , not full time soldiers. There would have been considerable unrest if they were asked to engage in another Asian war.



AcePylut -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (1/31/2018 8:42:40 PM)

We would have been free from Russia interference for a couple-few years. Because we had the bomb, and they didn't, and there was no fears of "nuclear winter" or "MAD".



crsutton -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/1/2018 12:09:22 AM)

No, not at all. Half a million American troops did not change the fundamental outlook in North Vietnam and would not have affected the national aspirations of half a billion Chinese and Koreans. It all was a backlash against 200 years of Western interference. Short and simple. Nobody wants foreigners calling the shots. Look at our own US response to British dominance. If we had stayed and tried harder, we would have become the same as the Japanese in their eyes. As it was, it soured our relationship with the (communist) Chinese for decades after. And they still have little trust for us today.



JohnDillworth -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/1/2018 12:13:24 AM)

quote:

John Dillworth, a resident of Long Island, which is 18 light years distant from the place I live, is a gentleman who, in temperament, seems like a lifelong friend.


I am truly and deeply touched. I feel the same. I enjoy the company of gentlemen here. Most places of common discourse have been somewhat poised by politics these days. A tip of the cap to the moderators and fellow members who shut down such discussions quickly. Dan, I expect I am the polar opposite of you on many things and it does not matter a single bit. I've had the pleasure to get to know you, and others, by an odd little common interest in a war fought 70+ years ago. That's what brought us all together , but we discuss much more and all us us have much in common beyond the War in the Pacific. I expect I may read this AAR again and revisit some of the tangent conversations (we just did a couple of pages on oak trees recently!). Thanks for keeping this alive. I'm sure this is just the end of a chapter and we shall all be around this forum for a good long time to come.



RangerJoe -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/1/2018 1:29:13 AM)

I have learned a lot here and not just about the game. Since I lost my bookmarks, I am going to go over the entire AAR later and make a file for all of the books that were recommended.

I have also learned that I will NOT want to hike where Dan does since I might have to get airlifted out!



RangerJoe -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/1/2018 1:34:02 AM)

I think that once the Soviets gave the Communist Chinese a lot if not all of the captured Japanese equipment beside what the Communist Chinese the American equipment that they received during the war, the the Red Army was capable of taking on the Nationalist Chinese Army. In the world in this simulation, the Soviets won't have that much Japanese equipment to give away.



crsutton -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/1/2018 3:20:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I think that once the Soviets gave the Communist Chinese a lot if not all of the captured Japanese equipment beside what the Communist Chinese the American equipment that they received during the war, the the Red Army was capable of taking on the Nationalist Chinese Army. In the world in this simulation, the Soviets won't have that much Japanese equipment to give away.


The Soviets gave surprisingly little support to the Red Chinese, and the Nationalist Chinese were flooded with American surplus equipment and support in the initial stages of the post war Civil War. It was not about the material because the Nationalists were surely better equipped. Captured Japanese equipment was not much of a bonus and since the Japanese troops were primarily occupying Nationalist territory and not Red Chinese, my guess is that the vast bulk of captured Japanese equipment did not fall into the hands of the Reds.



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/1/2018 3:45:18 PM)

4/15/45

I'm in the midst of proofing the Spring 2018 issue of the magazine. I managed to squeeze in a turn yesterday but not an AAR post. That's pretty rare. So this post is a day late.

Asia: Weather socks in the 4EB but the Allies are moving in Korea and China. Wenchow falls and it's D-Day for the invasion of Antung, which is Manchukuo proper.



[image]local://upfiles/8143/E48784D845A44DB2B727145E08484032.jpg[/image]



Alfred -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/1/2018 5:27:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I think that once the Soviets gave the Communist Chinese a lot if not all of the captured Japanese equipment beside what the Communist Chinese the American equipment that they received during the war, the the Red Army was capable of taking on the Nationalist Chinese Army. In the world in this simulation, the Soviets won't have that much Japanese equipment to give away.


The Soviets gave surprisingly little support to the Red Chinese, and the Nationalist Chinese were flooded with American surplus equipment and support in the initial stages of the post war Civil War. It was not about the material because the Nationalists were surely better equipped. Captured Japanese equipment was not much of a bonus and since the Japanese troops were primarily occupying Nationalist territory and not Red Chinese, my guess is that the vast bulk of captured Japanese equipment did not fall into the hands of the Reds.


The equipment is a red herring.

The KMT lost the post WWII Civil War before it even started. The great inflation of 1943 eroded the support for the KMT. With the inflation came starvation. Compared to the much better administered Communist controlled area where the social fabric had not been similarly affected, not too many of the ordinary people who lived in Nationalist controlled territory had much goodwill left towards Chiang after 1945.

Alfred



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/1/2018 5:37:24 PM)

4/16/45

Catching up to the turn John sent early this morning. He's out of town until Monday.

Korea: Allied shock attack hammers shattered enemy troops retreating from Keijo.

Manchuria: Australian amphibious force takes Antung, the first base to fall in Manchukuo.

China: Big and strong Japanese stack nearly destroys weak Indian division while main Allied western army stack does similar work against 23rd Division. The race is on to close the Kaifeng Pocket before the heart of John's army - some 94k soldiers including four good divisions - can escape. I think I can do it.

Yellow Sea: Strong enemy combat TF enters the Yellow Sea for no reason I can discern except to Banzai.

Strategic Bombing: Effective raids vs. Sapporo (unopposed) and Shimonoseki (opposed, and my sweeping fighters were all grounded) doing heavy damage. I lost a decent number of bombers, but overall the past two weeks have been very effective with modest bomber losses.



[image]local://upfiles/8143/C3049FEE970E4910B2D7F14EE5C26A19.jpg[/image]



crsutton -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/1/2018 7:35:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

4/16/45

Catching up to the turn John sent early this morning. He's out of town until Monday.

Korea: Allied shock attack hammers shattered enemy troops retreating from Keijo.

Manchuria: Australian amphibious force takes Antung, the first base to fall in Manchukuo.

China: Big and strong Japanese stack nearly destroys weak Indian division while main Allied western army stack does similar work against 23rd Division. The race is on to close the Kaifeng Pocket before the heart of John's army - some 94k soldiers including four good divisions - can escape. I think I can do it.

Yellow Sea: Strong enemy combat TF enters the Yellow Sea for no reason I can discern except to Banzai.

Strategic Bombing: Effective raids vs. Sapporo (unopposed) and Shimonoseki (opposed, and my sweeping fighters were all grounded) doing heavy damage. I lost a decent number of bombers, but overall the past two weeks have been very effective with modest bomber losses.



[image]local://upfiles/8143/C3049FEE970E4910B2D7F14EE5C26A19.jpg[/image]


Really Dan....Do you mind. We are trying to have a serious political discussion here and you kept interrupting. [;)]



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/1/2018 7:42:27 PM)

Yeah, I noticed!

That discussion is so far beyond what I know about the topic that I am unable to comment or to feign a slight comprehension.



paullus99 -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/1/2018 9:34:22 PM)

I'd say, at minimum, CR is going into Post-War Asia with a United Korea & quite possibly at least a Pro-West Southern China.

Perhaps we might see the Korea situation play out in this timeline as a "North & South China."




BBfanboy -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/1/2018 9:45:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99

I'd say, at minimum, CR is going into Post-War Asia with a United Korea & quite possibly at least a Pro-West Southern China.

Perhaps we might see the Korea situation play out in this timeline as a "North & South China."



Man, I hope we stay out of that one!



JohnDillworth -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/1/2018 11:03:31 PM)

quote:

I'd say, at minimum, CR is going into Post-War Asia with a United Korea & quite possibly at least a Pro-West Southern China.

Perhaps we might see the Korea situation play out in this timeline as a "North & South China."

The proletariat will believe what they are told comrade. Japanese bombs, Capitalist bombs. It matters not to the peasants.

[image]local://upfiles/31520/655C2D0F55484F5FAC0BA17A7364AE8E.jpg[/image]



JohnDillworth -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/1/2018 11:27:08 PM)

Who's next?

[image]local://upfiles/31520/0FB6299A63F845838812F3BEA4F78403.jpg[/image]



paullus99 -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/2/2018 11:51:00 AM)

It just depends on how the KMT & Communist forces interacted during the large-scale conflict in China - especially given the vast numbers of Western Troops involved as well.

I'll just put it out there that the dynamic would have been significantly different...thus we might have seen a very different outcome in attitudes towards the West.



MakeeLearn -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/2/2018 2:20:33 PM)

Postwar...

[image]local://upfiles/55056/6C1F86DDDB894FB0B0AF14A8FAF29FA5.jpg[/image]



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/2/2018 4:39:15 PM)

I spent the early morning hours one day in November writing a story, posting progress reports in my AAR.

That story is slated for the Spring 2018 issue of my magazine, as set forth below. It is substantially the same as the version I posted back in November.

A few comments by Forumites back then made an impression, including "Good morning, Mr. Sunshine" (I think that was by Jwolf or Acepylut). Also, somebody recommended omitting the Byron Reece poetry quote. I considered doing so - I saw the merit in doing so - but ultimately decided to leave it intact.

I read this story aloud to a class of older folks back then and received a pretty enthusiastic response. So I think readers will enjoy it.

I'm under no impression that I'm destined for fame or fortune as a writer. I'm clearly not. But I am thankful that when I work hard and do my best, I'm capable of creating things that don't prompt massive letter-writing campaigns to have me sacked.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/4B9A965A382140808F5FAA7E26145E07.jpg[/image]



AcePylut -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/2/2018 4:54:46 PM)

A Dr. Zhivago reference - awesome! I was just thinking of that movie last week. Wierd.



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/2/2018 5:09:37 PM)

There's a scene in which Yuri enters a small, hushed library and unexpectedly finds Lara seated, highlighted by a sun ray, a sunflower on her desk. No wonder Yuri was a poet.



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/2/2018 5:11:29 PM)

This is the scene.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/AA48AC5E858E4D6ABC582DA6B45173FA.jpg[/image]



JohnDillworth -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/2/2018 10:29:04 PM)

I enjoyed that Dan. You mention stopping time. great art or beauty can stop time. Time is a bit of a human construct so human creation can stop it I suppose. I kind of keep a mental list of music that seems to stop time. Mozart can do it. Schubert, who did not live long enough, could do it too. 2nd movement of the Quintet In C. But I will give you a better example that everyone will know. Schuberts Ave Maria. A good performance of that will make the hair on your arms stand up. Every hear Johnny Cashs version of "Hurt"? yeah...that too



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/2/2018 10:46:14 PM)

I haven't experienced music stopping time, John, but I recognize what you're saying. There are times that music brings stinging tears to my eyes.

Sometimes that's for sentimental reasons: a song that meant something to us in youth or when we first fell in love, or patriotic songs. Just one example of that is Glenn Miller's rendition of Chattanooga Choo Choo, which brings to mind my parents, of the WWII generation, dancing when I was a little boy.

But sometimes it's the sheer beauty of a composition or arrangement or performance. Some of Tchaikovsky's works do that for me. And I think it would happen more often if I lived in a place where I could readily access live performances, for I've noticed that it happens almost without fail when I'm sitting in a theater or concert hall on rare occasions.

If you make me sit through loud rock concerts (including Christian rock), the tears are for another reason altogether. I hate noise.





JohnDillworth -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/2/2018 11:52:00 PM)





quote:

And I think it would happen more often if I lived in a place where I could readily access live performances, for I've noticed that it happens almost without fail when I'm sitting in a theater or concert hall on rare occasions.


When I was in college, Leonard Bernstein was the conductor of the New York Philharmonic at Avery Fischer Hall. On Friday afternoons he would rehearse the orchestra. Closed rehearsal.....unless you were a college student where your ID would get you in for $4. Many Fridays I would attend these rehearsals with many, many of the greats. I feel like I grew up when giants walked the earth. Not a week goes by I don't think of one of those rehearsals. What an extraordinary privilege and how lucky I was



Canoerebel -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/3/2018 1:47:12 AM)

Via YouTube, I regularly listen to symphonic performances, especially Bernstein's handling of Tchaikovsky's 5th Symphony and the Seoul (Korea) orchestra's handling of Tchaikovsky's 6th. (One aspect I like is comparing the Seoul conductor's handling of his business compared to Bernstein's - very different styles).

John, here's a comparison of your environment (Bernstein on Friday's) compared to one of my favorite memories.

In October of about '08 or so, I was mountain biking on a long, dusty dirt road in the flat woods at Berry College, at 28,000 acres the largest college campus in the world. As I peddled along, a terrific thunderstorm hit. In seconds, I was shivering while peddling through the thickest of Georgia red-clay mud. The closest "oasis" was Frost Chapel on Berry's Mountain Campus. I peddled up the to the front porch, found the door open, and entered the sanctuary. I was the only person inside the hushed chapel except for a young coed who was practicing a solo. She didn't know I had entered the building. She didn't know she had a single, sodden, disheveled bike rider as an audience. I stood in the quite warmth of the chapel, grateful to be out of the storm, and listened to her sing beautifully. A half hour later, the storm ended, I got back on my bike, and peddled across the wet woodland roads to my old pickup truck.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/FA1B8774FA2540D2A4BF13B4AA4BECAE.jpg[/image]



crsutton -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/3/2018 5:29:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I haven't experienced music stopping time, John, but I recognize what you're saying. There are times that music brings stinging tears to my eyes.

Sometimes that's for sentimental reasons: a song that meant something to us in youth or when we first fell in love, or patriotic songs. Just one example of that is Glenn Miller's rendition of Chattanooga Choo Choo, which brings to mind my parents, of the WWII generation, dancing when I was a little boy.

But sometimes it's the sheer beauty of a composition or arrangement or performance. Some of Tchaikovsky's works do that for me. And I think it would happen more often if I lived in a place where I could readily access live performances, for I've noticed that it happens almost without fail when I'm sitting in a theater or concert hall on rare occasions.

If you make me sit through loud rock concerts (including Christian rock), the tears are for another reason altogether. I hate noise.





Not the sentimental type at all but saw a flash mob performance of Beethoven's Ode to Joy (9th?) that just made me a little verklempt. Not even into classical but there something about it....



RangerJoe -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/3/2018 9:04:45 PM)

Those are some very pretty pictures. They would make some challenging puzzles!



Lokasenna -> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent (2/4/2018 9:14:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I haven't experienced music stopping time, John, but I recognize what you're saying. There are times that music brings stinging tears to my eyes.

Sometimes that's for sentimental reasons: a song that meant something to us in youth or when we first fell in love, or patriotic songs. Just one example of that is Glenn Miller's rendition of Chattanooga Choo Choo, which brings to mind my parents, of the WWII generation, dancing when I was a little boy.

But sometimes it's the sheer beauty of a composition or arrangement or performance. Some of Tchaikovsky's works do that for me. And I think it would happen more often if I lived in a place where I could readily access live performances, for I've noticed that it happens almost without fail when I'm sitting in a theater or concert hall on rare occasions.

If you make me sit through loud rock concerts (including Christian rock), the tears are for another reason altogether. I hate noise.





Not the sentimental type at all but saw a flash mob performance of Beethoven's Ode to Joy (9th?) that just made me a little verklempt. Not even into classical but there something about it....



But do you guys experience frisson?

In my experience, once you start... it intensifies throughout life to the point where even just the hint of something that would do it touches it off.



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