RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (Full Version)

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Denniss -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/22/2013 8:32:43 PM)

Please have a look at the items in transfer pool, AFAIR the oversize reduction items (from TOE upgrade with lower overall numbers) will be at least one turn in transfer pool. in bad weather but especially at blizzard, a lot more damaged items are sent back to pool and back to units.

T136 screen shows 38 units still on the old mot inf squads with somewhat low pool for the old types. How's the pool for panzer grenadier squads old/new?
What are the german units using the 3/44 cavalry squad(-) in 11/43? We had a fix for this too early use but I don't know how old your game is (may still be affected).



morvael -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/22/2013 8:37:26 PM)

From my "TOE Details" report, it seems there are some minor issues with TOE composition left (unavailable elements assigned to TOE, that sometimes have upgrades and/or alternatives). Also, in previous versions there were problems with making the TOE accept alternative items from the same class if they were not the exact type and/or in it's upgrade path. Those units were just content to stick with rotating items, of which the pools was growing smaller and smaller every turn. I see a lof of German squads have no upgrade paths defined, so they are all alternatives.

But in this case I think it may be the "pay again for almost the same weapons" logic that is sucking the arm pool.



Peltonx -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/22/2013 8:41:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

This old set of weapons awaits to be recycled into arm points but it will take year(s) to do it, so late in the game it may actually mean never.

That's why I'm saying any problems with combat or production system that yield ahistorical results must be countered by ahistorical production capabilities, historical accuracy be damned. If other aspects are not following history, then another one cannot stick to it, to the detriment of players.

Bear in mind that these are all my personal opinions based on what I have seen in the game (haven't played much, but with attention to detail) and what I have read on these forums. So I may be wrong.


Your right sadly, Flaviusx saw an issue but could not put his finger on it. I saw something up in blizzard 42 (upgrades) which started crippling my army, but it recovered quickly.

Yes to the players detrement 100's of hr's time will be wasted unless 2by3 hot patchs our games as they did Tarhunnas's and Grids.

Thanks for you input man, sorry if you get hit with a sht storm as is normal for poeple that bring up faults in the game.

I have 4 games on going 3 as GHC and 1 as SHC all in 43+ and all those hrs are simply wasted because of what looks to be a major design flaw. My win as SHC will have nothing to do with skills, but its simply because GHC OOB disappears by the current design.

I guess that as you say the Germans are on vacaction with there rifles in Middle Earth from Jan 44 to Jan 1st 45 heheheeeeeeeee



Peltonx -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/22/2013 8:47:09 PM)

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Peltonx -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/22/2013 8:47:30 PM)

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Peltonx -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/22/2013 8:47:51 PM)

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morvael -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/22/2013 8:50:34 PM)

Soviet army goes through several squad upgrades as well. But as the war goes on, they can accept the ARM cost.

For the swap/upgrade issue I found earlier check here:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3221910

It was patched but I'm not sure if it was a direct fix or several fixes "around" the main issue, that were problems on their own right, and helped to alleviate it. See 1.6.22 patch notes (point 5 in New Features and points 11 and 12 in Bug Fixes).



morvael -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/22/2013 8:51:36 PM)

Showing screenshots will not help much, you must do some calculations like I did in the post I mentioned. Only then the trends will be more visible.



Peltonx -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/22/2013 8:52:20 PM)

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Peltonx -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/22/2013 8:52:41 PM)

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Peltonx -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/22/2013 8:53:05 PM)

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Peltonx -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/22/2013 8:54:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Showing screenshots will not help much, you must do some calculations like I did in the post I mentioned. Only then the trends will be more visible.


Ok sounds like fun got nothing esle to do now.

In the other game thats falling apart the system refuses to build mech squads to the point units withdrawing are sitting on the map for 5+ turns waiting on just 3% more replasments(still sitting there). They even tried turning just those units on reift and they are still there no replasements. Looks like the squad upgrades or something is bugged with that game.

The issue looks allot bigger then what your pointing to as even when GHC has enough armament points the manpower pool is ballooning and OOB crashing very quickly. This of course will snowball like everything esle.



rmonical -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/22/2013 8:57:59 PM)

Note that the overlap period between new (with Panzerfaust) and the old (motorized) rifle squads ends on 12/43. Both are available 1/43-12/43.

In Pelton's example, of the 27 divisions with new style rifle squads, how many also have old style squads. Is there a problem assigning new style squads to divisions with old style squads? Looking at the 44 campaign scenario, everyone (except security is converted). In the 43 campaign scenario, the LW, Mountain and Jager divisions join the security divisions in not being converted to the panzerfaulst squads. All of the regular infantry is converted.

I find no examples of a division with both types of squads.



morvael -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/22/2013 8:58:07 PM)

This just begs for writing a program that would take this data and make calculations and present results. Doing it by hand will be a chore. Unfortunately, I don't have time :(

It would be interesting to do a full scan, not only a class scan as I did in my post (for AA guns). Might be worth finding out how many items of each type gets produced and how much ARMs each of these costed.



rmonical -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/22/2013 9:07:21 PM)

quote:

I find no examples of a division with both types of squads.


It does not help the games in progress, but I bet this problem could be fixed by adding a second slot in the various division types for the 43 (motorized) rifle squad.



Peltonx -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/22/2013 9:09:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

This just begs for writing a program that would take this data and make calculations and present results. Doing it by hand will be a chore. Unfortunately, I don't have time :(

It would be interesting to do a full scan, not only a class scan as I did in my post (for AA guns). Might be worth finding out how many items of each type gets produced and how much ARMs each of these costed.


We really do not have to as all games will crash by late 44, the proof in the end is the burning ashes of the house.

I hope we will not see this design flaw in witw, as this will be my first question I will ask.

I am guessing this flaw will never pass muster in any 1939-1941 test or War in Europe crashing the game long before 44.

I use to think that the logistic system was the biggest problem, but this is more of an issue.




Peltonx -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/22/2013 9:12:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical

quote:

I find no examples of a division with both types of squads.


It does not help the games in progress, but I bet this problem could be fixed by adding a second slot in the various division types for the 43 (motorized) rifle squad.


The sad thing is this was the issue with Wolf and the Bear and it was never addresses only hot patched.

I am guessing because it would require a major over haul of the game engine itself.

Fingers crossed this is not part of witw or wite2



Peltonx -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/22/2013 9:13:21 PM)

2by3?




rmonical -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/22/2013 9:18:06 PM)

quote:

In Pelton's example, of the 27 divisions with new style rifle squads, how many also have old style squads


Can you confirm that those 27 divisions only have new style squads? The same question for Disgruntled Veteran. Do the various divisions not getting squads only have old style squads?



Denniss -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/22/2013 9:36:03 PM)

8600 MG 34 machine guns squads sit in your pool unused - I believe Jim should remove the upgrade path from MG 34 type to MG 42 type, both co-existed and AFAIR both were produced until the end (although late-war MG 34 production was more for tanks than for infantry). If a units gets MG 42 via TOE upgrade it should receive them but otherwise they should stay at MG 34. This is another armament sink - 34k wasted in your case.

Screens show the usual problems - no use of the Sturmpanzer IV (Brummbar), almost no usage of the StuH 42, upgrade problems for Panzergrenadier squads (should be fixed now with upgrade path set in generic data).
I assume the massive amounts of support and 50mm mortars are from oversize reduction in infantry divs.



morvael -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/22/2013 10:00:57 PM)

If no other fix could be implemented due to lack of time for coding, perhaps besides optimizing the TOE to better fit production available at given moment, the late war squads could get a discount to their price to accomodate for the older squads frozen in the pool?



Peltonx -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/22/2013 10:09:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

If no other fix could be implemented due to lack of time for coding, perhaps besides optimizing the TOE to better fit production available at given moment, the late war squads could get a discount to their price to accomodate for the older squads frozen in the pool?


I have very few infantry divisions with up-graded 43-45 squads.

Not a single division in AGA has mech/panzer or infantry divisions (18th,6th and 1st PG) has a up-graded squad in it. They are all 1939 to 1943.

Not sure what that means.

Transit pool has 25,000 and active pool 317,000.



Peltonx -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/22/2013 10:24:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical

quote:

In Pelton's example, of the 27 divisions with new style rifle squads, how many also have old style squads


Can you confirm that those 27 divisions only have new style squads? The same question for Disgruntled Veteran. Do the various divisions not getting squads only have old style squads?


The divisions have 1939 - 43 or 43-45. I found none with both.

Most are 1939-43 squads in infantry divisions and panzer divisions.



rmonical -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/22/2013 10:30:39 PM)

quote:


I find no examples of a division with both types of squads.

It does not help the games in progress, but I bet this problem could be fixed by adding a second slot in the various division types for the 43 (motorized) rifle squad.


Now - to reproduce this problem in the 44 scenario: confirm the security divisions never get any more rifle squads. I ran a couple of turns with only the security divisions on refit and it is pretty clear they are not going to get any more rifle squads and will gradually rot away. All of the other divisions have new style squads so the problem is not detectable.

[image]local://upfiles/38006/7443A2288F4B4084AC23D8F396257CAA.jpg[/image]



Peltonx -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/22/2013 10:32:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Please have a look at the items in transfer pool, AFAIR the oversize reduction items (from TOE upgrade with lower overall numbers) will be at least one turn in transfer pool. in bad weather but especially at blizzard, a lot more damaged items are sent back to pool and back to units.



Transit pool has 25,000 and active pool 317,000.




Peltonx -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/22/2013 10:38:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical

quote:


I find no examples of a division with both types of squads.

It does not help the games in progress, but I bet this problem could be fixed by adding a second slot in the various division types for the 43 (motorized) rifle squad.


Now - to reproduce this problem in the 44 scenario: confirm the security divisions never get any more rifle squads. I ran a couple of turns with only the security divisions on refit and it is pretty clear they are not going to get any more rifle squads and will gradually rot away. All of the other divisions have new style squads so the problem is not detectable.



So your saying all the divisions not converted to 43-45 rifle squads will simply rot away after 44?

Is that the cause of the major quick crash we are seeing starting in Jan 44?



rmonical -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/22/2013 11:18:19 PM)

quote:

Is that the cause of the major quick crash we are seeing starting in Jan 44?


I think so. I think this must be a recently introduced issue (probably a bug). I do not recall a problem with squad types changing a year ago.



Peltonx -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/22/2013 11:34:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical

quote:

Is that the cause of the major quick crash we are seeing starting in Jan 44?


I think so. I think this must be a recently introduced issue (probably a bug). I do not recall a problem with squad types changing a year ago.


My guess is there are 3 issues, but the big one being the Jan 44 one.

DV and A-game have alrdy proven that the mech/panzer squads are dead in the water by turning refit off to everything an the mech divisions still get zero replasements.

I see if I can figure out if all the 1939-43 divisions are now getting zero replasments.



Denniss -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/22/2013 11:44:32 PM)

For a mod I did some long runs in August/September 2012 and noticed this behaviour. I pinged Jim about the Pz and PzG divs not getting their PzG squads updated and he added an upgrade path in one of the newer versions (can't find where but I assume during the roduction review).

I still have the saves of this test, even after some turns with 1.07.06 and all on refit I very rarely see PzG, mot inf, rifle or pioneer squads upgraded/swapped.



Disgruntled Veteran -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/22/2013 11:55:48 PM)

Just a quick chime in here. I can get motorized rifle squads built but I have to set all infantry to 50 and turn them off refit and mech to 100 with refit on. I ran a test with A-Game and I was able to get 180 motor squads built in my test but everything else went horrible. I fielded about 50k men in that test. All in all I don't know if this swap problem is the problem. I believe if I had 4-5 turns without combat I could rebuild much of my army. The main problem I am seeing is the horrible losses from combat. Perhaps the Blizzard conditions are exacerbating this problem. I'm doing a turn tonight so maybe tomorrow I will have more feedback.



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