RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (Full Version)

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Michael T -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/24/2013 12:42:43 PM)

Well respectfully, what is he saying?



terje439 -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/24/2013 1:19:16 PM)

Just to answer a few of the Qs asked about my game referred to here;

1. Yes, it shows GERMAN numbers only.
2. TOE on infantry was at 100%.
3. Some 50-60% of my units were however FAR away from the railheads at the time Pelton is posting to.
4. All "guns"-based units had a TOE setting of 50%.

In the end, the strongest infantry units I had was Fins followed by...Rumanians...

Unfortunately I do not have any of the save files apart from the endgame save.


Terje



Peltonx -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/24/2013 1:26:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439

Just to answer a few of the Qs asked about my game referred to here;

1. Yes, it shows GERMAN numbers only.
2. TOE on infantry was at 75% with a few units on 100%.
3. Some 50-60% of my units were however FAR away from the railheads at the time Pelton is posting to.
4. All "guns"-based units had a TOE setting of 50%.

However the strange thing is that even those units sitting on a rail line in static mode never really managed to reach 75% TOE or anywhere near it.
In the end, the strongest infantry units I had was Fins followed by...Rumanians...

Unfortunately I do not have any of the save files apart from the endgame save.


Terje


I sent you a PM, send the file to the email address ask him to P look at it.

Your game is the most interesting of them all as you were able to win just as bug was hitting.

The bug was clearly growing in your game, but your were able to out play the SHC, I beleive because he was building wrong units as some others have in the past.

The 1 file is all we need to comferm the issue was in your game also.

Thanks for your help!!!



Peltonx -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/24/2013 1:34:32 PM)

Anyone esle that has a post 43 file ( PBeM game) PM me or better yet rmonical, Denniss, morvael.

They can look at it and work with JB, pavel and others. You can pm JB/Pavel but they have there hands full with other project ect. 2by3 will have to look at server games.

The more info at hand the better to figure out best fix or whatever.

I am a moron so me looking at files is not going to help. Those guys all have the skills needed to find/fix bug balance issues ect ect.



Manstein63 -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/24/2013 2:27:34 PM)

Is this issue only affecting the Germans or are there problems with late war Russian upgrades as well?
Manstein63



Joel Billings -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/24/2013 4:14:00 PM)

Jim and Pavel have agreed on a plan to reestablish upgrade links for some of the German infantry type elements that don't have them now. They will both be added into the data, and into the code so that it impacts existing games as well. My guess is this will make it out to as a public beta early next week. See Pavel's posts in the bug report thread.

In the WitW system there is a method in place by which old equipment in the pool is "upgraded" to newer equipment more directly.



morvael -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/24/2013 4:25:33 PM)

WitW way is better, but I think this fix will be enough for WitE. Please consider fixing Axis minors in the same way as the Germans. They are smaller and the front doesn't depend on them, but why let the issue remain partially. If not in the code to fix ongoing games then at least in generic data for new games.



Michael T -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/24/2013 6:20:11 PM)

Great, thanks guys. [:)]



Peltonx -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/25/2013 1:04:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

WitW way is better, but I think this fix will be enough for WitE. Please consider fixing Axis minors in the same way as the Germans. They are smaller and the front doesn't depend on them, but why let the issue remain partially. If not in the code to fix ongoing games then at least in generic data for new games.


yes this is also an issue I pointed out a while back as minors are not acting as the use to.




Peltonx -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/25/2013 10:45:37 AM)

Any game, server based or PBeM that is past Jan 43 send your info to Joel Billings as soon as possible.



Joel Billings -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/25/2013 4:50:22 PM)

If you have a campaign game that is into 1943 or 44 and you are seeing an issue with German lack of armaments and manpower building up in the pool, please send to 2by3@2by3games.com. Best to send a couple of saves, one when the issue starts appearing, and one later on so we can see the progression. Also, let us know if you've dibanded many HQs or airbases, and if so, about how many you disbanded.

Pelton sent me names of several server games but I was not able to find them on the server. If you have a server game you think I should look at, email me the names of the opponents (the Server login names).

I do not know if there is a problem here or not, I'm only trying to react to some chatter that there is an issue but need to see some examples. If you have a game into 43-44 where this is not an issue, it would help to hear from you as well. It's true that there aren't many games that get to 1943-44 given the time it takes to play the game, so we're working with a small sample size.



rmonical -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/25/2013 6:03:57 PM)

quote:

I do not know if there is a problem here or not, I'm only trying to react to some chatter that there is an issue but need to see some examples. If you have a game into 43-44 where this is not an issue, it would help to hear from you as well. It's true that there aren't many games that get to 1943-44 given the time it takes to play the game, so we're working with a small sample size.


From my preliminary look using Pelton's files, if there is an issue, it is subtle. A slight bias toward overproducing guns and underproducing rifle squads in 1943. The effect is that by late '43, many divisions have much lower rifle squad TOE% than gun TOE%. I was going to look at this some more this weekend and pull some better stats by laboriously copying the production data from the screen into the spreadsheet. Looks like rifle squads produced in 1943 was roughly 16-17,000. Pelton disbanded a bunch of HQ and airbases. See this thread for a little more detail.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3312620



Peltonx -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/25/2013 9:11:24 PM)

The bigger issue is you have armaments the manpower pool is growing and GHC OOB is crashing.



Peltonx -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/25/2013 9:13:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical

quote:

I do not know if there is a problem here or not, I'm only trying to react to some chatter that there is an issue but need to see some examples. If you have a game into 43-44 where this is not an issue, it would help to hear from you as well. It's true that there aren't many games that get to 1943-44 given the time it takes to play the game, so we're working with a small sample size.


From my preliminary look using Pelton's files, if there is an issue, it is subtle. A slight bias toward overproducing guns and underproducing rifle squads in 1943. The effect is that by late '43, many divisions have much lower rifle squad TOE% than gun TOE%. I was going to look at this some more this weekend and pull some better stats by laboriously copying the production data from the screen into the spreadsheet. Looks like rifle squads produced in 1943 was roughly 16-17,000. Pelton disbanded a bunch of HQ and airbases. See this thread for a little more detail.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3312620



Have you looked at smokendave34's games and DV vs Agames issues.

There issues are much worse then mine as they did not disband HQ's.

The issue is a lack of rifle squads which is most of a units CV. A way to counter the bug is to make sure you have allot of extra support squads.

Also 30 extra support squads per turn convert to rifle squads.

Thats why their OOB is crashing sooner then mine and I was able to stay at 3.5 million longer.

The dropping CV of units starts in 43, which is a designed collaspe of GHC CV which has nothing to do with combat.

So GHC loses allot of battles/equipment/arm pts/morale and SHC doesn't waste as much ect ect so by 1st quarter of 44 GHC OOB has crashed from 3.2 million to 2.4 million in just a few months, most of the men are in the manpower pool.

The effect is the bug basicly collasped GHC OOB and not combat.

The unit CV is 1 or 2 because they only have 20% squad strength, this squad strength should be 70%+

My game vs Hugh is best case clearly not worse as I knew some sht was up and has been for a while as helpless pointed out


quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

quote:

Or he has an updated data set that's not yet released for WitE.


Well, it is other way around. I have too old files. Apparently Jim removed the upgrade in order to slowdown the conversion. So there is no disconnects between code and data, as it really slows it down :)


The "slowdown" back fired and stopped conversions.

I am guessing this was not tested after Jim removed the ungrade to see if it was working as intended.

Simply put back whatever he removed, yes the current mid 43 + games are screwed but atleast the other games can move forward and we can restart ours or go back to Jan 1st 43 if PBeM.

my 2 cents.



Denniss -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/25/2013 9:17:07 PM)

Attached is a Axis savegame from 10/44 I found on our FTP, it's from a 1.06.22 AI vs AI testgame. IT shows a hell lot of german divs and other units severely understrenght because most of their squads are gone and, being of the old type, can't be replenished. Many of these units, that have obviously seen heavy fighting, are still on the 37+50mm AT-gun setup despite having a TOE calling for 50+75mm AT-guns. These AT-guns are nearly wiped out as they are out of production as well. Germany with a million manpower and 1.6 million armament points in pool, both would probably been almost drained with properly working equipment upgrades/swaps

Loss table show enormous losses of armored cars, while this may be ok for the soviets this is in no way ok for at least Germany. I can't remember to have seen them to be used for offensive recon mission under heavy enemy fire - they were used very cautious. Save also shows the error with the light armored car setup for the 221 recon - all units are calling for armored cars but 100 of the 221 are in pool but only used by a single mot brigade (usually all 221 get scrapped in 1942 despite production run into 43 with the 223 Funk (radio) variant)
All soviet BA-20 armored cars are gone by this date (some usually survive 1943 but not many, by far not enough to fill the unit needs, thousands of BA-64 in pool).

In this save Soviets are out of manpower with just 300k armaments left. Even the Soviets can't feed all the stuff the AI tends to build - many rifle corps below 50% TOE.



Peltonx -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/25/2013 9:26:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Attached is a Axis savegame from 10/44 I found on our FTP, it's from a 1.06.22 AI vs AI testgame. IT shows a hell lot of german divs and other units severely understrenght because most of their squads are gone and, being of the old type, can't be replenished. Many of these units, that have obviously seen heavy fighting, are still on the 37+50mm AT-gun setup despite having a TOE calling for 50+75mm AT-guns. These AT-guns are nearly wiped out as they are out of production as well. Germany with a million manpower and 1.6 million armament points in pool, both would probably been almost drained with properly working equipment upgrades/swaps

Loss table show enormous losses of armored cars, while this may be ok for the soviets this is in no way ok for at least Germany. I can't remember to have seen them to be used for offensive recon mission under heavy enemy fire - they were used very cautious. Save also shows the error with the light armored car setup for the 221 recon - all units are calling for armored cars but 100 of the 221 are in pool but only used by a single mot brigade (usually all 221 get scrapped in 1942 despite production run into 43 with the 223 Funk (radio) variant)
All soviet BA-20 armored cars are gone by this date (some usually survive 1943 but not many, by far not enough to fill the unit needs, thousands of BA-64 in pool).

In this save Soviets are out of manpower with just 300k armaments left. Even the Soviets can't feed all the stuff the AI tends to build - many rifle corps below 50% TOE.


Turn the switch back on?

As I have posted and been stating armament points is not the issue, great find Denniss.

The 3 amigos strike again



SigUp -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/25/2013 10:48:11 PM)

Wow, just took a look at Denniss save and it does look strange. After a quick look I already found a couple of infantry divisions with exactly 1 (!) Rifle Squad. Numerous others have below 10% of the TOE numbers for Rifle Squads while artillery and else are at 80% or so.



Peltonx -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/25/2013 11:38:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SigUp

Wow, just took a look at Denniss save and it does look strange. After a quick look I already found a couple of infantry divisions with exactly 1 (!) Rifle Squad. Numerous others have below 10% of the TOE numbers for Rifle Squads while artillery and else are at 80% or so.


Yes any game past Jan 43 is effected, its a slow growing cancer that kills the patient in 12 to 15 months. As we know many GHC players think I have a draw for sure in Nov 43 then by Feb 44 its a complete disaster and thay are going wth just freaking happened? They had no idea they only had 6 months to live on July 1st 43

The game is effected a little, then a little more each passing turn. You simply can't just look at the squads , but have to remember that the GHC CV is going down in some units Jan 43 and the more and more with each passing turn.

The fix as I understand it so far from info " on these threads" ( there might be something I am mising) will turn things back around, but this will not repair the damage from battles and land that never should have been lost and morale ect ect gains by SHC. It will slowly kill off the cancer. If GHC is not under much pressure it will recover quickly and if GHC is under allot of pressure or lines have broken it will never heal fully.

So game's after Mid 43 are greatly effectived, its probably to late as the SHC has gained and unfair advantage that will not be recovered from.

Its just hard to tell with out some one putting in 100's of hours, OHH crap that was a waste of time or wow it worked fine. Its up to each GHC player to deside for themselfs and each 43+ game will be different. Some that look fine are to sick and others that look screwed might recover. Very complex for sure.




rmonical -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/25/2013 11:42:47 PM)

quote:

Wow, just took a look at Denniss save and it does look strange. After a quick look I already found a couple of infantry divisions with exactly 1 (!) Rifle Squad. Numerous others have below 10% of the TOE numbers for Rifle Squads while artillery and else are at 80% or so.


Thanks Denniss,

We know the (motorized) rifle squad problem was caused by the very restrictive swap criteria. Restoring the upgrade path probably fixes that. The AT gun problem is more intractable because the types co-exist in the same division. Looking at one of those 1 squad/2 AT gun divisions, the 111th. My guess is the AT gun situation is due to swap logic not firing for the '43 Infantry divisions because there were never enough 75 MM guns in the active pool to swap out for the remaining 37 MM in many units. There are 151 units equipped with 480 37 MM AT guns. I looked at a handful, non of them had received the 75 MM guns.

The active pool currently has 10 75 MM guns. There are many units with a single 37 MM gun. I suspect there is a threshold that prevents the swap rule from firing.

Unless this entire subsystem has been reworked for WITW (Joel implied that it might be), the restrictive swap rules will be a problem there as well.

Off hand, I cannot think of a decent workaround. At the scenario design level, put 4000 75 MM guns in the pool and that will be enough to trigger the swap rules when the TOE allows. Players need to understand the other requirements for swap to occur and make sure they put their units in position where they are eligible to swap.



[image]local://upfiles/38006/4C2E3728670F489890C5DA46454C5BF8.jpg[/image]



Peltonx -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/25/2013 11:48:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical

quote:

Wow, just took a look at Denniss save and it does look strange. After a quick look I already found a couple of infantry divisions with exactly 1 (!) Rifle Squad. Numerous others have below 10% of the TOE numbers for Rifle Squads while artillery and else are at 80% or so.


Thanks Denniss,

We know the (motorized) rifle squad problem was caused by the very restrictive swap criteria. Restoring the upgrade path probably fixes that. The AT gun problem is more intractable because the types co-exist in the same division. Looking at one of those 1 squad/2 AT gun divisions, the 111th. My guess is the AT gun situation is due to swap logic not firing for the '43 Infantry divisions because there were never enough 75 MM guns in the active pool to swap out for the remaining 37 MM in many units. There are 151 units equipped with 480 37 MM AT guns. I looked at a handful, non of them had received the 75 MM guns.

The active pool currently has 10 75 MM guns. There are many units with a single 37 MM gun. I suspect there is a threshold that prevents the swap rule from firing.

Unless this entire subsystem has been reworked for WITW (Joel implied that it might be), the restrictive swap rules will be a problem there as well.

Off hand, I cannot think of a decent workaround. At the scenario design level, put 4000 75 MM guns in the pool and that will be enough to trigger the swap rules when the TOE allows. Players need to understand the other requirements for swap to occur and make sure they put their units in position where they are eligible to swap.




Great find also.

Its hard enough to play GHC as it is with out having to spend 90% of you time tring to figure out how not to get cancer while tring to kia SHC. Not fun

It should be smooth to play for both sides.

So from what I am hearing now this issue starts before Jan 43 depending on conversion and swap dates ext?

The conversion with 37mm to 75mm starts Jan 42. This would not surpise me as Flaviusx posted several times about how slow GHC replasements were working in 41/42 blizzard and 42/43 blizzard. Not sure if that was same issuee he was talking about and this one, but kinda looks that way.



rmonical -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/26/2013 12:30:36 AM)

I believe the swap logic fires after all other replacement logic. So we may have a situation where units which are eligible to swap to the 75 MM gun receive 37 MM guns from the transit pool making it harder for the swap logic to fire with whatever 75 MM guns are in the active pool. Indeed, it may be that units that have received a replacement 37 MM gun may be ineligible for swap by rule.

It looks like the 68 units with 1168 75 MM guns are close to TOE on those v(average is just over 17). TOE ranges from 6-21.

Production is driven by need. I suspect the 158 units with 1-3 37 MM guns sitting in the 75 MM gun slot mean the system does not identify the need for more 75 MM guns. The need is only identified after the swap.

I continue to not see a problem with supporting a swap directly from just in time production.



Denniss -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/26/2013 1:20:30 AM)

Yep, swap phase fires after refit and normal replacement, upgrades happen earlier. At least according to the display during the logistic phase.



rmonical -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/26/2013 1:35:49 AM)

quote:

The conversion with 37mm to 75mm starts Jan 42.


The 75 MM is available but the big conversion requirement starts with the '43 infantry division



Disgruntled Veteran -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/26/2013 2:11:22 AM)

I just got home and sent in some of my saves to the listed email address. If anyone else wants to look at them just send me an email and I'll send you any saves you want.



rmonical -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/26/2013 2:51:19 AM)

A couple more points:
1. Don't forget the pioneer squads which also overlap instead of upgrade.
2. It appears that AT guns and mortars do fine with multiple slots in the TOE. I tried it with old and new style infantry squads in the '44 Infantry division and 44-45 scenario and had no joy. Maybe I should have put quantity 1 in the old style squad instead of 0. Just a thought for a scenario oriented fix. I'll play around some more this weekend.



morvael -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/26/2013 7:38:52 AM)

I thought that units do not switch to new elements if both of these are true: TOE does not use newer elements and current element has no upgrade. From your observations I see that units do not switch if just one of the conditions is true. If that is so, any juggling with upgrade paths and TOEs will not help the game, as would a code change (more aggressive swap of obsolete elements to available elements of the same class - with or without upgrade path, perhaps before even refit replacements in the logistics phase, and also including obsolete elements in production need of available elements of the same class - with or without upgrade paths; ability to scrap obsolete squad type elements to save arms would be just icing on the cake).



smokindave34 -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/27/2013 1:54:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

If you have a campaign game that is into 1943 or 44 and you are seeing an issue with German lack of armaments and manpower building up in the pool, please send to 2by3@2by3games.com. Best to send a couple of saves, one when the issue starts appearing, and one later on so we can see the progression. Also, let us know if you've dibanded many HQs or airbases, and if so, about how many you disbanded.

Pelton sent me names of several server games but I was not able to find them on the server. If you have a server game you think I should look at, email me the names of the opponents (the Server login names).

I do not know if there is a problem here or not, I'm only trying to react to some chatter that there is an issue but need to see some examples. If you have a game into 43-44 where this is not an issue, it would help to hear from you as well. It's true that there aren't many games that get to 1943-44 given the time it takes to play the game, so we're working with a small sample size.


Joel,

I sent two of my save game files to you via email. What I've seen is that in January '43 I had 112K armaments and 20K men in the German pool and now in December '43 I have 0 armaments points and 407K men in my German pool. I have not disbanded any HQ or airbases.

I also have a completed campaign game versus Von Beanie out on the server. I cannot access it anymore since it is not my turn - maybe you can? That may help as well. Thanks for the support.




Peltonx -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/27/2013 2:57:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: smokindave34


Joel,

I sent two of my save game files to you via email. What I've seen is that in January '43 I had 112K armaments and 20K men in the German pool and now in December '43 I have 0 armaments points and 407K men in my German pool. I have not disbanded any HQ or airbases.

I also have a completed campaign game versus Von Beanie out on the server. I cannot access it anymore since it is not my turn - maybe you can? That may help as well. Thanks for the support.




The other things to look at is old and new squads and then a few divisions to see what squad % is as you have done in a few other of your games alrdy. All the 11/42+ games look to all be declining the same way.

basicly same issue as 3 amogis have out lined in detail and I have at the big picture lvl.

Same as in all post 11/42 games.

rifle,mech, poineers squads are not converting and a few other items as they should be. So your CV's were lowered not because of combat but because of WAD. Most of CV values is based on rifle squads and if squads are not converting CV drops because there are very few if any new replasments for front line units.

Thats why when you withdraw units(10+ hexes at railhead and with HQ) they still get almost no replasments, the system sees no need to build them so doesn't. It builds guns which sucked up your arm pts. Guns add nothing to CV and as we know 75% of loses are caused by retreats. Thats why last yr I thought this was a armament bug, but as 3 amigos clearly pointed out in tech forums its a conversion issue. The rate was tweaked down more as helpless stated in the thread which almost stopped conversions.

SO in your game and the other mid 43 + games

1. divisional CV would never have dropped because of no conversions and no rifle squads being built
2. armament pool would not have gone from positive to 0 as fast.
3. morale/equipment/ land would not have been lost as quickly or so easly

Lines would be slowly being pushed west and not simply disappear because of uber slow conversion rates

This issue has a huge snowball effect.

Even if it remains a WAD issue there appear's to be work arounds for players, but has to be started in 11/42 and not be easy to get right if it works.

Any game past 11/42 even if paths are restored before they were tweaked back is damaged because of WAD it would appear as per tech forums on going debate.

GHC started losing CV then the snowball effect crippled the army between 11/43 to 3/44 depending on player vs player results. The crashing CV was because of WAD to start with no converting rifle ect units.



BrianG -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (4/29/2013 1:36:37 AM)

Just for the sack of geting this out.

In my german game at turn 155 June 1, 1944. I am on big retreat and the Russians just crossed the oder. Rumania is gone, hungarian mountains just pierced. Konisberg bottled up to 2 5 hexes and Finland still fights(although mostly sitting on the arse)

Turn 155 produced the following (larger than normal) results.

German Killed 176.646
guns 4,023
afv 599
airframes 449

Russian killed 227,295
guns 2,645
afv 1,575
airframes 2,089

ANyhow to add to this armements 'bug'

I have 125 German Inf Divisions. 72 have the 39-43 Rifle Div. 89 Have the 43 - 45 rifle division. ABout 15 to 20 have only the 39-45 leaving about 20 to 25 with both. If the divison only had the 39 - 43 rifle it had very few teams.

If both had thm, the 39- 43 teams rifle wrer small. The 43- 45 teams had good size, many over 200. Thus some of my troops have not converted and we are 5 full months into 1944. Not sure if it means anything but there ya have it.



smokindave34 -> RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. (5/1/2013 9:24:16 PM)

Any updates on this issue.....I'm in January '44 and my pool continues to go up by 7,000 men each turn. By January '45 (if I make it that long) I'll have close to three quarters of a million men in the pool. I enjoy playing into '44/45 as the axis - most games don't make it past '42 and this issue is not going to help the cause of axis players determined to play on to the end.



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