RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken.

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (Full Version)

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Peltonx -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/11/2013 7:41:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: elmo3 Please stay on topic. Joel is not going to wade through all this superfluous discussion to see if there is a consensus on the problem and any reasonably easy fixes. We did that about 2 days ago. Most people are doing 110 GHC to 100 SHC ML or 105 GHC to 95 SHC. Personally I like the 105 to 95. Simply way to easy for SHC to do far better then historical vs everyone other then a handful of people.

SigUp -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/11/2013 7:44:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Pelton quote: ORIGINAL: mktours in fact, the Germans stood no chance to win the war in history, Hitler just shouldn't start it. both Guderian and Manstein admitted this after the war. That's completely an opinion. Germany would have easly won a 1 front war. Based on a few simple facts. Populations: German 86 million not even counting minor allies. Russia 176 million Combat ratio 3.5 to 1. Germany was easly winning the war of attrition. Russia could not build enough trucks to keep logistics above 70%, they had to have western allies help. Germany had several million combat troops doing nothing in the west. Germany could have easly "won" the war if Hitler had commited 1 million more men to the east in 41. This fact alone makes The War in Europe problematic. A sandbox WiE would be an easy German win, they will have to find some way to keep GHC players from going all in on the Eastern Front in 41 And where would the equipment for this huge army come from? The Germans squeezed their economy, putting some long-term capacity enlargements on hold, to just equip the 3 million men that stood at the border on 22nd June 1941. Of course more could have been achieved through efficient structues and more power to the industry itself. But that would be creating a fantasy scenario, like somebody saying if Stalin had listened to Tuchachevsky, the Germans would have been steamrolled.

Aurelian -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/11/2013 7:46:40 PM)
After wading through this, especially the debunked "millions of soldiers in the west" nonsense, IMHO, leave morale alone. Change it, and you're still going to get the same complaints down the road.

Peltonx -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/11/2013 9:31:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aurelian After wading through this, especially the debunked "millions of soldiers in the west" nonsense, IMHO, leave morale alone. Change it, and you're still going to get the same complaints down the road. lol so many people still on the Stalin band wagon, old fairytale die hard. German army June 1941 5.0 million Eastern Front 3 million. In the West there were 800,000 active duty and 1.2 million reserve. The reserves duty men were called up during the following 12 months to active duty. Close to 60% were not called up to front line units, but still that's another 500,000 men for combat. So basicly Germany had another 800,000 men that could have been used on eastern front in June 41. Thats easly 2 or 3 full Armies plus support units.Also sun shine Germany was still a peace time economy, Germany did not gear up until 1943 for War. LW 1.6 million Navy 400,000 SS 150,000 If Hitler had gone from a peace time to war time economy in 1940 instead of 1943 and moved the 1.2 million reservist to active duty Russia would have been toast in 1941. The plain facts are Germany 86 million USSR 170 million Combat ratio 3.5 to 1 Germany was winning the war of attrition. Germany had several million active duty personal not on the Russian front in 1942, again Hilter made the same mistake in 1941 as 1942 by not going all in on the Eastern Front.

loki100 -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/11/2013 9:52:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: morvael More on topic: higher than "real" morale has to be accepted for the Soviet side, because it's the counters and their CV that stop Germans, not logistics. That has it downsides, but you can't fix one thing properly while the rest remains broken. The morale must improve at the moment when German advance stalled due to logistical reasons and again it must fall down when they did their Fall Blau. And since there is some delay before NM "filters down" to unit level, this must be done in advance. Something should also be done about the positive feedback loop, where winner gets stronger all the time and defender weaker. Fast morale regain to NM level is one of such measures. to try and keep this on topic ... the Germans outmanouvered the Red Army across most of 1941 and 1942 quite simply due to better command structures. Koniev's memoires are instructive, he mentions several times that the Germans were simply quicker and that by the time the 1941 style Soviet structures responded, they were already in an encirclement. One of the main things that balanced this out was logistics. Now in a way ahistorically high Soviet morale is a way of bringing back in that logistic context. If we are looking for a simple way to create the space for the operational tempo advantage that the Germans had in the first summmer then try: a) make the range for the regain morale more than 10 hexes, something around 20 would make it a real decision for the Soviet player as those units would not be usefully creating a final defense line around Moscow while improving their NM. Would start to look like the dilemna that faced Stavka during Typhoon when they starved the front line armies of replacements and reinforcements in order to build up a critical mass for the counter-offensive; b) given the Germans a MP boost for say June-July (although I suspect, added to all the other turn 1 exploits, this would be too much) c) nick an idea from HOI2. Those who played that may recall there was a mechanism to reduce Soviet defensive competence (to reflect command chaos) for a period (usually till end August). More elegant would be to reduce the command range for Soviet HQs in that period. That, plus the loss of the Corps, would mean more Soviet units were out of command range. Note for Pelton - not everyone who has the temerity to disagree with you, is a fan of Stalin.

Michael T -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/11/2013 10:08:27 PM)
Joel should apply some kind of filter to screen himself from the lunatic fringe. Upon request I will provide him with a list [:D]

SigUp -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/11/2013 10:11:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Pelton quote: ORIGINAL: Aurelian After wading through this, especially the debunked "millions of soldiers in the west" nonsense, IMHO, leave morale alone. Change it, and you're still going to get the same complaints down the road. lol so many people still on the Stalin band wagon, old fairytale die hard. German army June 1941 5.0 million Eastern Front 3 million. In the West there were 800,000 active duty and 1.2 million reserve. The reserves duty men were called up during the following 12 months to active duty. Close to 60% were not called up to front line units, but still that's another 500,000 men for combat. So basicly Germany had another 800,000 men that could have been used on eastern front in June 41. Thats easly 2 or 3 full Armies plus support units.Also sun shine Germany was still a peace time economy, Germany did not gear up until 1943 for War. LW 1.6 million Navy 400,000 SS 150,000 If Hitler had gone from a peace time to war time economy in 1940 instead of 1943 and moved the 1.2 million reservist to active duty Russia would have been toast in 1941. As I stated before, Germany didn't have enough equipment to properly equip those divisions. In June 1941 the Germans possessed 129 divisions they categorized as fit for all dutys, all of them were lined up across the Soviet border. As for the economy part, Germany couldn't have gone to a fully mobilized wartime economy by 1940. Stating this is fully neglecting the character of the Nazi regime. The economic decision making process (or better said decision making process in general) was inherently inefficient in that system with all kinds of institutions hindering themselves and Hitler reluctant to make definite decisions that could anger parts of his supporters. The complexity of German road to wartime economy is too complicated to be described in a single post. But it took two major crisis to pave the way. The "ammunition crisis" of Winter 1939/40 to create the Ministry of Armaments under Todt and then the failure before Moscow with the prospects of economic collapse to convince Hitler to give control of the war economy to Todt (then Speer after Todt died the day after securing Hitler's decision). Saying Germany could have went into war economy by 1940 is a fantasy like somebody saying the Soviets could have steamrolled through Europe if Stalin had kept Tuchachevsky and his ideas alive.

Disgruntled Veteran -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/11/2013 10:34:38 PM)
I think the best the Germans could have hoped for is an armed stalemate where the Red machine was simply bled out and unable to launch repeated offensives. Maybe the line would have settled somewhere near the original war start line. Had the American industry not provided so many goods of all types (trucks as a big one) than this sort of stalemate should have been theoretically possible. Without the increased mobility deeper soviet penetrations would have been less frequent. I doubt Germany could have ever defeated the USSR. No state has ever endured so many catastrophic military blunders and still survived. The Germans did very well and were a top rate force but they just didn't have enough. Anyway..my opinion in a useless argument. Back to topic. I have refrained from vocalizing an opinion about morale because in both of my games I have seen the war go fairly well for me. (Well meaning that I wasn't annihilated during blizzard and moved faster than historical). I think if the Blizzard wasn't so damned horrible for the Germans the current morale tables would be acceptable. A good Soviet player could stop a lackluster German drive. Sometimes I just imagine what would have happened if Stalin had abandoned Kiev and pulled SW Front behind the Dnepr in Aug-Sep 41. Its very likely the war would have ended a year or more sooner. So far I like the idea of NM = 45 and 20+ hexes in order to refit. However I am a Germophile and still only in my 2nd mp game.

SigUp -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/11/2013 11:14:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Disgruntled Veteran I think the best the Germans could have hoped for is an armed stalemate where the Red machine was simply bled out and unable to launch repeated offensives. Maybe the line would have settled somewhere near the original war start line. Had the American industry not provided so many goods of all types (trucks as a big one) than this sort of stalemate should have been theoretically possible. Without the increased mobility deeper soviet penetrations would have been less frequent. I doubt Germany could have ever defeated the USSR. No state has ever endured so many catastrophic military blunders and still survived. The Germans did very well and were a top rate force but they just didn't have enough. Anyway..my opinion in a useless argument. Back to topic. I have refrained from vocalizing an opinion about morale because in both of my games I have seen the war go fairly well for me. (Well meaning that I wasn't annihilated during blizzard and moved faster than historical). I think if the Blizzard wasn't so damned horrible for the Germans the current morale tables would be acceptable. A good Soviet player could stop a lackluster German drive. Sometimes I just imagine what would have happened if Stalin had abandoned Kiev and pulled SW Front behind the Dnepr in Aug-Sep 41. Its very likely the war would have ended a year or more sooner. So far I like the idea of NM = 45 and 20+ hexes in order to refit. However I am a Germophile and still only in my 2nd mp game. By all means the war should have ended in 1944 nevertheless. But conservative Soviet planning meant that even though Bagration was a spectacular success, the Germans were able to build up a new line at the Vistula and hold it till January 1945. As for the main discussion, I think all in all getting morale increases above NM should be much harder. I just noticed 78th Infantry Division back in East Prussia has experienced a bump of morale from 97 to 99 from turn 24 to 25. Then the distance should be increased. As has been stated before 10 hexes for the Soviets basically can serve as a reserve defensive line.

Flaviusx -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/12/2013 12:34:00 AM)
quote: No state has ever endured so many catastrophic military blunders and still survived. Rome, 2nd Punic War. But both these cases are very exceptional.

Peltonx -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/12/2013 11:32:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SigUp As for the main discussion, I think all in all getting morale increases above NM should be much harder. I just noticed 78th Infantry Division back in East Prussia has experienced a bump of morale from 97 to 99 from turn 24 to 25. Then the distance should be increased. As has been stated before 10 hexes for the Soviets basically can serve as a reserve defensive line. So super star what your saying is NM is really STILL BROKEN? Morale should NOT be increasing above 50 10 hexes from the front or 75 if in supply. It should only increase to 50 10 hexes from the front. And here we go testing this out.

Peltonx -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/12/2013 12:38:44 PM)
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3364022

Denniss -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/12/2013 12:51:51 PM)
Another example of the borked soviet morale: the two soviet garrisons and one infantry brigade between Helsinki and Turku. They start with 40 morale and at turn 4 they are already at ~53, one turn later after two defensive wins they are at 57, 58 and 60. Detailed, Bde-fort-fort: T2: 46-53(!)-46 T3: 47-53-53(!) T3: 52-53-53 T4: 52-53-53 I have no idea why the one fort received this 13pt boost in T2 - maybe combination of below 50 morale + below NM + in good supply? Without a boost for the Axis AI it's usually not able to break these Bde+Forts. I have seen it trying for some turn then starting to ignore them, leaving the Bde free hand to move in Finland, eventually leading to early Fin surrender.

mktours -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/12/2013 1:50:21 PM)
on the topic: my suggestion is keeping the soviet morale but making the evacuation of industry more costly, that would force the red army to fight forward. in my PBEM game as the Russian side, my beginner opponent made many mistakes but he is till able to capture Kiev and cross the river( i defended it in full force) well before the history date, while i have a lot of rail capacity left(i don't need to evacuate a lot of industry). the red army is still too weak if fight forward.

Ron -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/12/2013 4:10:56 PM)
It seems again some are intent on obfuscating the orignal issue and mixing up historical versus game, so much so I doubt the designers are willing to do anything with such schizophrenic responses. It's no wonder this game has such muddled design ideas. No question currently the Russians in '41 are overpowered, and omitting the reasons why for now, I have read suggestions of increasing the Germans morale to 110 or Germans to 105 and Russians to 95 for more balanced H-H play. I tried a few turns against the German AI at 120 but the Russian opposition still seems a little too strong, so I am leaning towards the 105/95 settings for a new H-H match. I am wondering if anyone else has tried these settings or has any feedback?

janh -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/12/2013 6:17:00 PM)
Ron, the Soviets are not overpowered at this point, nor is the op-tempo usually too slow, but the way the game allows the Soviet player to use his forces can create a lot of trouble for the Axis. Naturally, if a Soviet player ignores the South after a Lvov (or because he knows he will win the war there) sends all reinforcement and the good-quality survivors to the gate of LG, or Moscow, essentially focusing everything on only 2 AG's, this must have consequences. This raises the question on whether Axis should actually reinforce AGS, or better to the opposite, though. The Axis window of opportunity is kind of small, and two or three turns delay may seriously derail Barbarossa unless the Soviet player fails to make use of that, or gets poor dice rolls. Axis, though it can improve on historic performance (e.g. because it today knows the opponent much better as well as his reinforcement and production capabilities, knowing when and where to strike), it seems apparent that the potential that the Soviet player can squeeze out of game with hindsight is bigger. Yet the Soviets could and should fight forward much better with this patch now. A couple of months would be required now to let things settle and both sides adapt to the new standard with fixed morale rules. If it proves to be devastating and Axis get stuck before Smolensk and Kiev too often, more often then LG or Moscow fall, then there shouldn't be any more need for discussion agree on reducing to 45 or so. Nonetheless I think for one setting the threshold of the rear area "benefits" to >> 10 is quite sensible. The morale issue might better wait a few months to conclude on that. The catch remains that it now puts other parameters (fort building, rear area range, reserve reaction tables, routing losses as fct. of morale etc.) into question as well as the game's freedom with chose when and where to fight with what. Since no quick or complex change is going to happen, there could be simple house-rules: - Either adjust moral difficulty settings at player's desire, but allow Soviet and Axis to transfer large formations north and south at will or, what I consider much more sensible in the context or realism: - reducing fort building rates to ca 70% to adapt to the new morale standard (delays will not cause such quick trouble, as well as breakthrus would get easier and the situation remain more fluid), and agreeing on limits of force transfers (e.g. Soviet only move say max 4 division belonging to Southern Army fronts per turn north of the Axis minor's line unless a Lvov renders contesting AGS forward hopeless/Axis sends >=1 Panzer Corps from AGN or AGC south/or LG falls before say turn 12). If you'd even want a more realistic, slower op-tempo, top it off with what players are now doing against AI in the context of the forgiving logistics: reduce the Logistics setting to 70% for both sides. If anything, more than "breaking" the fixed morale mechanics again, the blizzard now needs toning down so Axis can survive it better. It has the single most negative effect on the Axis, more so than the fixed morale now -- yet of course only as long as you try to repeat what the Germans did, i.e. hardly give ground. However, as long as Axis is allowed to send numerous units back to Poland and winter them in towns well behind the front, enabled by disengaging and conducting a slow but safe Sir Robin, fixing blizzard won't get a major topic since all this allows the German Ostheer to remain high-morale, and high-strength for a death blow in 42 anyway. If you are all about winning but dislike the >=43 part, this is as much the route to go as not wasting your troops fighting forward of the Djenpr is for the Soviets. Worse, now only eying the morale change could keep the focus on a small part of the whole GC and game, and not the whole. It would be much better if the Axis would as much as Soviets (be able to) fight forward, and a serious Soviet blizzard offensive only develop naturally and locally with an overexposed Axis front (a matter of player's aggression and events), some winter logistic penalties (we have, just on morale and combat scaling factors are a little too much), and better Soviet troops (we can perhaps have now with the fixed morale rule). I think there isn't so much to change there except a few floats in the modifiers, and perhaps could be a doable thing to consider that would very greatly improve the game...

darbycmcd -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/12/2013 6:17:16 PM)
Why do you believe that is 'no doubt' the Soviets are too strong? I have heard it asserted by a few players, but what is missing is a clear statement of what expected outcomes for the early war are, in order to judge if the Soviets are too strong or not. The problem I have with this line of reasoning is that it is not obvious to me that the German players are failing to make historical progress in more than half the games... of course we have a very small sample of AARs, and they are mostly done by a handful of the same players, but I have the feeling that in more than half the Germans do better than historical for the Barbarossa period. So how do we KNOW there is a problem? Or how about this, lets compile data on the date when Berlin fell in campaign games. If there is a significant deviation from distribution around the historical date, there is probably a problem.

darbycmcd -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/12/2013 6:30:54 PM)
Just to be clear, I was responding to Ron. Janh, I totally agree with you. It is the main problem of any East front game, it is like trying to recreate an instance of a game in which one of the players was excellent and one sucked! So it is very hard to do better than the excellent player, but easy to do better than super suck. I really think the big problem in the game is one of the first ones noticed, supply throughput is way way too high. It allows continuous offensive operations where such were not possible. This means that the soviets can attack almost without stop along almost all the front once they transition to the offense. I suspect that this isn't a bigger complaint because lets be honest, the biggest source of complaints are things that limit the German offensive power in the Barbarossa period. Limiting supply to an historical level would impact the Germans here, so little grumbling, although it actually hurt the German player in the long run (but how many games actually get played to completion?). I mean, really the biggest "Middle Earth" (to borrow a peltonism) feature going in the game now is air supply of panzer divisions conducting week-long combat operations... but there doesn't seem to be a lot of hand-wringing over that.

Walloc -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/12/2013 8:25:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Denniss Another example of the borked soviet morale: the two soviet garrisons and one infantry brigade between Helsinki and Turku. They start with 40 morale and at turn 4 they are already at ~53, one turn later after two defensive wins they are at 57, 58 and 60. Detailed, Bde-fort-fort: T2: 46-53(!)-46 T3: 47-53-53(!) T3: 52-53-53 T4: 52-53-53 I have no idea why the one fort received this 13pt boost in T2 - maybe combination of below 50 morale + below NM + in good supply? Without a boost for the Axis AI it's usually not able to break these Bde+Forts. I have seen it trying for some turn then starting to ignore them, leaving the Bde free hand to move in Finland, eventually leading to early Fin surrender. U prolly know more about the inner workings than me Dennis, but seeing ur examples my line of thinking would be. 50 Start NM, going down to presumably 49 by turn 3. They bde gets a +5 to NM so the limit could be at 54. As i read the rules Forts/garrsions sholdnt get the bonus, but ur example makes me wonder if there is a bug and they get it too. I means it wouldnt be the first time sub divisional units gets bugged. As in the case of FDB brigades movement and the sub divisional units recieving the wrong movement bonus in the surprise bonus. At leased this is some thing i would ask Joel about what is the intend and possibly test then. Now there is some thing i always wondered, but actually never checked. It states in the rules regarding to the +10 hex refit moral units units need to be 10 hexes away from enemy supplied units. Well the finns starts as frozen. Do frozen units count as enemy units or not for this purpose? If they dont u could get up too +5(4.9) from the below NM increase rule and what ever u get from the refit bonus. 13 seems more than a stretch, but the 6-7 that is given per turn seems within the possible, tho not that likely. As per post 1.07.06 rules. Odd thing is that it stops at 52/53 and not 54 tho. The moral increase for the won battles seems very unlike in the pre 1.07.06 world. Im starting to see a pattern tho. U have what seem unusally high(fast) increases in moral between turn(thats known), but more interresting is the high increase from the battles/ how fast it goes up. quote: ORIGINAL: SigUp As for the main discussion, I think all in all getting morale increases above NM should be much harder. I just noticed 78th Infantry Division back in East Prussia has experienced a bump of morale from 97 to 99 from turn 24 to 25. Then the distance should be increased. As has been stated before 10 hexes for the Soviets basically can serve as a reserve defensive line. 2 issues in this. 78th ID starts at 80 moral and is now 97. How the f.. do u get up to 97 in 24 turns. Sure u could pre 1.07.06 get higher than NM in moral from wins, but getting to 97 from 80 was damn near impossible less it was a SS unit, starting at higher moral and having a higher NM. How ever the first 17 increase in moral has happen it seems to go much faster than what was seen in pre 1.07.06 2ndly is that there is no provision in the rules of getting from 97 to 99 moral less from wins, not the case here. There are rules about less than NN, not the case, the good supply rule capped at 75, not the case here and then the refit bonus 10+ hexes away from the enemy. Well according to the rules its supposedly capped at 50, but i would say my experience is that this is some what not working as the rules states and ppl could pre 1.07.06 get units higher than 50 with refit bonsus but it was slooow see Carls charts)and 97-99 moral in 1 turn is certain far from the norm. Again the moral workings of this seems to go faster than in pre 1.07.06. Then there is: quote: ORIGINAL: SigUp The morale rise since 1.07 is really quick. I just discovered that with my Rumanien units. On turn 15 I railed a Rumanian division back to Rumania with morale 41 to refit. Two turns later it is already on morale 49. Another Rumanian infantry division was sent to Odessa as garrison. On turn 10 when the rails reached Odessa it was on morale 40. Turn 17 it was on morale 50, without refit. Well, we 2 issues here. First the 2 divs on refit goes from 41 to 49 in 2 turns. Well since 41 is over the rumenian NM the increase can only per post 1.07.06 rules come from the refit bonus, the "The unit's morale is below 50, and it is more than 10 hexes away from the nearest enemy unit" with out refit and possibly from the "good supply bonus". Thats 8 in moral increased in refit in 2 turns. Much fast than what I experienced pre 1.07.06. Then there is the issue of the units at Odessa. Since it was moral 40 over NM the increase "cant" come from that. It wasnt on refit so the increase cant come from there. Then there is only two possible explantion for the 10 moral increase and that is "good supply" rules and the +10 hexes away from enemy rule. 10 moral increase in 7 turns. Again much higher than i experienced in the pre 1.07.06 situasion. Not to talk about lots of ppls general observation noted in this thread and naturally has fouces on the effect on russian side but its apprent it happens on both sides. Well, supposedly the bug fix in 1.07.06 only a dealth with a specific part of moral increase: V1.07.06� April 12, 2013 � New Features and Rule Changes � Bug Fixes 1. Fixed a bug that prevented a part of rule 9.1.1 from functioning correctly. Units that were below their national morale were not getting the chance to gain morale simply due to the fact that they were below the national morale. Now they get the chance, and if they go up (they must pass various checks), they will receive an increase of die(10% of their national morale), but not to exceed the national morale. Well the pattern i speak off is that it seems that post 1.07.06. That its moral increases across the board that is much faster than pre 1.07.06 not only those that can possibly be related to the stated changes. Am i crazy or ppl see the same pattern? Has the fix unintentionaly(i asssume) not only made the stated changes, but has some how bugged moral increases in general? so every thing related to moral increases happens much faster than pre 1.07.06 Ppl got any other observasion that either supports or dispells this? Kind regards, Rasmus

SigUp -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/12/2013 8:49:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Walloc quote: ORIGINAL: SigUp As for the main discussion, I think all in all getting morale increases above NM should be much harder. I just noticed 78th Infantry Division back in East Prussia has experienced a bump of morale from 97 to 99 from turn 24 to 25. Then the distance should be increased. As has been stated before 10 hexes for the Soviets basically can serve as a reserve defensive line. 2 issues in this. 78th ID starts at 80 moral and is now 97. How the f.. do u get up to 97 in 24 turns. Sure u could pre 1.07.06 get higher than NM in moral from wins, but getting to 97 from 80 was damn near impossible less it was a SS unit, starting at higher moral and having a higher NM. How ever the first 17 increase in moral has happen it seems to go much faster than what was seen in pre 1.07.06 When you mentioned it, it is certainly true. And in truth it is even scarier than that. 78th Infantry Division was pulled out of the front on turn 18 (10-16-1941). So basically it achieved 17 morale in 18 turns. Now, I think I did launch many attacks with that division, and as far as I know it was practically never involved in a losing battle.

Walloc -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/15/2013 7:13:59 AM)
Was it some thing i said... No one, observed any thing related to this either way? Rasmus

morvael -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/15/2013 8:29:24 AM)
The brigades do not get +5 but rather have a minimum NM of 50, even if main Soviet morale is below 50. I have noticed my units going up 3-4 morale points per turn, from winning battles. Sometimes those units have higher CV (on counter) after the battle, than before - even with fatigue and casualties suffered.

Peltonx -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/15/2013 9:36:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Walloc quote: ORIGINAL: Denniss Another example of the borked soviet morale: the two soviet garrisons and one infantry brigade between Helsinki and Turku. They start with 40 morale and at turn 4 they are already at ~53, one turn later after two defensive wins they are at 57, 58 and 60. Detailed, Bde-fort-fort: T2: 46-53(!)-46 T3: 47-53-53(!) T3: 52-53-53 T4: 52-53-53 I have no idea why the one fort received this 13pt boost in T2 - maybe combination of below 50 morale + below NM + in good supply? Without a boost for the Axis AI it's usually not able to break these Bde+Forts. I have seen it trying for some turn then starting to ignore them, leaving the Bde free hand to move in Finland, eventually leading to early Fin surrender. U prolly know more about the inner workings than me Dennis, but seeing ur examples my line of thinking would be. 50 Start NM, going down to presumably 49 by turn 3. They bde gets a +5 to NM so the limit could be at 54. As i read the rules Forts/garrsions sholdnt get the bonus, but ur example makes me wonder if there is a bug and they get it too. I means it wouldnt be the first time sub divisional units gets bugged. As in the case of FDB brigades movement and the sub divisional units recieving the wrong movement bonus in the surprise bonus. At leased this is some thing i would ask Joel about what is the intend and possibly test then. Now there is some thing i always wondered, but actually never checked. It states in the rules regarding to the +10 hex refit moral units units need to be 10 hexes away from enemy supplied units. Well the finns starts as frozen. Do frozen units count as enemy units or not for this purpose? If they dont u could get up too +5(4.9) from the below NM increase rule and what ever u get from the refit bonus. 13 seems more than a stretch, but the 6-7 that is given per turn seems within the possible, tho not that likely. As per post 1.07.06 rules. Odd thing is that it stops at 52/53 and not 54 tho. The moral increase for the won battles seems very unlike in the pre 1.07.06 world. Im starting to see a pattern tho. U have what seem unusally high(fast) increases in moral between turn(thats known), but more interresting is the high increase from the battles/ how fast it goes up. quote: ORIGINAL: SigUp As for the main discussion, I think all in all getting morale increases above NM should be much harder. I just noticed 78th Infantry Division back in East Prussia has experienced a bump of morale from 97 to 99 from turn 24 to 25. Then the distance should be increased. As has been stated before 10 hexes for the Soviets basically can serve as a reserve defensive line. 2 issues in this. 78th ID starts at 80 moral and is now 97. How the f.. do u get up to 97 in 24 turns. Sure u could pre 1.07.06 get higher than NM in moral from wins, but getting to 97 from 80 was damn near impossible less it was a SS unit, starting at higher moral and having a higher NM. How ever the first 17 increase in moral has happen it seems to go much faster than what was seen in pre 1.07.06 2ndly is that there is no provision in the rules of getting from 97 to 99 moral less from wins, not the case here. There are rules about less than NN, not the case, the good supply rule capped at 75, not the case here and then the refit bonus 10+ hexes away from the enemy. Well according to the rules its supposedly capped at 50, but i would say my experience is that this is some what not working as the rules states and ppl could pre 1.07.06 get units higher than 50 with refit bonsus but it was slooow see Carls charts)and 97-99 moral in 1 turn is certain far from the norm. Again the moral workings of this seems to go faster than in pre 1.07.06. Then there is: quote: ORIGINAL: SigUp The morale rise since 1.07 is really quick. I just discovered that with my Rumanien units. On turn 15 I railed a Rumanian division back to Rumania with morale 41 to refit. Two turns later it is already on morale 49. Another Rumanian infantry division was sent to Odessa as garrison. On turn 10 when the rails reached Odessa it was on morale 40. Turn 17 it was on morale 50, without refit. Well, we 2 issues here. First the 2 divs on refit goes from 41 to 49 in 2 turns. Well since 41 is over the rumenian NM the increase can only per post 1.07.06 rules come from the refit bonus, the "The unit's morale is below 50, and it is more than 10 hexes away from the nearest enemy unit" with out refit and possibly from the "good supply bonus". Thats 8 in moral increased in refit in 2 turns. Much fast than what I experienced pre 1.07.06. Then there is the issue of the units at Odessa. Since it was moral 40 over NM the increase "cant" come from that. It wasnt on refit so the increase cant come from there. Then there is only two possible explantion for the 10 moral increase and that is "good supply" rules and the +10 hexes away from enemy rule. 10 moral increase in 7 turns. Again much higher than i experienced in the pre 1.07.06 situasion. Not to talk about lots of ppls general observation noted in this thread and naturally has fouces on the effect on russian side but its apprent it happens on both sides. Well, supposedly the bug fix in 1.07.06 only a dealth with a specific part of moral increase: V1.07.06� April 12, 2013 � New Features and Rule Changes � Bug Fixes 1. Fixed a bug that prevented a part of rule 9.1.1 from functioning correctly. Units that were below their national morale were not getting the chance to gain morale simply due to the fact that they were below the national morale. Now they get the chance, and if they go up (they must pass various checks), they will receive an increase of die(10% of their national morale), but not to exceed the national morale. Well the pattern i speak off is that it seems that post 1.07.06. That its moral increases across the board that is much faster than pre 1.07.06 not only those that can possibly be related to the stated changes. Am i crazy or ppl see the same pattern? Has the fix unintentionaly(i asssume) not only made the stated changes, but has some how bugged moral increases in general? so every thing related to moral increases happens much faster than pre 1.07.06 Ppl got any other observasion that either supports or dispells this? Kind regards, Rasmus Yes morale is now completely screwed up. Girl gone wild, now its Morale gone wild!!

Denniss -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/15/2013 1:58:17 PM)
No need for drama, all we need is some official information what they intend to change to fix these morale issues. Would also be nice to get some info how the TOE change issue are going to be resolved (the german 75mm ATG issue amongst others).

Walloc -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/15/2013 4:14:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Denniss No need for drama, all we need is some official information what they intend to change to fix these morale issues. Would also be nice to get some info how the TOE change issue are going to be resolved (the german 75mm ATG issue amongst others). I agree Dennis, the above post doesnt help. It would help if we can help identify the issue. If, underlining if the fix has changed the pace of increase and possibly decrease in moral in general. From win/losses and such. It wont necesarrily help only fixing the soviet moral limit. If its much easier in combat/win to gain moral see the 97 moral german infs unit in 17 turns and what u got with ur wins for the russian side. That has an effect out over what the NM level should be, how and if the refit bonus should be Applied and what chnages to that will do to the balance. Hench my asking for other ppls observations on this. Any how Joel isnt avaible for some time so there wont be any official looking at this here and now. Kind regards, Rasmus

fbs -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/15/2013 8:48:24 PM)
bump.

Aurelian -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/15/2013 9:25:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fbs I think that the important question around this is: if Germany uses historical strategy/tactics, it will lose. So, could Germany use non-historical strategy/tactics against a historical USSR and win? - I believe it could. The flaw is that you assume that as the Germans lost doing A while the Russians did B, if they do C, the Russians will still do B. The game already allows the Axis to C, or anything else.

fbs -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/15/2013 9:55:02 PM)
and bump.

Flaviusx -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/15/2013 10:24:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fbs Those that believe that the USSR should necessarily win the war against Germany forget the other cases where a smaller, better equipped or better led nation, or a nation willing to fight to win instead of fight to compromise, won against bigger enemies: Alexander vs. Persians Napoleon vs. Italy/Austria-Hungary Rome vs. Gauls Mongols vs Everybody North Vietname vs. South Vietnam/USA UK vs. Indian Kingdoms UK vs. China (Opium wars) Mughals vs. India UK vs. Napoleon Israel vs. Arabs etc... I think that the important question around this is: if Germany uses historical strategy/tactics, it will lose. So, could Germany use non-historical strategy/tactics against a historical USSR and win? - I believe it could. Also, if Germany used non-historical strategy/tactics against non-historical Soviet strategy/tactics, what would be the result? - I think that's a big unknown. If people think a fair game is one that allows 50/50 chance of winning, then I think that the best position for WiTE would be to allow for greater flexibility for non-historical strategy/tactics for the German player. But, as I'm a big fan of keeping historical perspective, I believe in a different definition of a fair game: assuming Germany is going to lose, then the German Player should win if he achieves better than historical results for Germany, even if at the end he loses the war, and the best way to do that is by adding VPs per turn - that gives incentive to move deeper into the USSR, and gives incentive for the Soviet player to hold to territory even if that means losing soldiers. None of these examples are particularly persuasive or much resemble the conflict on the Eastern Front. But if you want a good classical reference, I have already mentioned the 2nd Punic War. Here the parallel is much more instructive, with Rome anticipating the Soviets and Carthage the Germans in many respects. All of Hannibal's genius in the end wasn't enough. Rome took an incredible beating but stubbornly refused to fall apart.

elmo3 -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/15/2013 10:56:11 PM)
Off we go into the wild blue yonder again. It looks like a few people are determined to derail this thread for whatever reason. Just so everyone knows, I'm probably going to start nuking irrelevant posts to force this on-topic for when Joel gets back. Please stay on topic or take your discussion elsewhere.

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