RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (Full Version)

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mmarquo -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/16/2013 10:17:18 PM)

Turn 5 in a match against a WITE newbie but very experienced war gamer; he is retreating and giving up larger swaths of territory- this turn many of his checkerboard trash units would not yield to hasty attacks; in the old days a single MTZ division could rout them out and advance no problem. Now, it requires a stack of units for successful hasty attacks, especially if the defender is not in clear terrain.

I think the solution is to directly attach 3 support units to any German unit performing hasty attacks after turn 4 or 5.

Marquo



Michael T -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/18/2013 12:44:26 AM)

Not sure if this has been mentioned before but Attrition (including retreat attrition) is dependant on morale. So a Red army with a higher overall morale will suffer fewer losses to all forms of attrition. Over the course of many turns this will add up to a significant benefit to the Red Army over previous incarnations.



Peltonx -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/19/2013 1:13:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Turn 5 in a match against a WITE newbie but very experienced war gamer; he is retreating and giving up larger swaths of territory- this turn many of his checkerboard trash units would not yield to hasty attacks; in the old days a single MTZ division could rout them out and advance no problem. Now, it requires a stack of units for successful hasty attacks, especially if the defender is not in clear terrain.

I think the solution is to directly attach 3 support units to any German unit performing hasty attacks after turn 4 or 5.

Marquo


GHC simply does not have the AP to do stuff like that the first 6 turns. If GHC does not keep SHC on the run they are toast, we have seen enough AAR's to see that.



mmarquo -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/19/2013 1:43:09 PM)

Since no one has played a campaign out to the bitter end with the new patch, hard to tell what is going to happen. For example, will the degraded Axis 1942 Spring offensive capability patch be too harsh now?



timmyab -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/19/2013 6:59:26 PM)

I've just finished turn 6 of an Axis 41 campaign and I have to say that I'm quite enjoying the challenge posed by the tougher Soviet formations.It gives the early game a more historical feel.The Germans can't just barge their way through Soviet defenses if they choose to hold their ground.They either need to use stealth or concentrate for a set piece battle which makes for an interesting game.
I think if the Soviets could be forced to defend forward to the point that large pocket are likely and the blizzard was tamed the game would balance out nicely and start to conform more to history.
Maybe 45 morale is a quick fix but we'll be back to the IRUNURUN game that we've had since release.



morvael -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/20/2013 7:58:19 AM)

As I said it's ok if 1941 is harder, but this must be offset by easier winter and '42.



Rodimstev -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/20/2013 9:16:14 AM)

hi all,
sorry for my bad English but french are not expert in foreign language.

So,
the subject is the moral about the Red army in 41...patch after patch, we try to improve a well balanced game play just
for a only objective, try to have a chance to win if you are axis or soviet...

But this chance is not a function about a patch but about players.

it is important to understand that WITE is not played only by "expert" but a large community of players with différents level of expertise.

i think the good idea is to have level of players and for the "expert" level for example linked house rule to have a challenging game. It is possible because for a lot games, there are house rules.

why?

because in 41, the moral soviet army is more complicated as just a balanced 10 points as the moral axis army too.

i am not a expert in WITE but, i can say that i have a solid knowledge to the germano-soviet war and in the early august,it is certain that the moral in AGC and AGN fall. (see the military rapport about division commander, OKH, OKW rapports...)
In WITE, we can't observe it because it dépends the current military situation.

may be the true question is to know how many moral points a unit can gain by 1 tour if this unit is to 10 hex behind the front line in refit mode.

Rodimstev




The Guru -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/20/2013 12:25:36 PM)

quote:

in the early august,it is certain that the moral in AGC and AGN fall.


I keep pleading for linking morale to (among other things) territorial gains/losses on a schedule basis, duly penalizing for failing to achieve the expected progression or for losing too much territory too quickly - which would put a realistic "political" brake to crazy withdrawals



fbs -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/20/2013 4:33:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: The Guru

quote:

in the early august,it is certain that the moral in AGC and AGN fall.


I keep pleading for linking morale to (among other things) territorial gains/losses on a schedule basis, duly penalizing for failing to achieve the expected progression or for losing too much territory too quickly - which would put a realistic "political" brake to crazy withdrawals



Hey, that's a good suggestion!

Easiest way to do that is to have a small penalty to morale for each population that is lost (i.e., smaller for small cities, bigger for big cities). Should be easy to do, I reckon.



Oberst_Klink -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/20/2013 6:28:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fbs


quote:

ORIGINAL: The Guru

quote:

in the early august,it is certain that the moral in AGC and AGN fall.


I keep pleading for linking morale to (among other things) territorial gains/losses on a schedule basis, duly penalizing for failing to achieve the expected progression or for losing too much territory too quickly - which would put a realistic "political" brake to crazy withdrawals



Hey, that's a good suggestion!

Easiest way to do that is to have a small penalty to morale for each population that is lost (i.e., smaller for small cities, bigger for big cities). Should be easy to do, I reckon.

Easy, aye. I like the idea as well, at least that would make sense during 1941, the same for the Axis maybe starting in the post-Kursk time period or when the Soviets enter Eastern Prussia. The question is... is it hard-coded into the game system or not?

Klink, Oberst



Shupov -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/21/2013 1:28:31 PM)

+1 Simply link NM to VP



STEF78 -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/21/2013 1:39:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shupov

+1 Simply link NM to VP

+1

It would also prevent running for the hills for the SHC and rereat to Poland in 12/1941 for the GHC



Shupov -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/21/2013 7:10:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmart

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
You can not and never will change the cold hard numbers I put up. They simply can't be refuted by anything other then fairytales and feelings.


...

To the topic, it seems the easy solution is to reduce Russian NM to below 50 (likely 45) in 1941, and/or reduce the size of morale gains when refitting 10+ hexes from the enemy, or make the requirement to be 20+ hexes away.

Alternatively, it could be incremental: 10+ hexes gives max 1 per turn gain, 20+ hexes gives 2 per turn, 30+ hexes 3 per turn, etc, although that might be not so easy for the programers to implement.

quote:

To the topic, it seems the easy solution is to reduce Russian NM to below 50 (likely 45) in 1941, and/or reduce the size of morale gains when refitting 10+ hexes from the enemy, or make the requirement to be 20+ hexes away.

Alternatively, it could be incremental: 10+ hexes gives max 1 per turn gain, 20+ hexes gives 2 per turn, 30+ hexes 3 per turn, etc, although that might be not so easy for the programers to implement.


I support reducing Russian morale increases with or without tying NM to VP (although I'd prefer tying them together). I don't support changing the 10+ hex rule. It seems like this is just being thrown into the mix without considering how it will affect both sides.

The Russians won't be much affected in 1941 - they will just keep new units further back. I keep them in the Volga and Southern Ural MD's until morale gains up to NM or 50. Currently this happens much faster than before. The Russian rail net has much higher capacity and runs right up to the front until the blizzard, so new units can be railed almost right into battle.

The Germans will be more affected in 1941 until their rail net catches up with the front. Refitting units will need to move further from the front without rail.

The German rail net will catch up with the front, but once they go on the defensive it will be more difficult to refit units. In bad weather even the Panzer units will have to use rail to move units 20+ hexes away. This will be a problem as the Germans have less available rail and it may be disrupted by partisan attacks.

Finally, I don't see realistically why units 200 miles from the front would improve morale much more than 100 miles. True they would me mostly out of tactical bomber range, but is that such a big factor?



Joel Billings -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/22/2013 11:22:55 PM)

Somewhere back in this thread there was a post about a unit's morale going up from 97 to 99 without being involved in combat. If I didn't already say it, this is clearly a bug if it happened. The only way morale can go up like that would be if the unit won some battles (was it attacked by the Soviets?). I've seen no other reports of this kind of morale increase so if it's happening, I bet it's incredibly rare. If you see something like this happen we'd love to get a before and after save.

I spoke with Ketza at Historicon and he was telling me that he's found increasing German Morale a little (105% in his latest case) is a great balancing tool for 2 player games. It seems to work better than adjusting Soviet morale. This leads me to think that for players that don't care what side they're going to play, they could use German morale in some kind of bidding way to determine which player was going to play German (the person willing to play with the lower German morale setting would get the German side).

Sometime in the next few weeks we'll take a serious look at possibly making a change or two and we'll review the feedback in this thread. We'll be limited to morale changes as we're not opening up the rest of the game. Bigger changes will have to wait until WitE 2.0 down the road. Thanks for the feedback.



SigUp -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/22/2013 11:39:34 PM)

About this 97 to 99 I found the reason. I didn't notice that when I went to check the settings the prior turn I accidently changed German morale (up). So this explains it.



Michael T -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/22/2013 11:51:10 PM)

I agree with Joel and Ketza. Adjusting down Soviet morale from 100 to 95 won't make much difference as Soviet morale is effectively 50. It seems unless there is an official patch the best thing to is up Axis morale to around 105.

If there is a patch, I hope it actually makes Soviet NM work properly, as ATM its always at least 50.





Peltonx -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/23/2013 2:13:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

I agree with Joel and Ketza. Adjusting down Soviet morale from 100 to 95 won't make much difference as Soviet morale is effectively 50. It seems unless there is an official patch the best thing to is up Axis morale to around 105.

If there is a patch, I hope it actually makes Soviet NM work properly, as ATM its always at least 50.





Yes as stated lowing SHC is pointless as all axis allies and Russians NM is 50.

IF IF 2by3 would remove the if 10 hexes from the front an morale is under 50 rule. Its about as historical as 1v1=2v1.

Who comes up with some of these simply Middle Earth rules?

Why have NM if you got some loop hole any moron can drive a truck through and make the rest of the rule book on morale pointless?



Michael T -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/23/2013 3:02:20 AM)

Adjusting Axis morale settings up is not the answer. See my post in the other thread.

I am despondent [:(]



Walloc -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/23/2013 3:26:28 PM)

Joel,

I think its clear from Peltons tests in the other thread and annecdotal evidence that moral gains from combat/wins seems to go up faster post 1.07.06 then pre. I susepct its to any kinda moral not only below the NM but well im not sure.
I could very well be wrong but as i read the readme file on the fix in 1.07.06 it doesnt seem to suggest there should be any change to that part of moral gains. Only for the regain below NM. Peltons tests shows the faster increase also happens at way above NM levels.
If im correct is the moral gain from combat being higher post 1.07.06. intended or a bug created in the bug fixing?

Kind regards,

Rasmus



Peltonx -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/23/2013 3:53:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Walloc

Joel,

I think its clear from Peltons tests in the other thread and annecdotal evidence that moral gains from combat/wins seems to go up faster post 1.07.06 then pre. I susepct its to any kinda moral not only below the NM but well im not sure.
I could very well be wrong but as i read the readme file on the fix in 1.07.06 it doesnt seem to suggest there should be any change to that part of moral gains. Only for the regain below NM. Peltons tests shows the faster increase also happens at way above NM levels.
If im correct is the moral gain from combat being higher post 1.07.06. intended or a bug created in the bug fixing?

Kind regards,

Rasmus


The chances to gain morale at lower levels was changed I do not think anything else has changed, but I could be wrong.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3370105&mpage=2&key=



Walloc -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/23/2013 4:27:12 PM)

Well i've seen examples of units not on refit, above NM, but below 50 and 10+ hexes away from enemy. Getting moral increases faster too but its mostly annecdotal as i havent tested it. Again if i read the bug fix correct it only goes to regain below NM which is not the case in above stated case.

Note in 9.1.1 there are 2 rules for units to gain moral below 50, outside of the below NM regain rule and then the good supply rule capped at 75. One with on refit and +10 hexe away and one not on refit and +10 hexes away. So there is that provision and some things suggest that this goes faster too. The non refit, but below 50 moral, but above NM, 10 hexes way moral regain.
Why i think it affects the post 1.07.06 moral gains in general, but i certainly could be wrong.



mktours -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/24/2013 2:13:26 AM)

Joel, here is some feedback
i have recently play 2 Pbem game as German after 1.0708, 1 won, 1 is in very commanding situation with the game slowing down and i am still waiting my opponent's turn.
i have also played the game in 1.06 version, and i could see that the soviet side has been strengthened after 1.0708, that forced me to adjust my strategy and tactics, but the German side is still getting the upper hand.
my idea is that the German side still have much potential to be exploited, the more challenge, the better.

Btw, i would like to invite some good player who is advocating the current morale system is favoring the soviet side to play a Pbem game with me ( i would be the German side), and we could both do a AAR. if anyone is interested, please pm me.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Somewhere back in this thread there was a post about a unit's morale going up from 97 to 99 without being involved in combat. If I didn't already say it, this is clearly a bug if it happened. The only way morale can go up like that would be if the unit won some battles (was it attacked by the Soviets?). I've seen no other reports of this kind of morale increase so if it's happening, I bet it's incredibly rare. If you see something like this happen we'd love to get a before and after save.

I spoke with Ketza at Historicon and he was telling me that he's found increasing German Morale a little (105% in his latest case) is a great balancing tool for 2 player games. It seems to work better than adjusting Soviet morale. This leads me to think that for players that don't care what side they're going to play, they could use German morale in some kind of bidding way to determine which player was going to play German (the person willing to play with the lower German morale setting would get the German side).

Sometime in the next few weeks we'll take a serious look at possibly making a change or two and we'll review the feedback in this thread. We'll be limited to morale changes as we're not opening up the rest of the game. Bigger changes will have to wait until WitE 2.0 down the road. Thanks for the feedback.



Michael T -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/24/2013 2:43:25 AM)

Please someone take this guy on and show him the truth of the matter....



mktours -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/24/2013 3:01:55 AM)

Well, Michael, i would be happy to play against anyone under 100-100 in this version as German, even against you, though i am not saying i could match you of course. the truth isn't decided yet, [:)]
quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Please someone take this guy on and show him the truth of the matter....




Peltonx -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/24/2013 3:05:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Please someone take this guy on and show him the truth of the matter....


he is right MT the morale system at 100 vs 100 favors GHC ALLOT in the long run and I mean allot.The down side is 1941, but just because you can not easly win in 1941 any more does not mean the system is broken. It simply means you have to play the games out.

I agree that the 50 rule needs to be dropped to 45, but other then that the game is as perfect as it can be.

You been the best at fuel and 1941, but there is another world 42-45 and its 100% about morale/ defensive systems/ disbanding units ect ect.

The bugs that were removed has made getting draws as GHC allot easyer. As long as GHC does not blow there good morale from 1941 they are set.



Michael T -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/24/2013 3:20:21 AM)

mktours, nothing would please me more than to enlighten you. But sadly I do not have the time. Perhaps one day. But I am sure there are others who could prove the point.

Pelton your morale farming days will soon be over. See my bug report.



mktours -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/24/2013 3:31:44 AM)

"enlightn" isn't a good word, i am not happy with that word, you didn't know my ability other than i am a newcomer to this forum, that is not approriate for you to use this word. according to my impression, you are the ace in this forum, and i respect that, but you know little about me. it is unjust and impolite that you make judgement on someone who you know so little.
edited: well, maybe i didn't understand the word correctly as i am not a native english speaker, anyway, it might not be serious and we can get alone with.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

mktours, nothing would please me more than to enlighten you. But sadly I do not have the time. Perhaps one day. But I am sure there are others who could prove the point.

Pelton your morale farming days will soon be over. See my bug report.




Michael T -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/24/2013 4:09:17 AM)

Well I do not intend to offend you. Perhaps 'prove the point' is more appropriate than 'enlighten'. I apologize for any unintended disrespect you may have perceived.



mktours -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/24/2013 6:18:43 AM)

that will be fine,[:)]
as i had edited in my post above, i am no a native english speaker and might not perceive the word correctly, i am sure we could be friends.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Well I do not intend to offend you. Perhaps 'prove the point' is more appropriate than 'enlighten'. I apologize for any unintended disrespect you may have perceived.




Don77 -> RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. (7/24/2013 9:02:06 AM)

Guards Units

Another impact of the currently high Sov morale - getting Guards status is quicker, and of greater volume. I am at T16 (playing Ge) against a good opponent, and the Sovs now have close to 20 Guards Rifle Divs. This may be directly from combat victories, or though better morale indirectly contributing to higher base morale or resilience? Right now my opponent is counter attacking with multiple Guards Divs (grouped into armies). Interestingly, this in turn could contribute to the 'snowball effect'; that Pelton talks about (this time in the Sovs favour)

Appreciate anyone else's insights to whether there are more Guards in 41 their experiences?

Don



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