your dreams about witp 2 :) (Full Version)

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czert2 -> your dreams about witp 2 :) (12/22/2013 4:27:42 AM)

mine :):
1. posible start in 1937 - begining of china war
2. player will have more control over production (mean starting of new ahistorical constuctions) with some based on posibilities and not historical facts - say as japan you are succesfull and have plenty of planes/pilots in 44..so you need shinano as full fleet carrier, not as floating supply base for other fleet carriers :).
3 "ahistorical" upgades - since now, you know if that ship (class) was sunk in 42/43 and it will survive in your game to 45..you are forever stuck in 42/43 version, unless you manualy modify database
4. implemented events, based on your gameplay - say if you conquer of 60-80% of territory+ capital of enemy nation it will surender...removing need to capture dot bases.
5. perfomance based events - say if you perform better than in history, then leadership can give you rewards - like starting constuction of new units (and you can select which ones :) ), assign ou new war targets, extra units...and of course if you perfom badly they can give you ultimatums (or they will remove you from command) or simply restict your commad to certain areas
6. hq can give you war goals (which can act as guide to players :)) - like conquer this are in 6 monts, increase aircraft/ship production..etc.
7. historical map - so you can compare your actual progres (in months) to historical reality
8. diplomacy - so you can speak with your allies/neutrals - or more precisely - you will make these propositions to your nation eadership and it will consideate them, and then accept, decline or modify and send to that nation :).



Numdydar -> RE: your dreams about witp 2 :) (12/22/2013 6:06:19 AM)

So why not just play HoI III :) It has all of that already [:)]

The game is already over 1,600 turns and you want to add another 1,500+ to it [X(]. That is not a dream it is a nightmare.



Yaab -> RE: your dreams about witp 2 :) (12/22/2013 6:24:48 AM)

1. Better AI
2. Better scalable interface a la Tracker.
3. More detail (more bases, units, devices etc.) a la RHS mod
4. Aviation gas

Call it Rear Admiral edition beacuse your rear will hurt trying to play the game.



GaryChildress -> RE: your dreams about witp 2 :) (12/22/2013 6:39:11 AM)


1. A more user friendly editor. You plug in known stats for things and the game engine does ALL the work converting those stats into the more nebulous values like "maneuver", "accuracy", "soft attack", "hard attack", etc. Right now there's just too much guess work and abstraction and no one seems to know or be able to divulge how those values work or what they're based on. Therefore impossible to create scenarios involving anything other than predefined editor items.

2. The ability to control ALLIED production also.



Spidery -> RE: your dreams about witp 2 :) (12/22/2013 8:11:06 AM)

1. Gas - covering aviation and vehicles
2. An automated pilot training program (put air groups into it, specify what pilot skill you want)
3. User-defined pilot pools (so you can set up a pool for ASW and another for Ground support)
4. CAS Missions
5. Differentiated costs to build aircraft (2 Nates or 1 Frank?)
6. More flexibility with PDU OFF or less with PDU ON
7. Revamped withdrawal scheme, eg. must withdraw a BB of at least xxx VP value, if none are available then given a different requirement and take a one off PP hit.



spence -> RE: your dreams about witp 2 :) (12/22/2013 11:15:47 AM)

1) A scenario that runs from April 1942 to December 1943 but map wide. The victory conditions would not allow the IJ player to "win" because of what was done before (the original IJ victories) but would require the attainment of some 2nd Phase objectives. Likewise the Allied Player would have to do some things better than what was accomplished IRL (There would have to be a wide span of victory points that would constitute a Stalemate in game terms). The pull for players of either stripe would be that they needn't endure those portions of the war (beginning and end) where one player is completely dominant.

2) A "But Not In Shame (credits to author John Toland)" scenario: Dec 41-Mar 42. We already have Downfall for all the JFB masochists. This is just an equivalent for the AFB masochists. In this one the map would be restricted to Malaya, Burma, DEI, PI. More less the equivalent of the scenario included in the original WitP scenarios. A nice 100 day scenario (short) if properly balanced VP wise.



Miller -> RE: your dreams about witp 2 :) (12/22/2013 11:18:38 AM)

"ahistorical upgrades" already exist. Just look at all the CVs Japan lost at Midway for starters.



czert2 -> RE: your dreams about witp 2 :) (12/22/2013 11:18:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

1. Better AI
2. Better scalable interface a la Tracker.
3. More detail (more bases, units, devices etc.) a la RHS mod
4. Aviation gas

Call it Rear Admiral edition beacuse your rear will hurt trying to play the game.



Oh yeah, i forgot - in my dream withp have integrated tracer in it :).

And why no hoi3 ? well i play it too, but i dont like it that much like withp, because of to big genelazition, some big innaucuracities, soem thinks completly missed....well it realy need a lot of modding work to feel histrorical accurate.



czert2 -> RE: your dreams about witp 2 :) (12/22/2013 11:20:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

So why not just play HoI III :) It has all of that already [:)]

The game is already over 1,600 turns and you want to add another 1,500+ to it [X(]. That is not a dream it is a nightmare.


well im REALY big massochists :).
And china war will progres much fatser, because you know, you dont have to plan pacific invasions :). And it will be great way to test ai for supplying bases :).



Puhis -> RE: your dreams about witp 2 :) (12/22/2013 11:23:42 AM)

1) Better AI

2) Better ground combat model; current model and 1 day turn rate is really bad combination.

3) New UI.



czert2 -> RE: your dreams about witp 2 :) (12/22/2013 11:26:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

"ahistorical upgrades" already exist. Just look at all the CVs Japan lost at Midway for starters.


for some ships yes, for others not :).



Miller -> RE: your dreams about witp 2 :) (12/22/2013 11:35:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: czert2


quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

"ahistorical upgrades" already exist. Just look at all the CVs Japan lost at Midway for starters.


for some ships yes, for others not :).


All ships sunk in the real war, no matter how early, have upgrades in 44 or 45.



Chickenboy -> RE: your dreams about witp 2 :) (12/22/2013 1:10:05 PM)

Ability to control incoming trainee pilot flows on a monthly basis. Same rules for HI expenditures, but I'd like to be able to stem the flow a bit.



Feltan -> RE: your dreams about witp 2 :) (12/22/2013 1:53:19 PM)

If I am going to dream, I'll dream big: a world wide map using the WITP-AE system to model modern day political, military and economic events. I don't care if the turns take a couple of days -- it would be cool beyond belief, and I would probably have to consider early retirement and relocating to a secluded cabin so no one would bother me.

Regards,
Feltan



crsutton -> RE: your dreams about witp 2 :) (12/22/2013 4:31:00 PM)

Well, I doubt you will ever see a WITP2.

However, one thing that would be fun is a 1945-46 scenario with all of the cool late war and post war goodies. It would assume that the Torch landings ended in disaster thus committing the Allies to a defensive strategy in the Pacific for two years. Thus the strategic map in the Pacific would look more like mid 1943 when mid 45 rolls around. It would be a lot of fun, but would take some thought to design.



kaleun -> RE: your dreams about witp 2 :) (12/22/2013 5:26:53 PM)

You know, I believe this is the busiest forum in the Matrix game arena.
IMHO if I was running Matrix, I would consider a WITP2 at some point.
I'm sure it would be profitable.



crsutton -> RE: your dreams about witp 2 :) (12/22/2013 6:09:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kaleun

You know, I believe this is the busiest forum in the Matrix game arena.
IMHO if I was running Matrix, I would consider a WITP2 at some point.
I'm sure it would be profitable.



Probably not. It is a devoted sector of gamers who are passionate about the game. (That is why we have AE), but it is not really that large of a group and not many units could be sold. Personally, considering the time I have spent playing this damn game over the past decade, I would gladly pay $400 for a new one. That is cheap considering what I would get out of it. But most would not.



kaleun -> RE: your dreams about witp 2 :) (12/22/2013 10:37:08 PM)

quote:

I would gladly pay $400 for a new one. That is cheap considering what I would get out of it. But most would not.


What he said.



Moose -> RE: your dreams about witp 2 :) (12/22/2013 11:11:54 PM)

Easier UI, campaign from 8/42 until end.



morejeffs -> RE: your dreams about witp 2 :) (12/23/2013 1:26:59 AM)

Just make a Japanese language version of AE (no need to change the rules). This way, we can get a lot of Japanese players (who will most likely prefer to play the empire to join PBEM ranks). Making it would be easy (just need lots of translation). There is a decent sized market for Pacific War games here (demand met by local Japanese companies) I would doubt any of the local product could compare to AE. It would also be an easier business decision.



PaxMondo -> RE: your dreams about witp 2 :) (12/23/2013 1:39:26 AM)

You know, and please nobody hate me too much, but I really am quite happy with the game as is. Sometimes I will get a bit perturbed with some facet, but never for long. Sitting here now, I find myself quite happy with the game as is ... particularly with John, Andy, and Michael all still actively contributing and most of the rest of the devs lurking in the back ground.


[&o][&o][&o]





Feltan -> RE: your dreams about witp 2 :) (12/23/2013 2:20:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

You know, and please nobody hate me too much, but I really am quite happy with the game as is. Sometimes I will get a bit perturbed with some facet, but never for long. Sitting here now, I find myself quite happy with the game as is ... particularly with John, Andy, and Michael all still actively contributing and most of the rest of the devs lurking in the back ground.


[&o][&o][&o]






You suck up!

I bet you were the kid who always told the teacher what a great job they were doing and how much you liked them!

[:D]

Regards,
Feltan



wdolson -> RE: your dreams about witp 2 :) (12/23/2013 5:45:03 AM)

AE is a very successful game in a very tiny corner of the game market. Historically accurate war games have never been a huge market. Back in the board game days, a super hit like Advanced Squad Leader sold on the order of 10,000 copies total over its lifespan. Hasbro, the 2000 pound gorilla in the board game market won't consider releasing a game unless they think they can sell at least 100,000 copies a year.

There are some computer war games that have been successful, but all the big seller have really abstracted things quite a bit or were first person shooters. WitP fans are like Firefly fans. There aren't all that many of them in the general population, but they are passionate about their thing.

AE came about by rewriting and extending the existing engine. What you're talking about here would require writing an entirely new engine. It's technically possible, but to do it in any reasonable time would probably require a team of programmers doing it as their "day job". The reason you see a lot of derivatives of old game engines coming out year after year is because it's a lot cheaper to build on and expand an old engine than it is to build a new one. But every game engine comes to the end of it's expandability. The WitP engine probably could be expanded a bit further, but I doubt really large changes would be possible.

Translating the game into Japanese probably is not possible. I strongly doubt the engine could be modified to support Kanji. I've looked into this on another project (there was a requirement to look into translating the software I was working on into Chinese). If the software isn't built from the ground up to accept Asian character sets, it's very, very difficult to do later.

Translating into another language that uses the Latin character set is not as big a task, but it would still be a lot of find and replace work. On a program like WitP, that could mean 50,000 changes pretty easily.

Sorry, just the realities of the software/game business.

Bill



Numdydar -> RE: your dreams about witp 2 :) (12/23/2013 6:13:33 AM)

My guess is that if War in the West '43-45 sold really well, then the same with WitE 2.0, along with the expansion plans to involve the entire ETO to again sell beyond expectations, then, and just maybe, a WitP 2.0 MIGHT be considered. I have no idea who is the owner of record for the IP rights to AE, but NOTHING can be done without those parties approval. Depending on how complex the IP rights might be, it would be much easier to just create a new version of WitP from scratch. Plus if tied into the ETO somehow, the scale and time scale would need to match up too. Which is something the existing engine cannot do.

So if anyone here has $500K+ lying around and really wants a 2.0 version, I'm sure someone would be more than willing to allow the project to move forward [:)] With that investment and selling at $300 per game, you might actually make a couple of thousand lol.



Blind Sniper -> RE: your dreams about witp 2 :) (12/23/2013 8:44:19 AM)

quote:

I'm sure someone would be more than willing to allow the project to move forward With that investment and selling at $300 per game, you might actually make a couple of thousand lol.


Maybe it would not be enough anyway. As wdolson points out, a new WITP rewriting would require several programmers full time and surely it would be a very long and not easy task to complete.
Almost impossible to hope in a new game...[:(]



wdolson -> RE: your dreams about witp 2 :) (12/23/2013 9:05:10 AM)

It might not cost as much as $500K, but it wouldn't be cheap.

It is Christmas time and it is that time of year kids write letters to Santa. Might as well dream.

Bill



PaxMondo -> RE: your dreams about witp 2 :) (12/23/2013 12:37:28 PM)

For timeframe for a new engine, just look at WIF ... single, dedicated programmer, complex engine/game...



PaxMondo -> RE: your dreams about witp 2 :) (12/23/2013 3:19:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

You know, and please nobody hate me too much, but I really am quite happy with the game as is. Sometimes I will get a bit perturbed with some facet, but never for long. Sitting here now, I find myself quite happy with the game as is ... particularly with John, Andy, and Michael all still actively contributing and most of the rest of the devs lurking in the back ground.


[&o][&o][&o]






You suck up!

I bet you were the kid who always told the teacher what a great job they were doing and how much you liked them!

[:D]

Regards,
Feltan

Nope, I was the one that was making N2O in the chemistry lab, built my first still when I was 13 (for fuel, not beveraging!), drove my first USAC race when I was 14... I'm pretty sure there were a lot of people who were quite happy (and relieved) when I left the valley.



Blind Sniper -> RE: your dreams about witp 2 :) (12/23/2013 3:40:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

For timeframe for a new engine, just look at WIF ... single, dedicated programmer, complex engine/game...


I don't think he was totally dedicated on WiF but I agree with the point, no plausible.
Of course I hope to be wrong [:)]



Numdydar -> RE: your dreams about witp 2 :) (12/23/2013 4:03:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

For timeframe for a new engine, just look at WIF ... single, dedicated programmer, complex engine/game...


Sounds just like World in Flames [:D]

So if someone starts now on WitP 2.0, then 8-10 years from now it will be ready lol.

Remember GG released Pacific War in 1992 which laid the foundations for WitP which came out in 2004. So plan accordingly [:)] Of course he was working on several games at the same time so some time could be shaved off by just working on WitP 2.0 full time.



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