RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (Full Version)

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larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/25/2014 5:49:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: frankieITA
Those are the same problems I faced im my previous game: slow crawling advance on the western side,
little to no advance in the middle or eastern side.

I have a faulty memory but I seem to remember Steve saying he designed the scenario to be this
way on purpose. He said, I think, that the game advance is way way faster than historical and
this lack of supply thing is to force the scenario to give a more historical advance. It's
working as far as I can see. The effect on the player is frustration however, because every
once in a while an opportunity will arise and the player will be unable to take advantage of it.
EDIT: I found a way to get around this little problem. For the past four turns now I've moved
only the RR engineers and lengthened the supply rail closer to the front to raise the supply level
in the front line areas. It seems to be working so far. Another benefit from this is that the
readiness of the supply-poor units rises by not being moved and not attacking.

quote:

ORIGINAL: frankieITA
When I decided to assault on the east I got tremendous losses, like ruining two infantry divisions,
one armored in reorg (New Zealand Div. for me is counting as Armoured Div.) and two armoured
brigades destroyed; as I stated before I started the attacks on the eastern side of the line
and Elmer reacted ordering a Panzer counterattack on the near poor Polish troops. They kept
coming for two consecutive turns, they kind of succeded keeping me at bay and at the third
turn they retreated the whole line keeping two regiments as retroguard.
Keep attacking and they'll give up eventually.

Using the hexes of the Gustav Line ( and the Gothic Line ) where they are 100% entrenched
Elmer has excellent defenses and assaulting them is costly like you've documented. I've
decided that I'm going to try to get some units around behind most of them before I try
to assault the dug in defenders and that theory is slowing down the advance I must say.
But like you said Elmer has ways of plugging any holes I might make.

quote:

ORIGINAL: frankieITA
I see you have the US units really spread up along the width of most of the peninsula.
Since I was waaaaay more concentrated and felt I needed way more divisions for the
Americans, aren't you having problems of lack of regiments?

Yes, as a matter of fact I do feel the need for more regiments. I used the units at
the time where they were needed most without reguard for formation integrity and it
shows. It's time for me to get better organized if possible. Fortunately most
formations are on force support instead of something more restrictive so I can get
away with this sort of tactic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: frankieITA
I see also you're using Canadians and New Zealanders linked to the US units, maybe
they're better fit as you use them instead of historically attaching them to the British.

See my quote above about using units at the time where they are needed most. I'm getting
to the point, however, where I'm trying to get organized better and I'm replacing units
on the front line to move them to where the rest of the formation is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: frankieITA
Also a question for sPzAbt653: I don't want to spoiler Larry the challenges that are to come,
but there's a way to make Elmer do a Mobile Defence on the Padan Plains(the zone between Gothic
line and the Alps)? He seems like giving up the whole theatre of operations after he loses
Gothic line!

I'd like to know the answer to this one myself.




sPzAbt653 -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/25/2014 6:34:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruppich
Looks like elmer does not like to dig in [&:]

Wow, I hadn't even noticed that. Good catch. [&o]

Its not Elmer, its me. I had to choose the lesser of two evils.

You probably have your scenario designer hat on when you say that but I'm curious.......what were your choices and what was your
thought process?
Enquiring minds want to know.


Well, now that you know 50% of the equation (that Elmer won't always dig in), revealing the other 50% might unravel the good work we've done here getting the PO to do a respectable job. As a trade off, I'll give you the following post which contains different but otherwise good intel.




sPzAbt653 -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/25/2014 6:42:40 PM)

quote:

I don't want to spoiler Larry the challenges that are to come, but there's a way to make Elmer do a Mobile Defence on the Padan Plains(the zone between Gothic line and the Alps)? He seems like giving up the whole theatre of operations after he loses Gothic line!


Since you guys have been so much help, and as it seems we could be getting near the end of modifying this scenario, I'll answer that one with this picture.

It's a little technical, but the PO has 5 possible Tracks, which can be thought of as different courses of action. We used to have only 3, but Ralph gave us two more. I believe for future consideration, we should have many more. (I hear Ralph groaning).
The more Tracks, the more flexible Elmer can be.

So, with the 5 Tracks we have to work with, you can now easily see Elmer's overall strategy. With all 5 in use, there was no room for a Padan Plains scheme of operations.

[image]local://upfiles/24850/281C689CC11B4D41A05E5545FACB8B99.jpg[/image]




larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/25/2014 10:27:53 PM)

I turned on the PO assist buttons and clicked on the "display all tracks" and got this picture. I'm not sure I could gleen any intel out of
that picture so I'm still clueless about Elmer I guess.

[image]local://upfiles/16287/0F1C164502E14A18AC8E0C3E7089CCA7.gif[/image]




larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/25/2014 10:33:43 PM)

It's currently the Allied turn and I have moved a couple of units already and now I've come to another unit that evidently has a Track
made up for it by Elmer. I am supposing that if I clicked on the Elmer moves button my unit will attempt to pursue that track.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

By the way, how do you turn off the PO mode?

[image]local://upfiles/16287/BA029312D1C742B5BAA376A0AA9B2B14.gif[/image]




Oberst_Klink -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/25/2014 10:39:39 PM)

I'd try my luck as Axis in Sicily against you, Onkel Larry. Would be interesting with 3XBb.exe to challenge you ole'boy.

Klink, Oberst




larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/25/2014 11:40:36 PM)

Hey Stefan: I sent you the PBEM game's opening moves just now. You should have it already.

So fair readers........it's looking like we have a PBEM game on our hands. This should be interesting.

[image]local://upfiles/16287/1A787A9910E445328BCC057098B1E6F5.gif[/image]




larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/25/2014 11:44:08 PM)

I'm posting my opening moves here in case anybody wants to watch the playback. Just remove the dot txt from the filename and unzip it.




larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/25/2014 11:49:49 PM)

Here's what Sicily looks like now. All the units are expanding away from the water and trying to forge a beachead and make a buffer to
fall back if need be. Next turn will see the introduction of some more reinforcements and we'll try to put them to good use.

[image]local://upfiles/16287/2581DAB1EB034B4E9146D3E47239CABC.gif[/image]




sPzAbt653 -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/26/2014 1:02:50 AM)

Kind sirs, please note this is not a pbem scenario. Rest assured I am working on the German vs. PO and Pbem versions, but they are not ready for prime time yet.

Any attempt to play the German side with this version will probably result in harsh critism and stone throwing, as I have done things to make Elmer better that a human would not like. [:(]

[image]local://upfiles/24850/7ECE28A899754229AAB1D8BEE39CB2EE.jpg[/image]




sPzAbt653 -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/26/2014 1:07:52 AM)

quote:

By the way, how do you turn off the PO mode?


The same way you turned it on - in the Player Options menu ??

quote:

I'm not sure I could gleen any intel out of that picture so I'm still clueless about Elmer I guess.


Well, its not for intel, its for causing mass confusion if you look at it ! But, the idea is, if you want the computer to run some or all of your moves, you can change those objectives and watch the ensuing fun. By clicking on 'show all' it might help you with planning.




sPzAbt653 -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/26/2014 1:11:39 AM)

quote:

I'd try my luck as Axis in Sicily against you, Onkel Larry. Klink, Oberst


quote:

Hey Stefan: I sent you the PBEM game's opening moves


Maybe I'm missing something, apologies if I am, but Klink is not Stefan.




larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/26/2014 2:01:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
quote:

I'd try my luck as Axis in Sicily against you, Onkel Larry. Klink, Oberst

quote:

Hey Stefan: I sent you the PBEM game's opening moves

Maybe I'm missing something, apologies if I am, but Klink is not Stefan.

OOOoooops. My bad. I have a memory stick that's going faulty in the RAM in my head. He's Klaus of course. D'oh. Anyway, the
file is on the way to Klaus now.




larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/26/2014 2:30:03 AM)

quote:

Kind sirs, please note this is not a pbem scenario. Rest assured I am working on the German vs. PO and Pbem versions, but they are not ready for prime time yet.

Any attempt to play the German side with this version will probably result in harsh critism and stone throwing, as I have done things to make Elmer better that a human would not like.

Well. Time for me to come clean w/ you Steve. I was getting bored w/ the scenario as it was more or less the same as my other trips up
the peninsula. The idea of playing a PBEM game of this sounded like a gift from God. And, I'm just guessing here, you might be able
to use the data from our PBEM game to glean ideas for future changes. Klaus will promise not to criticize too roughly. I'm sure he will.




sPzAbt653 -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/26/2014 6:31:45 PM)

v2.5 now posted at http://www.dizium.net/TOAW

Just two small changes. Allied Sea Transport reduced from the monster value that it was down to what they actually had enough for at the time.

Anzio is Excluded as an invasion area until shortly after Naples is captured by the Allies. This is because the Allies wouldn't have landed at Anzio until after they had captured airbases to cover the landing area, and that meant they had to be in the Naples area. Judging by the playtests so far, I don't think this will have any effect on the scenario. I felt like it should be done to prevent a player from going from Messina to Anzio unrealisticaly.

Thanks guys. [sm=00000436.gif]




larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/26/2014 7:01:42 PM)

Oh no.......now I can't get a wild hair and invade Anzio just for grins and giggles. I'll have to play it more realistically.

EDIT: Klaus and I have decided to start over and use v 2.5 for our PBEM game.

[image]local://upfiles/16287/E3B0FA325A8047AC903DACA0EEAB8020.gif[/image]




larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/26/2014 9:46:30 PM)

Okie Dokie.........I've received some moves from Klaus and this is the picture I see right after the playback quits. During the playback I
saw a bunch of German units moving toward Messina but I'm pretty sure that Klaus has left some rearguards to slow me down.

[image]local://upfiles/16287/83DC3284E3414F43BE6BC19876654D6E.gif[/image]




larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/26/2014 10:37:08 PM)

Here's the positions at the end of turn 2:

Klaus has a lot of units headed toward Messina. I'm thinking he's going to hunker down and defend Messina and let the rest of the island
go. OR he's going to evacuate units from the island to the mainland.

[image]local://upfiles/16287/41A68B8F1E244A31974E149233C7C907.gif[/image]




Petey -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/26/2014 11:21:34 PM)

OK, I'm still grinding up the boot. Germans are putting up very stiff resistance at the Gothic Line. That plus all the unit withdrawals are starting to hurt. Very little progress on the Western 3/4 of the line. I am beginning to advance with the Commonwealth forces concentrated on the Eastern end of the line. I'll use them to unhinge the Western side. Doubt if I could break through in the West without that. Here is a semi-strategic picture of where I am.

[image]local://upfiles/45526/A35C8B81F1E2417EB3DCF2EEF1209F6C.gif[/image]




larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/27/2014 1:59:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Petey
OK, I'm still grinding up the boot. Germans are putting up very stiff resistance at the Gothic Line. That plus all the unit withdrawals are starting to hurt. Very little progress on the Western 3/4 of the line. I am beginning to advance with the Commonwealth forces concentrated on the Eastern end of the line. I'll use them to unhinge the Western side. Doubt if I could break through in the West without that. Here is a semi-strategic picture of where I am.

That's very much like what I was doing. This scenario seems to favor the same moves by the Allies. Interesting.

I got some more moves from Klaus and this is what greets me:

[image]local://upfiles/16287/3F779C01282B4EEA95D466759212A7FF.gif[/image]




larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/27/2014 2:37:58 AM)

Here's what it looks like after my moves. It seems that the battle is going to be waged mostly in the NE corner of the island.

[image]local://upfiles/16287/E8FBBB2ED594405EAE30D29C6A8B6071.gif[/image]




larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/27/2014 4:56:32 AM)

Here's where everybody is at the end of T5. The front line is getting longer and longer. I've already run out of units so I'll have to refuse
my flank, my left flank, if he manufactures some more units and it looks like I'm going to get outflanked.

[image]local://upfiles/16287/51232328E1C345A0A1F423E438AE0436.gif[/image]




Petey -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/28/2014 2:14:04 AM)

Ok Turn 144 and I'm finished. Just a little bit of mop up left, but I've finished turn scenario with a strategic victory. Great game, lot's of fun. Here is the strategic situation:

[image]local://upfiles/45526/0C9DB9678B624F308720EB894810FDFA.gif[/image]




larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/28/2014 3:11:55 AM)

Turn 144 and you're finished ALREADY. That's amazing. Way to go dude. What are
you going to play now?




sPzAbt653 -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/28/2014 8:33:16 AM)

Thanks for the input Petey. The scenario goes to t191, but I don't expect anyone to take that long, but this in 144 turns is good. You haven't actually broken the last line and reached the Brenner Pass though. Can you maybe post a shot of the current victory level ?

The Allies had several 3 month pauses as they advanced up the boot, to reorganise, get supplies, and try to get thru the various defensive lines. I don't want to build those into the scenario by using cease fires, who would want to play that? So instead, we can expect to beat the 191 turn thing fairly easily.

One day if I have enough time to play this several times I would like to build in VP's for getting thru sooner than t191. But, I might forgo that if I can get Rick to make a new map, then I can do a whole new scenario at a smaller scale using all this experience to make a mini-monster scenario. [:D]




Petey -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/28/2014 1:37:08 PM)


Actually I'm going on a trip for a week+/- so I probably won't get a chance to play for a short while. After that I don't know what I'll play next. I will still be following your postings on a daily basis however.

quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

Turn 144 and you're finished ALREADY. That's amazing. Way to go dude. What are
you going to play now?





Petey -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/28/2014 1:39:48 PM)


Yes when I get a chance over the next few days I will post a shot of the victory level and my thoughts about the scenario. If I didn't have to travel I would have continued to play on.

Thanks again Steve!

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Thanks for the input Petey. The scenario goes to t191, but I don't expect anyone to take that long, but this in 144 turns is good. You haven't actually broken the last line and reached the Brenner Pass though. Can you maybe post a shot of the current victory level ?

The Allies had several 3 month pauses as they advanced up the boot, to reorganise, get supplies, and try to get thru the various defensive lines. I don't want to build those into the scenario by using cease fires, who would want to play that? So instead, we can expect to beat the 191 turn thing fairly easily.

One day if I have enough time to play this several times I would like to build in VP's for getting thru sooner than t191. But, I might forgo that if I can get Rick to make a new map, then I can do a whole new scenario at a smaller scale using all this experience to make a mini-monster scenario. [:D]





larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/28/2014 2:35:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson
Turn 144 and you're finished ALREADY. That's amazing. Way to go dude. What are
you going to play now?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Petey
Actually I'm going on a trip for a week+/- so I probably won't get a chance to play for a short while. After that I don't know what I'll play next. I will still be following your postings on a daily basis however.


Hey Petey....you might want to get into a PBEM game.....it's a lot more fun than fighting Elmer. Just a thought.




larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (2/28/2014 11:15:37 PM)

This is the positions of everybody at the end of T6. I'm trying to outflank Klaus on the NW end but the supply level there is really low
and the units I'm moving are already tired and almost out of ammo and Klaus seems to always have one more unit to put up on the line.
I don't have much of a reserve that isn't already committed somewhere so I'm going to have to strip the line to scrape enough units
together to make up a reserve. I'll probably need it before this is over. This looks to be a long term committment for the two of us. So
far so good.

[image]local://upfiles/16287/1928E838B9864BCCA67FA346B521416F.gif[/image]




larryfulkerson -> RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised (3/1/2014 12:50:02 AM)

Here's a zoom up of the front lines at the beginning of T7. German counterattacks were scary but didn't evaporate but one unit of mine.
I can't afford to lose units like that. There's precious few of them as it is. I've got some British units moving north in the middle of the
map and I intend to try to outflank Klaus on the westernmost end if possible. I'd hate to do this WWI-style.

[image]local://upfiles/16287/92BD1B4B663A4951B8A688AADE8C850E.gif[/image]




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