RE: ultradave vs scout1, '43-'45 Campaign Dec 23 1944 (Turn 78)

RE: ultradave vs scout1, '43-'45 Campaign Dec 23 1944 (Turn 78) (Full Version)

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ultradave -> RE: ultradave vs scout1, '43-'45 Campaign Dec 23 1944 (Turn 78) (4/27/2015 12:00:56 PM)
The V-weapon and UBoat points are probably due to a conscious decision on my part to ignore everything else in an attempt to break out of my invasion areas by bombing the ever-loving crap out of the units surrounding me and the rail lines leading in at the expense of some strategic bombing. It didn't work but it seemed worth a shot to try to soften up the line facing me.

ultradave -> RE: ultradave vs scout1, '43-'45 Campaign Dec 23 1944 (Turn 78) (4/28/2015 8:33:50 PM)
Expanded the beach head just south of Rome a little bit and brought in some more reinforcements. Going to be hard to kick us out of this one, but it appears there are some German reinforcements headed north from the Cassino line. He can still hold that line easily and spare units to contain this beach. So I need to try to break a hole pretty quickly. [image]local://upfiles/45914/05CC686B01244ACFA83D10F1208351F0.jpg[/image]

ultradave -> RE: ultradave vs scout1, '43-'45 Campaign Dec 23 1944 (Turn 78) (4/28/2015 8:36:00 PM)
Meanwhile, as the German turn was running and I happened to have it zoomed out looking at hex ownership, I notice the East Front front line changed. Grabbed a quick screen grab of it. Game turn is 87, Feb 24, 1945. The Russians are oh, so close to Berlin. With a little luck this misery will be done with in a few more weeks as Russian armor rolls into Berlin. [image]local://upfiles/45914/519713859CBE4BDEADF4C880E34094E3.jpg[/image]

ultradave -> RE: ultradave vs scout1, '43-'45 Campaign Dec 23 1944 (Turn 78) (5/2/2015 1:32:47 PM)
Eastern front moves ever closer to Berlin. We gain one hex in the Le Havre beachhead. Whoopee, but in this game, any gain at all is cause for celebration. Something actually happened. The snowy weather moderated just a little allowing better air support. Pounding the Germans facing the Le Havre area seems to have been slowly weakening them. Not slowly enough. At this rate though, the Russians will reach Berlin only just ahead of the historical dates, which seems too late considering the German's gutted the Eastern Front to fight in the west. So I'm not sure that there was a huge effect of me updating to the beta for Tunisia testing after all. Eastern Front Mar 3rd, '45 [image]local://upfiles/45914/65CC273290DD46C0B22C887EE8EC1230.jpg[/image]

Joel Billings -> RE: ultradave vs scout1, '43-'45 Campaign Dec 23 1944 (Turn 78) (5/2/2015 4:21:20 PM)
The biggest impact of the update wasn't on games where the Germans had already pulled out. It would be on games where the German player hadn't yet pulled units off the East Front. IIRC, the biggest hit was on all units in the East Front that remained when units were sent west. This is a one time hit, which then snowballs over time (in theory). The other impact was making sure that the morale hit was having an impact on artillery and flak units, which were not being impacted in the past. You might have seen a small drop in some artillery values in your game, but not enough to have a major impact. The idea is with the update, if the German player starts sending units west, then the remaining units will be much weaker, the artillery and AA units will now be hit along with the others, and those gun type units won't have as big of a CV value as before. We won't really know how much impact this has until someone tries it, but the value of this game for us was to see the baseline including if things progress any faster at the end given the situation in the east. I hope the Axis player is not sending units east in your game now because that would get a bigger bonus than what he lost when he took them out and impact the baseline. I appreciate your sticking it out this long, although you might be able to do this on autopilot now until the end since it doesn't look like you will make much progress. You and the German player could agree to leave things pretty much as they are and just end turns and see how it comes out, or just fight the air war until the end. IIRC the front line can move about 1-3 hexes per turn on average, so you can guestimate how many turns it will take to get to around 140 if you know where the front line is now.

ultradave -> RE: ultradave vs scout1, '43-'45 Campaign Dec 23 1944 (Turn 78) (5/2/2015 6:08:19 PM)
Gotcha. So that makes sense then that the Russians reach Berlin approximately on time. It's the air that takes up all the time in running turns for me. Maybe I'll just cancel the missions and we can agree to just leave things static on the front lines and just run it out until the Russians take Berlin. It looks like there are only 4 or 5 hexes to go to Berlin. Should have looked more close up at the hex possession. Hard to tell from the wide view. Not far in any case. Scott is not sending anything back east as far as I know. I'm sure he would have said something if he was.

scout1 -> RE: ultradave vs scout1, '43-'45 Campaign Dec 23 1944 (Turn 78) (5/2/2015 8:05:13 PM)
Absolutely nothing has gone back to the East Front ..... I would lose all the popularity I've gained with the common soldier if I did that ... Would you want to go back to the East Front ?

scout1 -> RE: ultradave vs scout1, '43-'45 Campaign Dec 23 1944 (Turn 78) (5/2/2015 8:06:31 PM)
outta curiosity ..... Does the game just end when Uncle Joe reaches the Brandenburg Gate ?

ultradave -> RE: ultradave vs scout1, '43-'45 Campaign Dec 23 1944 (Turn 78) (5/2/2015 8:43:38 PM)
Turn 90, March 17, 1945. Russians enter Berlin, advancing 5 hexes that turn. We'll see what happens next. Saved and uploaded for Scott. [image]local://upfiles/45914/59991BDFBC7E4B1B9E2501BA36F24E1C.jpg[/image]

marion61 -> RE: ultradave vs scout1, '43-'45 Campaign Dec 23 1944 (Turn 78) (5/2/2015 8:55:49 PM)
The Russian's have the victory hex. Why is the game not over?

scout1 -> RE: ultradave vs scout1, '43-'45 Campaign Dec 23 1944 (Turn 78) (5/2/2015 9:07:49 PM)
I believe that is all she wrote ........ Uncle Joe is smoking cigars at the Brandenburg Gate ...... [image]local://upfiles/13786/AE75219B41094931974451A3156AECBF.jpg[/image]

ultradave -> RE: ultradave vs scout1, '43-'45 Campaign Dec 23 1944 (Turn 78) (5/2/2015 9:26:15 PM)
Nothing happened on my end. Game saved and uploaded. After Scott reported game over.

marion61 -> RE: ultradave vs scout1, '43-'45 Campaign Dec 23 1944 (Turn 78) (5/2/2015 10:58:28 PM)
I have admired your sig. for awhile now, but I have a better one. Paul S. "When paratroopers go to sleep, they check the closet for combat controllers first!" [sm=00000622.gif]

ultradave -> RE: ultradave vs scout1, '43-'45 Campaign Dec 23 1944 (Turn 78) (5/3/2015 12:14:19 AM)
Yeah, without those guys we'd never know when to jump! I jumped one time - door man, very low clouds - VERY low. Jump master looked out, came back in said "I can't see $h1t sir!" Then the green light came on. He just shrugged and said "StandInTheDoorGO!" I went. That was the one time above all that I hoped everyone from the pilots to the CCT knew what the hell they were doing. Because I sure didn't. I just went. Turned out ok.

marion61 -> RE: ultradave vs scout1, '43-'45 Campaign Dec 23 1944 (Turn 78) (5/3/2015 12:30:55 AM)
Don't worry Dave, even if they didn't know what they were doing they would act like they did, as you auger into the ground.[8D]

Q-Ball -> RE: ultradave vs scout1, '43-'45 Campaign Dec 23 1944 (Turn 78) (5/3/2015 2:43:18 PM)
It's too bad, because this game was probably trashed once Scout moved all Panzers to the West. It's really a "Decisive Soviet Victory", because the Iron Curtain is now on the Rhine. Welcome to the People's Republic of Belgium, Comrades! The only takeaway here is "don't abuse the EF Box"

ultradave -> RE: ultradave vs scout1, '43-'45 Campaign Dec 23 1944 (Turn 78) (5/3/2015 5:28:33 PM)
The entire WA armies became a diversion to occupy the Germans to that Russia could roll. They did not get to Berlin much ahead of schedule, however, there isn't much to stop them from rolling to the Rhine, as you say.

Joel Billings -> RE: ultradave vs scout1, '43-'45 Campaign Dec 23 1944 (Turn 78) (5/3/2015 7:19:35 PM)
Thanks for finishing the game. It went fast at the end, and I'm glad to see that the game ended early. That's before the changes we've made, so it should end even earlier if this was run again. There was a 539 early end bonus for the Allies for having ended 7 weeks early. This may have been asked before, but why did the Allies get 4000 garrison points? Did the German player intentionally ignore the garrison rules, or was he unaware of the rule, or was this before some of the changes that made it harder to be surprised by a sudden garrison change? If he intentionally ignored the rules, then he clearly lost. We considered adding in a rule that the German player would be sacked and lose if the score ever got too large. We never got around to doing that, but it would have ended this game early as an Allied victory due to German player getting relieved.

scout1 -> RE: ultradave vs scout1, '43-'45 Campaign Dec 23 1944 (Turn 78) (5/3/2015 9:10:04 PM)
The Axis player was just learning first game relative to garrison rules .... and doing badly .....

scout1 -> RE: ultradave vs scout1, '43-'45 Campaign Dec 23 1944 (Turn 78) (5/3/2015 9:12:51 PM)
Flip side is we have a game going w/o EF on .... for some strange reason I have 7000pts (Allied) and other than garrison, I have no idea why .... Garrison pts starting to seem way too aggressive

LiquidSky -> RE: ultradave vs scout1, '43-'45 Campaign Dec 23 1944 (Turn 78) (5/4/2015 3:33:10 AM)
Garrison points are supposed to be aggressive. You must obey them. They aren't really aren't supposed to impact the score... It is to avoid 'fixing' units on the map. This way you can trade out different units and still hold a garrison. I would almost argue that the garrison is somewhat pointless as the Germans have to defend a rather large area anyways..but it is a good way for them to pick up a few vp's if the allies are turtling too long.

Joel Billings -> RE: ultradave vs scout1, '43-'45 Campaign Dec 23 1944 (Turn 78) (5/4/2015 4:19:58 PM)
Exactly right, you really must follow the garrison rules. This is why we fixed the issues brought up where the garrison values changed suddenly and in a way that the German player could not react in time to avoid a big penalty. You shouldn't be surprised by the requirements as they change over time and you have to account for them.

scout1 -> RE: ultradave vs scout1, '43-'45 Campaign Dec 23 1944 (Turn 78) (5/4/2015 9:51:51 PM)
I think I've phrased my concern poorly ..... Let me try again .... My (potential) concern is the amount of VP's which accumulate relative to not meeting the garrison requirement. If you use this particular AAR game as an example. Was Dave's and my first attempt and as you know I shameless stole from the EF ....... basically shutting down any progress for Dave (Allies). I did struggle early on relative to the garrison requirement mostly out of ignorance ...... But finally recovered once I understood how ...... From a VP standpoint which provided Dave a Decisive victory (and I'm not concerned about losing .... done it before), a HUGE share of the final VP total is directly attributable to the Garrison VP's ..... We have a second game w/o EF and this time I'm the Allies ..... Is Apr 1944 and the VP total is over 7000 pts ..... Again, a huge portion of the VP's are attributable to the garrison portion of the roll up ...... Just seems to be a HUGE VP swinger in the overall VP total ......

marion61 -> RE: ultradave vs scout1, '43-'45 Campaign Dec 23 1944 (Turn 78) (5/4/2015 10:12:40 PM)
It's meant to be harsh so people will keep their garrisons in line. If you pull every unit on the map to use in Italy, the allies won't make much progress, but then they won't need to since they're piling up garrison points. Plus the garrisons help you to prepare for the future invasions. If you pull all units to Italy to fight, then you won't have much left if he decides to invade somewhere else. Another thing the garrisons do is to help you with units manpower later on. If your throwing all your units into combat in 43, then your manpower crunch will hit way early. Honestly it's just better for you as the axis to manage your garrisons so you don't get bit. There's really only three times when you have a garrison crisis and you should prepare for them. One is in Sept 43 when new garrison values change, and another at the end of Oct 43, start of Nov 43 when the TOE's change. The last time is in the spring as your garrison cities change. Garrisons are like a small EF box until the main invasion hits France.

carlkay58 -> RE: ultradave vs scout1, '43-'45 Campaign Dec 23 1944 (Turn 78) (5/5/2015 11:58:30 PM)
The current problem with the EF Box is that, while it is the largest garrison in the game for the Axis, it has the least visible or immediate garrison penalties of any of the garrisons. It is so easy to pull units from the EF Box and send them West to crush the Western Allies without an apparent or readily visible penalty that both the Axis and Allied players see no penalty at all. But let the Axis player take a single unit from another garrison and WHAM! huge amounts of VPs are awarded to the Western Allies immediately.

Joel Billings -> RE: ultradave vs scout1, '43-'45 Campaign Dec 23 1944 (Turn 78) (5/6/2015 4:13:09 PM)
The impact should be greater now when units are pulled off the east front, although it's still a long term impact and not VPs right away that would get you fired if we had that built into the game. Having required garrisons in the west is as much about trying to offset 20/20 hindsight re things the Germans just didn't know during the war (like exactly what the amphib capabilities and limitations were for the Allies). So we believe we needed to impose some garrison restrictions from above as the Germans don't gain as much benefit by keeping them static building forts, etc. as moving them to stuff the Med. This is what the big VP penalties for not complying are all about.

ultradave -> RE: ultradave vs scout1, '43-'45 Campaign Dec 23 1944 (Turn 78) (5/6/2015 5:21:31 PM)
I think I've figured out my big mistake in the other game. I had not looked at the garrisons for some time. I knew that Bordeaux was 1 combat point short and had moved a unit there to fix that but then forgot to get off the train. But the big problem was Belgium, where I had garrisoned Brussels. Only I didn't. I moved them to Antwerp by accident. I thought the end of turn messages were about Bordeaux and kept forgetting to fix that or clicked no and then said "oops". But the Belgian partisans may have been wreaking havoc while I was not paying attention and not realizing it would entail such a penalty. I have the units scattered around to account for garrisons, but have dorked up the implementation. Totally my fault, and lesson learned, as my first campaign as the German player, to pay more attention to garrison requirements.

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