RE: Manila Falls

RE: Manila Falls (Full Version)

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Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Manila Falls (1/11/2016 3:22:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe What am I missing? How can I possibly take Portland. Look at all the rail junctions. Everything x2 terrain. CD guns and mines. I don't have Alfred's subtlety. [:)] There is no base on the WC at the end of 1942 that is easy. All will be fortified, all will have some CD (major bases), all majors will be mined with ACMs. All trigger the ER package. I have always thought you were being too cute by half with the paras and cutting strat movement. The key to a Dec. 1942 assault is simple--overwhelm him fast and furious, destroy what the target has industry-wise and shipbuilding-queue-wise, and hope for auto-vic. Write off the landing force more or less. Assume losses to mines and CD. If you can smash, grab, and leave with some of the LCUs, great. But you can re-build them. You can't re-build capital ships. If that equation isn't appealing then you might not want to attack the WC over a year in. It was impossible in RL. In the game it ought to be nearly so. Alfred's point about the northern approach direction is calculated to help you get ashore with some surprise. The rest is just a bloodbath. Going for SD greatly increases the risk of inbound detection and several days' prep time for the Allies.

witpqs -> RE: Manila Falls (1/11/2016 3:46:56 PM)
This: quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 I have always thought you were being too cute by half with the paras and cutting strat movement. The key to a Dec. 1942 assault is simple--overwhelm him fast and furious, destroy what the target has industry-wise and shipbuilding-queue-wise, and hope for auto-vic. Write off the landing force more or less. Assume losses to mines and CD. Cutting strat movement is a fine concept, but pausing to take bases for the paras to fly from, bring in paras, bring in planes, maybe even build said bases - you left the barn door open way too long. The horses were not been briefed on your plan so they have left already. YMMV.

Lokasenna -> RE: Manila Falls (1/11/2016 4:34:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs This: quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 I have always thought you were being too cute by half with the paras and cutting strat movement. The key to a Dec. 1942 assault is simple--overwhelm him fast and furious, destroy what the target has industry-wise and shipbuilding-queue-wise, and hope for auto-vic. Write off the landing force more or less. Assume losses to mines and CD. Cutting strat movement is a fine concept, but pausing to take bases for the paras to fly from, bring in paras, bring in planes, maybe even build said bases - you left the barn door open way too long. The horses were not been briefed on your plan so they have left already. YMMV. This is exactly why I said you can't land at the islands outside San Diego first. Have to land directly at the base outside Los Angeles, and if you're detected more than 2 days out, it's just not going to happen - and there goes an entire year's worth of preparation. RE: Portland - Pendleton and Corvallis would cut rail links from the south, at least without massive detours. Landing at Tillamook (and/or Astoria) and walking to Portland might be feasible. I also think the reward is far greater in terms of the shipbuilding haul. Cutting the rail at Tacoma probably can't happen as you can't land there. You may not need to cut it in any case. If you can take Astoria the day after landing (unlikely), then you could sail directly to Portland for a landing without worrying about the CD guns. You might be able to risk sailing past the CD guns if you land at Astoria first - you can count on partial disablement within that unit. This is still not something I would attempt. I'm just trying to see options.

Lowpe -> RE: Manila Falls (1/11/2016 5:08:09 PM)
Thanks for all your feedback.... Here is the rough plan. I am not sure where all the fixation came with the para landings. Goal...destroy San Diego and leave. Pre day 1 demonstrate up north with follow on landing forces, which will steam to San Diego once the cat is out of the bag. Day 1 landings will occur all along the coast and the islands. Goal is to take islands, which are all Port 1 btw, and cut the rail line to San Diego. Unfortunately, this isn't the map we are playing on, but bear with me it is close enough to understand my intent. Day 2: hopefully take something on the west coast, move into defendable blocking terrain of LA and the mtns. I don't need to win these hexes, that would be gravy, I just need to hold them. Day 3: Paratroops will most likely be able to fly and establish a blocking position, but I am not relying up on it. I am relying upon getting into LA and the good terrain. Note, again, I am not trying to win LA, but defend the perimeter there. Day 4+ move to defend perimeter and destroy San Diego. Ship & kb reloads at the islands. San Diego falls...evacuate as much as I can. [image]local://upfiles/44178/E0D86641704940279A096D1FDE2B2A73.jpg[/image]

witpqs -> RE: Manila Falls (1/11/2016 5:14:27 PM)
Are you planning to drop the paras from flying boats, then?

Lowpe -> RE: Manila Falls (1/11/2016 5:57:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs Are you planning to drop the paras from flying boats, then? Correct, although I might have the opportunity to do otherwise, and I am planning for that opportunity too.

Lowpe -> RE: Manila Falls (1/11/2016 6:06:39 PM)
The correct map. Camp Pendelton has no port....it is my experience when players see no port symbol, they believe landings cannot occur there. I have not sand boxed it, but believe a landing there is totally possible. [image]local://upfiles/44178/C56C07401EB24CFF88F5DE33F2F984B9.jpg[/image]

Lowpe -> RE: Manila Falls (1/11/2016 6:21:31 PM)
I have not finished the turn yet, a little WITP AE clicking burnout today.[:(] & I don't want to make any silly mistakes like happened with my destroyer task force the other day. I dropped Jocke the replay and text report so that he can curse I32. He loves to moan about what lousy luck he has against Iboats.[:D]

Lokasenna -> RE: Manila Falls (1/11/2016 6:58:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe The correct map. Camp Pendelton has no port....it is my experience when players see no port symbol, they believe landings cannot occur there. I have not sand boxed it, but believe a landing there is totally possible. [image]local://upfiles/44178/C56C07401EB24CFF88F5DE33F2F984B9.jpg[/image] If ships can get into a hex, then it can be landed at. I have some kind of DB/map bug in one of my games where Terapo has no port (and can't be built), but I landed there via amphibious TF.

witpqs -> RE: Manila Falls (1/11/2016 6:59:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lokasenna quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe The correct map. Camp Pendelton has no port....it is my experience when players see no port symbol, they believe landings cannot occur there. I have not sand boxed it, but believe a landing there is totally possible. [image]local://upfiles/44178/C56C07401EB24CFF88F5DE33F2F984B9.jpg[/image] If ships can get into a hex, then it can be landed at. I have some kind of DB/map bug in one of my games where Terapo has no port (and can't be built), but I landed there via amphibious TF. Swamp terrain cannot be landed on, IIRC.

Lecivius -> RE: Manila Falls (1/11/2016 7:08:50 PM)
Have you looked at the initial layout of the allies west coast at game start?

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Manila Falls (1/11/2016 8:22:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lokasenna RE: Portland - Pendleton and Corvallis would cut rail links from the south, at least without massive detours. Landing at Tillamook (and/or Astoria) and walking to Portland might be feasible. I also think the reward is far greater in terms of the shipbuilding haul. I looked at a stock Scen 1. The Allies, all navies, get 90 CVEs in a stock game. 46 of them arrive at Portland after 1/1/43. So far as I recall all with air wings.

Lokasenna -> RE: Manila Falls (1/11/2016 9:29:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs quote: ORIGINAL: Lokasenna quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe The correct map. Camp Pendelton has no port....it is my experience when players see no port symbol, they believe landings cannot occur there. I have not sand boxed it, but believe a landing there is totally possible. [image]local://upfiles/44178/C56C07401EB24CFF88F5DE33F2F984B9.jpg[/image] If ships can get into a hex, then it can be landed at. I have some kind of DB/map bug in one of my games where Terapo has no port (and can't be built), but I landed there via amphibious TF. Swamp terrain cannot be landed on, IIRC. I definitely landed there. (to my recollection...maybe I'm getting senile about 5 decades early) quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 quote: ORIGINAL: Lokasenna RE: Portland - Pendleton and Corvallis would cut rail links from the south, at least without massive detours. Landing at Tillamook (and/or Astoria) and walking to Portland might be feasible. I also think the reward is far greater in terms of the shipbuilding haul. I looked at a stock Scen 1. The Allies, all navies, get 90 CVEs in a stock game. 46 of them arrive at Portland after 1/1/43. So far as I recall all with air wings. Yes, with air wings. Unsure what that would mean for VPs. 46 CVEs would net what, around 2000 permanent VPs? (assuming CVEs are worth about 90 VPs standard)

Lowpe -> RE: Manila Falls (1/11/2016 10:16:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lecivius Have you looked at the initial layout of the allies west coast at game start? Yes.

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Manila Falls (1/12/2016 12:13:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lokasenna Yes, with air wings. Unsure what that would mean for VPs. 46 CVEs would net what, around 2000 permanent VPs? (assuming CVEs are worth about 90 VPs standard) The two you've sunk were 93 and 84 for the hull. I think 93 is more normal for the balance. The air wings are 27-28 VP per hull if fully fleshed. Don't know how a queue cancel works for those. For me it's a lot less about the VPs and far more about losing 46 CVEs and the operational flexibility they provide for anything island-related. Without them your fleet carriers or CVLs have to be along for EVERYTHING.

Lokasenna -> RE: Manila Falls (1/12/2016 5:20:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 quote: ORIGINAL: Lokasenna Yes, with air wings. Unsure what that would mean for VPs. 46 CVEs would net what, around 2000 permanent VPs? (assuming CVEs are worth about 90 VPs standard) The two you've sunk were 93 and 84 for the hull. I think 93 is more normal for the balance. The air wings are 27-28 VP per hull if fully fleshed. Don't know how a queue cancel works for those. For me it's a lot less about the VPs and far more about losing 46 CVEs and the operational flexibility they provide for anything island-related. Without them your fleet carriers or CVLs have to be along for EVERYTHING. Yeah. Forget about it possibly triggering autovictory. What it does to the naval advance for the Allies would be crippling. That isn't directly measured in points, but it would have an enormous impact. And then there all the xAKs and TKs...

Mahrgell -> RE: Manila Falls (1/12/2016 1:16:26 PM)
just did a quick count: '43+ Portland produces: - 46 CVE (87 VP) - 79 TK (31 VP) - 10 APA (26 VP) - 3 AKA (22 VP) - 202 xAK (160x13 + 42x14 VP) - 5 AK (12 VP) - 25 LST (3 VP) - 1 AM (3 VP) - 43 SC (2 VP) for overall 414 ships worth 9669 VP (or 4834 VP if you cancel them) Also I mentioned it earlier... By default neither Astoria nor Portland are mined. Nor does Portland have CD. It may be worth checking if it is mined now. If not, then rushing through the CD of Astoria straight into Portland should be possible.

Lokasenna -> RE: Manila Falls (1/12/2016 2:07:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mahrgell just did a quick count: '43+ Portland produces: - 46 CVE (87 VP) - 79 TK (31 VP) - 10 APA (26 VP) - 3 AKA (22 VP) - 202 xAK (160x13 + 42x14 VP) - 5 AK (12 VP) - 25 LST (3 VP) - 1 AM (3 VP) - 43 SC (2 VP) for overall 414 ships worth 9669 VP (or 4834 VP if you cancel them) Also I mentioned it earlier... By default neither Astoria nor Portland are mined. Nor does Portland have CD. It may be worth checking if it is mined now. If not, then rushing through the CD of Astoria straight into Portland should be possible. Maybe, if you bombard the coastal guns at Astoria first. In one of my stock games it's "only" 8 6-inch guns and 2 10-inch guns, plus 8 12-inch mortars (interesting?)... and 4 90mm's. Those would wreck transiting merchants. Really have to bombard them first and time your movement such that the merchants pass through during the second movement phase while the guns are disrupted.

Anthro03 -> RE: Manila Falls (1/12/2016 2:23:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mahrgell just did a quick count: '43+ Portland produces: - 46 CVE (87 VP) - 79 TK (31 VP) - 10 APA (26 VP) - 3 AKA (22 VP) - 202 xAK (160x13 + 42x14 VP) - 5 AK (12 VP) - 25 LST (3 VP) - 1 AM (3 VP) - 43 SC (2 VP) for overall 414 ships worth 9669 VP (or 4834 VP if you cancel them) Also I mentioned it earlier... By default neither Astoria nor Portland are mined. Nor does Portland have CD. It may be worth checking if it is mined now. If not, then rushing through the CD of Astoria straight into Portland should be possible. I assume that would put a serious crimp in future amphibious operations. I didn't know Portland was so important to the war effort, I had a Grandmother who worked the shipyards there and carried a welding scar to the end of her days she would show with pride.

Lecivius -> RE: Manila Falls (1/12/2016 2:42:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe quote: ORIGINAL: Lecivius Have you looked at the initial layout of the allies west coast at game start? Yes. I'll bet a beer you won't take the 2 in the middle to the right of Bakersfield with Para's, if that is your intention (and I think it is if I read this right). I'm at work, I can't remember the game names off the top of my head. And you won't take Fresno, either. Vegas and Bakersfield you will probably seize, depending on his allocation, if any. You have a 10-12 day window before his left hook, that is already in this screen you have provided at this time in the game, turns out your lights. Just sayin [;)] I'm an AFB, and I'm probably wrong (seems like I am a lot anymore [:'(] ) I am really looking forward to how this goes! Good luck man!

Lowpe -> RE: Manila Falls (1/12/2016 4:10:54 PM)
Great discussions on Portland strategies![&o][sm=happy0065.gif] Operations in northern China..the goal to link up with the northern spearhead. Not trying to destroy Chinese units, but to get them to retreat and suffer losses. Like the result here. [image]local://upfiles/44178/91290C49B7614131820500E976F178B1.jpg[/image]

Lowpe -> RE: Manila Falls (1/12/2016 4:14:43 PM)
Not sure why I got this result...[&:]; tough Chinese troops at Lanchow. [image]local://upfiles/44178/B72A65576B7640CD90F2343CEEE4DBD8.jpg[/image]

Lowpe -> RE: Manila Falls (1/12/2016 4:17:08 PM)
A new plane in service. Hard to quantify how important the Oscar IIb is, a big step up from Nates and Oscar Ib, Ic. [image]local://upfiles/44178/0DB50DD3A1F843E0995A0FF143B0F0B0.jpg[/image]

Lowpe -> RE: Manila Falls (1/12/2016 4:19:40 PM)
Portland... [image]local://upfiles/44178/3FBB7B4A1C474E7BAAE63B10E3048FB0.jpg[/image]

Lowpe -> RE: Manila Falls (1/12/2016 4:28:28 PM)
Sub encounters... [image]local://upfiles/44178/5B52F536C7F045429D4A7A199B8CC4AB.jpg[/image]

Lowpe -> RE: Manila Falls (1/12/2016 4:28:49 PM)
She might live... [image]local://upfiles/44178/69A3B1C1797246AE91DCDB7AFE390437.jpg[/image]

Lowpe -> RE: Manila Falls (1/12/2016 4:30:28 PM)
More Portland...stacking is 105K. [image]local://upfiles/44178/EF16B06951624A9F9B6F3F2A60E2D12D.jpg[/image]

Lokasenna -> RE: Manila Falls (1/12/2016 5:42:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe Not sure why I got this result...[&:]; tough Chinese troops at Lanchow. [image]local://upfiles/44178/B72A65576B7640CD90F2343CEEE4DBD8.jpg[/image] Because the Lanchow defenders will actually have supply, so are able to PEW-PEW you.

Lokasenna -> RE: Manila Falls (1/12/2016 5:43:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe She might live... [image]local://upfiles/44178/69A3B1C1797246AE91DCDB7AFE390437.jpg[/image] S-boat torpedoes are smaller/less explosive.

Lokasenna -> RE: Manila Falls (1/12/2016 5:43:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe Portland... [image]local://upfiles/44178/3FBB7B4A1C474E7BAAE63B10E3048FB0.jpg[/image] Looks like a bunch of base forces and probably engineers.

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