RE: SILLY's SWANSONG NO BRIAN G (Full Version)

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M60A3TTS -> RE: SILLY's SWANSONG NO BRIAN G (3/10/2016 8:19:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower
To belittle a major intelligence success of my security troops in this way is both misleading and defamatory. I suggest, nay insist, that you come to Berlin as my guest for appropriate re-education.


But you'll have to take "a shower" first.



sillyflower -> RE: SILLY's SWANSONG NO BRIAN G (3/11/2016 11:05:08 AM)

The losses reveal.

This is the figure at the start of my 4 Dec turn so covers soviet losses inc. T24 + german T25 attrition.

NB about 160K prisoners have become HIWIs in waiting so actual soviet losses in men are higher by that amount

[image]local://upfiles/35790/95CE0C18184A415A9290B097CDACBBD0.jpg[/image]



sillyflower -> RE: SILLY's SWANSONG NO BRIAN G (3/11/2016 11:11:37 AM)

unit losses to end T24

[image]local://upfiles/35790/AA320B934F334078BAB8FC6F38B9E424.jpg[/image]



sillyflower -> RE: SILLY's SWANSONG NO BRIAN G (3/11/2016 11:17:41 AM)

air end T24

[image]local://upfiles/35790/DDF09702217D4DAB8BA1189FF37804DB.jpg[/image]



sillyflower -> RE: SILLY's SWANSONG NO BRIAN G (3/11/2016 11:37:48 AM)

I have compared pre-blizzard losses with Russian OOB at the start of the german T1. I forgot to make a note of soviet air losses at the start of T25 so that figure is not exact.

Starting OOB

men 3.976M
arty 42,912
AFVs 17,772
air 6,895


Losses

men 3.741M (after putting HIWIs back)
arty 42,297
AFVs 22,053
air just under 14K

Factory losses:
85 arms
40 HI
26 vehicle

20BA10
12 SU2
20 Lagg 3 11 series
9 LI2 (ie all)
9 LI2 VV (all)
5 IL4
3 PE2R (half of all production)
5 PE3
23 IL10
72 Mig3 (which morph into IL2)


Losses in men and artillery are very close the starting figures - a bit over in men if you deduct those in HQs who are pretty immortal. AFVs well over. As for the red air force, they have had every plane wiped out twice. Brian clearly can't have any air force left, especially after I destroyed so many a/c factories [;)].



sillyflower -> RE: SILLY's SWANSONG NO BRIAN G (3/12/2016 11:47:26 AM)

The arms point crunch

At the end of turn 10 I posted that russian losses would take 1.240M arms points to replace.

I have ddone the same calcultation up to the end of T24 (the last snow turn) inc. the russian turn. A longet time interval, but it includes the 4 mud turns in which losses are far more limited.

The new number is 2,691,995 arms points to replace existing losses.

For the ubergeeks, the biggest losses are from

rifle squads......99,880 lost @ 779,040 pts
122mm howitzers...4039 lost @ 302,925 pts
cav squads........6157 lost @ 252,437 pts (much lower numbers but cost just over x5 rifle squad cost[:)] )
76mm field guns...4490 lost @ 184,090 pts
support squads....84,081 lost @ 168,162 pts
45mm AT guns......9540 lost @ 152,640 pts

I don't know how many arms points Brian has had over these same turns but I expect he must have been running on empty for a while especially as he lost 85 arms factories during this period

It seems that I was therefore able to keep up the same tempo of losses all the way through until the blizzard. That's something the the Germans need to aspire to. If you don't get the kills early, then it becomes much harder later. If you don't keep it up, then the Soviets will bounce back and bite your frozen a## in the blizzard: once the effects of the current beta have been toned down anyway...........



Peltonx -> RE: SILLY's SWANSONG NO BRIAN G (3/12/2016 1:00:05 PM)

Trend Lines of 1.08.00 +
Did not make 25 turns
Mr.X/ Oshawatt/ Shermanny/Pitmen/ Huw Jones/Virabrand/Callistrid/Hermann
Turn 25
Pelton vs BrianG Russian OOB: 6,063,000 On-going
Armament Pts. Destroyed = 19
Heavy Industry Destroyed = 19
Factories: ?

Pelton vs rkimmi Stavka OOB: 6,018,000 GHC Truck losses: 432,138 German Victory turn 60
Armament Pts. Destroyed = 73
Heavy Industry Destroyed = 47
Factories: Leningrad KV-1,BA-10,T-50

Pelton vs smokendave Russian OOB: 5,937,000 Draw turn 211
Armament Pts. Destroyed = 90
Heavy Industry Destroyed = 83
Factories: ?

Pelton vs Chaos45 Stavka OOB: 5,250,000 Russian Victory
Armament Pts. Destroyed = 51
Heavy Industry Destroyed = 19
Factories: T-34 (60) Vehicles (25) SU2 (12)

Pelton vs Hermann Stavka OOB: 4,700,000 House Rule VP German Victory turn 24.
Armament Pts. Destroyed = 133
Heavy Industry Destroyed = 57

Silly vs BrianG Stavka OOB: 4,700,000 Game ongoing.
Armament Pts. Destroyed = 85
Heavy Industry Destroyed = 40

Pelton vs BrianG Russian OOB: 6,063,000
Pelton vs rkimmi Stavka OOB: 6,018,000
Pelton vs smokendave Russian OOB: 5,937,000
Pelton vs Chaos45 Stavka OOB: 5,250,000
Pelton vs Hermann Stavka OOB: 4,700,000
Silly vs BrianG Stavka OOB: 4,700,000

Our games look very much the same other then I managed to take more industry.

I say brian has not lost game yet and you have not won it on to 42- yes on AP crunch but he can work around that and by late 43 it be all good. It did buy you time for sure, but you have to finish the job in 42



sillyflower -> RE: SILLY's SWANSONG NO BRIAN G (3/12/2016 9:42:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Our games look very much the same other then I managed to take more industry.

I say brian has not lost game yet and you have not won it on to 42- yes on AP crunch but he can work around that and by late 43 it be all good. It did buy you time for sure, but you have to finish the job in 42


Doesn't look like many of your games. I have now posted the factory losses which will hamper his airforce. As we know, that matters more now than when we played the summer under .07. Somewhere between Herman and Chaos I think. A key stat missing from both our tables is manpower. Currently (T27) I have captured 1290, but there are some others that he owns but have 100% damage

I have always said the game is far from won. However, the new combat rules allowing the higher morale units to withdraw or counterattack are doing a lot in favour of the Hun in terms of reduced G and higher R casualties. Action point crunch doesn't really exist now - it's going to have to be about the losses and VP grabbing.



Peltonx -> RE: SILLY's SWANSONG NO BRIAN G (3/13/2016 3:25:16 AM)

The best you can hope for is a draw vs Brian because you just don't understand how game works.

It looks just like Hermann, but I wiped out more industry, because you simply can not rush and pocket as good as I can.

MT is better them me so your in like 5th place behind MT-sapper-TDV-Pelton

We all can pocket units, but your still 2nd class as you don't get how to pocket units+ industry.

basicly you don't understand logistics system

1.0 = WitW logistics system.

I can not wait for 2,0 release, more of the same [sm=happy0029.gif]

loki does the best AAR's, but he is in the dark also.




Kofiman -> RE: SILLY's SWANSONG NO BRIAN G (3/13/2016 5:08:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Additional Auto VC:
If the Axis player holds
Leningrad, Moscow, Voronezh and Rostov concurrently at any time in 1941 he wins
an Auto Victory. No need to waste any ones time as we all know the end results based on past games if these cities fall in 1941.




Wuffer -> RE: SILLY's SWANSONG NO BRIAN G (3/13/2016 6:54:43 AM)

that's becoming really entertaining now



sillyflower -> RE: SILLY's SWANSONG NO BRIAN G (3/13/2016 7:51:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

The best you can hope for is a draw vs Brian because you just don't understand how game works.

It looks just like Hermann, but I wiped out more industry, because you simply can not rush and pocket as good as I can.

MT is better them me so your in like 5th place behind MT-sapper-TDV-Pelton

We all can pocket units, but your still 2nd class as you don't get how to pocket units+ industry.

basicly you don't understand logistics system





If by this you mean that I don't understand the exploits that you use, not least because I have no wish to use such gamey tactics, then you are correct, otherwise your post is somewhat on the rude side (but fully within the bounds of acceptability as far as I'm concerned if any moderator is reading this)

I agree that MT is the best, but make no claims for myself.

Anyway, even without exploits, I'm not doing too badly against the person you say is the best russian player: and a lot better than you did [:'(]



sillyflower -> RE: SILLY's SWANSONG NO BRIAN G (3/13/2016 12:30:07 PM)

Thought so far and going forward

It was a better summer and autumn than I had dared to hope for. I largely had the right strategy to meet Brian's play style, but he didn't adjust quickly enough to my new approach.

As for the blizzard I intend to fight forward as much as possible. I will try very hard to keep Rostov, helped by the weak ice preventing combat over the lower Donets for the 1st 2 blizzard turns. Kharkov, Kaluga, Rzhev and Moscow are my must holds. My centre is the most vulnerable

more after lunch......



Peltonx -> RE: SILLY's SWANSONG NO BRIAN G (3/13/2016 12:42:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

The best you can hope for is a draw vs Brian because you just don't understand how game works.

It looks just like Hermann, but I wiped out more industry, because you simply can not rush and pocket as good as I can.

MT is better them me so your in like 5th place behind MT-sapper-TDV-Pelton

We all can pocket units, but your still 2nd class as you don't get how to pocket units+ industry.

basicly you don't understand logistics system





If by this you mean that I don't understand the exploits that you use, not least because I have no wish to use such gamey tactics, then you are correct, otherwise your post is somewhat on the rude side (but fully within the bounds of acceptability as far as I'm concerned if any moderator is reading this)

I agree that MT is the best, but make no claims for myself.

Anyway, even without exploits, I'm not doing too badly against the person you say is the best russian player: and a lot better than you did [:'(]



Your doing great just poking the bear a little as you do with some others for fun.

To be honest your just as good as I am - I have lost games and gotten draws

Your a class act as a person and a top tier player on both sides.

I don't exploit, I have stated in several threads how I do what I do and I have had to slightly change
that over the yrs as logistics rulesets are changed.




sillyflower -> RE: SILLY's SWANSONG NO BRIAN G (3/13/2016 1:25:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

The best you can hope for is a draw vs Brian because you just don't understand how game works.

It looks just like Hermann, but I wiped out more industry, because you simply can not rush and pocket as good as I can.

MT is better them me so your in like 5th place behind MT-sapper-TDV-Pelton

We all can pocket units, but your still 2nd class as you don't get how to pocket units+ industry.

basicly you don't understand logistics system





If by this you mean that I don't understand the exploits that you use, not least because I have no wish to use such gamey tactics, then you are correct, otherwise your post is somewhat on the rude side (but fully within the bounds of acceptability as far as I'm concerned if any moderator is reading this)

I agree that MT is the best, but make no claims for myself.

Anyway, even without exploits, I'm not doing too badly against the person you say is the best russian player: and a lot better than you did [:'(]



Your doing great just poking the bear a little as you do with some others for fun.



Fair enough [8D]

I fear that the word 'exploit' is unhelpful as it seems to mean different things to different folk. I was using it above to mean doing something allowed under the rules, but that seems to me to be too gamey. That's a very subjective issue. My thread on the issue of not killing surrounded units showed that there was wide disagreement about what was reasonable. All 4 options were entirely within the rules but I thought option 4 was too gamey ie an exploit. Some did not, yet others thought that my option 3 (which I thought OK) was too gamey as well.

At the risk of seeming to be terminally wet, I don't think that anyone whose views differed from mine on that issue was wrong. The problem comes when people have different views which only come out in the course of a game. House rules are helpful, but they only cover known knowns.



sillyflower -> RE: SILLY's SWANSONG NO BRIAN G (3/13/2016 1:51:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

Thought so far and going forward

It was a better summer and autumn than I had dared to hope for. I largely had the right strategy to meet Brian's play style, but he didn't adjust quickly enough to my new approach.

As for the blizzard I intend to fight forward as much as possible. I will try very hard to keep Rostov, helped by the weak ice preventing combat over the lower Donets for the 1st 2 blizzard turns. Kharkov, Kaluga, Rzhev and Moscow are my must holds. My centre is the most vulnerable

more after lunch......


Carrying on from the above.

Orel, Belgerod and Kursk are therefore vulnerable, especially as I don't have rail lines very near any of them. I intend to fight forward, as I think .08 will be very helpful in reducing G and increasing R casualties in combats. [ Editors note: this was a correct expectation on my part - see Brian's current thread/cri de coeur on retreat losses]. However, I'm a pragmatist and will play it by ear.

My main blizzard aim is to keep the Wehrmacht as intact as possible (especially the armour and the 85+ morale inf xx of which I have plenty) making full use of cities and towns to reduce attrition losses. I also always have a rolling programme of sending the lowest TOE pz and mot.xx back to Germany for refitting. Given both the new rail restrictions and the policy to fight forward, this is likely to be only a couple at any one time.


I do not have a choate plan for '42 ie I don't know where the Panzerblob will go. I'm happy if B advances too far in the centre or out of the Crimea because that will give me good Panzerblob targets without having to think much. Anything to put off the tedious task of finding out where the VPs are and which I will have to take to get to 260. I don't know how many I have at the moment. Mr Pelton may therefore be right to say that the best I can hope for is a draw because I don't know how the VPs work [:(].



Peltonx -> RE: SILLY's SWANSONG NO BRIAN G (3/13/2016 3:08:08 PM)

When I played dave I never took Moscow and had 258 at the peak.

At my 41 peak I had 226 without Moscow and our lines look very close.

Moscow is 14 Points I believe.

So you have about 240 I am thinking or slightly more, but you lose some during blizzard?

Basicly hold ALL the citys north of Oka during blizzard as if you don't you never get them back.

Then you will need to take Stalingrad, 3 cities in deep south, then the line of them to Tomboy basicly.

IF I remember right.

Good thing all are in clear terrain basicly.



sillyflower -> RE: SILLY's SWANSONG NO BRIAN G (3/14/2016 2:35:23 PM)

Very good Mr P. Brian sent his turn back very quickly so I can now see I have 240 VPs



HITMAN202 -> RE: SILLY's SWANSONG NO BRIAN G (3/14/2016 5:15:28 PM)

Pelton should not get into a war of words with you. He would get bruised. Remember Pelton is harsh with his comments because he is very hard in judging his own play. As you rightly judged, he means no evil.

Silly, give us your views on best play in mild blizzard both from the Axis and Russian perspective. You may replace Flaviusx as my WITE Yoda. Of course I would have to come up with a new appellation. .



sillyflower -> RE: SILLY's SWANSONG NO BRIAN G (3/14/2016 10:03:57 PM)

Re mild blizzard you shd look at Brian's thread on retreat losses if you haven't already, as this was based on our game. New patch makes life a lot easier for the german.

I will say more on this thread when the time comes.



sillyflower -> RE: SILLY's SWANSONG NO BRIAN G (3/16/2016 12:17:20 PM)

Life and the game go on. T25 ie 1st blizzard is fine because attrition happens before the weather changes so there is still 1 turn to run into winter quarters

[image]local://upfiles/35790/37B713FB2FEE4334903613F4D8E8DCED.jpg[/image]

Not v much activity obviously, but I take every chance to punish communists who are surrounded on all sides and therefore suffer horribly when they retreat [sm=sterb003.gif].



sillyflower -> RE: SILLY's SWANSONG NO BRIAN G (3/16/2016 12:20:39 PM)

south

[image]local://upfiles/35790/FE3193AB687B4AA2A944277B4E2DE480.jpg[/image]

Similar but also happy to push him back over the Donets (far right of line) and to smack weak forces (esp. cav) who creep forward, in order to make Brian's advance more difficult in his turn.

I also try to ensure tha armour which may need to attack next turn, or get out of any partial encirclement, are topped up with petrol by the LW. Another point the German needs to watch is ammo even when units are in supply. Units with v. low ammo and likely to be attacked need to be topped up wherever possible. Obviously this is better done by level bombers so the checks need to be made near the start of the turn - at any rate before the bombers fly any combat missions.

As you can see, I have vacated very few hexes; almost all in the centre where I am weak. One disadvantage of staying put is that I'm a few hexes from my rail lines everywhere so the FBD priority is to try to remedy that. Not much they can do in the centre. Though my north-south line is complete is was built a safe distance behind the lines for obvious reasons.



sillyflower -> RE: SILLY's SWANSONG NO BRIAN G (3/16/2016 10:36:54 PM)

Thoughts on T25

losses 2K to 29K (really!) air - forgot to look. 2 inf xx 3 rifle x and 1 gd cav xx destroyed.

I'm not one for pretty straight, diagonal lines (just think how different hex based gaming would be if the columns were straight rather than the rows) because I prefer to maximise the benefits of terrain and especially towns in the blizzard. I haven't got as many forts as some might like, but I'm confident that the ground I grabbed and casualties caused in the snow were far more valuable.

I haven't been doing as many map pictures in the blizzard turns to date (Brian is doing his 25 Dec turn) as before, partly because less is happening:particularly from my perspective, and also because I assume that Brian is doing/will do excellent pictures anyway based on his AAR v Pelton. Let me know if he isn't (but nothing else about his AAR [:-]) or if you want more from me anyway.



Michael T -> RE: SILLY's SWANSONG NO BRIAN G (3/17/2016 1:00:01 AM)

quote:

(just think how different hex based gaming would be if the columns were straight rather than the rows)


You mean like this?



[image]local://upfiles/22630/64D1C6B7E3524214B3867236127110F9.jpg[/image]



Michael T -> RE: SILLY's SWANSONG NO BRIAN G (3/17/2016 8:48:31 AM)

Respect for the first true blue wargamer to ID the game...



RKhan -> RE: SILLY's SWANSONG NO BRIAN G (3/17/2016 8:54:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Respect for the first true blue wargamer to ID the game...

Looks like GMT's Eastern Front though I don't have a copy any more.



Wuffer -> RE: SILLY's SWANSONG NO BRIAN G (3/17/2016 9:08:48 AM)

why hexes at all? In theory, a modern design could do fine without this boardgame 'artefact'.



sillyflower -> RE: SILLY's SWANSONG NO BRIAN G (3/17/2016 9:17:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Respect for the first true blue wargamer to ID the game...


The truest wargamers are those who play with miniatures [:-]. That's my excuse for not knowing anyway.



ericv -> RE: SILLY's SWANSONG NO BRIAN G (3/17/2016 12:38:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

quote:

(just think how different hex based gaming would be if the columns were straight rather than the rows)


You mean like this?



[image]local://upfiles/22630/64D1C6B7E3524214B3867236127110F9.jpg[/image]



that looks an aweful lot like this :


[image]https://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic191090_md.jpg[/image]

same colors, same green things. same roads, sameness all over. Although yours is a computer game and mine is a board game, i am betting that they are one and the same somewhere down the line :-)

So, I would say : Barbarossa army group north




Michael T -> RE: SILLY's SWANSONG NO BRIAN G (3/17/2016 12:55:10 PM)

Yes AGN it is. I have the all the Barby boardgames. The screenie is from Vassal. A PC program to play boardgames on via the net.

IMO the GMT Barbarossa games are the best bar none on the 1941 German invasion.



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