RE: AFV production (Full Version)

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topeverest -> RE: AFV production (12/13/2017 12:21:13 PM)

Thanks,

I obviously am still trying to determine mix.

I have 37 armored corps in 8 armies. I was planning to build about the same number of mechanized corps / reorganize armies, trucks permitting.

My first time in this part of the war, so trying to feel it out within the limits of building / APs and CP's

quote:

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

Hi Andy,

Fourteen loaded tank armies is doable. Lots of everything else as well.

C











topeverest -> Turn 110 July 22, 1943 (12/14/2017 12:09:41 AM)

Russia continues offensive

1. Russia doing some armor / cavalry guard attack farming
2. Russia main attack now centered between the Donnets and Kalitva rivers. Big battles and seesawing to minor Russian advantage
3. Russia reclaims all area SE of Rostov except a couple hexes east of Kerch
4. Russia gradually moving troops east and fighting over and near Don making slow progress up to the Svoboda curve (120.76)
5. 4 entire fronts now have no place in the MLR - time to plan another breakout offensive!!!
6. Russia begins building mech brigades. I converted my sole 3 brigades to a corps recently and finally have access to the mech corps TOE. My my that's nice! Yet another learning - and late. That's gotta be the story of tis AAR




M60A3TTS -> RE: AFV production (12/14/2017 12:10:56 AM)

You would stand a very good chance of losing the game if you try and build 37 mechanized corps on top of 37 tank corps. The mech units alone would require about 140,000 trucks and then the motor pool would need more accordingly. Any real movement westwards would decimate your truck fleet and the giant group of armored formations soon wouldn't go anywhere. 25 tank and 12 mech might be possible, but the mech corps really need to have been built by now. Any new arrivals will not be of much use for months.



charlie0311 -> RE: AFV production (12/14/2017 12:37:01 AM)

Comrades!

34 tank xxx and 14 mech xxx can be done, in 14 tk armies, with plenty of trucks.

M-60 is correct in all things. But more can be done, there is a catch, of course (as in all things wite). You must be very careful with the truck pool, meaning (among other things) very limited use of armored forces in bad weather.

As a practical matter, 12 tk xxxx's with 30 tk xxx and 6 mech xxx should be plenty to crush the fascists... "should be".



topeverest -> Updated campaign map (12/14/2017 12:42:33 AM)

Here is a view - slow Russian in the face of determined German resistance



[image]local://upfiles/26803/E0E2DA18ED0D4172A0BEDE42A9667FD5.jpg[/image]



topeverest -> RE: AFV production (12/14/2017 11:44:02 AM)

Thanks - I doubted I could get to equal numbers. I had one idle army and I built enough to make that entirely mech. I will hold and see how my trucks develop

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

You would stand a very good chance of losing the game if you try and build 37 mechanized corps on top of 37 tank corps. The mech units alone would require about 140,000 trucks and then the motor pool would need more accordingly. Any real movement westwards would decimate your truck fleet and the giant group of armored formations soon wouldn't go anywhere. 25 tank and 12 mech might be possible, but the mech corps really need to have been built by now. Any new arrivals will not be of much use for months.




topeverest -> RE: AFV production (12/14/2017 11:45:29 AM)

Thanks -

Certainly I made a statement too bold. I will monitor trucks and determine what is feasible. There still are some other builds necessary to fill out all my fronts

quote:

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

Comrades!

34 tank xxx and 14 mech xxx can be done, in 14 tk armies, with plenty of trucks.

M-60 is correct in all things. But more can be done, there is a catch, of course (as in all things wite). You must be very careful with the truck pool, meaning (among other things) very limited use of armored forces in bad weather.

As a practical matter, 12 tk xxxx's with 30 tk xxx and 6 mech xxx should be plenty to crush the fascists... "should be".




Stelteck -> RE: AFV production (12/14/2017 12:07:01 PM)

It is easier to built 30 more cavalry corps than 30 more mech corps.
Cavalry corps are really cheap in trucks and the 1943 model is tank heavy. And they can all become guard.

A guard cavalry corps have better CV than a non guard tank corps.



M60A3TTS -> RE: AFV production (12/14/2017 2:34:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

Comrades!

34 tank xxx and 14 mech xxx can be done, in 14 tk armies, with plenty of trucks.

M-60 is correct in all things. But more can be done, there is a catch, of course (as in all things wite). You must be very careful with the truck pool, meaning (among other things) very limited use of armored forces in bad weather.

As a practical matter, 12 tk xxxx's with 30 tk xxx and 6 mech xxx should be plenty to crush the fascists... "should be".


Building a lot of tank armies isn't efficient for a long time if you use 4 corps in it instead of 3 corps. I believe that is what everest said he did earlier. Overloading the stack eliminates the +1 admin to the leader roll, making them no more effective than if they were in a regular army. It isn't until the capacity expands when the army becomes guards that it is truly worth it.

On another note, these Soviet northern pincer attacks look like there are many front commands involved. These attacks, I assume, are getting heavily penalized for lack of unity of command.

What other necessary builds are required besides rifle corps? Most of those reserves you built are currently more wasted assets as the cost of their APs could have been spent putting more rifle corps into the line where they could actually be fighting as opposed to looking for a fight.




topeverest -> Turn 113 August ,1943 (12/23/2017 1:07:09 AM)

Russian attacks continue - and they continue with little progress

over the last days I have been having a modest awakening on what the Russian army should look and feel like. I built out a prototype 14 front + STAVKA from the army to troops to SUs. It was quite revealing, and an exercise I should have done before I started. But hey, I am learning.

Specifically I took that 'ideal' organization and applied it to my current status in the game. it will take me 22 turns to build out what I need for the rest of the game. Again - something I should have done a long time ago, but I am starting to awaken as a player. Specifically, working down from the front limits to fill out 99 points per front with corps, I determined 95 divisions and 74 brigades are needed, excluding builds for a couple artillery armies. Then the AP's have to be focused on the remaining corps builds.

I figure it will be summer 44 combat season before the armed forces are fully assembled in a reasonable fashion. Thereafter, I will concentrate on SU's for corps and commanders.

Anyway, that is my plan as I begin my awakening on how to build Russian armed forces



topeverest -> RE: Turn 113 August ,1943 (12/23/2017 1:14:07 AM)

As far as offensive combat operations, I also am having an awakening.

You correctly identified that I sometimes use troops from more than one front in an attack, and that is pretty stupid. I continue to struggle to keep fronts distinct as I need to, but I am redoubling my effort.

I also have been laying around with various attack techniques and pulsing armor / mech / cav to needed points to push enemy back.

In general, I have to say that the enemy is still pretty thickly stacked and I am making poor progress, but I am learning. I am expanding my attacks to untouched sectors and attacking to rivers, and then shifting again. It is pretty tough to get along that.

As far as guard progression, my armor has quickly achieved the 35% maximum guard corps. BUT I haven't engaged my cavalry enough to get more cavalry guard corps. That is my mission the rest of this combat season. Farm as many cavalry guard corps as possible



topeverest -> RE: Turn 113 August ,1943 (12/23/2017 1:14:40 AM)

Here is a list of my current units as of end of July 1943



[image]local://upfiles/26803/F9ABA7894E7047B181CB669BFB25CC34.jpg[/image]



topeverest -> RE: Turn 113 August ,1943 (12/23/2017 1:22:51 AM)

Upgraded to patch 1.11 this past turn.



topeverest -> Air war (12/23/2017 1:34:27 AM)

Air war has once again pushed back to Russian favor.

I have three supper-bundles of air armies and am actively interdicting with success



[image]local://upfiles/26803/87A2195F659642BEABAB890916308D5C.jpg[/image]



M60A3TTS -> RE: Turn 113 August ,1943 (12/23/2017 2:40:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Russian attacks continue - and they continue with little progress

over the last days I have been having a modest awakening on what the Russian army should look and feel like. I built out a prototype 14 front + STAVKA from the army to troops to SUs. It was quite revealing, and an exercise I should have done before I started. But hey, I am learning.

Specifically I took that 'ideal' organization and applied it to my current status in the game. it will take me 22 turns to build out what I need for the rest of the game. Again - something I should have done a long time ago, but I am starting to awaken as a player. Specifically, working down from the front limits to fill out 99 points per front with corps, I determined 95 divisions and 74 brigades are needed, excluding builds for a couple artillery armies. Then the AP's have to be focused on the remaining corps builds.


This is a rather enigmatic statement as it's not clear whether you have determined you need another 95 divisions and 74 brigades beyond what you have currently. And is this infantry or other?



charlie0311 -> RE: Turn 113 August ,1943 (12/23/2017 3:07:12 AM)

Hi fellas,

Gee whiz guess I have to spell it all out. 6 tk xxxx's with 18 tk xxx for the '42 winter offensive.

Begin the next 6 tk xxxx's during the winter, 12 tk and 6 mech xxx. Should be rockin' by late summer.

And then next winter (for Christmas, commie style) 2 more tk xxxx's 8 mech and 4 tk xxx. 6 mech are to be added to the 6 gd tk armies that you get, need 50+ victories to qualify for gd tk army. Gd tk xxxx cp is 16.

Super powerful as the toe's upgrade. Cav xxx in the 5 shock armies is plenty.

No over loads allowed, though everybody knew that, I never overload, against my religion.

Trucks are not a problem. Err ok, they are a problem until you solve it. No tricks necessary.



topeverest -> RE: Turn 113 August ,1943 (12/23/2017 2:00:27 PM)

Gents, let me try to explain.

Let me try to explain my math and approach to determining a better, certainly not best, approach to the Russian force mix. IRL I am a corporate finance manager, and I deal in complex models as a matter of course. And of course, my mind eventually wandered to build a model to view the various options / determine the various optimization schemes and how they limit other options.

To begin, I determined the total number of APs awarded the Russian player in Scenario 1. I also decomposed every support unit by forwarding a solo game through 1943 and recording elements, and their changes over time. In this part of the exercise, I also tracked the cost to build units / when they change or become unavailable, etc.

With that in the hopper, I moved on to determining the maximum in-command Russian armed forces size. 14 Fronts with maximum 99 APs and STAVKA, which I assumed would act as another front for simplicity’s sake. 15 x 99 = 1,485 in command capacity as hypothesized. That equates to 742.5 division equivalents not using corps. I tallied 508 divisions and 221 brigades on the OOB excluding the Soviet minors. This is an equivalent of 618.5 divisions, or 124 divisions shy of max capacity.

But of course, enter corps and modeling gets a bit three dimensional. This is because
1. Infantry corps gain 1 AP if built with 2 divisions and 1 brigade
2. Mechanized, Motorized, and Armor have -1 AP effect when converting to corps
3. Cavalry gains 2 AP’s because three divisions (6 AP) become 4

So in a hypothetic force deployment of entirely Infantry, mot/mec/arm, or cavalry, we get three different end points for force capacity.
1. Infantry. 1485 / 4 = 371 net AP gain = +371.
2. mot / mech / arm. Same capacity. Net AP effect -371
3. Cavalry. Same capacity. Net AP effect +742

This equates to the following needs at the goal posts, which help determine trade offs with actual, viable force combinations (excluding effect of trucks)
1. Infantry. 742 divisions and 371 brigades needed. Net 234D and 150B needed, but I would have to disband / waste many AP’s, so this isn’t really an option, even if it is possible in the game
2. mot / mech / arm. 1114 brigades needed. Not worth calculating as impossible due to AP and truck costs
3. Cavalry = 1114 divisions needed. Effectively impossible due to the AP costs associated with disbanding infantry

Next I looked at the Front itself, and pondered several major themes
• How many armies of what type are needed? I struggled here, but finally opted for a historical approach to embedded armor and cavalry. So in my applied model, I chose to deploy 99 points as follows (excludes STAVKA)
i. 1 tank army with 3 armor corps & 3 brigades 4th corps added after guard
ii. 1 combined arms cavalry army with 4 cavalry corps
iii. 4 combined arms infantry army each with 4 infantry corps
iv. 4 points leftover for brigades or 2 artillery / rocket divisions
• STAVKA. I deployed the 5 shock armies
a. Army – all mountain divisions for use in caucuses
b. Army – all airborne guard divisions
c. Army – 5 mechanized corps
d. Army – 10 artillery divisions
e. Army – 10 rocket artillery divisions
f. 12 freestanding brigades

Discussion – of course this is a hypothetical on-map force deployment, which would be confounded by unit losses, the need for unit density, and unplanned use of AP’s (AP and Truck discussion for another post), but it is FAR closer to a good deployment than what I have done. The key hypothesis in this deployment schedule is that having armor and cavalry corps in every front creates pressure in every theater.

AS FAR AS THE CURRENT game, clearly I had no idea what I was doing when I made builds, and it is not possible to deploy armor and cavalry the way I postulate above. That leaves me with a force design that has to be somewhat different. Compound that with my worry about tanking trucks, and I am more than modestly concerned that adding armor, motorized, and mechanized at this time has uncertain outcomes due to my unfamiliarity with this part of the war.

With that assumed that I will build few amror, mech, mot from this point forward, that means my “full” force deployment. Considering the force deployment I currently have, which isn’t materially different from the posting counting end of July above,
1. I don’t need to build any armies
2. I need 179 corps formations to max out the fronts at 99 points. When counting up my current divisions – and assuming they will all be infantry corps, I need those 95 divisions and 74 brigades – or 22 turns of building
3. New corps will be built thereafter
4. New support units will not be built until after all the corps are built. That said, I can move them around and while it will be somewhat slim, it isn’t fatal
5. My key question is if to build out cavalry so that it appears as an army in every front. I am currently organized to deploy cavalry to only 5 fronts. If I were to build it out for 14 and get more armor and guard corps deployed to the game, that would be 9 fronts x 4 corps per front x 3 divisions per corps = 108 cavalry divisions. That would drop the need for 72 infantry divisions and 36 infantry brigades, or 110 AP’s net cost excluding cost to organize

SO – that is what I was talking about with the number of divisions and brigades I should build. Please advise, as what I am proposing is far better than what I have already done.

In any event as always, I am encouraged by the assistance offered.



STEF78 -> RE: Turn 113 August ,1943 (12/23/2017 4:01:46 PM)

Some thoughts about your game:

For the russian:
- you're on the right way, you got the momentum and the germans won't get it back.
- keep the pressure during this summer, intensively use artillery and tac bombers.
- You did a good job in the air and you can do better. The LW heavily weakens between end july and mid september 1943. lots of fighter groups are sent back to germany. A marvellous opportunity to kill as much JU87 as possible
- open new areas of fights. Don't let the german concentrate his mobile units at the same place
- avoid as much of possible mulitple fronts/armies in the same fight, but I know that AP's are heavily needed elsewhere for the russian player
- think as the german: "where will the russian hit?" and open as much as possible wrong ways for him

For the german:
- your defence mostly rely on your mobile units. don't forget to set them on refit on rail every time it's possible. after several weeks of fights, TOE can drop easily to 60%
- use your heavy pz battallions on hot spots, you will have more than enough Tigers till end 1943.
- swap when possible your FB to FW190
- minor allies will get BF109G2/G6 during the next weeks. Don't forget to swap your air squads
- think as the russian: "where is the best opportunity of breakthrough?"
- don't forget to trade ground against time
- and kind thoughts, winter is coming....

Good luck to both of you and enjoy!




M60A3TTS -> RE: Turn 113 August ,1943 (12/23/2017 5:22:18 PM)

The spreadsheet shown seems to be duplicating rifle and guards rifle divisions, so I'm not sure what the true #s are. I'll put aside the guards units and go with what remains.

You have in the infantry department:
112 rifle corps
266 rifle divisions
82 rifle brigades

In terms of rifle division equivalents that gives you:
336 divisions from corps (3x)
266 divisions from divisions (1x)
41 divisions (.5x)

Total: 643 rifle division equivalents.

Your proposal is to have 14 fronts, each with 16 rifle corps, or 48 division equivalents for a total of 672 division equivalents in 224 rifle corps. That's 29 additional divisions.

I would take a different, less sophisticated approach and that is to suggest what you need is 160-180 rifle corps to break your opponent. That would mean an additional 48-68 corps of 96-136 rifle divisions and 48-68 brigades. You already have these elements, so all you need to do now is form the corps. You can do this in 8-12 turns, not 22. Of course, they will need sappers. Two per corps is adequate. But building these corps should be the priority as they deliver immediate results.

I would not even bother worrying about converting fronts like Volkhov and Northwest to rifle corps yet. Let the infantry divisions extend out the line so you can concentrate your forces elsewhere.

The cavalry and tank forces you consider will be far less effective in the north where the ground defense is tougher to overcome. Unless you have a specific use for them, and indeed sometimes there are, you can often just leave the northern fronts with infantry only.

The Shock Armies are just not well thought out. Only the (c) army of 5 mechanized corps makes any real sense. Cavalry, tank and mechanized corps make a lot of sense here. The +1 admin value equals higher movement values and this is what you want in an exploitation force.

You don't want too many rocket divisions; they eat trucks. Look at the guards heavy rocket brigade. They operate off fixed stands, and not trucks. And oh by the way, you get more launchers out of the two brigades than the one division for much of the game.

An army of guards rifle corps > an army of guards airborne divisions 10/10 times. In fact, guards airborne divisions in general are pretty pointless.

Build your fronts to a max of 6 armies as planned and don't worry about building out to the max CP of the front. You can always throw in a couple spare rocket brigades or a mobile corps, but you also have to account for the fact you may want a 21CP shock army which would add to the front CP, or an army could flip to guards and again will open up another corps slot that would count against the front CP.

Too many level bombers and not enough tac bombers or bases. Build to about 120 tac bombers. Level bombers eat a lot more supply and supply = trucks. Personally, I like around 65 airbases. The rest of the VVS looks ok.



topeverest -> Updated Units (12/25/2017 2:11:40 AM)

Thanks for catching an error on infantry corps. I updated and corrected the chart for turn 115. Note this is a theoretical buildout that I might have considered had I not squandered a years worth of AP's on stupid stuff.

That said, what I am doing as turns go forward is to build corps one turn and units the next. it is clear I need more corps to begin to have momentum on the attack.



[image]local://upfiles/26803/5E6B727041B84EBA8F13907F73CE4B4D.jpg[/image]



topeverest -> Turn 115 Aug 26, 1943 (12/25/2017 2:43:07 AM)

Here is a view of the combat theaters.

3 major soviet offensives underway. A fourth started this turn, and a fifth next turn. One more reserve front that can be deployed by late September

1. Attacking south between Kalitva and Darkul rivers towards Donnets. Slow but steady progress Some front jumbling
2. Attacking west off the Don along the Voronezh Rostov rail. Very heavy enemy counerattacks but weight of advance slowly making progress. Some enemy units routing (Romanian) (front Jumbling not completely fixed)
3. Driving west off Don just South of Voronezh. No material progress yet, but holding down many enemy units
4. Driving south and west from Tula area towards Orel. Main attack begin this turn with three entire fronts, but fewer corps than desired. Objective is Orel, and to tie dowm many enemy mobile units
5. Starting next turn, driving north east from Cherepovets area to Lake Ladoga 2 effective fronts in action

Caucuses front available for attack deployment by late September depending on where committed.

[image]local://upfiles/26803/31FE03B531664DEB88C591A82C6FBC9B.jpg[/image]



chaos45 -> RE: Turn 115 Aug 26, 1943 (12/25/2017 9:05:36 AM)

If he keeps all that armor at Moscow I would just use all your mobile formations to destroy Army Group south in detail. As Moscow is really infantry terrain defend and German infantry alone cant hold in the open in the south against massed Soviet armor even in 1943.



topeverest -> RE: Turn 118 Sep 16, 1943 (12/30/2017 1:37:33 PM)

3 more good turns in the summer campaign season. Russia continues mostly marginally successful attacks. I am testing new ways to attack to get more ground in a turn. Lots left to learn.

last three turns 12 infantry corps created and 12 new brigades

1. Russian major attack functionally wraps up - southward attack between the Derkul and Kalitva rivers pushing down to the Donets. Began initial reduction attacks to get across donets, the last major river obstacle for a long time
2. Reds pushing due west from Boguchar to Kharkov. Looking to cross the Aidar river before the mud season
3. The Don Svoboda curve - finally reduces and pushing west crossing Tikhaya Sosna river. Pushing due west thereafter
4. Punch through the enemys line in the Orel sector and pocket enemy divisions and push the MLR back 5 hexes. I have to do more of this kind of thing
5. heavy pressure on Fins from the Cherepovets Leningrad railroad north to the Lake Onega. Some enemy ground given but they haven't broken yet.






topeverest -> Donets (12/30/2017 1:43:58 PM)

The strategic goal is to get to the Stalino complex and retake the resource centers.

Slow progress here in the face of Germanys strongest unit mix.

But full guard corps attacking have made slow if steady progress the last several months. I really should mass more of these in one location when I have more to do. That will make things go faster.



[image]local://upfiles/26803/D873145DE7AE4D0A89F528562629EA20.jpg[/image]



topeverest -> Svoboda Curve of Don (12/30/2017 1:54:02 PM)

More than a month of heavy fighting back and forth finally has resulted in Russian victory -- as the last major fort protecting the rail into the Don / Donets basin has been busted.



[image]local://upfiles/26803/EBD7AC9B11E84E8089670CA9D7292AD7.jpg[/image]



topeverest -> Orel (12/30/2017 1:58:12 PM)

Here I decided to take some chances and bust through the enemy line with armor. I really didn't plan it well / more than one turn, as I saw a weakness and went for it.

Time will tell how sound the idea was. But I will say it was an education to say the least. I infer that better massed troops are necessary to really exploit.



[image]local://upfiles/26803/A076092A87D8478AA8675388569915B4.jpg[/image]



topeverest -> Leningrad (12/30/2017 2:03:29 PM)

I already wonder if it was a good use of the two fronts engaged in getting to Lake Ladoga. That said, slow progress is begin made. I underestimated Fins and their forts in the woods, but progress nonetheless is being made.

really should have had about 4 armor / mech corps up in this attack. Anyway, learning with every attack

[image]local://upfiles/26803/A4276F5AA0184D608B99C5F14EB44913.jpg[/image]



topeverest -> Industry pools (12/30/2017 2:09:57 PM)

Over the last turns I have been actively making corps (and TOE upgrades) and units while conducting multiple combat operations. Not surprising here.

I expect to bottom out manpower before the end of the combat season but again build a pool during the mud.



[image]local://upfiles/26803/7C66A31A0A5145429897B22CB0A4D0A0.jpg[/image]



topeverest -> Losses (12/30/2017 2:18:55 PM)

Germany looks pretty good except for air losses. Soviets are effectively shutting down the Luftwaffe



[image]local://upfiles/26803/AEE40CA094604250B3ADFB53015C5B27.jpg[/image]



topeverest -> AFV and AIR Production (12/30/2017 2:25:15 PM)

Air production is all Green.

here are the AFVs - looks pretty good. If I wasn't so far behind in infantry corps I might build a few more armored. But hey...





[image]local://upfiles/26803/FC4B707928B54E718896BCD5DFEE76A6.jpg[/image]



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