RE: October 1942 (Full Version)

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HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: October 1942 (9/24/2017 3:59:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

I'd like to add to bigbaba's comments. I've been following silently but there have been some real nail biting turns and an incredible scenario as the Soviets hold on to a thin ring from Crimea to Baku, and the Axis within as little as 10 miles everywhere but just on the edge of logistics.

One question - has there ever been a person versus person game, ideally with an AAR, that has ever taken Baku?


Yes, there are some AARs that people have taken Baku. (Sorry but I think I have read every single AAR there is... Yes I know, no life)



Telemecus -> RE: October 1942 (9/24/2017 4:13:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

I'd like to add to bigbaba's comments. I've been following silently but there have been some real nail biting turns and an incredible scenario as the Soviets hold on to a thin ring from Crimea to Baku, and the Axis within as little as 10 miles everywhere but just on the edge of logistics.

One question - has there ever been a person versus person game, ideally with an AAR, that has ever taken Baku?


Yes, there are some AARs that people have taken Baku. (Sorry but I think I have read every single AAR there is... Yes I know, no life)



Can you help us find it. I know it is an unfair question as they are the things you read ages ago and cannot remember where. I have gone through quite a few old AARs. For example I did a through search for all the Team game ones. I have done searches with posts older than 365 days. But never found a Baku conquest. I was going to post you rather than hijack this forum thread. But I imagine others would want to find it too and it would be a relevant comparison to this thread.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: October 1942 (9/24/2017 4:25:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

I'd like to add to bigbaba's comments. I've been following silently but there have been some real nail biting turns and an incredible scenario as the Soviets hold on to a thin ring from Crimea to Baku, and the Axis within as little as 10 miles everywhere but just on the edge of logistics.

One question - has there ever been a person versus person game, ideally with an AAR, that has ever taken Baku?


Yes, there are some AARs that people have taken Baku. (Sorry but I think I have read every single AAR there is... Yes I know, no life)



Can you help us find it. I know it is an unfair question as they are the things you read ages ago and cannot remember where. I have gone through quite a few old AARs. For example I did a through search for all the Team game ones. I have done searches with posts older than 365 days. But never found a Baku conquest. I was going to post you rather than hijack this forum thread. But I imagine others would want to find it too and it would be a relevant comparison to this thread.


I dont' have the time to go find them. Plus some have probably been deleted since I'm pretty sure Pelton had at least one himself as I recall(if not more). I know there were a few other games where the Germans were lining up on the East side of the map with nothing in the south. I will digress from there since I really don't have time to go diving for info at the moment ;) Good luck in your en devour.



Crackaces -> RE: October 1942 (9/24/2017 4:58:44 PM)

I don't think it matters .. Baku > 1.08 and after might just be two separate animals.



Telemecus -> RE: October 1942 (9/24/2017 5:11:33 PM)

True enough. I am just wondering then if it ever would be possible now to get Baku? I know you can get the Western Caucasus, and isolate and force auto-surrender surrounded units down there. And get to Astrakhan. But that final corner? If impossible, and even if you are playing for points, Stef78 would have been better off doing something else that would damage the Soviets more. It is also a more general question for others - what is the best 1942 strategy.



STEF78 -> RE: October 1942 (9/24/2017 6:59:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

One question - has there ever been a person versus person game, ideally with an AAR, that has ever taken Baku?

I did it, in May 1943 but my opponent was below average level and heavily underestimated german mobile troops mobility

The AAR below

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3524838&mpage=1&key=




timmyab -> RE: October 1942 (9/24/2017 7:30:54 PM)

quote:

has there ever been a person versus person game, ideally with an AAR, that has ever taken Baku?

Sillyflower vs Brian is the only game I can think of where a good player lost Baku.
quote:

I am just wondering then if it ever would be possible now to get Baku?

I believe it's always been virtually impossible vs best play. The Soviet player needs to either make a mistake, underestimate the strategic importance of holding Baku or be beaten already.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: October 1942 (9/24/2017 10:25:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

True enough. I am just wondering then if it ever would be possible now to get Baku? I know you can get the Western Caucasus, and isolate and force auto-surrender surrounded units down there. And get to Astrakhan. But that final corner? If impossible, and even if you are playing for points, Stef78 would have been better off doing something else that would damage the Soviets more. It is also a more general question for others - what is the best 1942 strategy.


42 can be a pain for the Germans. But if your 41 campaign was manpower centers then continue on that front while continuing the elimination of counters to force them to be reborn while going after those centers. Manpower is the crux of the Soviets imo.



Telemecus -> RE: October 1942 (9/25/2017 9:08:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: STEF78
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

One question - has there ever been a person versus person game, ideally with an AAR, that has ever taken Baku?

I did it, in May 1943 but my opponent was below average level and heavily underestimated german mobile troops mobility

The AAR below

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3524838&mpage=1&key=

Thanks for this - I think I have to do a search and read for all AARs with "frog" in the title!
Perhaps at the end of the game both you and Stelteck might be able to do a retrospective on how feasible it is in the current version?



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: October 1942 (9/25/2017 1:52:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: STEF78
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

One question - has there ever been a person versus person game, ideally with an AAR, that has ever taken Baku?

I did it, in May 1943 but my opponent was below average level and heavily underestimated german mobile troops mobility

The AAR below

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3524838&mpage=1&key=

Thanks for this - I think I have to do a search and read for all AARs with "frog" in the title!
Perhaps at the end of the game both you and Stelteck might be able to do a retrospective on how feasible it is in the current version?


The true question is, "How long will you be able to hold onto it once you capture it"? In an equally match campaign scenerio of skill the German is going to be "way" out of position if he hasn't put a serious smackdown on the Soviet player imo.



Stelteck -> RE: October 1942 (9/25/2017 2:01:48 PM)

Naval transport over the Caspian sea are not very efficient in game, i transfered 2 fully stuffed cavalry corps it cost me 11000 points / around 2 monthes worth of naval transport.
It is not easy to send troops though sea.

So to defend Baku you have to plan to have troops retreating here from start. But i think having one fully stuffed front to defend it is enough to hold it. Especially if you put all mountain divisions inside like me.

In the current game, i have 2 fronts + 2 independant armies with heavy stuff, one front (transcaucasus) defend bakhu, and the other (crimea) sebastopol to caucasus.

Alternative is to built troops at Baku [;)]

The battle for the Caucasus middle summer was very interesting and tense, i was very anxious to have the railroad line West/East cut and crimea isolated. We were all desperately trying to hold in the middle of the mountain with scarse supply line, but german mountain divisions gave up first !!! [:)]

But loosing the railroad would have doomed the crimean front, but i would have still hold baku with the transcaucasus one.



Crackaces -> RE: October 1942 (9/25/2017 3:15:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: STEF78
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

One question - has there ever been a person versus person game, ideally with an AAR, that has ever taken Baku?

I did it, in May 1943 but my opponent was below average level and heavily underestimated german mobile troops mobility

The AAR below

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3524838&mpage=1&key=

Thanks for this - I think I have to do a search and read for all AARs with "frog" in the title!
Perhaps at the end of the game both you and Stelteck might be able to do a retrospective on how feasible it is in the current version?


The true question is, "How long will you be able to hold onto it once you capture it"? In an equally match campaign scenerio of skill the German is going to be "way" out of position if he hasn't put a serious smackdown on the Soviet player imo.



This again changes with 1.11.0 and limiting supply from a single railhead. How much .. that had yet to be seen.



STEF78 -> October 1942 (9/27/2017 9:33:10 PM)

Turn 69, 8th october 1942

Last turn of clear weather before mud.

Crimea is almost cleared except Sevastopol and Kerch

[img]https://i.imgur.com/fPTXslK.jpg[/img]

In eastern Caucasus, defence is really very strong...

[img]https://i.imgur.com/Wyfxl5g.jpg[/img]

Always non decisive fights west of Saratov

[img]https://i.imgur.com/p3ULOh0.jpg[/img]

The OOB, below 4M men for the germans and below 7M men for USSR. But time is on the red side...

[img]https://i.imgur.com/EnswmM6.jpg[/img]



Nix77 -> RE: October 1942 (9/28/2017 5:38:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces
This again changes with 1.11.0 and limiting supply from a single railhead. How much .. that had yet to be seen.


I think that's in WitE2, so the germans have over a year (?) of time to exploit the quantum railways in WitE1 :D



Stelteck -> RE: October 1942 (9/28/2017 8:37:08 AM)

End of the season !!!

I have a strange sensation this year. I lost tons of ground, stalingrad and the north Caucasus. The spring 1942 german offensive was brutal and impossible to stop.
I do not even look at victory points anymore.
But on the other hand, i think i managed to avoid excessive looses and was able to fight without loosing my army in the process.
At the end the enemy advance was stopped by my new counter attack force around saratov and in southern caucasus. It is quite a success and i'am not sûre things could have been significantly better.

For 1943, everything is possible. My army is in good shape but the german army is very strong too.



Stelteck -> RE: October 1942 (9/28/2017 1:19:24 PM)

Most of the actions were supported by Crimea and transcaucasus front in the caucasus, and southern front and voronev front on the volga.

Southwest front and bryansk front were underused but fought a little.

Center front, Kalinin front, northwest front and northern front did virtually nothing this year. [;)]

Also 4 independant shock armies +2 regular armies for cavalry and a good numbers of independant armies of tanks or even tank armies.

Ps: It is really nasty to have put exactly 15 command points in a tank army. Developers are probably really vicious and dark people deep inside.




STEF78 -> Summer 1942 (9/28/2017 7:35:50 PM)

Here we are, the summer campaign is ended and here is the moment to assess the situation of this decisive summer.

Main report: the war is lost! Gradually the initiative is going to hand on to the Russian player and nothing can invert the course of the war.

Second point: This summer campaign is only partially successfull, I prove to be unable to destroy the russian army but I created a buffer which will be exchanged against time from late 1943 to 1945.

The beginning of the campaign was done on a high tempo and I achieved several success but as soon as my pzd/mot were too far away I was unable to sustain the rythm of progress.

I also made at least 2 mistakes:
- I lost 2 turns with 10 pzd/mot without fuel east of Grozny. Thus I lost my little opportunity to take Baku. Some of my transports were left stupidly around Moscow...
- I overestimated the ability of my mountain units to cross the Caucasus mountains. Supply is unefficient though the mountains and my Jager lost their efficiency when they reached the russian line of defence.

I also had to let some pzd/mot around Saratov as Stelteck was very strong in this area.

On the other side, I cleared most of the black sea coast and took Stalingrad, Grozny, Rostov, Tambov, Tuapse. Stelteck did a good defence in the South but with rifle corps, he would have kept Tuapse without problem. As russian, I would have more fought to hold Stalingrad. And due to the loss of mapower centers, russian OOB is still under 7M men.

Now, I feel like an accountant. russian army is now too strong to be defeated so I have to prepare for the bad time to come. I will try to shorten my line of defence and be on the offensive as long as possible.

It's not yet the beginning of the end but surely the end of the beginning!

[img]https://i.imgur.com/MoiC5wD.jpg[/img]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Summer 1942 (9/28/2017 7:47:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: STEF78

Here we are, the summer campaign is ended and here is the moment to assess the situation of this decisive summer.

Main report: the war is lost! Gradually the initiative is going to hand on to the Russian player and nothing can invert the course of the war.

Second point: This summer campaign is only partially successfull, I prove to be unable to destroy the russian army but I created a buffer which will be exchanged against time from late 1943 to 1945.

The beginning of the campaign was done on a high tempo and I achieved several success but as soon as my pzd/mot were too far away I was unable to sustain the rythm of progress.

I also made at least 2 mistakes:
- I lost 2 turns with 10 pzd/mot without fuel east of Grozny. Thus I lost my little opportunity to take Baku. Some of my transports were left stupidly around Moscow...
- I overestimated the ability of my mountain units to cross the Caucasus mountains. Supply is unefficient though the mountains and my Jager lost their efficiency when they reached the russian line of defence.

I also had to let some pzd/mot around Saratov as Stelteck was very strong in this area.

On the other side, I cleared most of the black sea coast and took Stalingrad, Grozny, Rostov, Tambov, Tuapse. Stelteck did a good defence in the South but with rifle corps, he would have kept Tuapse without problem. As russian, I would have more fought to hold Stalingrad. And due to the loss of mapower centers, russian OOB is still under 7M men.

Now, I feel like an accountant. russian army is now too strong to be defeated so I have to prepare for the bad time to come. I will try to shorten my line of defence and be on the offensive as long as possible.

It's not yet the beginning of the end but surely the end of the beginning!



Was this a Bitter End Campaign?



Stelteck -> RE: Summer 1942 (9/28/2017 8:07:50 PM)

Yes it is a bitter end campaign.

The initial rush to grozny/baku was very dangerous because my troops where out of position west due to your brillant manoeuvre. I crushed the rail network 3 consecutive turns to rail all the transcaucasus front from west caucasus to east caucasus in emergency.

Relative to stalingrad, i agree but it is difficult to hold the town when you are threatened north of the town by multiple volga crossing. Maybe i should have stripped other fronts north to get more renforcement in the area.

Relative to rifle corps, i do not really like these units when they are rare and expensive, because of their total lack of mobility. And with them you are loosing defense in depth. For example, i did not merged rifle brigades too, nor airbone brigades, because i suppose that it is better and safer to have tons of cheap units to fight in the depth than having a thin line of strong, but not so strong relative to german, units.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Summer 1942 (9/28/2017 8:37:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck


Relative to rifle corps, i do not really like these units when they are rare and expensive, because of their total lack of mobility. And with them you are loosing defense in depth. For example, i did not merged rifle brigades too, nor airbone brigades, because i suppose that it is better and safer to have tons of cheap units to fight in the depth than having a thin line of strong, but not so strong relative to german, units.




I have the total opposite view of the Rifle Corps. In actuality I value the Rifle Corps over top of everything thing else the Soviets have in 42. These are your grunts that can start giving Germany a bloody nose and a well placed road block that will stop the Germans cold if you wanted. These are must haves in my opinion but that is just my 2 cents.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Summer 1942 (9/28/2017 8:38:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck


Relative to rifle corps, i do not really like these units when they are rare and expensive, because of their total lack of mobility. And with them you are loosing defense in depth. For example, i did not merged rifle brigades too, nor airbone brigades, because i suppose that it is better and safer to have tons of cheap units to fight in the depth than having a thin line of strong, but not so strong relative to german, units.




I have the total opposite view of the Rifle Corps. In actuality I value the Rifle Corps over top of everything thing else the Soviets have in 42. These are your grunts that can start giving Germany a bloody nose and a well placed road block that will stop the Germans cold if you wanted. These are must haves in my opinion but that is just my 2 cents.


You would have probably held onto Stalingrad if you were defending north and south of Stalingrad with Rifle Corps along with Rifle Corps in Stalingrad.



Crackaces -> RE: October 1942 (9/29/2017 2:07:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces
This again changes with 1.11.0 and limiting supply from a single railhead. How much .. that had yet to be seen.


I think that's in WitE2, so the germans have over a year (?) of time to exploit the quantum railways in WitE1 :D


According to a thread German Supply the development team is going to limit How much supply is drawn from one railhead. Not the same supply mechanics as WITE 2.0 .. but some sort of limitation on the traditional panzerball ...planed for 1.11 .. also a plan to change the costs of a HQBU .. possibly making them prohibitive if not just a one or two time event per season.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: October 1942 (9/29/2017 2:46:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces
This again changes with 1.11.0 and limiting supply from a single railhead. How much .. that had yet to be seen.


I think that's in WitE2, so the germans have over a year (?) of time to exploit the quantum railways in WitE1 :D


According to a thread German Supply the development team is going to limit How much supply is drawn from one railhead. Not the same supply mechanics as WITE 2.0 .. but some sort of limitation on the traditional panzerball ...planed for 1.11 .. also a plan to change the costs of a HQBU .. possibly making them prohibitive if not just a one or two time event per season.

Where are you getting inside info :)



Crackaces -> RE: October 1942 (9/29/2017 3:05:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces
This again changes with 1.11.0 and limiting supply from a single railhead. How much .. that had yet to be seen.


I think that's in WitE2, so the germans have over a year (?) of time to exploit the quantum railways in WitE1 :D


According to a thread German Supply the development team is going to limit How much supply is drawn from one railhead. Not the same supply mechanics as WITE 2.0 .. but some sort of limitation on the traditional panzerball ...planed for 1.11 .. also a plan to change the costs of a HQBU .. possibly making them prohibitive if not just a one or two time event per season.

Where are you getting inside info :)


You are a part of the forums that generated the discussion! ;)

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4321332 (For supply) I am looking for the HBQU thread but as I remember support units will count toward the AP requirements so expected costs to double at least



Nix77 -> RE: October 1942 (9/29/2017 6:00:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces
According to a thread German Supply the development team is going to limit How much supply is drawn from one railhead. Not the same supply mechanics as WITE 2.0 .. but some sort of limitation on the traditional panzerball ...planed for 1.11 .. also a plan to change the costs of a HQBU .. possibly making them prohibitive if not just a one or two time event per season.


I can't see how that's possible since there's currently no mechanic in the game's logistics system to implement that?

Here's the list I got from Morvael:

quote:


Changes relevant to German logistics:
- Base Axis rail supply modifier changed by -10 until April 1942 (from -10/0 to -20/-10).
- HQBU cost increased, no longer based only on number of men, but also guns and AFVs - the "heavier" the unit, the more it costs to perform HQBU for that unit - expect tripled costs for Panzer Divisions, and doubled for Infantry Divisions.
- No HQBU for frozen HQs.
- German vehicle repair bonus changed by -5 (from 10/5 to 5/0).
- Fixed a bug where it was sometimes possible to perform HQBU with merged units when it shouldn’t be allowed (incorrect merge of “at start of turn” movement points - selecting lowest instead of highest value).



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: October 1942 (9/29/2017 12:50:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces
This again changes with 1.11.0 and limiting supply from a single railhead. How much .. that had yet to be seen.


I think that's in WitE2, so the germans have over a year (?) of time to exploit the quantum railways in WitE1 :D


According to a thread German Supply the development team is going to limit How much supply is drawn from one railhead. Not the same supply mechanics as WITE 2.0 .. but some sort of limitation on the traditional panzerball ...planed for 1.11 .. also a plan to change the costs of a HQBU .. possibly making them prohibitive if not just a one or two time event per season.

Where are you getting inside info :)


You are a part of the forums that generated the discussion! ;)

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4321332 (For supply) I am looking for the HBQU thread but as I remember support units will count toward the AP requirements so expected costs to double at least


Darn! I was hoping you had even further information besides what was in that thread :(



Crackaces -> RE: October 1942 (9/29/2017 6:19:46 PM)

Ok the list above and discussion was my basis for my statements. My understanding is that the WITW mechanics actually accounts for supply over a railhead and thus forces a secondary supply point. WITE 1.11 will simply cut the available supply and in effect the total number of units supplied since an alternative path will not be calculated? The secondary effects with unintended consequences remain to be seen for sure.



STEF78 -> November 1942 (9/30/2017 10:13:40 AM)

a short view of the evolution of the OOB.

German army s still of better quality (national morale 70 vs 50) but red army is growing week after week.

We are fighting 2/1 in infantry, aircraft, 2,5/1 in AFV and 3/1 in artillery. These ratios will worsen during the next weeks as long as russian army isn't on the offensive.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/3gXbGv3.jpg[/img]



STEF78 -> November 1942 (10/1/2017 2:25:42 PM)

Turn 74, 12th november 1942

Mud is over, time to deal with this winter. Intelligence reports that a major soviet offensive could occur around Stalingrad during the next weeks [:D]

Right now we are focused on cleaning the lower Volga.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/YsTWzh2.jpg[/img]



Stelteck -> RE: November 1942 (10/1/2017 6:07:40 PM)

Troops defending the lower volga are mostly young trainee with no experience [:(]



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