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ORIGINAL: joelmar

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ORIGINAL: Tyronec
Yes, was thinking 1 German, 1 Romanian and 1 Italian armies plus a Panzer Corps but should have a better idea of what the Soviets are going to defend with in a few turns.

Get all your mountain divisions in one German army, you will need each one of those in the Georgian mountains
Get your rumanian cavalry together.
Get most of your FBD's in Caucasus to go into the Georgian valleys through Sukhumi

panzers can be useful for a while, but they will soon become superfluous. Cavalry is good enough to flip hexes

Those are the keys

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HLYA:
1. Kill the rail west from Baku you don't need the MNT Divisions.

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ORIGINAL: joelmar

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HLYA:
1. Kill the rail west from Baku you don't need the MNT Divisions.

You mean going through Grozny, Makhachkala. Might be possible, seems a little hard for me against a good Soviet defense and I think you will need mountain divisions anyway, even more so if the Soviets have the foresight to bring all their own remaining mountain divisions in the area.

I'm not saying it's not possible, but it seems to me a tough choice, almost a gambit and one which is quite easy to counter at that. There are other possibilities.

BTW, why not mountain divisions in Caucasus, aren't mountains the best place for them to fight? And furthermore, they are not really a good match to standard infantry in non-mountain terrain.

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Tyronec has some hexes NW of Stalingrad that BrianG can flood across based on current snapshots. Along with some Regiments that can be pushed aside on the front line even behind major rivers. (Regiments will retreat over hold when attacked) If Tyronec isn't careful he could end up with a fiasco behind his Stalingrad troops like you had in the Caucasus because we all know BrianG loves to FLOOD in.

Stalingrad is always the key to the Caucasus. Just need to make sure the rail going South to the Caucasus is also cut at the same time behind Stalingrad, that is the first key. Once that is done the Germans just need to rush to Baku where the rail to the West Caucasus is cut as the 2nd key. Once that is done the rest of the West Caucasus will wilt on the vine as the Germans assualt Baku. With the current state of the Soviets, and what I see on the snapshots provided, I would say this has a very good chance of success with the forces involved barring any outlier if Tyronec pursues this. Based on what I see I give it a 91.5% chance of working at current snapshots. Will update my prediction when getting closer to Baku, BrianG could always throw in those outliers ;-P

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ORIGINAL: tyronec
Was thinking I would need to take Baku to make it worth the effort but as you point out, cut that rail line and the rest of the Caucasus falls.

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@HLYA

As for the mountain units in mountains of course they are the best units. Anyone not realizing that is an idiot. But why fight a battle at all in the mountains? Cut them off and let them wilt and the regular Rumanians/Germans can clean them up at their own pace afterwards.

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ORIGINAL: tyronec

Cut anywhere on this line and the forces to the West are without supplies. Taking them from the North or West could be hard work.

[image]local://upfiles/52296/CFABEBCB7B87498C94A957CAE6A514A1.jpg[/image]

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ORIGINAL: Telemecus

There is the option of the Armavir valley through the mountains. Only 3 mountain hexes to cross in the WitE map which can be crossed by mountain divisions in one turn if undefended. And that would leaving you putting the rail in ZOC near Tblisi. Or simply rushing mountain divisions along a wide front assuming the soviet side does not have enough units to defend. All seem better prospects to me than going to within 40 miles and not getting Baku itself? Apart from Georgia and the West Caucasus, and Baku itself, there is not a lot of manpower there. So you would be capturing a lot of semi-desert.

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ORIGINAL: tyronec

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Tyronec has some hexes NW of Stalingrad that BrianG can flood across based on current snapshots. Along with some Regiments that can be pushed aside on the front line even behind major rivers. (Regiments will retreat over hold when attacked) If Tyronec isn't careful he could end up with a fiasco behind his Stalingrad troops like you had in the Caucasus because we all know BrianG loves to FLOOD in.

Stalingrad is always the key to the Caucasus. Just need to make sure the rail going South to the Caucasus is also cut at the same time behind Stalingrad, that is the first key. Once that is done the Germans just need to rush to Baku where the rail to the West Caucasus is cut as the 2nd key. Once that is done the rest of the West Caucasus will wilt on the vine as the Germans assualt Baku. With the current state of the Soviets, and what I see on the snapshots provided, I would say this has a very good chance of success with the forces involved barring any outlier if Tyronec pursues this. Based on what I see I give it a 91.5% chance of working at current snapshots. Will update my prediction when getting closer to Baku, BrianG could always throw in those outliers ;-P

Am assuming you mean something like this ?
Is not going to happen this turn because the MUD extends 3 hexes South of the Don, but something to watch out for if I don't get those units cleared away.

Am surprised that you think I could get to Baku in reasonable time (during '42 ?), I count 68 rail hexes to Baku and there could be hold ups from Soviet resistance or partisans. Once you get to Grozny looks like 1-2 hexes a turn terrain. Was thinking I would need to take Baku to make it worth the effort but as you point out, cut that rail line and the rest of the Caucasus falls.
Maybe need more Allies to guard those long open flanks.

Already have most of the Mountain Infantry in the right place and will rail the rest down soon.

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ORIGINAL: joelmar

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@HLYA

As for the mountain units in mountains of course they are the best units. Anyone not realizing that is an idiot. But why fight a battle at all in the mountains? Cut them off and let them wilt and the regular Rumanians/Germans can clean them up at their own pace afterwards.

Honestly I'm not following you there... are you aware that Baku is a permanent supply source and that the rail you need to cut is the one going through the mountains towards Georgia? It might have changed in some patch since you last got there. Cutting the rail between Grozny and Astrakhan won't help, it's the Baku-Tbilissi line that you must get.

Bottom line, no unit in Georgia will wilt if that's not done. And you really need a strong force of mountain divisions to get there.

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ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

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ORIGINAL: sillyflower

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ORIGINAL: tyronec

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As weak as the Soviets are you might be able to get away with the Italians/Romanians/Hungarians and some german infantry pushing them into the mountains.

Yes, was thinking 1 German, 1 Romanian and 1 Italian armies plus a Panzer Corps but should have a better idea of what the Soviets are going to defend with in a few turns.

As you know, I went for the 'Caucasus 1st then S'grad' approach.The main difficulty I had taking the Caucasus was not the defences per se, but a combo of Brian's skillful insertions (mainly using weak kamikaze tank xxxs) to cut the supply lines and he seemed to get lucky with partisans which so often cut the lines he could not otherwise reach.

I agree with Chaos that Brian that Brian is unlikely to have the troops to stop a strong thrust but you would need to be able to manage the problems better than I did until the later stages of my O. However, S'grad first will probably make it easier for you in the Caucasus as it looks like you will have time for both.

Tyronec has some hexes NW of Stalingrad that BrianG can flood across based on current snapshots. Along with some Regiments that can be pushed aside on the front line even behind major rivers. (Regiments will retreat over hold when attacked) If Tyronec isn't careful he could end up with a fiasco behind his Stalingrad troops like you had in the Caucasus because we all know BrianG loves to FLOOD in.

Stalingrad is always the key to the Caucasus. Just need to make sure the rail going South to the Caucasus is also cut at the same time behind Stalingrad, that is the first key. Once that is done the Germans just need to rush to Baku where the rail to the West Caucasus is cut as the 2nd key.

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ORIGINAL: sillyflower

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ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

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ORIGINAL: sillyflower

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ORIGINAL: tyronec

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As weak as the Soviets are you might be able to get away with the Italians/Romanians/Hungarians and some german infantry pushing them into the mountains.

Yes, was thinking 1 German, 1 Romanian and 1 Italian armies plus a Panzer Corps but should have a better idea of what the Soviets are going to defend with in a few turns.

As you know, I went for the 'Caucasus 1st then S'grad' approach.The main difficulty I had taking the Caucasus was not the defences per se, but a combo of Brian's skillful insertions (mainly using weak kamikaze tank xxxs) to cut the supply lines and he seemed to get lucky with partisans which so often cut the lines he could not otherwise reach.

I agree with Chaos that Brian that Brian is unlikely to have the troops to stop a strong thrust but you would need to be able to manage the problems better than I did until the later stages of my O. However, S'grad first will probably make it easier for you in the Caucasus as it looks like you will have time for both.

Tyronec has some hexes NW of Stalingrad that BrianG can flood across based on current snapshots. Along with some Regiments that can be pushed aside on the front line even behind major rivers. (Regiments will retreat over hold when attacked) If Tyronec isn't careful he could end up with a fiasco behind his Stalingrad troops like you had in the Caucasus because we all know BrianG loves to FLOOD in.

Stalingrad is always the key to the Caucasus. Just need to make sure the rail going South to the Caucasus is also cut at the same time behind Stalingrad, that is the first key. Once that is done the Germans just need to rush to Baku where the rail to the West Caucasus is cut as the 2nd key.

Oh dear, HLYA. Was my effort so bad to qualify as a fiasco[&:]?. I would only have put it as high as a temporary shambles[;)] because my O succeeded in time to head north and get the remaining 260VPs to get my win. (The game was alt VC but Brian subsequently persuaded me to carry on anyway).

I also went for Krasnodar and Novorossiysk for 3 reasons:

1 Preventing attacks on the rail to Baku from there

2 Getting a supply line from the port helped with supplies

3 It encouraged Brian to keep most of his forces in that area, rather than defending the road to Baku.

The distance to Baku is no obstacle with 2 FBDs, and a 3rd if you want to take get supplies from N'port. 10 turns will get the rail-head well under 20 MPs to Baku. Even if Mr T fails to take Baku itself, there will still be a lot of dead soviet units, Baku itself can be quarantined easily, even if Astrakhan is not taken. The axis front line will be a lot shorter with more troops for other offensives in the summer/autumn.

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ORIGINAL:HLYA

The German has to have ballz, like what you had, and take gambits like this. The prize at the end is HUGE if this can be pulled off. I have seen on average a "minimum" of 25+ divisions surrender when this is done. Normally much much more. Players have to realize 42 is about meat grinding with capture of cities a close second. The Baku strike has both along with the thrill of a rollercoaster ride.

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ORIGINAL: joelmar

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ORIGINAL:HLYA

The German has to have ballz, like what you had, and take gambits like this. The prize at the end is HUGE if this can be pulled off. I have seen on average a "minimum" of 25+ divisions surrender when this is done. Normally much much more. Players have to realize 42 is about meat grinding with capture of cities a close second. The Baku strike has both along with the thrill of a rollercoaster ride.

Gambits usually have huge gains but you have to accept huge risks too. And the German ballz can grow only as far as the Soviet lets them grow... or may end up being cut clean at the base too. But to each his own [:D]

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HLYA
Interesting. Personally I have faith in Tyronecs ability in WITE never to have his ballz cut off at the base. Tyronec is more than capable of seeing a threat when they are present and would never fall into that trap. As for letting the Germans grow big ballz.... Well I can only say the Soviets are in no position not to let that happen. Let the growth continue!

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ORIGINAL: joelmar

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HLYA
Interesting. Personally I have faith in Tyronecs ability in WITE never to have his ballz cut off at the base. Tyronec is more than capable of seeing a threat when they are present and would never fall into that trap. As for letting the Germans grow big ballz.... Well I can only say the Soviets are in no position not to let that happen. Let the growth continue!

I wasn't talking about someone in particular :-) More general game philosophy. IMO one can take a gambit when the situation calls for it, when he has a huge advantage or is in a desperate situation. Ok, the image of the balls cut clean was a bit extreme, but what I meant is that an operation that needs sizable assets and gets no result is a loss in my mind. So a gambit to me is not only when you may get your balls cut, but also when you might make an effort and reap no reward.

But I agree Tyronec is quite capable of handling the situation. I also agree that he seems to clearly have the initiative in this game and is in position to keep it for a long while yet. So the gambit you propose may work for him. In fact, I'll be quite interested to see how it goes if he tries it.

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ORIGINAL: Telemecus

I think it is a bad idea to make comparisons with old versions precisely because the rail supply modifier penalty was so drastically increased. So whereas in old versions of the game Baku was at least a regular possibility, now it has ceased to be. Examples are the games of Stef78 where he could take Baku in old versions, but just found his supply disappearing at the Terek river after the change in the rail supply modifier.

Remember Baku is further in rail repair than the Volga and with absolutely no chance of loops to protect from partisan supply with less manpower to capture. So the question is why would you choose Baku over the Volga? Shortening lines might be one answer. I would rate taking more manpower as a bigger gain.

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ORIGINAL: sillyflower
As a new returnee, I don't yet have a handle on the changes, so I defer to you on the supply point. I will have to read Stef's AARs.

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ORIGINAL: sillyflower
In case I was misunderstood, I was not trying to argue that it would be wrong not to take out the Caucasus, but that it was probably the better choice. With the changes, I have to defer to others about where the balance lies.

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Although it has been lost in the old posts it might be worth looking back on one of the old posts here 138 http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4807559 and in particular the map it refers to in the library of WitE resources containing clusters of manpower production in green. Or even see "To Baku or not to Baku?" in post 1148 here http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4637964 . The point for me is not to consider Baku or the Caucasus in isolation but relative to the benefits and costs of action elsewhere. And I have yet to see a reason given why the Caucasus would be relatively better than them.

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ORIGINAL: tyronec

MUD in the North and South again, not had luck with the weather in May/June with just one CLEAR in the North.
Having said that it is difficult for the Soviets to defend against and they have conceded a lot of ground in case of good weather and a big pocket, so am getting terrain for free.

Soviets abandon the Don and Stalingrad falls, clearing my rail line. They have a lot of units East of Stalingrad, could be just Rifle Brigades and low TOE Cavalry.

Get to the Mountains in the South. I thought about advancing to the Kuma river but can only reach it with a couple of Mot. divisions and have no idea how strong the Soviet units are.