RE: T58 (Full Version)

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joelmar -> RE: T58 (6/10/2020 6:19:03 PM)

Almost there to cut the rail in Georgia :-) At least it's ZOC locked. All depends on what Brian has in that blob of units to the west, but that battle is looking to be turning into a draw.

For supplies, we have most German transports dedicated for this push in my game, else it's hopeless.

It's a very fluid situation around Makha... sad that those 2 mtn divisions south of Grozny are not at the Sulak river instead of the motorized. That would have meant immediate danger for his strong position south-west of Makha. It will be difficult as you say, but they should at least be able to close the pocket in the mountains.




tyronec -> T59 (6/12/2020 7:19:07 AM)

After Recon.

Soviets have largely stopped attacking AGN, maybe continuing below Moscow next turn. They did just 5k for 5k last turn instead of the usual 10k+ each.

Finns. Will see if I can pocket something or at least ZOC lock.

AGN. Am looking to pull back the Luftwaffe ground troops and use them for garrison duty so I can release some more allies and use up some of that surplus manpower.

Center. Pocket held this time, happy days ! Time to rethink my strategy in the Center. There are 10 turns of Summer left, my objective has to be to keep advancing somewhere to take manpower centers and continue to create pockets.

A - Continue to bludgeon forwards towards Syzran. There are some heavy stacks to shift here and even if I get through the first line it is all level 1 or better forts behind. Plus after advancing a few hexes there is rough terrain on the left and the river guarding the right so it will be hard to widen any penetration.
B - Try and pocket these lead Soviet units. Might just be possible.
C - Try and pocket this exposed huddle. But there may be nothing much there, they could all be shell units. There is not much benefit in advancing further East as there is no population and supplies are reducing.
D - Switch the attack to here. Can probably grab a lot of hexes this turn and then it gives the possibility of attacking NW across the Oka before it is well fortified or NE where there is open terrain. Supplies will be a little better than A or B.
E - Switch further West and look at clearing the Soviets from the bulge below Moscow. The problem with this is the Oka is well fortified and my Panzers are too far away to do much this turn. I think I can discount this for now, it is too passive and the Soviets have too long to react.

If I go for D or E will likely need to leave at least a Panzer Corps behind on RESERVE to protect 11th Army from all those Guard units and Tank Corps. That is the disadvantage of swinging West, where I am now is very poor defensive terrain.

Caucasus. My mountain unit held out which is great. Will try and push on to cut the rail line properly. Will leave the Romanian Mountain units where they are just to keep causing attrition. Surprised the Soviets are not pulling back from West of Sukhumi, maybe they need to cover the retreat of more units.

Will continue to squeeze the Soviets in the mountains NW of Makha.
10 hexes to Baku and 10 turns of Summer, the race is on.

OOBs are much the same as they were on T53, both sides down 100k. Guess if I can keep as close as that as possible till the end of the year should set me up well for '43.




[image]local://upfiles/52296/8988113AF8AA43059C3B88DB0CFC6642.jpg[/image]



chaos45 -> RE: T59 (6/12/2020 8:06:00 AM)

You really need to secure Penza and the good defensive terrain there if you plan to hold forward in 1943...otherwise the soviets will have you in the open ground when they start to counterattack. Also penza has some manpower to continue to bleed soviet replacements.

Also if you have the AP some rear defensive forts in the north/center would probably be a good idea...just keep them at super low ToE. At least it allows you to start building back up lines.



tyronec -> RE: T59 (6/12/2020 8:37:29 AM)

Would really like to get Panza and some of that terrain to the NE of it, however it is a Level 3 fort. Think I need to get behind it somehow, either a left hook or a right hook or both.
Have ample of APs so will look at that. At the moment have no intention of halting the offensive in '43 but will see how things go.



Telemecus -> RE: T59 (6/12/2020 10:13:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec
AGN. Am looking to pull back the Luftwaffe ground troops and use them for garrison duty so I can release some more allies and use up some of that surplus manpower.


One thought can you also pull back Finns to do garrison duty? I know it is difficult to see how you can pull Finns out of the line right now. But Finnish divisions can be split to regiments and garrison Leningrad, Talinn etc. This together with using LW troops or even the french/dutch/danish regiments would mean you could release a lot more southern allies from garrison duty. The Finns are also in manpower shortage presumably. The southern allies are not - and you will probably be swapping Finnish regiments for Rumanian divisions net. Also get the Italians out of garrisons if you have any there - they leave soon so their taking the attrition will not matter at all.

I do think Brian is way too heavily committed west of Sukhumi. Should get out of there now.



chaos45 -> RE: T59 (6/12/2020 10:58:20 AM)

I agree staying on the offensive is always the objective....the thing working against you is the improving quality of the soviet army and TOE upgrades start to make the Soviet tank corps much more effective in 1943...as well as mech corps if brian is building them.



tyronec -> RE: T59 (6/12/2020 5:57:45 PM)

I swing the attack to the left and advance 4 hexes. Can see now that if I had gone with the red arrow would have had a real breakthrough, but at least have got across the minor river.

Not many attacks in the Caucasus but am well set up for next turn with all the Panzers fuelled up.

[image]local://upfiles/52296/66D4260FD8EB44329C66A1F62CE39ECE.jpg[/image]



Telemecus -> RE: T59 (6/12/2020 6:02:57 PM)

Ignore me if I am being a pain with these requests! Can we see the fort levels? I am particularly interested in the Caspian coast but also interesting to see along the Volga and Oka theatres.



tyronec -> RE: T59 (6/12/2020 7:57:21 PM)

No problem, will post when I get it back.



chaos45 -> RE: T59 (6/12/2020 8:56:16 PM)

I don't really understand what Brian is trying to accomplish in the south....his defense looks like a complete disaster.

In the center your armor shift presents the soviets with an opportunity to counterattack, his lines are thin though, I think he has to many troops in the mountains it would seem.

I would also say I don't understand his guard divisions way up north...those should have all been replaced over time with junk rifle divisions to just hold the line until he stabilized the south.



tyronec -> RE: T59 (6/12/2020 10:47:58 PM)

quote:

In the center your armor shift presents the soviets with an opportunity to counterattack

Will be interesting to see if he counter attacks East of Penza or shifts his main force to the defence West of Panza. I don't think he has enough to do both in strength.
Having said that there are all those Tank Corps waiting to spring into action. Am just not sure how much damage he can do with them.



joelmar -> RE: T59 (6/13/2020 1:48:41 PM)

quote:

@chaos
I don't really understand what Brian is trying to accomplish in the south


Me neither. With all his experience, he must know better... Probably some experiment to try counter attacks from the flanks that backfired on him and now he's caught?



tyronec -> T60 (6/14/2020 8:28:41 AM)

After Recon.

Soviets resume the attack in the North. The two listed combats are ominous, one inflicting double the rate of casualties and the second winning at attack odds of 1:2. I think the VVS are causing a lot of the damage.
Soviets have a lot of good troops up here, I can't really afford to move anything away.

There is a big mass below Moscow, nothing from them this turn.

In the center they did some counter attacks North of Saratov but didn't persist. Have moved troops to block my incursion NE but the way to the North or NW both look open. If I can get across the Oka here will be able to swing across towards Moscow and bypass their heavy entrenchments on the river line. However it is also tempting to head North and grab some of that open terrain. NE looks best, the Soviets will be less able to shift troops to cover that and now may be the best chance to cross the river.

East of Saratov operation 'use up my Allies reserves of manpower' begins. Will counter attack the Soviet advance as much as I can.

Caucasus. Soviets still hanging around West of Sukhumi. If I understand it right it is best not to advance to the sea as that would put them into port supply, so will just sit and wait.
The push towards Baku begins. Soviets just have 6 airbases in the area and by shifting more fighters down I achieved air superiority last turn. They are still weak so have the edge in the air.

I paid for that in the Center and for the first turn in a while the Soviets got some effective air base bombing in.

[image]local://upfiles/52296/6515F08E7D674041AF7CB5D929D44B41.jpg[/image]



Telemecus -> RE: T60 (6/14/2020 9:03:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec
Soviets still hanging around West of Sukhumi. If I understand it right it is best not to advance to the sea as that would put them into port supply, so will just sit and wait.


Why would this be a problem? It would take time for the ports to repair anyway.



tyronec -> RE: T60 (6/14/2020 9:57:08 AM)

As I understand it if my Cav. advanced and took the rail hex then the units around Tuapse would be in port supply, which is better than what they are getting now. I think all those units in poor supply, and the ones up in the mountains are losing about 20k a turn during the Soviet logistics phase.

Likewise if I got through to the coast West of Sukhumi and didn't isolate Tuapse (am not sure if those hexes are empty) then the units NW of Sukhumi could draw supply from Tuapse.

It was probably a mistake to take the hexes between Tuapse and Novorossiysk a couple of turns back.

What I really need to do is get to the Southern map edge and then they have all had it.

[image]local://upfiles/52296/67BA3D4062C24244AB701586D53583AB.jpg[/image]



mktours -> RE: T60 (6/14/2020 12:58:27 PM)

It looks like there might be a golden opportunity to create a huge pocket around Penza. The right wing pincer goes in this order: 6 inf Ds easily dislodge the (5=28)hex, the panzer Ds drive through that hex, attack the retreat troops and capture the 2 NW rough hexes, before Inf Ds and PzDs attack and rout the (8=35) hex (better use 7-9 divs to attack it to make sure success), then dislodge the (6=25)hex, once Axis control the 2 rough hexes behind the line, the entire Penza soviet troops would be doomed. The left wing pincer looks easy, the sequence should be doing the right wing pincer first, to make sure it has enough troops, besides, once axis clear a 3 hexes gap, the follow Pzs could drive through and enjoy a free ride, then do left wing pincer.

Another point should be use enough troops to defend the right wing from Soviet counter attack, so right wing should get as much troops as possible and should be done first.

Would be a huge disaster for soviet side. It looks like you are intentionally going for this pocket in your T59 deployment, Brian G didn’t alert to your plan and play into your way.



tyronec -> RE: T60 (6/14/2020 1:35:32 PM)

quote:

It looks like there might be a golden opportunity to create a huge pocket around Penza. The right wing pincer goes in this order: 6 inf Ds easily dislodge the (5=28)hex, the panzer Ds drive through that hex, attack the retreat troops and capture the 2 NW rough hexes, before Inf Ds and PzDs attack and rout the (8=35) hex (better use 7-9 divs to attack it to make sure success), then dislodge the (6=25)hex, once Axis control the 2 rough hexes behind the line, the entire Penza soviet troops would be doomed. The left wing pincer looks easy, the sequence should be doing the right wing pincer first, to make sure it has enough troops, besides, once axis clear a 3 hexes gap, the follow Pzs could drive through and enjoy a free ride, then do left wing pincer.

Am not strong enough to take out those three stacks and gain any further ground. I might get the 5=28 but one or both of those rough hexes likely has an infantry unit that the Panzers might not be able to shift. Last turn I got held up for 3 attacks by a 12 stack behind a river. My combat strength looks higher than it actually is, the reason is the VVS have control over that area of the map. The Soviets have full GS for every combat, after the battering the Luftwaffe took last turn they are not even fit to do any bombing in the area and GS has been out of the question in '42 except for the occasional attack where I know the hex is largely VVS free.

However as you say there is a threat against Penza and I should continue to work around it from both flanks.



joelmar -> RE: T60 (6/14/2020 1:49:08 PM)

Baku might be a lost cause. Have you considered bringing back the panzers in center? I know a few turns lost, but wouldn't they be more useful there from now on?



mktours -> RE: T60 (6/14/2020 2:03:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

quote:

It looks like there might be a golden opportunity to create a huge pocket around Penza. The right wing pincer goes in this order: 6 inf Ds easily dislodge the (5=28)hex, the panzer Ds drive through that hex, attack the retreat troops and capture the 2 NW rough hexes, before Inf Ds and PzDs attack and rout the (8=35) hex (better use 7-9 divs to attack it to make sure success), then dislodge the (6=25)hex, once Axis control the 2 rough hexes behind the line, the entire Penza soviet troops would be doomed. The left wing pincer looks easy, the sequence should be doing the right wing pincer first, to make sure it has enough troops, besides, once axis clear a 3 hexes gap, the follow Pzs could drive through and enjoy a free ride, then do left wing pincer.

Am not strong enough to take out those three stacks and gain any further ground. I might get the 5=28 but one or both of those rough hexes likely has an infantry unit that the Panzers might not be able to shift. Last turn I got held up for 3 attacks by a 12 stack behind a river. My combat strength looks higher than it actually is, the reason is the VVS have control over that area of the map. The Soviets have full GS for every combat, after the battering the Luftwaffe took last turn they are not even fit to do any bombing in the area and GS has been out of the question in '42 except for the occasional attack where I know the hex is largely VVS free.

However as you say there is a threat against Penza and I should continue to work around it from both flanks.

I believe the 2 NW rough hex is lightly defended, once you dislodge the (5=28), there is not difficult for your PzDs to run through that hex, attack the retreat troops and capture these 2 rough hexes, I think that just capture these 2 hexes will be a victory for your side this turn, soviet troops is at least locked and can't escape. It looks like you have more than enough troops to be directed into the right wing, the break through in the right wing is the key, the left wing doesn't have to succeed, and it deoesn't have to seal the pocket this turn, if just lock down the soviet troops, then would be enough. soviet is strategically wrong here, the point is don't let them escape. I would choose to focus on the right wing and use as much troops as possible there.
but it is your game and would be your choice, I just comment for fun and I hope you don't mind.



tyronec -> RE: T60 (6/14/2020 5:53:31 PM)

quote:

I believe the 2 NW rough hex is lightly defended, once you dislodge the (5=28), there is not difficult for your PzDs to run through that hex, attack the retreat troops and capture these 2 rough hexes, I think that just capture these 2 hexes will be a victory for your side this turn, soviet troops is at least locked and can't escape.

Well we will never know because I wasn't going to risk it. You are welcome to comment, I won't take offence.

quote:

Baku might be a lost cause.

There is still hope, am doing more damage down here than with the main battle.

Finns make the pocket they should have done last turn if I had not clicked the wrong unit.

AGN is stabilised, but have lost a good fortification.

The Center. Soviets had enough units in the right places to stop me getting across the Oka. Manage a reasonable pocket that I hope is secure. Sooner or later they are going to break through somewhere and send tank Corps rampaging around my rear areas but they have not tried yet. Am surprised as that was very much the way Brian played against Sillyflower.

The Hungarians do a fighting retreat.

Caucasus. Bomb the VVS again, costs me a lot of LBs and Fatigue but means am free to do air supply.
Mountain troops fail in their critical attack so limited progress towards Tiblisi, but they are doing the job of pinning down significant forces in the area.
Win the two battles against the big Soviet stacks thanks to Model and Manstein. On the coast advance two hexes but fail in three attacks against the 4=11 stack that is in light woods. Would have been good to take that hex as it would have seriously messed up the Soviets reforming their lines.

[image]local://upfiles/52296/9278B405394A496EA0AF3EF0CED4DF63.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: T60 (6/14/2020 6:18:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours


quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

quote:

It looks like there might be a golden opportunity to create a huge pocket around Penza. The right wing pincer goes in this order: 6 inf Ds easily dislodge the (5=28)hex, the panzer Ds drive through that hex, attack the retreat troops and capture the 2 NW rough hexes, before Inf Ds and PzDs attack and rout the (8=35) hex (better use 7-9 divs to attack it to make sure success), then dislodge the (6=25)hex, once Axis control the 2 rough hexes behind the line, the entire Penza soviet troops would be doomed. The left wing pincer looks easy, the sequence should be doing the right wing pincer first, to make sure it has enough troops, besides, once axis clear a 3 hexes gap, the follow Pzs could drive through and enjoy a free ride, then do left wing pincer.

Am not strong enough to take out those three stacks and gain any further ground. I might get the 5=28 but one or both of those rough hexes likely has an infantry unit that the Panzers might not be able to shift. Last turn I got held up for 3 attacks by a 12 stack behind a river. My combat strength looks higher than it actually is, the reason is the VVS have control over that area of the map. The Soviets have full GS for every combat, after the battering the Luftwaffe took last turn they are not even fit to do any bombing in the area and GS has been out of the question in '42 except for the occasional attack where I know the hex is largely VVS free.

However as you say there is a threat against Penza and I should continue to work around it from both flanks.

I believe the 2 NW rough hex is lightly defended, once you dislodge the (5=28), there is not difficult for your PzDs to run through that hex, attack the retreat troops and capture these 2 rough hexes, I think that just capture these 2 hexes will be a victory for your side this turn, soviet troops is at least locked and can't escape. It looks like you have more than enough troops to be directed into the right wing, the break through in the right wing is the key, the left wing doesn't have to succeed, and it deoesn't have to seal the pocket this turn, if just lock down the soviet troops, then would be enough. soviet is strategically wrong here, the point is don't let them escape. I would choose to focus on the right wing and use as much troops as possible there.
but it is your game and would be your choice, I just comment for fun and I hope you don't mind.


MkTours always give good advice :)



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: T60 (6/14/2020 6:31:15 PM)

The 4=11 hex would have been nice but I would have attacked the 1=3 hex just to keep a fort from being built in it. Once the 3=33 hex is taken though it is normally game over for the Soviets down here. Especially since you have a good amount of turns left.

IMO the Soviets have way too many troops in the Caucasus that could have been better utilized up North. Barring any mass penetration by the Soviets up North the German are in excellent position up North and the South. Your pocket will hold up North based on the pictures shown. The Soviets are spent in that area.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/733E497CAE964EA9A49BD7FDAE585821.jpg[/image]



chaos45 -> RE: T60 (6/14/2020 8:33:30 PM)

You still have the initiative...Brian is on the back foot in both the center and south. I still don't understand his defense in the south....he is wasting a lot of men for really nothing.

I think he should defend Baku don't get me wrong but leaving all those units that far from supply lines is just silly....the attrition losses alone in trucks and men must be massive for almost no effect on the Germans.

All those men would have been much better used defending and fortifying them main pass to Baku like a month ago in game time. With the concentration of units he kept there is no way the Germans could have gotten through if he had retreated and just dug in...lots of good soviet units there. Put those GRC in lvl 2-3 forts with the cav in reserve behind them and the Germans would have never gotten through...now his defense is looking riskier each turn as hes just burning men like he doesn't need them.

At this point he has burnt more men than the manpower he is risking losing...….



mktours -> RE: T60 (6/15/2020 2:29:00 PM)

I think that you might miss a golden opportunity here. The (5=28)hex is 3 weak divisions, about 30000 men, 6 Ger infD plus tons of pioneer, would be 80000+, since it is a critical battle, it is worthwhile a good leader, and let 3 HQ participate to get more SU into combat, would be a sure win.

After dislodge the (5=28), put the (17-47)SS unit into that hex, it would have (47-10-15=22mp)left, the(6-40)pz regiment (40-7-17=16mp), the( 12-44) PzD will have (44-4-15=25mp left, the 2 (18-41)PzD will have (41-2-15=24mp)left, that is already 5 units,

Suppose we use 17+12+9CV=39CV, plus 6 InfD cross river, that is 9divisions to rout the (8=38),would be an sure overkill. I believer we could use the Pz regiment, then 2 Divison is spare

(17CV+12CV)/2=14CV enough to do a haste attack, before they participate in the deliberate attack against the (8=38). The 2 (18=41)PzD move on to attack the rough hex , that is at least one PzD could have 16Mp to deliberate attack against the rough hex adjacent to the (8=38), or 2 PzD do a haste attack against it, chance is that would be weak unit, otherwise soviet would put it at front. Would be an easy win.

After the (8=38)hex captured, it only need 9mp to cross the river, then the (44-46)stack of Pzs would go into that hex to have (46-19-9=18mp), plus 3 InfD cross the river, would surely overkill the (6=25)hex.

After that the (14-45)SS wii have (45-14-5=26mp) after reach the (8=38)hex, the (11-34)PzD, the (15-32)PzD will have 10Mp left after reach the (8=38)hex, they could go on to assist the capture of the second rough hex or occupy it.

The InfD needed to do cross river attack is 6+6+3=15, you have more than that in the region which could have at least 7mp to do the attack.



tyronec -> RE: T60 (6/15/2020 4:10:59 PM)

quote:

I think that you might miss a golden opportunity here.

You could be right, maybe take all those hexes in one turn. Maybe close the pocket with the left hook in the same turn, it depends on the combat results and what Soviet troops are in the second line.
Unfortunately with the server game you cannot try it again with a different strategy so we will never know, except maybe when the game is over and Brian can tell us what he had in reserve.



tyronec -> T61 (6/16/2020 6:20:28 AM)

Some good counter attacks by the Soviets, have finally begun to use their Tank Corps. There was always going to be a deep penetration somewhere when they were committed.
Break the Finnish pocket, will have to try and herd it back.
In the center break the main pocket with a 10 hex advance. It is not going to be easy to make that pocket secure again but may be able to persuade the lead Tank Corps to join it.
The Caucasus pocket holds but that rough hex wall at Derbent will be tough to break, I have maybe three turns before the two Guard Rifle Corps get back to support it.

[image]local://upfiles/52296/A28914DA8E7E4294BA40ABA60CAE2A70.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: T61 (6/17/2020 3:11:09 AM)

Did you get an unlucky route or retreat of the German infantry? Looks like one division just disintegrated or am I missing something?

[image]local://upfiles/53556/45C7086BC8AF453EBC01CA1E7540EFCE.jpg[/image]



corbon -> RE: T61 (6/17/2020 4:58:21 AM)

I suspect the 6-3 east of Pachelma now resides under the 5-0 due east of the Moks lettering.



tyronec -> RE: T61 (6/17/2020 5:42:08 AM)

quote:

Did you get an unlucky route or retreat of the German infantry?

corbon is correct, they are all still there. Just the strange retreat paths.
Still working on this turn, taking me longer than usual !



tyronec -> RE: T61 (6/17/2020 9:35:49 AM)

End of turn.

AGN is OK, my Finnish excursion was a flop and am retreating behind the river.

In the Center have herded a Tank Corps into the pocket at the cost of one Brigade routed out. A lot of routs this turn, just hope he doesn't have enough to overrun my air base cluster. If I hold out this turn then the Soviet counter attack will have been to my benefit, drawing a lot of Soviets into the open.

Hungarians managed to surround and rout a stack.

Caucasus. Went much better than expected, won the first two main battles and had a go at the third one not really expecting anything. After that stack went was able to keep on going. There is only one unit in Baku, presumably infantry. It helped that had shifted all the Stukas down last turn and the VVS is too weak here to do much.

[image]local://upfiles/52296/DDD29069B10F41DE9FC3147AA3569048.jpg[/image]



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