Allied Strategy- One or Two Pronged????? (Full Version)

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ctid98 -> Allied Strategy- One or Two Pronged????? (5/25/2004 6:41:11 PM)

Afternoon All,

As I sit here busy at work [;)] I find myself pondering the strategy I'll be adopting when I finally get my grubby little mitts on WitP!

Now there has been lots of discussion on how to play as the Japanese and I think I'd be correct in saying (and don't have a go if I'm not!!!) that you grab all you can in the first 6 months, barricade for the next 6 and make the Allies pay dearly for as long as possible there after, fair enough....

However, I've not seen much on how to play as the Allies, the consensus seems (and again I could be wrong) that you wait for Jan '43 when you should be getting more equipment and steam roller your way to Tokyo. As strategies go not the most revealing. [:D] What I'm after is what everybody thinks would be the best way of beating August '45.

Now history tells us the Allies used a two pronged strategy, (well three if you include India, four if you include China, and what the hell whilst I'm backing myself into a corner on my own argument, 5 if you eventually include the Russians! Did I forget anyone??? [8|]) one for the Army, the other for the Navy. For the time being lets stick with the two.

But is a two pronged strategy really needed??? I don't think so, you should be able to stock pile enough supplies to just use the Marines and Army units that would have been involved in a two pronged assault in an island hopping campaign whilst tying down the Japanese with other units elsewhere. Surely doing things this way you should easily be able to beat August. So, what do others think????

Hoping I'm not proved wrong.....



kaleun -> RE: Allied Strategy- One or Two Pronged????? (5/25/2004 6:53:39 PM)

I guess I'll look forward to a PBEM game with you to try it.
Should be interesting[;)]



Mr.Frag -> RE: Allied Strategy- One or Two Pronged????? (5/25/2004 7:00:23 PM)

India/Burma = Tug of War ... try and keep back door to China open so China gets supplies.

China = stall and annoy, nothing else you can really do.

Oz = hold out [:D]

USA = Win the war! [:)]

Russia = Steal VP from USA should they activate because they weak yankees could not win without us! [:D]

It is pretty simple really. There is only 1 absolutely key rule!

Apply *massive* overkill as Japanese troops will fight to the death therefore the combat odds must be so grossly in your favour that you do not waste your troops. This means proper recon and staging of each landing is an absolute must. Same rule from UV caries through. Once you start rolling forward, no back stepping allowed so do not kick off the start too soon.



Brady -> RE: Allied Strategy- One or Two Pronged????? (5/25/2004 7:21:16 PM)

"Russia = Steal VP from USA should they activate because they weak yankees could not win without us!"

Mr. Frag, forgive me if this has been answered before but I am still not 100% clear on this, do the Russians auto activate in Aug 45?



Mr.Frag -> RE: Allied Strategy- One or Two Pronged????? (5/25/2004 7:24:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

"Russia = Steal VP from USA should they activate because they weak yankees could not win without us!"

Mr. Frag, forgive me if this has been answered before but I am still not 100% clear on this, do the Russians auto activate in Aug 45?



Yes, they auto-activate. Your mission is to win *before* they activate to prove that their help was not needed [:D]



kaleun -> RE: Allied Strategy- One or Two Pronged????? (5/25/2004 7:50:11 PM)

quote:

Same rule from UV caries through. Once you start rolling forward, no back stepping allowed so do not kick off the start too soon.

Refresh my memory: What is this no backstepping allowed? Does it mean if an invasion of an unnamed atoll fails the war is lost for the allies or is there a VP bonus for the Japanese if they repel an invasion?
If there is ( a VP penalty) then this game is even better planned than I thought.
[&o]



sven6345789 -> RE: Allied Strategy- One or Two Pronged????? (5/25/2004 9:33:24 PM)

I guess he means that getting set back by the japanese does nake it difficult to keep up your time table. Also, a failed invasion will cost you valuable Combat troops you need. third, the japanese get VP's for the troops and ships you loose in a failed invasion. therefore, make sure nothing survives in a large radius around the base you are planning to land at. to make that sure, you need lots of carriers. These you get late 1943.



Mr.Frag -> RE: Allied Strategy- One or Two Pronged????? (5/25/2004 9:49:50 PM)

Failure costs you time, troops, ships, aircraft, etc.

Not an option. Don't do it until you can assure success. It takes far too long to prep troops.

There are 30 *major* units that come in to the Pacific area from the US/Oz/NZ. (many many others).

A failed invasion attempt could cost you 3 of these 30, which means you are back waiting for the next 3.



showboat1 -> RE: Allied Strategy- One or Two Pronged????? (5/25/2004 9:59:26 PM)

I usually spend all of Dec. 41, Jan 42, and Feb 42 in a full scale retreat to try and save anything and everything I can. Forting up Timor with as many units as possible has worked to slow down the Japanese advance and provide a base for some counter attacks. Another good move is to get as much as possible into Rangoon and try to hold out as long as possible. Preserve naval assets, especially the carriers, and use them to hold the line running form Port Moresby to Guadalcanal to Canton to Johnston to Midway. If you can reinforce and hold Wake it will give your carriers a chance to pick off convoys if you're willing to risk them out that far from LBA support. I usually try to mine the heck out of Wake and move more CD units in to make the IJN pay for any move against it. Once you're forted up good and tight, just hang on until the cavalry arrives in the form of reinforcements and new a/c types. The less you pull back, the shorter the road to Tokyo.



Mr.Frag -> RE: Allied Strategy- One or Two Pronged????? (5/25/2004 10:01:35 PM)

One extra very important thing to clearly understand:

When assaulting Atolls, you must be super prepped and have ever bonus under the sun in your favour.

The landing automatically kicks off a shock attack by your troops which will produce horrid losses if you did not:

(a) Pack your ships so troops come off really fast (50% troops/supplies is a good mix here)
(b) Get there at night so you have 2 phases worth of unload time before the shock attack kicks off
(c) Bring enough troops so that you completely overwhelm the defenders
(d) Bombard the hell out of the place for weeks (airfield/port attack over time)
(e) Maximize disruption of troops by killing off support/supply (airfield/port attacks over time)
(f) Multiple Ground attacks the turn of the attack to disrupt large troop formations *before* they pummel you.

All in all, failure is not an option as you *will* loose all your troops if it goes bad. Japanese troops do *not* surrender.



sven6345789 -> RE: Allied Strategy- One or Two Pronged????? (5/25/2004 10:04:44 PM)

i know this has been asked before but how long does "prepping" take?



Mr.Frag -> RE: Allied Strategy- One or Two Pronged????? (5/25/2004 10:11:30 PM)

Showboat is just pointed out some prime targets for Japan that need to be part of *their* plan [:D]

Wake *must* go before the Allies can put anything there. 200 odd combat factors here ensure it will take at least 2 divisions to remove you. (see landing post above)

Rangoon *must* die (personally all the way to Mandalay, as it makes sense to grab the whole rail network and cut off China).

PM *must* go very early, before Oz'rs can dump a division there. If they get one there, PM will hold.

Lunga/Tulagi *must* go quickly. They are not built at all and take a fair bit of time to come up to a useful level.

Japan is racing against the clock. They must get their bases in order before any of the major Allied units show up to fight back.



Nikademus -> RE: Allied Strategy- One or Two Pronged????? (5/25/2004 10:21:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sven6345789

i know this has been asked before but how long does "prepping" take?


You earn 1 point per day. So for maximum preperation against a target, it would require 100 days or about 3 months and some change.



mogami -> RE: Allied Strategy- One or Two Pronged????? (5/25/2004 10:38:31 PM)

Depends on leaders. I've seen units that gain more then 1 point per day.



Fallschirmjager -> RE: Allied Strategy- One or Two Pronged????? (5/25/2004 10:39:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

One extra very important thing to clearly understand:

When assaulting Atolls, you must be super prepped and have ever bonus under the sun in your favour.

The landing automatically kicks off a shock attack by your troops which will produce horrid losses if you did not:

(a) Pack your ships so troops come off really fast (50% troops/supplies is a good mix here)
(b) Get there at night so you have 2 phases worth of unload time before the shock attack kicks off
(c) Bring enough troops so that you completely overwhelm the defenders
(d) Bombard the hell out of the place for weeks (airfield/port attack over time)
(e) Maximize disruption of troops by killing off support/supply (airfield/port attacks over time)
(f) Multiple Ground attacks the turn of the attack to disrupt large troop formations *before* they pummel you.

All in all, failure is not an option as you *will* loose all your troops if it goes bad. Japanese troops do *not* surrender.


Japanese troops hardly ever engaged the enemy on the beach. How will you lose all your troops when the landing goes unoppossed?



TIMJOT -> RE: Allied Strategy- One or Two Pronged????? (5/25/2004 10:58:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Wake *must* go before the Allies can put anything there. 200 odd combat factors here ensure it will take at least 2 divisions to remove you. (see landing post above)



Why does Wake must go? Other than a recon base its kinda useless isnt it? It should be a size zero port with no possibility of ever being more than a one. Airbase size should probably top off at size 3 or smaller. A stageing base for a centpac offensive it is not. Personally I can think of some better uses for the Wake Invasion force on turn one, but then again not know how things work in the game I could be wrong.



mogami -> RE: Allied Strategy- One or Two Pronged????? (5/25/2004 11:00:04 PM)

While I agree Wake could never be much of a Japanese base it can (could) have been more then it was if the USA had felt like it.

The USA built French Frigate Shoals into a Naval air station with a airstrip longer then the Island was before they began. (They enlarged the island) building facilities beyond their normal size requires a lot of supply and a lot of engineers (and a lot of time)



Nikademus -> RE: Allied Strategy- One or Two Pronged????? (5/25/2004 11:02:08 PM)

Wake was, IIRC, a point of pride, same as with Kiska and Attu. None were critical to the path chosen towards Tokyo



Mr.Frag -> RE: Allied Strategy- One or Two Pronged????? (5/25/2004 11:25:26 PM)

Think of Wake as a middle finger raised at the Allies. It just *must* be taken back and they are likely to do stupid things trying. Troops busy there can not be bothering you elsewhere. It forms an early warning post and can also act as a refueling place for Japanese subs.



TIMJOT -> RE: Allied Strategy- One or Two Pronged????? (5/26/2004 12:06:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

While I agree Wake could never be much of a Japanese base it can (could) have been more then it was if the USA had felt like it.

The USA built French Frigate Shoals into a Naval air station with a airstrip longer then the Island was before they began. (They enlarged the island) building facilities beyond their normal size requires a lot of supply and a lot of engineers (and a lot of time)


I have to disagree with you somewhat Mogami. Wake had certain limitations that even massive US effort and know how wasnt going to change. First its lagoon was completely incased by wide and concrete hard coral reef and all but a small portion of the lagoon was completely fouled. It took USN over a year to blast a tiny channel just big enough for small skips. There was no leeward shelf or roads to provide and thus could never be used as a even a limited fleet anchorage. I really hope port size for Wake is no larger than 1, but realitically it should be a zero beach.

As for airbase, only one islet was above the 15ft "safe" level. I suppose given enough turf, supplies, engineers and time anything was possible, but realistically its airbase size should be limited in the game.

Its valuable as a seaplane base and possibley Sub base with tenders, but other than that its value is symbolic at best.



barbarrossa -> RE: Allied Strategy- One or Two Pronged????? (5/26/2004 12:18:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

One extra very important thing to clearly understand:

When assaulting Atolls, you must be super prepped and have ever bonus under the sun in your favour.

The landing automatically kicks off a shock attack by your troops which will produce horrid losses if you did not:

(a) Pack your ships so troops come off really fast (50% troops/supplies is a good mix here)
(b) Get there at night so you have 2 phases worth of unload time before the shock attack kicks off
(c) Bring enough troops so that you completely overwhelm the defenders
(d) Bombard the hell out of the place for weeks (airfield/port attack over time)
(e) Maximize disruption of troops by killing off support/supply (airfield/port attacks over time)
(f) Multiple Ground attacks the turn of the attack to disrupt large troop formations *before* they pummel you.

All in all, failure is not an option as you *will* loose all your troops if it goes bad. Japanese troops do *not* surrender.


Japanese troops hardly ever engaged the enemy on the beach. How will you lose all your troops when the landing goes unoppossed?


"Rommel believed in those favorite shibboleths of his oriental ally, to 'anihillate the enemy at the beachhead,' 'hurl him into the sea,'.... -"The Two Ocean Navy" pg.395, Morison.

[;)]



rhohltjr -> I found a good question. (5/26/2004 12:25:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: showboat1

I usually spend all of Dec. 41, Jan 42, and Feb 42 in a full scale retreat to try and save anything and everything I can. ...


So do I. In PacWar. I try to use Evacuation missions to pull troops out of harms way.
I already know this (WitP) evac process is political points related.

Can anyone(testers?) give any clue about any other details regarding evac missions?
For instance where/how does, this combination of political points, evac transports and troops
to be evacuated come together? Please elaborate. Evac transports just conjured up out of thin air by using those magic political points? Do you pre assign the transports to Evac like the routine convoy system at San Fran or Osaka?
[&:]



Mr.Frag -> RE: I found a good question. (5/26/2004 12:29:04 AM)

Ships carry troops. Planes carry troops.

There is no other way to move.

Changing the HQ to a non-restricted one so you are permitted to movedoes not replace the ship/air requirements.

Nothing comes from thin air. You either have a ship were the unit is or they don't leave. [:(]



jcjordan -> RE: Allied Strategy- One or Two Pronged????? (5/26/2004 12:45:38 AM)

Well my strategy from PACWAR was to stall the IJA & IJN as much as possible early on in China & India making a good long stand at Rangoon if possible. Then as the 14th Army comes in drive out the IJA through Malaya & then in to China. On the Dutch front, try to set a line at Timor so that I might still get air raids to Balikipapan using it as a spring board to retake Java & Borneo thereby constricting Oil from IJN. In Solomans, New Guinea & Australia, hold & keep open through Nouema using it as a springboard to retake Phillippines & Saipan. As far as the Central Pac, make what stand I can at Wake & Midway using it as a springboard to take the Marshall Islands & into Iwo Jima then into Japan itself.



byron13 -> RE: Allied Strategy- One or Two Pronged????? (5/26/2004 3:16:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
There are 30 *major* units that come in to the Pacific area from the US/Oz/NZ. (many many others).


Given this and what I understand (or think I understand) about reflagging split units), does it make any sense to break down a division on the Philippines and try to evacuate a small portion of it that can be rebuilt to full division-sized strength once the other portions of the division inevitably surrender/die? If this works, it would give you one or two more divisions later in the war. And what the heck: they're going to die anyway, and your cargo ships are evacuating the area anyway. (Or are all units in a fixed command so they cannot be transferred to another command at any time regardless of PPs?)

Of course, this is gamey . . .



mogami -> RE: Allied Strategy- One or Two Pronged????? (5/26/2004 3:27:47 AM)

Hi, Stick as many prongs as you can support into the Japanese. The more prongs the lighter the defense any one will face. The fewer prongs the more defense the Japanese can move in the path. There are at least 6 "Prongs" possible. And most of them have "Forks"


"If you come to a fork in the road,.... take it."



Mr.Frag -> RE: Allied Strategy- One or Two Pronged????? (5/26/2004 3:36:13 AM)

quote:

Of course, this is gamey . . .


Expensive, 5-6 days worth of hording points and the troops there are not anything to write home about compared to one of the 30 monsters like the 3rd USMC Division.

That same cost with buy most of your air units out of the area.



byron13 -> RE: Allied Strategy- One or Two Pronged????? (5/26/2004 3:43:18 AM)

It's really that expensive to get what I guess would be a regiment out, eh?

Hmmm. Okay. Thanks for your thoughts.



mogami -> RE: Allied Strategy- One or Two Pronged????? (5/26/2004 3:52:28 AM)

Hi, The problem is that to get a portion of a unit out of a HQ you have to pay for the entire unit. If I wanted to get the Marine Regt out Of PI and rebuild it later I would need to buy the entire unit and then load what I could onto a ship. (or move transport planes into area and begin flying it out)

Several points. The Aussie units in Malaya are not in a restricted HQ. You can save the unit (or portions of it) without spending PP. The Dutch have no units worth going through the trouble for.



ColFrost -> RE: Allied Strategy- One or Two Pronged????? (5/26/2004 6:53:38 AM)

I do hope that someone, anyone, has some grasp that it was unexceptable for the Allied forces to wait for 1943 for an offensive maneuver.

I know the game won't allow for this, but if the Allies had engaged in a sitzkreig and waited until all their carriers had Corsairs and Hellcats before beginning offensive action, not even the memory of Pearl Harbor would have prevented a negotiated settlement.[sm=00000924.gif]

This is of course my opinion, and I'll play people who think differently.

Personally, it'll make for a boring game.



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