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ORIGINAL: IronDuke

I wanted to bring to the attention of other forum readers following the current (largely pointless) debate about Charles Whiting that this book by D'Este, described by Von Rom (quite correctly) as

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If you are seeking to understand General George S. Patton, then this is the book to read.

actually quotes (without contradiction) from Mr Whiting's 1970 book "Patton". This book is not to be confused with the novel "Kill Patton" which was a work of fiction. For readers interested in which part of Mr Whiting's book it was that Mr D'Este felt incisive enough to quote, please refer to page 634 (in the Harper Collins 1996 paperback edition). This quote is referenced as note 23.

For those without access to this work, Mr Whiting's words (which Mr D'Este does not contradict but rather presents as evidence), are in bold in the following section quoted verbatim from pg 634 (Harper Collins 1996 paperback edition):

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Patton's achilles heel (which would be painfully evident later in Lorraine) was that rather than cut his losses, he would attempt to storm his way out of a bad situation in the name of prestige. One of his critics scornfully notes that "the third army's wild rampage through Brittany obscured one central fact - west was precisely the wrong direction...Patton's greatest deficiency as a tank commander was his tendancy to think as a traditional cavalry tactician and to care little what direction he was attacking in, so long as he was attacking." Another biographer has written that Patton was "at his best and most successful only where he could apply his brilliant looose rein cavalry tactics against an already confused and mostly mediocre enemy. This was to be the lesson the Brittany campaign."

I would also add that in his "select bibliography" to be found at the end of his work, Mr D'Este sees fit to list no fewer than four of Mr Whiting's books (for the record, none of them of the SS "pulp" fiction variety).

They are, Patton, Patton's last battle, Bounce the Rhine and 48 hours to Hammelburg.

If anyone needs help defending Mr Whiting, perhaps we can refer to Mr D'Este.

Regards,
IronDuke

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ORIGINAL: IronDuke

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ORIGINAL: Von Rom

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ORIGINAL: Kevinugly

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Heheh

And how far do you think German tanks were penetrating into Russia in 1941?

Patton's main problem was that before he reached Metz, his supplies WERE CUT OFF.

The bulk of those supplies went to Monty for Market Garden.

Patton burnt up his fuel supplies disobeying orders and heading into Brittany as I have already revealed above.

Heheh

You really need to read up on Patton's activities in Normandy.

Although I can understand your lack of knowlege on these matters if all you are reading is Whiting's books.

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Heheh

You really need to read up on Patton's activities in Normandy.

Although I can understand your lack of knowlege on these matters if all you are reading is Whiting's books.

I have grave doubts about how much you actually know about this battle. You say Kevinugly is wrong, but do not use facts to illustrate why he is wrong. In order to put the record straight, (and prove me wrong!) could you actually describe the actions of the third army from it's activation on 1st August (if memory serves). Nothing heavy, just a few words, nothing serious, just what units did Patton have and where did they go?

Regards,
IronDuke

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ORIGINAL: IronDuke

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ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico

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ORIGINAL: Frank
For Western - Allied leaders, he is a good one. For German leaders he was average IMHO.

I was never that impressed with the average German General when it came to leadership ability.

Interesting. I always have. The situations within the respective armies were different, but I always thought the superior training of the pre-war German Officer Corp, allied with greater attrition rates which meant more officers got the chance to command, meant generally they were a more competent bunch than anything the Allies possessed.

Would Any German commander have kept his post if roles had been reversed at Messina etc, or they had taken three months with naval and air supremacy to breakout from Normandy? Ultimately, since only success guaranteed continuing employment, better officers gravitated to the surface in the Wehrmacht.

Regards,
IronDuke

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Contrary to what a few disgruntled individuals may claim, millions of people still LOVE Patton and his achievements, in spite of the attempts of people such as yourself to try and discredit him and them.

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When I say everyone, I am referring to almost all the Allied leaders, many of the high ranking German officers, and a great many writers and historians.

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I keep re-posting what German officers say, because people keep asking what the opinions of Germans were of Patton.

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Many readers on these forums do not share your uncritical approach to writers.

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You have made it quite clear that your intent is to basically destroy any shred of evidence that points to Patton's abilities. That is NOT discussing the issue.

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If Patton was to say the sky is blue, you would no doubt claim that he was wearing sunglasses, that he was facing the sky near dusk, and that the rate of movement in Arc degrees, would make it appear that the sky was not blue, but was rather a DARK blue. And not just the colour blue, as Patton had first described.

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Your intent is solely to destroy Patton's reputation, no matter what you have to do, no matter how nitpicky you have to get, no matter what anyone writes, and no matter to what ridiculous extent you must go to, to do so.

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Contrary to what a few disgruntled individuals may claim, millions of people still LOVE Patton and his achievements, in spite of the attempts of people such as yourself to try and discredit him and them.

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Patton's achievements are still studied in military academies

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But Patton's achievemnts still stand, even after 50 years. .

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It is interesting that those who read and defend Whiting, are also the same people who attack Patton. I am sure Whiting would be pleased with the job he has done.

That Whiting would attack Patton in a so-called "military history" book on the one hand, and then as Kessler, glorify the Waffen SS (Patton's enemies) in cheap pulp novels on the other, should lead anyone to question Whiting's motivation and alterior motives.

As to D'Este having included some of Whiting's books in his Bibliography:

You are aware, are you not, that most major writers use researchers. These researchers in turn, look a wide variety of books and articles. Even if they just glance at a book, they are entitled to include that book in a bibliography, even if it is to find out what some British writers have to say on a subject.

Some writers who write about WW2 also include Hitler's Mein Kampf in their Bibliographies. Yet, what credibility do we give to this book?

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ORIGINAL: IronDuke

Disappointing. You fail to answer any of my challenges (which I will list again if you feel you can knock them down but I doubt you will pick up the challenge) and then indulge us with the supreme irony that you think I am here merely to rubbish Patton. You do not see that it is you who brook no argument about his greatness, even in the face of reasoned history backed by leading historians. Whenever presented with evidence you either ignore it (the analysis presented here of the breakout and Sicily), refuse to admit you are wrong (352 VG springs to mind) or reply by printing excerpts from Patton Uncovered which was roundly criticised by D'Este. I have already said several pro-Patton things, you can check the thread if you do not believe me. I just finished saying another regarding Market Garden. So much for my bias.

This is interesting

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Contrary to what a few disgruntled individuals may claim, millions of people still LOVE Patton and his achievements, in spite of the attempts of people such as yourself to try and discredit him and them.

because you used to claim it was

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When I say everyone, I am referring to almost all the Allied leaders, many of the high ranking German officers, and a great many writers and historians.

Having been challenged to name the historians (please say D'este and I can quote at length from that excellent book he wrote on Patton) you have chosen not to. I've named at least six. You claimed the Allied leaders, yet any perousal of D'Este will show that Bradley detested Patton, and Eisenhower distrusted him. As Kevinugly wrote, that is very odd. (Want me to provide the quotes to support this?) You said German officers, and have provided five quotes of varying quality, repeated three times. (Not fifteen Offciers, just five repeated three times). I've analysed some of the operations they were talking about, and you have ignored this, and instead given us more from Patton uncovered or repeated the quotes.

As for

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I keep re-posting what German officers say, because people keep asking what the opinions of Germans were of Patton.

On which page of this thread has this been asked?

You say...

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Many readers on these forums do not share your uncritical approach to writers.

...then you quote freely (and usually verbatim) from the Patton homepage, his museum, Patton uncovered and the Patton Society, without realising (or refusing to realise) that these have a vested interest in the Patton legend that serious historians do not have. You will find little or no criticism of your man on these sites. That is the very definition of bias.

You say

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You have made it quite clear that your intent is to basically destroy any shred of evidence that points to Patton's abilities. That is NOT discussing the issue.

Where did I say this? The simple truth is I haven't said it. Discussion is where two people with (if necessary) diametrically opposing views engage in conversation about the subject in hand. How can we debate or discuss this if I agree with you? Time and again I appeal to you to discuss specifics rather than just copy bits out of Patton fan sites. You have ignored me when asked to explain (in detail) why Patton could have closed the Falaise gap, or even why he should. I have quoted from three of the leading historians on this subject to illustrate my argument. You used Patton uncovered, a work discredited by Carlo D'Este.

I have asked you why you thought Patton's drive on Bastogne was particularly good. I haven't seen a response yet.

You did get into specifics about the 352 VG. several times, you claimed you had shown this was a division made up of veterans from other disbanded divisions. Not once did you cite a source. I showed that this division was in fact a very poor one with few if any veterans using Nafziger, MacDonald and Mitcham. You then told me who cares about the 352 before saying again (without sources) that you had demonstrated etc...This was sad because it did not look good.

You have (to your credit) touched briefly upon Metz and Hammelburg. My thanks, and I'll address those comments shortly.

As for:

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If Patton was to say the sky is blue, you would no doubt claim that he was wearing sunglasses, that he was facing the sky near dusk, and that the rate of movement in Arc degrees, would make it appear that the sky was not blue, but was rather a DARK blue. And not just the colour blue, as Patton had first described.

With respect, this isn't worthy of serious comment.

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Your intent is solely to destroy Patton's reputation, no matter what you have to do, no matter how nitpicky you have to get, no matter what anyone writes, and no matter to what ridiculous extent you must go to, to do so.

It is not nitpicky to examine the events that form the Patton legend. It is called history. You have quoted numerous innaccuracies from the quality of the 352 to the position of Patton's men at the so called battle of the Falaise gap. You have made clearly incorrect statements on Bradley's feelings towards Patton. You told Kevinugly he needed to read more about the Battle of Normandy after he pointed out Patton went into Brittany wasting gas after the breakout, yet this is clearly what happened.

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Contrary to what a few disgruntled individuals may claim, millions of people still LOVE Patton and his achievements, in spite of the attempts of people such as yourself to try and discredit him and them.

You have a nice line in adjectives. What on earth am I disgruntled about? My point (which I have illustrated with quotes from numerous serious historians) is that Patton's achievements have passed into legend, and that people are familiar with the legend, but not the achievements. I have said continually he could drive tanks hard, provided there was no serious opposition. Normandy and Siciliy clearly demonstrate this. What I have also said, is that if you look at those operations, whilst they look good on the surface (which is what millions of people have noticed) they are a little more mundane underneath. I have also pointed out that Patton's record outside of the legendary moments is quite ordinary.

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Patton's achievements are still studied in military academies

All Generals are, it doesn't mean they are good. Serious students investigate all military records looking for answers.

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But Patton's achievemnts still stand, even after 50 years. .

No, I don't think they do, not amongst serious students. Amongst serious students, opinions are more cautious. Patton is rightly praised for his qualities, but students also point to his numerous failings. D'Este listed many faults (shall I quote a few). You hail this book as the best on the subject, but deny much of what it says.

Onto Metz and Hammelburg....

Respect and regards,
IronDuke

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ORIGINAL: Von Rom

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ORIGINAL: IronDuke

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ORIGINAL: Von Rom

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ORIGINAL: Kevinugly

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Heheh

And how far do you think German tanks were penetrating into Russia in 1941?

Patton's main problem was that before he reached Metz, his supplies WERE CUT OFF.

The bulk of those supplies went to Monty for Market Garden.

Patton burnt up his fuel supplies disobeying orders and heading into Brittany as I have already revealed above.

Heheh

You really need to read up on Patton's activities in Normandy.

Although I can understand your lack of knowlege on these matters if all you are reading is Whiting's books.

quote:

Heheh

You really need to read up on Patton's activities in Normandy.

Although I can understand your lack of knowlege on these matters if all you are reading is Whiting's books.

I have grave doubts about how much you actually know about this battle. You say Kevinugly is wrong, but do not use facts to illustrate why he is wrong. In order to put the record straight, (and prove me wrong!) could you actually describe the actions of the third army from it's activation on 1st August (if memory serves). Nothing heavy, just a few words, nothing serious, just what units did Patton have and where did they go?

Regards,
IronDuke

Really. . .

Nothing like baiting me, eh?

I'll bet you can't wait. . .

I have posted a great deal in this thread about Patton. I would refer you the Logistics article on Patton. Have you or Kevinugly even glanced at it?

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ORIGINAL: IronDuke

Exellent, we are again onto specifics.

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It is interesting that those who read and defend Whiting, are also the same people who attack Patton. I am sure Whiting would be pleased with the job he has done.

That Whiting would attack Patton in a so-called "military history" book on the one hand, and then as Kessler, glorify the Waffen SS (Patton's enemies) in cheap pulp novels on the other, should lead anyone to question Whiting's motivation and alterior motives.

As to D'Este having included some of Whiting's books in his Bibliography:

You are aware, are you not, that most major writers use researchers. These researchers in turn, look a wide variety of books and articles. Even if they just glance at a book, they are entitled to include that book in a bibliography, even if it is to find out what some British writers have to say on a subject.

Some writers who write about WW2 also include Hitler's Mein Kampf in their Bibliographies. Yet, what credibility do we give to this book?

What did you think then of his quoting Whiting as evidence? We both agree D'Este is a major historian of a very high quality. He passed the quote into his record without comment. He must have agreed with it.

Regards,
IronDuke

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ORIGINAL: IronDuke

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ORIGINAL: Von Rom

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ORIGINAL: IronDuke

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ORIGINAL: Von Rom

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ORIGINAL: Kevinugly

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Heheh

And how far do you think German tanks were penetrating into Russia in 1941?

Patton's main problem was that before he reached Metz, his supplies WERE CUT OFF.

The bulk of those supplies went to Monty for Market Garden.

Patton burnt up his fuel supplies disobeying orders and heading into Brittany as I have already revealed above.

Heheh

You really need to read up on Patton's activities in Normandy.

Although I can understand your lack of knowlege on these matters if all you are reading is Whiting's books.

quote:

Heheh

You really need to read up on Patton's activities in Normandy.

Although I can understand your lack of knowlege on these matters if all you are reading is Whiting's books.

I have grave doubts about how much you actually know about this battle. You say Kevinugly is wrong, but do not use facts to illustrate why he is wrong. In order to put the record straight, (and prove me wrong!) could you actually describe the actions of the third army from it's activation on 1st August (if memory serves). Nothing heavy, just a few words, nothing serious, just what units did Patton have and where did they go?

Regards,
IronDuke

Really. . .

Nothing like baiting me, eh?

I'll bet you can't wait. . .

I have posted a great deal in this thread about Patton. I would refer you the Logistics article on Patton. Have you or Kevinugly even glanced at it?

I have, it's actually a very good article about Patton the logistician. I would not agree with one or two of it's conclusions, but it is detailed concerning 3rd Army logisitics. You may recall on page one of this thread (I think) I called Patton a great logistician, so I was ahead of you here. It doesn't actually say much about combat or the operational situation in Normandy, though. To be sure of this, after reading it, I copied it into a word document and used the word search facility to look for "Falaise" and "Argentan". Guess how many hits I got?

I'm not baiting. I just want to know what you know of this battle, so we can discuss it without having to trawl through thousands of other people's words. My apologies if I give the impression of baiting, I will try and soften my words.

Regards,
IronDuke

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My apologies if I give the impression of baiting, I will try and soften my words.

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ORIGINAL: Von Rom

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ORIGINAL: IronDuke

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ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico

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ORIGINAL: Frank
For Western - Allied leaders, he is a good one. For German leaders he was average IMHO.

I was never that impressed with the average German General when it came to leadership ability.

Interesting. I always have. The situations within the respective armies were different, but I always thought the superior training of the pre-war German Officer Corp, allied with greater attrition rates which meant more officers got the chance to command, meant generally they were a more competent bunch than anything the Allies possessed.

Would Any German commander have kept his post if roles had been reversed at Messina etc, or they had taken three months with naval and air supremacy to breakout from Normandy? Ultimately, since only success guaranteed continuing employment, better officers gravitated to the surface in the Wehrmacht.

Regards,
IronDuke

Here again, is another one your lop-sided opinions.

Patton can do no right no matter what he does.

However, everything German officers did is brilliant no matter the circumstances.

Let's take a look at the so-called "brilliant" BlitzKrieg of the early German years, shall we?

The Germans surprise-attacked the unprepared Poles, bombing poor defenceless Warsaw. The Poles attacked German tanks with cavalry. Quite the achievement [8|]

Next, came poor little neutral Belgium. A surprise attack forced its surrender - another brilliant military move.

Next on the agenda was poor, defenceless Denmark - yes quite the military victory.

Then there was Holland - the technique of bombing defenceless Rotterdam is still studied today. . .[8|]

Then of course, there was the surprise attack through the Ardennes at Sedan, when German tanks basically raced for the channel, hardly encountering any opposition. The Germans faced divided, inexperienced, and poorly led Allied forces.

And at Dunkirk, the Germans couldn't even capture all the defenceless Allied soldiers trapped on the beaches [8|]

Yes, yes, all brilliant.

Then of course, the Germans attacked Russia in a surprise attack, surrounding and defeating a poorly led rabble. All those encirclements meant that those German officers encountered very little opposition. And the opposition they did encounter, was carried out by troops with low morale, poor clothing and weapons, and with very poor leadership.

Yes, what stunning successes. . .

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Patton can do no right no matter what he does.

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The Germans surprise-attacked the unprepared Poles, bombing poor defenceless Warsaw. The Poles attacked German tanks with cavalry. Quite the achievement [8|]

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Next, came poor little neutral Belgium. A surprise attack forced its surrender - another brilliant military move.

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Then there was Holland - the technique of bombing defenceless Rotterdam is still studied today. . .[8|]

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Then of course, there was the surprise attack through the Ardennes at Sedan, when German tanks basically raced for the channel, hardly encountering any opposition. The Germans faced divided, inexperienced, and poorly led Allied forces.

And at Dunkirk, the Germans couldn't even capture all the defenceless Allied soldiers trapped on the beaches [8|]

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The Germans faced divided, inexperienced, and poorly led Allied forces.

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And at Dunkirk, the Germans couldn't even capture all the defenceless Allied soldiers trapped on the beaches [8|]

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Then of course, the Germans attacked Russia in a surprise attack, surrounding and defeating a poorly led rabble. All those encirclements meant that those German officers encountered very little opposition. And the opposition they did encounter, was carried out by troops with low morale, poor clothing and weapons, and with very poor leadership.

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ORIGINAL: IronDuke

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ORIGINAL: Von Rom

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ORIGINAL: IronDuke

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ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico

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ORIGINAL: Frank
For Western - Allied leaders, he is a good one. For German leaders he was average IMHO.

I was never that impressed with the average German General when it came to leadership ability.

Interesting. I always have. The situations within the respective armies were different, but I always thought the superior training of the pre-war German Officer Corp, allied with greater attrition rates which meant more officers got the chance to command, meant generally they were a more competent bunch than anything the Allies possessed.

Would Any German commander have kept his post if roles had been reversed at Messina etc, or they had taken three months with naval and air supremacy to breakout from Normandy? Ultimately, since only success guaranteed continuing employment, better officers gravitated to the surface in the Wehrmacht.

Regards,
IronDuke

Here again, is another one your lop-sided opinions.

Patton can do no right no matter what he does.

However, everything German officers did is brilliant no matter the circumstances.

Let's take a look at the so-called "brilliant" BlitzKrieg of the early German years, shall we?

The Germans surprise-attacked the unprepared Poles, bombing poor defenceless Warsaw. The Poles attacked German tanks with cavalry. Quite the achievement [8|]

Next, came poor little neutral Belgium. A surprise attack forced its surrender - another brilliant military move.

Next on the agenda was poor, defenceless Denmark - yes quite the military victory.

Then there was Holland - the technique of bombing defenceless Rotterdam is still studied today. . .[8|]

Then of course, there was the surprise attack through the Ardennes at Sedan, when German tanks basically raced for the channel, hardly encountering any opposition. The Germans faced divided, inexperienced, and poorly led Allied forces.

And at Dunkirk, the Germans couldn't even capture all the defenceless Allied soldiers trapped on the beaches [8|]

Yes, yes, all brilliant.

Then of course, the Germans attacked Russia in a surprise attack, surrounding and defeating a poorly led rabble. All those encirclements meant that those German officers encountered very little opposition. And the opposition they did encounter, was carried out by troops with low morale, poor clothing and weapons, and with very poor leadership.

Yes, what stunning successes. . .

You let yourself down here. Please point out where I said everything the Germans did was brilliant. I merely said they were generally better. [:-]

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Patton can do no right no matter what he does.

Did I actually mention Patton in this piece?

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The Germans surprise-attacked the unprepared Poles, bombing poor defenceless Warsaw. The Poles attacked German tanks with cavalry. Quite the achievement [8|]

Agreed, German losses were relatively light, German operational doctrine was better, the Poles chose to defend the entire country and were never strong enough where it mattered as a result. You overplay the surprise. The Germans had tactical surprise, but not strategic surprise.

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Next, came poor little neutral Belgium. A surprise attack forced its surrender - another brilliant military move.

Can you show me one person (apart from you judging from this) who were surprised the Germans attacked Belgium rather than go through the Maginot line?

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Then there was Holland - the technique of bombing defenceless Rotterdam is still studied today. . .[8|]

As are the Paratrooper assaults that secured several strategic bridges and fortresses here and in Belgium such as Eben Emael. Have you heard of these operations?

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Then of course, there was the surprise attack through the Ardennes at Sedan, when German tanks basically raced for the channel, hardly encountering any opposition. The Germans faced divided, inexperienced, and poorly led Allied forces.

And at Dunkirk, the Germans couldn't even capture all the defenceless Allied soldiers trapped on the beaches [8|]

Again, I don't think you understand the German attack in the west (it is a current topic of study of mine because of a scenario I'm helping design). The French knew the Germans were going to attack at some point, so why criticise the Germans when despite this they still managed to achieve complete operational surprise? Is this not good? I find it astonishing you are criticising someone for coming up with an operational plan that drew the enemy into exactly the position required for a devastating surprise attack.

You also don't seem to be familiar with the crossing operations at Sedan (or the other places nearby such as Dinant where the Germans got across the river). German tanks only crossed the river after German infantry had captured the far bank, this wasn't a tank battle. Casualty rates amongst some German assault units reached fifty per cent in this operation, it wasn't a walkover. Some of the German crossings around Sedan were thrown back at first, this was an exellent tactical performance.

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The Germans faced divided, inexperienced, and poorly led Allied forces.

They faced an equal number of sometimes divided, just as inexperienced (Remeber Poland only lasted two weeks) and poorly led (at most levels) men.

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And at Dunkirk, the Germans couldn't even capture all the defenceless Allied soldiers trapped on the beaches [8|]

Because they were ordered to stop by Hitler, who was afraid their flanks were becoming over exposed. Were you aware of this? When the Germans started to attempt to capture the Allied troops, Dunkirk was already under way. Coupled with tenacious defence, the operation didn't have enough time.

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Then of course, the Germans attacked Russia in a surprise attack, surrounding and defeating a poorly led rabble. All those encirclements meant that those German officers encountered very little opposition. And the opposition they did encounter, was carried out by troops with low morale, poor clothing and weapons, and with very poor leadership.

Do you know how many casualties the Germans suffered in the first six months of Barbarossa whilst brushing aside this very little opposition? Do you know anything about the opposition encountered by Guderian north of Smolensk (if memory serves) as one example? If you would like to open a separate thread to debate this aspect, we can do so there, without having to bore everyone else presently here. I don't think you really understand or are being fair to this campaign as you wouldn't talk of it in such terms if you did.

regards,
Ironduke

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You seem quite capable of forgeting the fact that Whiting writes cheap novels glorifying the SS, while trying to discredit Patton.

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You conveniently forget that many readers of his books claim faulty research and poor writing . . . [8|]

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So Whiting included something in some of the books he wrote that is worth using. At least I would hope so.

He is after all claiming to be a military historian. And D'Este's researchers may very well have been able to use something. Although, D'Este himself may not have actually seen the books in question.

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So?

Hitler's Mein Kampf is also quoted in books

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I looked at some of Whiting's "history" books and they are not for me, at least the ones I looked at. He injects gratuitous racial and ethinc slurs that have no place in serious books.

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Many other readers have problems with several of his other books.

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I have no doubt that he must have done some research in the history books he writes. But I simply do not have enough faith in him, to rely on him for solid historical facts.

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His books just seem to be aimed at a younger age bracket. There are much better books we can spend our money on.

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I would never buy one of his books.

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Ironduke, I am surprised that you did not give a better analysis.

Those small countries in the west were simply over-run. . .

All those soldiers that were sitting at Dunkirk - tsk, tsk. . .

And most of those poorly equipped Russian soldiers simply surrendered without a fight, when they were surrounded.

What wonderful victories. . .

Here's more:

Even with a 3:1 superiority in aircraft, Germany lost the Battle of Britain. To compensate, Hitler bombed defenceless British cities. . .

Brilliant achievement. . .

Then, when the Allies caught their balance, and levelled the playing field, the brilliant German officers and soldiers fell onto the defensive, and began retreating.

Yes, astounding tactics. . .

Those poor, inferior Russia soldiers re-grouped, and gone were the early and cheap victories. . .

When those veteran Russian Siberian Divisions attacked the German forces outside of Moscow in late 1941 and early 1942, the Germans were thrown back. . .

Let's discuss these brilliant German tactics, shall we?

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ORIGINAL: IronDuke

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You seem quite capable of forgeting the fact that Whiting writes cheap novels glorifying the SS, while trying to discredit Patton.

I don't think they are any cheaper than the norm. I have no idea whether they glorify the SS (which ones have you read which gave you this impression?). There is nothing wrong with trying to discredit Patton if you have problems with him.

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You conveniently forget that many readers of his books claim faulty research and poor writing . . . [8|]

Evidently not D'Este. You did quote some lay readers if memory serves, but I would take D'Este first, over something you or I had posted in amazon. We also can not judge their claims without knowing how knowledgeable they are.

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So Whiting included something in some of the books he wrote that is worth using. At least I would hope so.

He is after all claiming to be a military historian. And D'Este's researchers may very well have been able to use something. Although, D'Este himself may not have actually seen the books in question.

You seem to invent things and then take them to great lengths. You first say D'Este might have employed researchers, and now take it as fact and back your argument with it? I just checked D'Este (I own a copy) he does not credit anyone in his book which is the norm when people get help from others. Where did you get the notion about these researchers?

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So?

Hitler's Mein Kampf is also quoted in books

.

To illustrate what he thought, not because it is reasoned historical analysis.

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I looked at some of Whiting's "history" books and they are not for me, at least the ones I looked at. He injects gratuitous racial and ethinc slurs that have no place in serious books.

Which books, and what are the slurs?

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Many other readers have problems with several of his other books.

He sells many thousands. Clearly some readers also like him, his research, his conclusions etc.

quote:

I have no doubt that he must have done some research in the history books he writes. But I simply do not have enough faith in him, to rely on him for solid historical facts.

Which books have you read that lead you to this judgement. I have only read two, if we have both read them, then we can discuss him in more detail.

quote:

His books just seem to be aimed at a younger age bracket. There are much better books we can spend our money on.

[:D]

quote:

I would never buy one of his books.

Because he doesn't like Patton...?

Regards,
IronDuke

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

quote:


Ironduke, I am surprised that you did not give a better analysis.

Those small countries in the west were simply over-run. . .

All those soldiers that were sitting at Dunkirk - tsk, tsk. . .

And most of those poorly equipped Russian soldiers simply surrendered without a fight, when they were surrounded.

What wonderful victories. . .

Here's more:

Even with a 3:1 superiority in aircraft, Germany lost the Battle of Britain. To compensate, Hitler bombed defenceless British cities. . .

Brilliant achievement. . .

Then, when the Allies caught their balance, and levelled the playing field, the brilliant German officers and soldiers fell onto the defensive, and began retreating.

Yes, astounding tactics. . .

Those poor, inferior Russia soldiers re-grouped, and gone were the early and cheap victories. . .

When those veteran Russian Siberian Divisions attacked the German forces outside of Moscow in late 1941 and early 1942, the Germans were thrown back. . .

Let's discuss these brilliant German tactics, shall we?

I have to go, but wanted to post this as the starting point for tomorrow. I will return because the superficiality of most of this is somewhat disturbing. I would ask you clarify your point regarding Dunkirk, what does tsk tsk mean?

I love the poorly equipped Soviet soldiers surrendering line, if you could mention which of the German encirclements were like this it might help me zero in tomorrow, or are you saying they all were?

The remarks about the Battle of Britain are scary. I haven't seen the German decision to switch to area bombing described quite like that.

Have a good evening,
Regards,
IronDuke

quote:

Regarding Whiting:

If you are the lawyer both for the defence AND prosecution, this could be looked at as a possible conflict of interest.

Whiting criticizes Patton in one persona, and then writes novels glorifying the SS in another persona. If you cannot see any possible problems with this. . . [8|]

quote:

Researchers:

It is a well known fact that most major writers, Supreme Court Justices, and many, if not most, Professors at universities, employ the use of researchers to do all the leg work, gathering info, etc

This is not new. Didn't you know this?.

quote:

The fact that D'Este includes some of Whiting's books in his bibligraphy does not surprise me. Whiting has written enough books, and surely there must be some merit in them?

That does not necessarily mean that D'Este actually saw the books in question.

quote:

Yes, Whiting sells many books. I looked through a couple. They appear to be aimed at men between the ages of 15-25, especially his novels.

quote:

However, I am too old and have read far too much, to care to read his books, when there are far, far better books to read.

quote:

If people are happy reading Whiting, then all the power to them. At least they are learning something about WW2. Just don't be surprised if these same readers encounter information about WW2 that they have never heard about, or have a different version of.

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

quote:

Regarding Whiting:

If you are the lawyer both for the defence AND prosecution, this could be looked at as a possible conflict of interest.

Whiting criticizes Patton in one persona, and then writes novels glorifying the SS in another persona. If you cannot see any possible problems with this. . . [8|]

There is a conflict of interest!!!!! About what? How can you say that? A conflict of interest exists only if you are defending and prosecuting the same subject? Where on earth does this come from when he criticises Patton (one subject), and writes novels about the Waffen SS (another subject).

quote:

Researchers:

It is a well known fact that most major writers, Supreme Court Justices, and many, if not most, Professors at universities, employ the use of researchers to do all the leg work, gathering info, etc

This is not new. Didn't you know this?.

[:D] Well known to who'm? You keep saying this. Why are you conviently sidestepping my question (which in case you missed it, I'll add again.

"You first say D'Este might have employed researchers, and now take it as fact and back your argument with it? I just checked D'Este (I own a copy) he does not credit anyone in his book which is the norm when people get help from others. Where did you get the notion about these researchers?"

Or is D'Este a good historian but rude man who doesn't name those who aide him?

quote:

The fact that D'Este includes some of Whiting's books in his bibligraphy does not surprise me. Whiting has written enough books, and surely there must be some merit in them?

That does not necessarily mean that D'Este actually saw the books in question.

Except you've roundly dismissed all his work previously. Now you think there might be merit in some of them.

Also, have you thought this through? D'Este wrote the Patton book. Are you saying this distinguished historian quoted from a source (Whiting) he had never read? To quote from it, he must surely have understood the context of what Whiting was saying? The only way he could not have read this book is if you believe D'Este's own work was ghost written? How could he not have been familiar with Whiting's work to quote him? Also, historians writing books surely gravitate first to previous efforts on the same subject, as these have most relevance. Whiting's book was called Patton! How would D'Este not have wanted to read this??? [8|]

quote:

Yes, Whiting sells many books. I looked through a couple. They appear to be aimed at men between the ages of 15-25, especially his novels.

With respect, this is priceless.

quote:

However, I am too old and have read far too much, to care to read his books, when there are far, far better books to read.

With great respect, despite several promptings, this remains unverifyable as you are yet to name any save D'Este. I appeal again, which works (as opposed to websites) are your opinions of Patton based?

quote:

If people are happy reading Whiting, then all the power to them. At least they are learning something about WW2. Just don't be surprised if these same readers encounter information about WW2 that they have never heard about, or have a different version of.

We agree, as I would have said the same thing about the fansites.

Regards,
IronDuke

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

quote:

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ludovic Coval

Cullie,

quote:

Montgomery was the man needed in the Desert when he took command: solid, a good planner, respected by his men, and able to get more time and equipment from Churchill than anyone before. Could he have done the same thing in Russia… maybe or maybe not, but he did do it in North Africa.

Well I dont share your view as Monty being a good planner. Both for Caen and Arnhem, he seems to have badly underestimated German capabilities. For Caen, British operations turned to several mini-"Suprcharge" while Market-Garden saw Allied troops stalled without any options but frontal assault on well prepared German defenses (especially at Nijmegen). But finnally it is probably Monty main 'flaw' to be unable to use Patton like war conduct (in both operations). I always wondered how MG would have turned be US XV corps being in charge of exploitation instead of British XXX corps.

LC

You could be right, but it seemed to me his flaws lied in execution and flexibility. To compare, Rommel was much more willing to deviate from his plans when circumstances and planning didn’t agree, while Montgomery seem more determined to stay the course.

This is historical analysis. If you don't stop, I'll report you to the moderator [;)].

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke
I think MG might possibly have gone better with Patton, because it didn't require much thinking about. You give Patton one road, and say break through at all costs. You tell him not to disperse his effort, to allow the flanking formations to do their job, and to stick to the road at all costs. He might well have done better. He wasn't particularly sharp on the offensive against prepared defences, but he didn't need to be here, there was only one strategy and he would quite possibly have drove his boys harder than Horrocks. It's part of the Arnhem story that British tanks stopped, waiting for infantry, just a few undefended miles from Arnhem. I don't think Patton would have allowed that. I've always considered him a Corp Commander, and this mission might have suited him.

That said, it was still only one road, and as Horrocks said "Never try to fight your corp off one road" (quoted from memory so apologies if I've not got the wording precise).

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke
I think Monty was a very good planner (usually) but very unimaginative. Time and again he justs groups his forces and plans the set piece. What he knew how to do, he did alright, but his issue was he didn't know how to do all that much.

I think he was the right man in Africa until Alamein was won. He planned a meticulous battle of attrition knowing he had material advantage. He won it, then didn't have the drive or will to purse the AXIS forces properly. He then drew up against prepared defences and took more time preparing another set piece, only belatedly trying to flank.

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke
In Russia, I think he would have been lost. Without superior numbers, his innate caution would have paralysed him, I think. He might at a pinch have led an infantry army, but never a Panzergroup, and certainly not an Army group.

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

quote:

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ludovic Coval

Cullie,

quote:

Montgomery was the man needed in the Desert when he took command: solid, a good planner, respected by his men, and able to get more time and equipment from Churchill than anyone before. Could he have done the same thing in Russia… maybe or maybe not, but he did do it in North Africa.

Well I dont share your view as Monty being a good planner. Both for Caen and Arnhem, he seems to have badly underestimated German capabilities. For Caen, British operations turned to several mini-"Suprcharge" while Market-Garden saw Allied troops stalled without any options but frontal assault on well prepared German defenses (especially at Nijmegen). But finnally it is probably Monty main 'flaw' to be unable to use Patton like war conduct (in both operations). I always wondered how MG would have turned be US XV corps being in charge of exploitation instead of British XXX corps.

LC

You could be right, but it seemed to me his flaws lied in execution and flexibility. To compare, Rommel was much more willing to deviate from his plans when circumstances and planning didn’t agree, while Montgomery seem more determined to stay the course.

This is historical analysis. If you don't stop, I'll report you to the moderator [;)].

quote:

I do not disagree, yet I believe (perhaps incorrectly) that Montgomery’s slow purposeful style of battle was better suited to North Africa than the rather pointless blitz of Rommel. Sure those mad dashes that covered thousands of miles looked impressive on the map, but it ignored the realities of logistics in that area. Rommel knew supply was critical, yet repeatedly out run his supply to capture, which in reality was just desert, while depleting his forces. Montgomery would not overextend his forces and allow Rommel the chance to recapture the initiative. By his very nature would have none of that: his advance might be called slow, but it would be irreversible. Operation Torch might speed up the destruction of the Africa Corps, but with or without it General Montgomery was going to slowly grind the German Army into dust.

I feel Montgomery’s abilities and limitations were not well suited for Sicily or France.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

Ironduke:

D'Este and Whiting

I took a look at the Whiting books D'Este had listed in his Bibliography.

Of the four Whiting books listed in D'Este's Bibliograpy, D'Este uses only two of those books.

quote:

Sorry to disappoint you - but what D'Este uses from Whiting is basically worthless as far as any evidence or understanding of Patton goes

quote:

These two books by Whiting, Patton and Patton's Last Battle, are used for only three small and harmless quotes. Two of these small quotes are attributed to Patton and one quote describes Patton.

quote:

Patton's achilles heel (which would be painfully evident later in Lorraine) was that rather than cut his losses, he would attempt to storm his way out of a bad situation in the name of prestige. One of his critics scornfully notes that "the third army's wild rampage through Brittany obscured one central fact - west was precisely the wrong direction...Patton's greatest deficiency as a tank commander was his tendancy to think as a traditional cavalry tactician and to care little what direction he was attacking in, so long as he was attacking." Another biographer has written that Patton was "at his best and most successful only where he could apply his brilliant looose rein cavalry tactics against an already confused and mostly mediocre enemy. This was to be the lesson the Brittany campaign."

quote:

Patton's senior opponent, Gen Hermann Balck, the Commander in chief of Army Group G, was scornfully critical. Balck freely admitted that his troops were "motley and bady equipped," and ascribed their success in defending Metz "mainly to the bad and timid leadership of the Americans." It was the most scathing criticism ever levelled at Patton by one of his enemies.

quote:

Von Rom
One quote appears at the beginning, and two quotes appear near the end, of D'Este's book. They really don't add anything to our understanding of Patton. And they are so inconsequential, I don't know why D'Este even bothered to use these quotes.

quote:

If you cannot decern the possible conflict between what Whiting/Kessler is writing, then I will save my typing fingers the trouble from having to re-type another answer to you.

quote:

As to D'Este and researchers:

Most people are aware of the use of researchers. Didn't you know that? It is a very obvious thing.

This is NO big revelation. Even all your very own favourite historians more than likely use researchers to gather material.

Did you know that judges use law clerks to do most of their legal research?

And that lawyers often use articling students to do legal research for them?

And that professors often get graduate students to do a lot of their research and mark student papers?

quote:

Whether D'Este looked at Whiting's books or read the material, is for him to say.

quote:

I am only telling you what the COMMON practice is regarding the use of researchers.

quote:

When I talk about not wanting to buy Whiting's books, and that I prefer to read other books, I am not just referring to books about Patton. I am referring to history books in general.

If you like to read Whiting, then fine. If everyone on this forum likes to read Whiting's books, fine. I cannot stop you. Buy all of his books you want. Have a Whiting book reading class at the local school if you want.

I merely pointed out what I discovered about Whiting writing under other names, and the types of books he writes.

quote:

If people don't care, then fine - I have no power to stop you or anyone else from reading/buying his books. It's your money and it's your time.

Just don't be surprised if some things you read in his books, conflicts with what other "serious" historians write

quote:

I do not disagree, yet I believe (perhaps incorrectly) that Montgomery’s slow purposeful style of battle was better suited to North Africa than the rather pointless blitz of Rommel. Sure those mad dashes that covered thousands of miles looked impressive on the map, but it ignored the realities of logistics in that area. Rommel knew supply was critical, yet repeatedly out run his supply to capture, which in reality was just desert, while depleting his forces. Montgomery would not overextend his forces and allow Rommel the chance to recapture the initiative. By his very nature would have none of that: his advance might be called slow, but it would be irreversible. Operation Torch might speed up the destruction of the Africa Corps, but with or without it General Montgomery was going to slowly grind the German Army into dust.

I feel Montgomery’s abilities and limitations were not well suited for Sicily or France.

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke
In Russia, I think he would have been lost. Without superior numbers, his innate caution would have paralysed him, I think. He might at a pinch have led an infantry army, but never a Panzergroup, and certainly not an Army group.

quote:

Perhaps, but let me argue differently.

The German plan for operations inside the Soviet Union were poorly thought out and executed: you either go straight for the Soviet jugular (Moscow) forcing them to defend that object, thus destroying them or you plan on a long campaign. The Germans did neither and got crushed.

quote:

General Montgomery, if he had planed Barbarossa, would have planned on a multi-year campaign, massive supplies, slowed the advance to keep his troops supplied and from being exposed. A Leningrad/Smolensk/Kiev stop line to allow fortification and resupply for winter, would have preserved the integrity of the German forces and allowed a continuation of a broad front advance in 1942 to Moscow/Rostov… followed by entrenchment/resupply for the winter before continuing in 1943…. Etc.

quote:

Aha, so you do have a copy. No excuses for ignoring the bad things he has to say about your good General, then.

quote:

You don't disappoint me, because because firstly, you've been a little economical with the truth

quote:

I am not a suspicious man. This is just as well, as a suspicious man would suggest you were being a little economical with the truth, here, in order to support your point, hoping I had not actually read the book to contradict you. I don't think the moderators would let me get away with any other description for this.

quote:

I actually found 5 references

quote:

Since one of the ones you've missed I quoted myself earlier in this thread when I was raising the issue of Whiting being used by D'Este, you give the impression of debating without reading what the opposition are saying to you. This will make sustained and meaningful debate between us difficult. (For the record, Chapter 40, note 23, Page 634).

quote:

What is further interesting (and would strain even a mildly suspicious man to breaking point) is exactly which two quotes you've left out.

quote:

You can argue this falls into the small category, but I (and I would hope most forum readers) don't consider this harmless. Strange you did not see this one.

quote:

Patton's achilles heel (which would be painfully evident later in Lorraine) was that rather than cut his losses, he would attempt to storm his way out of a bad situation in the name of prestige. One of his critics scornfully notes that "the third army's wild rampage through Brittany obscured one central fact - west was precisely the wrong direction...Patton's greatest deficiency as a tank commander was his tendancy to think as a traditional cavalry tactician and to care little what direction he was attacking in, so long as he was attacking." Another biographer has written that Patton was "at his best and most successful only where he could apply his brilliant looose rein cavalry tactics against an already confused and mostly mediocre enemy. This was to be the lesson the Brittany campaign."

quote:

The second is also interesting. It is particularly strange you missed this one, since you have been collecting quotes from German Officers concerning our General Patton.

quote:

This is note 38, Ch 42 page 669. D'Este reproduces a quote he found in Whiting. I quote:

quote:

Patton's senior opponent, Gen Hermann Balck, the Commander in chief of Army Group G, was scornfully critical. Balck freely admitted that his troops were "motley and bady equipped," and ascribed their success in defending Metz "mainly to the bad and timid leadership of the Americans." It was the most scathing criticism ever levelled at Patton by one of his enemies.

quote:

First of all, this entire section you have quoted DOES NOT BELONG TO WHITING.

Specifically:

1) The first sentence: "Patton's achilles heel (which would be painfully evident later in Lorraine) was that rather than cut his losses, he would attempt to storm his way out of a bad situation in the name of prestige." This belongs to D'Este himself.

2) The second sentence: "One of his critics scornfully notes that "the third army's wild rampage through Brittany obscured one central fact - west was precisely the wrong direction...Patton's greatest deficiency as a tank commander was his tendancy to think as a traditional cavalry tactician and to care little what direction he was attacking in, so long as he was attacking."" This reference (#22)belongs to Carr, The American Rommel.

3) Finally, ONLY the LAST sentence belongs to Whiting: ". . .Patton was "at his best and most successful only where he could apply his brilliant looose rein cavalry tactics against an already confused and mostly mediocre enemy. This was to be the lesson the Brittany campaign."" This is reference (#23) from Patton.

So it would appear, my friend, that you, yourself have provided a misleading quote with which you have used to impinge my integrity and my character.

quote:

For those without access to this work, Mr Whiting's words (which Mr D'Este does not contradict but rather presents as evidence), are in bold in the following section quoted verbatim from pg 634 (Harper Collins 1996 paperback edition):

quote:

So it would appear, my friend, that you, yourself have provided a misleading quote with which you have used to impinge my integrity and my character.

quote:

The fact that D'Este used that quote, means that D'Este is well aware of the fact that Whiting is a critic and uses him as such.

quote:

Second, this shows D'Este's even-handednes by showing both the good and the bad about Patton.

quote:

Fourth, the quote from Balck mentions the poor leadership of "the Americans". It does not mention Patton by name. So we can only assume he was referring to Patton. I don't have Whiting's book in question.

quote:

It was the most scathing criticism ever levelled at Patton by one of his enemies.

quote:

Finally it also illustrates D'Este's even-handedness in his biography, showing both the good and bad about Patton.

It is unfortunate that the same can not be said for Whiting's writing about Patton.

quote:

Now that that is out of the way, I have a few words to say to you my friend:

I have been a member in good standing on this forum for over 4 years. In all that time, I have enjoyed the companionship and discussions with others on a variety of topics. Sometimes discussions became heated; sometimes they were harmonious; but always I enjoyed the discussions.

Even in this thread, when 4 or more people jumped into the discussion, leaving me all alone to defend myself against them, I tried my best to be honest with them. However, if people treated me flippantly or without respect, then I returned the same to them in kind.

In all the time I have been on this forum, I have sought to represent myself as a decent person, and I have tried my best to be as truthful as I could in discussing matters with others.

Anyone who has read the * Must Buy DVD * thread, I think, can confirm that I am a civil person.

However, in this one post alone you have, three or four times, implied that I am both dishonest and have intentionally falsified information.

I cannot tell you how disappointed I am in both your approach, your remarks, and in you.

To attempt to win a discussion by presenting only one side of the issue is one thing, but to impinge my character and integrity to do so (3 times), is going way beyond the limit.

Quite frankly, at this stage I really could care less about continuuing this discussion with you.

quote:

In this thread, I, and I alone, have attempted to represent and defend the memory of General George S. Patton, one of the most maligned, yet misunderstood men, of the past century. A man who is truly worthy of our respect and admiration.

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

Von Rom,

Firstly, I apologise for any remarks which offended you. I withdraw any remark which suggests you left the quotes out deliberately. I was overly sarcastic. I was merely frustrated that the two quotes you missed were ones most favourable to my cause, and that as a result of not seeing them, you mistakenly felt that Whiting had not been used by D'Este. Remeber, you used the poor number of quotes to illustrate how little D'Este felt of Whiting. However, I accept your explanation for the omission and apologise.

This however is what frustrates me:

quote:

First of all, this entire section you have quoted DOES NOT BELONG TO WHITING.

Specifically:

1) The first sentence: "Patton's achilles heel (which would be painfully evident later in Lorraine) was that rather than cut his losses, he would attempt to storm his way out of a bad situation in the name of prestige." This belongs to D'Este himself.

2) The second sentence: "One of his critics scornfully notes that "the third army's wild rampage through Brittany obscured one central fact - west was precisely the wrong direction...Patton's greatest deficiency as a tank commander was his tendancy to think as a traditional cavalry tactician and to care little what direction he was attacking in, so long as he was attacking."" This reference (#22)belongs to Carr, The American Rommel.

3) Finally, ONLY the LAST sentence belongs to Whiting: ". . .Patton was "at his best and most successful only where he could apply his brilliant looose rein cavalry tactics against an already confused and mostly mediocre enemy. This was to be the lesson the Brittany campaign."" This is reference (#23) from Patton.

So it would appear, my friend, that you, yourself have provided a misleading quote with which you have used to impinge my integrity and my character.

You are making a point criticising me without reading what I have said. If you note from the first time I wrote this, and again the second time I included this the final section was in bold, I make it clear which words are Whitings, I include the others to provide context and show D'Este was making a very general point here most forcefully. If I can quote from the first time I wrote this in this thread:

quote:

For those without access to this work, Mr Whiting's words (which Mr D'Este does not contradict but rather presents as evidence), are in bold in the following section quoted verbatim from pg 634 (Harper Collins 1996 paperback edition):

Therefore, do you retract your statement below?:

quote:

So it would appear, my friend, that you, yourself have provided a misleading quote with which you have used to impinge my integrity and my character.

As for:

quote:

The fact that D'Este used that quote, means that D'Este is well aware of the fact that Whiting is a critic and uses him as such.

It also shows he agreed with it.

quote:

Second, this shows D'Este's even-handednes by showing both the good and the bad about Patton.

I have admitted several good things about Patton. I've called him aggressive, I've called him more likely to succeed at Market Garden than Horrocks, I called him a good logistician. I've called him a driver of men.
Up until this point, I don't recall you admitting or accepting anything bad about Patton.

quote:

Fourth, the quote from Balck mentions the poor leadership of "the Americans". It does not mention Patton by name. So we can only assume he was referring to Patton. I don't have Whiting's book in question.

I don't accept this. D'Este evidently thought it was aimed at Patton, for (as I quoted) he goes onto say

quote:

It was the most scathing criticism ever levelled at Patton by one of his enemies.

Neither of us have read Whiting's book, only D'Este has, so he knew the context of the quote better than either of us and thought it aimed at Patton.

quote:

Finally it also illustrates D'Este's even-handedness in his biography, showing both the good and bad about Patton.

It is unfortunate that the same can not be said for Whiting's writing about Patton.

How can you say this when you admit to not having read Whiting's work? We've established D'Este has the good and the bad, why might Whiting not have done the same?

quote:

Now that that is out of the way, I have a few words to say to you my friend:

I have been a member in good standing on this forum for over 4 years. In all that time, I have enjoyed the companionship and discussions with others on a variety of topics. Sometimes discussions became heated; sometimes they were harmonious; but always I enjoyed the discussions.

Even in this thread, when 4 or more people jumped into the discussion, leaving me all alone to defend myself against them, I tried my best to be honest with them. However, if people treated me flippantly or without respect, then I returned the same to them in kind.

In all the time I have been on this forum, I have sought to represent myself as a decent person, and I have tried my best to be as truthful as I could in discussing matters with others.

Anyone who has read the * Must Buy DVD * thread, I think, can confirm that I am a civil person.

However, in this one post alone you have, three or four times, implied that I am both dishonest and have intentionally falsified information.

I cannot tell you how disappointed I am in both your approach, your remarks, and in you.

To attempt to win a discussion by presenting only one side of the issue is one thing, but to impinge my character and integrity to do so (3 times), is going way beyond the limit.

Quite frankly, at this stage I really could care less about continuuing this discussion with you.

I do not know you, and so you are right to point this out. I repeat, I withdraw the remarks highlighted above. Please accept they were borne out of a frustration of seeing you go through D'Este as you did, miss (genuinely, I accept) what I considered crucial points, and then post what I considered flawed research in criticism of my argument. It was uncharacteristic of me, I hope you accept my apology. I do not believe I have caused similiar offence in over nine pages of posting, so hope you accept it was a momentary aberration.

However, I feel I owe you honesty in return.

My frustration essentially relates to the way I have felt you have not answered my points in our debate. When I have felt you have been proven wrong (the now infamous 352 argument, position of units at Falaise) you have either continued to claim your position (without evidence, in the 352 argument you just continued to claim "I have shown") or suddenly decided it was not important accusing me of missing the bigger picture. I could quite easily list these points if you would like a final chance to answer them (I would freely answer any specific points you feel I have dodged). However, in these circumstances, where you concede nothing, however precarious your position, it just breeds frustration and cynicism on my part. However, I was wrong to allow that cynicism to spill over the way I did. I was also wrong to imply what I did.

Without this, I agree further debate is futile, as I do not think that any evidence, however good, will change your mind. If others have joined in against you, I believe it is because of reasons like this, I have tried throughout to analyse and present evidence. I do not believe that everyone who turned up to join in the thread was anti-Patton, their merely became it. This is merely my opinion, anyone else in this thread should make up their own minds.

I propose to finish this thread by posting (at some point in the next couple of days) a complete opinion of Patton (strengths and weaknesses). I will cite evidence for everything I write, and allow it to stand as my opinion on the matter. You will be surprised by some of what you read. If you choose to do the same, then anyone in the thread can look at both our posts, assess the analysis, consider the evidence, and make up their own mind.

If not, I hope this experience has not soured us and we can pick up a friendlier debate another time (perhaps over the German combat performance in the early war years which you challenged me over yesterday).

Regards,
IronDuke

quote:

You are making a point criticising me without reading what I have said. If you note from the first time I wrote this, and again the second time I included this the final section was in bold, I make it clear which words are Whitings, I include the others to provide context and show D'Este was making a very general point here most forcefully. If I can quote from the first time I wrote this in this thread:

quote:

It also shows he agreed with it.

quote:

I have admitted several good things about Patton. I've called him aggressive, I've called him more likely to succeed at Market Garden than Horrocks, I called him a good logistician. I've called him a driver of men.
Up until this point, I don't recall you admitting or accepting anything bad about Patton.

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How can you say this when you admit to not having read Whiting's work? We've established D'Este has the good and the bad, why might Whiting not have done the same?

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My frustration essentially relates to the way I have felt you have not answered my points in our debate. When I have felt you have been proven wrong (the now infamous 352 argument, position of units at Falaise) you have either continued to claim your position (without evidence, in the 352 argument you just continued to claim "I have shown") or suddenly decided it was not important accusing me of missing the bigger picture. I could quite easily list these points if you would like a final chance to answer them (I would freely answer any specific points you feel I have dodged). However, in these circumstances, where you concede nothing, however precarious your position, it just breeds frustration and cynicism on my part. However, I was wrong to allow that cynicism to spill over the way I did. I was also wrong to imply what I did.