RE: Aircraft Upgrades (Full Version)

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Tankerace -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/10/2004 9:34:17 AM)

That sounds like the best solution to me Ron. Question is, will it happen?



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/10/2004 9:39:43 AM)

Couldn't say.



2ndACR -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/10/2004 9:56:21 AM)

Okay guys, this is the reply I got from Joel Billings to a e-mail I sent to 2by3.

As you said, in a big game like this there are some compromises. I can't say what was the driving force on this decision, whether it was the time it would take to provide the interface, the unrealistic nature of allowing easy changes of planes in a non-historical manner, or if it was the desire to avoid the play balance implications of allowing an anything goes upgrade path. I remember that all three came into the equation at the time we were thinking about it. There were so many issues like this that we had to deal with, that I can't remember when or how the decision got made. It's possible that Mike Wood (the patch programmer) will at some point in the future change the system, but I would bet it's pretty low on the priority list given the work involved and the more important needs to fix obvious bugs and other items that come up. Mike and the Beta testers track the Matrix forums and if it's being discussed there, it's likely to come up at some point (if it hasn't already). Thanks for the feedback.

Joel Billings



Hard Sarge -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/10/2004 9:56:59 AM)

You know guys, the thing that gets me the most about this kind of post, is how almost everybody thinks, the whole idea, is the player wants to get only the uber planes into place

I have posted that my wish, is to be able to use the Demon, and get my Mohawks/Hawk 75's into action (before the last patch, my best Aussie unit was a Hawk 75 squadron (strange the 43 to 46 campaign, the 77 RAAF flys Hawks, the 42 to 46 campaign, they fly KittyHawks ????)

but back to the point, I think most here, just want to be able to use what is in stock, not just the best and uberest planes

which also side with the make the player reseach everything in line before getting to the last planes
(I mean, you have to reseach each Zero type, before getting the last Zero)

HARD_Sarge



Tankerace -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/10/2004 10:17:46 AM)

I completely Agree. I personally am fond of Hawk 75s (P-36s), and later in the war I would like the option to change my Helldivers to Dauntlesses (I hate Helldivers...so f***ing ugly). I honestly don't think anyone here wants the uber planes, because I believe that no one of that mentality would cough up 80 bucks to play the game.

I won't say for certain, but based on the reply 2ndACR got, I am willing to bet that now we are flogging a dead horse, and the system, at least for the forseeable future, will remain in place. Hopefully this isn't a game killer for anybody, as this is really a great game.

Too bad our requests have gone unheeded.



Top Cat -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/10/2004 12:16:25 PM)

Actually I don't want more flexibility on upgrades so I can have the best and badest planes.

I want upgrade flexibility so I don't need a calculator, spreadsheet and/or editor to figure out want I need to produce based on knowing what reinforements are going to be coming in the future.

Is just simpler if the reinforement squadrons took the planes that you were producing, like in real life.

Don't think the Japanese researched, say the Tojo because they knew there were Tojo pilots in the
pipeline. That'd be the tail wagging the dog.

More likely the pilots said we're getting creamed by the Americans, give us a better plane and we'll fly it.

So basically I want the flexibilty because it's simpler. I've noticed that a large number of the threads around here are people going "I don't know what planes to produce..." This is in large part because of the hard coded upgrade path.

Cheers
Top Cat

Cheers
Top Cat



Adnan Meshuggi -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/10/2004 1:49:17 PM)

Well, the problem is - if you play the japanese (or the allies, it really makes no difference) until mid/late43... achive a surplus of planes and economy cause YOU did better as historical (or worser - if i speak about the allies and me ) and a better plane would improve my situation, but i canīt use it even if i have it in the pool... that is a game stopper....

i just canīt understood why it is so important to hold the historical line here... we do not know how "they" had reacted in a different situation...

As the japanese you can change your input in economy... you can say what is the priority... (like hold on yamato and mushashi and shinano and also the shipyard points and give it to the air industry) but if you manage sucsessfully to improve your situation, you canīt do anything with em...

And also, for the allied side, the same stupid situation (honestly, here it is only important if you are worser as historically), maybe you have 200 spits but you damned hurricanes need the thunderboldII... sure, if you have enough hurricanes, this maybe smart (cause of fb to fb)... but if your hurricane pool is empty and you could have 2 squad with spits to defend yourself against the evil yellow enemies... you see, same situation (or with bombers... )

It hurt the allied side not so much as the japanese, but important is - you will be hurt late in the war and that means late in the game.

I think this is the huge problem.... you canīt fix it later on, only now at the beginning of the game

So many players want a matrix-solution (i suggested a playerconform house rules method -even if not offically certificated)

If "we" play only adopted campagins, the programmer maybe will accept our wishes....



Adnan Meshuggi -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/10/2004 2:09:41 PM)

Sorry - who want to cheat the game ? I think the guys who want to cheat are stupid idiots....

if the game allows the direct upgrade to hell, then this should be fixed. Untill a few days (autoreplacemt trick) i even did not know that you can upgrade from a to c without having b... so why not change this and then let em circle.... in the row.
So i can use nates if i want (to train) cause they will become worthless later on and instead start the production of the "next" plane on the time table...

sure, it should be "if you want d you have to develop b and c before....

perfectly would be a "if you want to research you have to improve the next plane, all other improvements do not work"...

so, nobody can develop the superplane in 1943 instead of 1945... and so everybody is forced to develop the next plane

But in the moment, i prefer the editor and a row... and at last 50 planes from all types in the pool (no autoupgrade with me) so i can use em at will.... oh, and i do not cheat to myself...

if we use houserules, why not also this way ?
Really, all hindsight in the game and it is NOT a historical correct game after turn one (or before ! if you use the option!)
so i want to use any plane i have at my will (as long as it is in the row (army/navy and bomber/fighter)...



Adnan Meshuggi -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/10/2004 2:21:11 PM)

Sorry - that is only your opinion.

for the japanese player, it is a game stopper after Spring 43 (if he did better as historically)
if he was good, he could use better planes, but this is forbidden (mostly by a strange automatic upgrade system...)

for the allies, i agree - here it is not so important.
But just imagine, you play the japanese, kicked your allied counterpart, could now stand against his bunch of better fighters by (advanced) own fighters but you have to sit down and let you be slaugtered... now tell me, is this fun ?

Do you think more than a few players would stay in the game ? I would love to fight it out - but not the "historical" way with a bad production system, but with the best i can use... and if i can be better as historically, i want to let the allies pay.
i still loose, but as the player i want to let him bleed.

This IS a game stopper if i did anything to bring me in this situation but canīt do a thing about it cause of "it is not historically"...

i allways said i dislike this idea for the allies too...
the game needs to be updated, this "bug" should be elliminated. Change the r&d (elliminate it if you want), but if i produce enough planes from one kind and i want to switch the planes, let me do so.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/10/2004 3:11:29 PM)

You know, even if the players were to Game the game and bring in the uber planes (not talking the Shinden), is that really that bad or going to upset the game balance that badly ?

don't know how much Alt and Climb really effects the game system, so will go with some basic stats

Ocscar Ib
speed 308
Mvr 35
Dr 23
guns 4

Ocsar II
329
34
24
6

Tojo
376 nice increase
32
28
12 not really a good trade, better speed and guns though

Tony
368
32
29
14 that may be the better plane

Frank Ia
392
35
30
14 ah, almost a weak Allied plane

George
363
36
30
16

unless these are coming out in 42, in numbers large enough to mass change units, still not a big deal

the Frank and George will tear up P40's and below, but HellCats, F4U4, 47 D's and 51's will still eat them up (main Allied fighters, still out Mrv, Dr and gun all of them)

and in my game (42 to 46 campaign, 9-25-42) I got enough Spit V squadrons in China (saveing some pool planes, or I could have a few more squadrons) to handle all of the China fighters if they went to Franks and Georges (the 23rd FG may not do as well as it is now, but it is eating up the Tony unit it is faceing)

and if I did run into a Unit that I couldn't handle in the air, shame on me, if I let it get into the air, if I can't moonscape his runways and hangers, oh well

so, I don't see where the great unbalancer is at

HARD_Sarge

Shinden, should be HARD coded to be a late model plane no matter how much reseach is applied



Tanaka -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/10/2004 9:08:56 PM)

More interesting questions about the upgrade paths that go along with this discussion:


Composition of airgroups on accelerated CVs


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Japanese CVs beginning with Taiho arrive having an airgroup composed of one daitai each of A6M5 Zekes, B6N Jills, and D4Y Judys. The normal availability dates for these types are 9/43, 12/43, and 11/43 respectively. It is possible however to accelerate construction of several of the Japanese CVs such that they arrive considerably in advance of these dates. What happens to these airgroups if they enter the game before there are planes available to fill them? I can imagine that they would show up empty. If that is the case, will they then fill out later as the appropriate aircraft become available? If a player should decide to accelerate construction of these ships, he should probably also put a corresponding effort into trying to accelerate availability of aircraft for their air groups.

Does anyone know the composition of the air groups for Chitose and Chiyoda if they are converted to CVLs? I would assume that when they become available following this conversion, they appear with their airgroups already embarked?

_____________________________

Captain Cruft
Matrix Veteran






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another symptom of the aircraft upgrade model.

I am guessing you can look in the database editor to see what airgroups the upgraded Chitose and Chiyoda have.


irrelevant
Matrix Hero



RE: Composition of airgroups on acc... (in reply to Captain Cruft)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:

I am guessing you can look in the database editor to see what airgroups the upgraded Chitose and Chiyoda have.

Yeah, I'll do that when I get home tonight if no one does the heavy lifting for me in the meantime. Seems like I always finish my morning commute with my head full of questions. Worst thing about working is it interferes with more important things like WitP.

_____________________________


Hard Sarge
Matrix Hero




RE: Composition of airgroups on acc... (in reply to Captain Cruft)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well on the Allied side, I know some of the CVE's come in with replacement Squadrons full of planes that are not being built yet (Hellcats/Helldiver)

(which also kind of stinks, as they jump from 24 to 50 planes, just about the time you are waiting to make a Wildcat squadron into Hellcats)



Reiryc -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/11/2004 12:32:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Okay guys, this is the reply I got from Joel Billings to a e-mail I sent to 2by3.

As you said, in a big game like this there are some compromises. I can't say what was the driving force on this decision, whether it was the time it would take to provide the interface, the unrealistic nature of allowing easy changes of planes in a non-historical manner, or if it was the desire to avoid the play balance implications of allowing an anything goes upgrade path. I remember that all three came into the equation at the time we were thinking about it. There were so many issues like this that we had to deal with, that I can't remember when or how the decision got made. It's possible that Mike Wood (the patch programmer) will at some point in the future change the system, but I would bet it's pretty low on the priority list given the work involved and the more important needs to fix obvious bugs and other items that come up. Mike and the Beta testers track the Matrix forums and if it's being discussed there, it's likely to come up at some point (if it hasn't already). Thanks for the feedback.

Joel Billings


Clearly we need to make it more of an issue and raise it's importance if we want something done about it.

I will be sending off an email shortly and recommend others do the same if they are interested in increasing the importance of this issue.



MadDawg -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/11/2004 12:52:03 AM)

Folks, could someone make a summary of just what the issues are at the moment [:)]?

Ive been following this thread but so many points have been raised and dismissed that I am lost as to the current concerns and possible solutions thereof.

Dawg



Reiryc -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/11/2004 12:56:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadDawg

Folks, could someone make a summary of just what the issues are at the moment [:)]?

Ive been following this thread but so many points have been raised and dismissed that I am lost as to the current concerns and possible solutions thereof.

Dawg


The base issue has always been...

If you have X number of aircraft that is better than an oscar 2, why not be able to upgrade to it. This is of course in the same line such as IJA fighter upgrades to a better IJA fighter.

R & D and all the other fluff was thrown in to the mix but isn't really a part of the original and main problem brought up.



MadDawg -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/11/2004 1:00:44 AM)

Fair enough, Ive seen this problem myself.

So a solution to this would probably also allow Kamikazi groups to use mothballed aircraft, as they did historically? Currently you are foced to either locate an airgroup somewhere with older aircraft and move it east or use your modern aircraft for such tasks.

Dawg



Sultanofsham -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/11/2004 1:12:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

[

The base issue has always been...

If you have X number of aircraft that is better than an oscar 2, why not be able to upgrade to it. This is of course in the same line such as IJA fighter upgrades to a better IJA fighter.

R & D and all the other fluff was thrown in to the mix but isn't really a part of the original and main problem brought up.


Also need to be able to downgrade a groups aircraft too. Not just for the Kamikazi groups but there will be points where drawing older aircraft from a pool would be more help than sitting around with a very under strength group.



steveh11Matrix -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/11/2004 11:49:44 AM)

It's enough of an issue to me that I'm delaying a decision on buying the game over it. Does that rate as important enough?

I want to play as the Japanese, see if I can do better than the original, and get the reward if I do. I also want to be able to make reasonable and justifiable decisions about aircraft deployment that aren't simply down to 'that's what the game allows me to do'.

Steve.



Adnan Meshuggi -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/11/2004 11:57:22 AM)

buy it... you could allways use the editor, make a upgradepath you like and you can play....
it is a gamestopper if you only want to play per pbem and try to play ONLY with people like mdiehl who will cry if you do not loose all carriers at midway or manage to drop a torpedo in the second row of bbs at pearl [:D]

so, buy it, train with the editor and kick some enemies rectums....

it is true, that this is a huge disadvantage, but you can manage it...
buy it...



steveh11Matrix -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/11/2004 12:05:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Adnan Meshuggi
[...]
it is true, that this is a huge disadvantage, but you can manage it...
buy it...
Why put myself through the slog when it's unnecessary? I'll play something else until it's resolved. At the moment it's SPWAW and/or NGC. If HOI2 comes out before a real fix to this problem I might buy that instead.

The point is that this is a really ugly way of straitjacketing a player. Back in the days of boardgames there were some pretty awful things done, but I can't recall any game that I enjoyed playing that had this kind of 'force' applied to a player. It makes things unnecessarily complex - If I have 20 aircraft sitting around, and need them deployed somewhere, why shouldn't I be allowed to do it?

Steve.



Adnan Meshuggi -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/11/2004 12:06:27 PM)

Hard Sage,

well, if you play as the allies, you propably have kicked jap asses....

if i play as the jap, i hope i kicked allied asses and this means that the pilots will be drawn from the bad side of the pool, too... so if my planes could help my (hopefully) experienced pilots to kick the allied ass harder, this is important.
Cause with nates i canīt hit anything even with elite pilots... and the jap player has here (correctly) a huge disadvantage

also, if you say it is not really an issue, why do matrix do not give us this feature offically ?

The shinden is surely something different, but also, if the japanese player manage to produce the plane in large numbers, why should it be forbidden to kick allied asses ?

Is this the problem ? That the jap side should only suffer after 43 ? indepentent from the game situation ? Again, they canīt win.

Also, even with a lot numbers as the allied, i want to use the planes i have at will.... this means if i have 300 Kittyhawks in the pool and my spits suffered heavily, i want to downgrade...

so, i do not see it from the fanboy perspective... but some (not you !) players here really want the jap side (their enemy) to suffer only and to not strike back after 43... they want to destroy the fun in the game, cause what good purpose do i have, playing the japanese, if everything i did should not improve the situation ? I agree that the automatic upgrade stuff sucks... cause if you have r&d you have to develop all planes in a row, not side by side... but this would not improve the situation for these special "players"... their picture is "jap sucks from 43 and everything in the game that does not show this results is wrong..."

but as i mentioned some times, just let us play user created scenarios, with houserules... if these ultra fanboys does not like what they see there, they should stay away... same is true if the people who critizise the actual way are only a small minoity.



2ndACR -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/11/2004 1:00:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: steveh11Matrix

It's enough of an issue to me that I'm delaying a decision on buying the game over it. Does that rate as important enough?

I want to play as the Japanese, see if I can do better than the original, and get the reward if I do. I also want to be able to make reasonable and justifiable decisions about aircraft deployment that aren't simply down to 'that's what the game allows me to do'.

Steve.


Do like me. Buy it and only play Lemurs' Scenario 26 mod in PBEM. I will play the others against the AI because the AI needs all the advantages it can get.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/11/2004 4:56:43 PM)

Hi Adnan
I think you may be misreading me

I want both sides to be able to use there upgrade/Pools

what I was trying to say, is I don't follow the idea that if the JP player can upgrade to Tonies, Tojos, Franks and Georges, it will unbalance the game

(if you change the JP plane to Frank Ia's and Georges in June/July 43, the Hellcats and F4U4's will be able to deal with them, the Spit V will be able to in 42, so I don't see it as a unbalancer)

{the Shidin is a different story, if it was a normal plane, I would say great, but that plane would of had a very large learning cycle, being a pusher and all, so I don't think it could just be thrown into the mix and tell the boys to go have fun)

HARD_Sarge

in my game, my question is, is the AI JP player, going to be able to keep up the losses (aug 42 to 46 camapaign) in two months he has lost 2400 planes

he might get the late war planes, but don't think he will be able to find anyone to fly them



steveh11Matrix -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/11/2004 5:03:20 PM)

Not the point, I don't want to have to go through unnecessary hoops.
I don't mind the ai (arrtificial stupidity?) having advantages, but making me go through artificial nonsense deployment wasn't what I had in mind! [:)]

If Matrix can't/won't change this, then perhaps an option to remove production & R&D altogether, and providing only replacements, but allowing free deployment, would be the way to go (within type & branch, I think those are fair restrictions).

Steve.



2ndACR -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/11/2004 5:12:31 PM)

There is no hoop to jump thru with Lemurs'. It is another scenario that gives you the freedom with upgrades that we want. It just is not "official".

I mess around with Scen 15 & 16 against the AI. The restricted upgrade paths will not hurt me against the AI.
For PBEM I only use Lemurs' until this issue is resolved either way. A human is just too cagey to mess with as the IJN player mid to late war.

The game is worth getting either way. Moucho worth it. It will be on my hard drive ALLLLOOOOOONNNNGGGGG Time.



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/11/2004 5:12:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Adnan Meshuggi

buy it... you could allways use the editor, make a upgradepath you like and you can play....
it is a gamestopper if you only want to play per pbem and try to play ONLY with people like mdiehl who will cry if you do not loose all carriers at midway or manage to drop a torpedo in the second row of bbs at pearl [:D]

so, buy it, train with the editor and kick some enemies rectums....

it is true, that this is a huge disadvantage, but you can manage it...
buy it...


Lemur's #26 is a nice band-aid on this problem. Good upgrade paths now for most everything. Doesn't answer the flexibility issues that can ONLY be answered, fully, by the game allowing "on-the-fly" upgrade path changes and downgrading. It may be the best we are going to get.....



steveh11Matrix -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/11/2004 6:27:02 PM)

It is my understanding - and I'm fully prepared to be corrected - that Lemur's mod doesn't allow free up-and down grades, it just (just!) opens things up and removes the worst cases. As such a partial solution, not a complete one.

I would have added the usual 'also it's not official' comment, but I've learned better. For example the C.O.R.E. mod for HOI is the best way of playing that game (IMHO anyway!). I don't suppose Matrix' own Steel Panthers changes can in any way be said to be 'official', can they? Certainly the scenarios can't. So unofficial or not, if Lemur's mod solves the problem, that'd be the answer.

Steve.



Banquet -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/11/2004 7:19:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: steveh11Matrix

It is my understanding - and I'm fully prepared to be corrected - that Lemur's mod doesn't allow free up-and down grades, it just (just!) opens things up and removes the worst cases. As such a partial solution, not a complete one.



That's correct.

For me, this issue isn't a game breaker. I'll still continue to play, and it'll still be an excellent game. It has certainly put me off playing the Japanese though, and this was what I was ultimately looking forward to doing.

A system of trying to match production to preset squadron replacements is just silly.

Please allow us to put whatever aircraft we have available into squadrons. By all means make it realistic with reduction in experience, or enforced training periods. Fix research so we can't cheat (although I'm convinced no one who's posted here had even thought of that as a motivation for requesting this!)

I don't want a complex system that ultimately I can only screw up but not use for any benefit, even if I have the means. At the moment Japan has 2 choices aircraft wise. They can do as badly as they did in the war, or they can do worse.



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/11/2004 8:21:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: steveh11Matrix

It is my understanding - and I'm fully prepared to be corrected - that Lemur's mod doesn't allow free up-and down grades, it just (just!) opens things up and removes the worst cases. As such a partial solution, not a complete one.

I would have added the usual 'also it's not official' comment, but I've learned better. For example the C.O.R.E. mod for HOI is the best way of playing that game (IMHO anyway!). I don't suppose Matrix' own Steel Panthers changes can in any way be said to be 'official', can they? Certainly the scenarios can't. So unofficial or not, if Lemur's mod solves the problem, that'd be the answer.

Steve.


You are correct. Lemur's scenario simply removes the dead-end upgrades that stop on junk. All planes now eventually upgrade to the uber-planes availaible at the end of the game. And some models have different upgrade paths within types by unit to attempt to add at least a little flexibility. The changes most seek, however, cannot be accomplished by an editor, but would require substantial code changes. Lemur's is about as good as it will get using just an editor.



Adnan Meshuggi -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/11/2004 8:40:52 PM)

Hi Sarge,

that is exactly what i want to say...

i allways said i want it for both sides too (and the downgrade too)... and if the japanese player can manage to kill as much allied planes as you did as the allied side against em, he is still locked on.

But how do you did it ? 2400 kills in 2 months...

oh, i think you have broken the jap aiīs neck...

for the shinden - if the plane is superior to the allied ones it should be possible that it can balance out some things... cause the japanese player who managed the counterstrike of the allied stream of weapons deserve the "ultimate" plane...

oh, i allways would play the allied side in such pbem... if i had time for such things in the moment... [:@] just work work work work.....
sorry i drift away..

now, maybe we can manage this up/downgrade for both sides, what do you think ?



Mr.Frag -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/11/2004 8:55:20 PM)

For those still debating this ... How are you dealing with training pilots?

This changing of aircraft produces the situation where 100% of your front line units would be in your good aircraft and 100% of your training groups would be in your crappy aircraft since you can switch them around anytime you want.



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